mu' chu' chabal tetlhwIj tIq: More words relating to weather, weather forecasting, and weather hazards: - Forecast (n/v), thunder (n/v), hail (n/v), cyclone/hurricane (n), tornado (n), blizzard (n or v), shelter (n/v), flood (n/v), tide (n), drown (v) - How to express a probability like "there is an X percent chance of rain tomorrow" - How to express speeds (like wind speeds) in the form of length units per time unit - How to discuss snow, rain, and other weather phenomena as nouns, as in "three inches of rain", "my car is covered in snow", or "a storm was heading for the city of Quin'lat". - A unit of length on the scale of inches or centimeters (n). Space (n), in the sense of unoccupied volume or area, as in "This room has lots of space!" or "How much space is there between us?" Time (n), taken as a whole as an abstract concept, that one may or may not have enough of, as in "Time flies" or "I don't have time for that." Moment/instant/point in time (n) There isn't a word for tear (n) since Klingons have no tear ducts, but how do they describe tears (and the ducts thereof) when talking about weepy Terrans? Kiss (v). I've seen this translated with {chop}, but how would one specifically describe the non-biting sort of kiss common to Terrans? Embrace/hug (v) Lastly, it's always been sort of weird to me that Klingon has no single word for skull (n). On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 8:11 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:

As I said in my original post, all the polls will be held on the KLI website. Some will be both open to the public while others will be member-only.

Facebook and Email are only being used to collect suggestions in a way that everyone can see what's already been suggested.

qurgh

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 8:05 PM, <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:

...

I'd like to request that, in the future, this be done by Google form rather than directly on Facebook. Although I personally do have a Facebook account, hosting an official poll there is alienating to anyone who doesn't, or who doesn't use Facebook for this community. A form can easily be linked to both here and on multiple social networks (Google+, for instance).

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2017, at 01:47, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:

The qep'a' is a mere 4 months away, so it's time to start up another chabal tetlh!

Is there a word you wish we had? Well now's your chance to suggest it!

If you are a Facebook user, please head over to https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearnKlingon/permalink/1267497370025143/ and comment with your suggestions.

If you are not a Facebook user, you can still see all the suggestions people have made by going to https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearnKlingon/permalink/1267497370025143/. However, instead of commenting, either reply on list or send me an email directly and I'll add your suggestions to the Facebook post.

The post will be open for two weeks and will close in the evening of April 3rd. I will accept no more suggestions after that time. Then we will have a series of polls (both public and member only) on the KLI website to narrow the list down.

qurgh

_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

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ghItlhpu' Quvar, jatlh:

Actually more for my personal practice, I'm going to try to tanslate some phrases, but also to show that missing words are not always a hinder to translate.

majQa' - I was going to do the same thing, but decided against it in the first instance. More than happy to give a couple of them a shot though :) ghItlhpu' nIqolay, jatlh:

More words relating to weather, weather forecasting, and weather hazards: - Forecast (n/v), thunder (n/v), hail (n/v), cyclone/hurricane (n), tornado (n), blizzard (n or v), shelter (n/v), flood (n/v), tide (n), drown (v)

For "shelter" (n.), surely {lulIgh} "refuge" would be appropriate. For the verb, {Qan'egh}, {So''egh}, {yoD'egh}... etc. jangpu' Quvar, jatlh:

For te other words, I guess they will be words combined with {'ul} and {SuS} ... I'm just guessing.

Remember also that we have the recent revelation of {pe'bIl} "lightning". taH nIqolay:

- How to discuss snow, rain, and other weather phenomena as nouns, as in "three inches of rain", "my car is covered in snow", or "a storm was heading for the city of Quin'lat".

SISpu' pagh vI' cha' cha' 'uj Saw'bogh bIQ "water which has a depth of 0.22 'uj rained" peDpu'mo' DujwIj So'lu' "because it snowed, my car is covered" QInlatDaq tugh jevchoH "soon it will begin to storm in Quin'lat" QeS 'utlh

ghItlhpu' naHQun, jatlh:

kiss v.

Honestly, there seem to be a lot of people looking for this word when we've got a pretty good circumstantial case that Klingons just don't have this as a distinct part of their courtship behaviours. We do have {chop} "bite" as well as {rem} "suck" (compare the English slang term "sucking face"), which should pretty much cover the requisite actions beyond {wuSDu'chaj HotchuqmoH}. QeS 'utlh

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:

ghItlhpu' naHQun, jatlh:

...

kiss v.

Honestly, there seem to be a lot of people looking for this word when

we've got a pretty good circumstantial case that Klingons just don't have this as a distinct part of their courtship behaviours.

We do have {chop} "bite" as well as {rem} "suck" (compare the English

slang term "sucking face"), which should pretty much cover the requisite actions beyond {wuSDu'chaj HotchuqmoH}.

QeS 'utlh

But when you're dealing with a text that involves sucking, biting, and kissing, it's nice to be able to clearly distinguish each act. {'I'DajDaq wuSDaj lo'} ? ~naHQun -- ~Michael Roney, Jr. Freelance Translator

Am 21.03.2017 um 15:33 schrieb SuStel:

or that no Klingon doing that would ever press their lips to the baby.

I don't recall the exact episode, but I'm pretty sure that there are several scenes with kissing Klingons. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net

On 3/21/2017 11:44 AM, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de <mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote:

...

I'm pretty sure that there are several scenes with kissing Klingons.

...

Off the top of my head, we've seen a Klingon kiss a Trill, a Ferengi, and a half Betazoid half Human. So, we have seen Klingons kiss on screen, I just don't recall any Klingons kissing other Klingons.

And in at least one of those instances, the context was the alien conforming to the culture of the Klingon. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 3/21/2017 12:45 PM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:

ghItlhpu' SuStel, jatlh:

...

A kiss is not a bite. People saying *chop* as an equivalent to /kiss/ drive me crazy.

Though it's of course not a one-to-one equivalent, Marc was the one who first used it.

*HIchop, bang.*

"Give us a kiss, love." (/Radio Times/)

Clearly it's a rendition of the cultural meaning rather than the physical action, but it does show that Klingons probably don't kiss as a sign of romantic affection.

It doesn't show that at all. I acknowledge that Okrand used *chop* in place of /kiss,/ but he provided no context. Are we meant to take this as a completely literal translation, and *chop* means /kiss/ as well as /bite/? Are we supposed to understand that Klingons don't kiss for affection, but they do bite? Are we supposed to take this as a tongue-in-cheek translation? Are we supposed to conclude that Klingons bite instead of kiss someone beloved, but others might be kissed instead of bitten? To whom is this said? We don't know.

taH:

...

I don't like hearing fan over-generalizations of what they've seen on screen to

...

every aspect of a Klingon's life.

Please don't assume my motivations.

I didn't say /you/ were over-generalizing. I was explaining the background of my dislike of using *chop* for a romantic or sexual kiss, and that background includes hearing people interpolating the tiny amount of culture information we get on-screen into an entire culture. That said, I think you/are/ over-generalizing. You've got a concept of what Klingons would or would not do, and you're using that concept to justify the lack of a word. You might be right or you might not, but either way you're taking the very scanty cultural information we've got and generalizing it to an entire culture. This is actually a problem with most alien races in /Star Trek:/ they tend to be painted, even by the writers, with very broad strokes. All Klingons are warriors (until they're not). All Ferengi are after profit above all else (until they're not). All Vulcans are intellectual (until they're not). This is the classic Planet of Hats problem. On the Planet of Hats, there's no room for a Klingon tenderly looking at his baby (until a writer wants to make a point, which just proves the rule).

taH:

...

There was a great cover of /HolQeD,/ my favorite cover, showing a Klingon man

...

holding a Klingon baby very close and looking down at it tenderly. Go ahead and

...

tell me that no Klingon would ever do that, or that no Klingon doing that would

...

ever press their lips to the baby.

...

Or is everyone thoughtlessly equating kissing with a sexual or romantic act?

Firstly, yes, a Klingon might well press their lips to a baby - but I don't think a Klingon would press their lips to a baby *in a regular and culturally constituted way that would justify developing a specific and dedicated verb for pressing their lips to something*. That's the distinction.

But what on-screen scene led you to that conclusion? What piece of Okrandian canon tells you this? Nothing at all: you're generalizing from the Klingon Hat.

The closest I'd get to agreeing with you here is that a Klingon would certainly nuzzle some part of their head to the baby's. And if anything, in this context I think a Klingon would probably press their *forehead* to the baby. We do know from canon that the forehead is a potent symbol of heritage and of family for Klingons (KGT 28-29, and the curse *Hab SoSlI' Quch* "your mother has a smooth forehead" from PK), and that festive occasions are times that bring warriors to butt foreheads to show camaraderie (KGT 157-158).

And those things have absolutely zilch to do with fathers showing affection to their children. You might as well claim that Klingons rub ice cream cones on their foreheads to demonstrate how delicious they are.

And have you ever seen the Inuit /kunik/ or Māori /hongi/, methods of greeting and showing affection that are performed by pressing noses together rather than lips? The assumption that the lips are a unique and universal site of expressing even non-sexual physical affection is not just a human-centric, but an ethnocentric one and one that, in the absence of any evidence, I don't believe we can fairly make about Klingons either.

No, we can't! This is absolutely correct. So... how can you make the claim that Klingons DON'T kiss their children OR that they rub foreheads? You have no data.

But the /Radio Times/ translation indicates that even if they do, they probably don't care for doing it in *parmaq*.

Unless Okrand clarifies, one can be a *bang* without being a *parmaqqay.* *bang* is not necessarily romantic; *parmaqqay* is. And again, we don't know the context of the Radio Times quote. /Give us a kiss, love/ is something that an English person might say to a lover or a child or even a complete stranger. It does not automatically mean romance. We have no context. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 3/21/2017 9:50 AM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:

...

peDpu'mo' DujwIj So'lu' "because it snowed, my car is covered"

ghel SuStel:

DujlIj So' nuq?

va! reH peDDI' DujwIj So'wI' chu'lu' jay'!! ;-) -- Lieven.

Am 21.03.2017 um 15:37 schrieb SuStel:

On 3/21/2017 10:30 AM, Lieven wrote:

...

...

On 3/21/2017 9:50 AM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:

...

peDpu'mo' DujwIj So'lu' "because it snowed, my car is covered"

ghel SuStel:

...

DujlIj So' nuq?

va! reH peDDI' DujwIj So'wI' chu'lu' jay'!! ;-)

peDDI' Duj So'lu'pu'bogh 'angba'lu'...

Dajbej. peDmo' chaq Duj'e' So'lu'bogh 'anglu'ba', 'ach 'oH leghlaHbe' vay', 'oH velmo' chutHommey chIS. Lieven.

On 3/21/2017 10:52 AM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:

jIghItlhpu', jIjatlh:

...

peDpu'mo' DujwIj So'lu' "because it snowed, my car is covered"

mujang SuStel, jatlh:

...

DujlIj So' nuq?

If you want to play it that way, peD je nuq'e'? And who knows? bIQ qutHommey? chuch ghIH? DujtlhuQmey taD? I'm not saying there's no word for the noun "snow". What I'm saying is, if one wanted to describe the situations that were being described, we do have pretty reasonable vocabulary with which to do so. Maybe I'm thinking of the qep'a' wishlisting slightly differently.

I think you are. Someone asked for the noun for /snow,/ and you're basically saying not to ask for one because you can find other ways to say it. I'd like a noun for snow so I don't have to play at circumlocution whenever I want to use it. I also find it highly unlikely that Klingons don't have a word for this common stuff, and that they play word games whenever they talk about it. It's a wish-list, not an I-can't-find-any-other-way-to-say-it list. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 3/21/2017 11:27 AM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:

On the other hand, "word games" isn't quite a fair assessment. I speak a language where the only attested nouns for "love" are compounds meaning "heart-warmth" and "good-seeing". I believe, and will continue to, that we should be very careful about approaching the Klingon lexicon with expectations coloured by the richness and the semantic divisions of Standard Average European lexicons. If there's a monomorphemic Klingon word for snow, that'd be great, and I'd look forward to using it. But if Klingons (say) perceive snow as merely another form of ice, and only disambiguate when necessary by calling it something like {chuch ghIH}, then that should be fine too.

I don't disagree with that. And if Okrand tells us that Klingons perceive snow as merely another form of ice, and only disambiguate when necessary by calling it something like *chuch ghIH,* then we have our answer, and the question was worthwhile. Asking for a noun for /snow/ is not refusing any other ways Klingon have to refer to it. It's saying we don't know how Klingons refer to it; would you please ask Maltz how he refers to the stuff called /snow/? See this stuff in my hand? What do you call it? But when I say /I'm going to ignore your question about what you call that stuff and talk about how an unspecified agent covered my car while it was snowing,/ that's playing word-games. As for your language that uses compounds to mean /love,/ well, those compounds, and any rules on how they're used, would be the answer to how you say /love/ in that language. "It works differently than in English" is a perfectly valid answer available to Okrand, and he knows it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 3/21/2017 11:55 AM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:

Playing word-games" was not on my agenda and that was the reason for my replacement proverb. If that wasn't enough I'll apologise in English: I'm sorry for the confusion.

I wasn't accusing /you/ of playing word-games; I meant that we all have to play word-games when we come across a concept which simply hasn't been given to us in Klingon. We simply don't know what Klingons call the stuff that falls from the sky when it *peD*s. To talk about that stuff, we have to play word-games. We have to invent descriptions that our listeners are going to understand, then talk about the stuff we just described without ever actually naming it. Or we have to side-step talking about the actual stuff and just hint at it by talking about its effects or its origin. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

peDwI' may mean:- - V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument] Nahuatl does the same: [tonatiuh] = "the sun" is an agent of a verb root that means "for the sun to shine". ----Original message----

From : sustel@trimboli.name Date : 21/03/2017 - 15:08 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

I think you are. Someone asked for the noun for snow, ...

Here's the full stanza from the paq'batlh: ghIq QavwI'chaj DuQchu' qeylIS betleH chaHDaq SIStaHvIS negh 'Iw Then Kahless's bat'leth Pierced the last of them, Showered with the soldiers' blood. {chaHDaq SIStaHvIS negh 'Iw} "while the soldiers' blood rained on them" I'm not sure this supports your idea that *{SISwI'} may mean "rainwater". I think your first instinct was correct: if anything, *{SISwI'} "thing that rains/showers", e.g. a rain cloud (or maybe even a shower or sprinkler head). I don't remember if anyone has mentioned this, but we also have {SIS yoD} "umbrella" from TalkNow ("rain shield"??). However, lojmIt tI'wI'nuv reported a personal discussion with MO at qepHom 2011: "Note: the existence of a noun *{SIS} 'rain' is probably limited to this expression (i.e. it's a fossilised remnant rather than a productive noun)." --Voragh On Behalf Of Felix Malmenbeck Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:19 AM According to an e-mail by Roger Cheesbro:

All correct. SISlu', altho grammaticlly correct, he didn't particularly like. Someone COULD use it but to me it sounds like they skipped science class and don't know what the subject is. You can also give it an object and say things like the clouds rained down cats and dogs. ...or something like that; you get the idea. But when Marc and I went outside and drops of water were falling on us, he looked up and simply said "SIS".

This would indicate that a {SISwI'} would actually be a rain cloud, rather than the rain itself, which would be {bIQ SISlu'bogh}. However, in paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 6), we have the sentence {chaHDaq SIStaHvIS 'Iw}, indicating that rainwater may indeed be described as {SISwI'}.

== WORD REQUEST MESSAGE == - be submerged [in] (verb) Examples of things I'd like to be able to say: * "When you start the experiment, fully submerge the specimen in acid." * "Because of the storm, my house was somewhat submerged (in water)." * "He is afraid of being submerged (in water)." * "The spy submerged herself (in water) in order to hide." * "Beware of submerged mines." You might also distinguish between underwater swimming and surface swimming by saying "swims while submerged" and "swims while not submerged". Of course, the gloss "be submerged (verb)" is only a suggestion. You might also consider glosses such as "submerge, place underwater (verb)" or "immerse (verb)", or even an 'adjectival' verb such as "be submerged [in] (verb)". Non-verb alternatives (or supplements) might be a noun such as "area underwater, area below the surface of a liquid (noun)" or even an adverb such as "under-liquidly, taking place while submerged in liquid". However, I feel verbs are very handy because we have so many different ways to modify them using various affixes and adverbs, allowing us to make distinctions such as "slightly submerged", "almost completely submerged" or "slowly progressing towards fully submerging oneself for the purpose of hiding" with relative ease. The word would not necessarily have to be limited to liquids; it might also refer to being immersed in a gas (such as air, or an alien atmosphere) or a solid (such as sand or snow), or even a plasma or a vacuum. Possible workarounds using existing vocabulary might include words such as {Dech}, {vel}, {qat}, {ngaS} and {HaH}. However, after considering these alternatives, I still feel that having a canonical word specifically for complete submersion/immersion would be quite handy: * {Dech} - This doesn't really cut it, because an island is surrounded by water, but if it is *submerged* in water then it's not much of an island anymore. Likewise, in a desert, you would be surrounded by sand, but you'd best avoid being submerged in it. * {vel} - This is closer to the intended meaning, but I still don't quite feel it covers the intended meaning. When I've gone for a swim and am coming up on land, I will be covered in water until I've had time to dry. If it is raining, I'll probably remain covered in water until I've found shelter. * {qat} - This comes quite close to the intended meaning, but I'm not sure it's quite there. A {qatwI'} may be just a thin layer, which I don't really think covers (hehe) the intended meaning of being placed into an environment filled with a substance. * {ngaS} - This, I feel, comes the closest to encapsulating (hehe) the intended meaning, and is probably what I'd use for most situations given what's currently available. However, I feel it sort of suffers from the same issue as {qat}; a {ngaSwI'} is often just a (relatively) thin layer, rather than an environment. * {HaH} - This makes sense for some possible uses of the word "submerge(d)", but given the definition "marinade, soak, drench", it seems the focus is quite specific; you're saturating something with liquid, which doesn't feel right for describing, say, a spy who is submerging herself for the purpose of remaining undetected, or designing an underwater weapon, where soaking is usually a design challenge to be overcome. ________________________________ From: Felix Malmenbeck Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 13:19 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org; a.appleyard@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! I wonder if maybe we should start flagging our e-mails to make it easier for qurgh to filter out the ones that don't contain any new requests to add to his list. Something like: == DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. ==

peDwI' may mean:- - V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument]

There is some conflicting evidence regarding what the subject and object of {SIS}, which likely has a syntax similar to {peD}: According to an e-mail by Roger Cheesbro:

All correct. SISlu', altho grammaticlly correct, he didn't particularly like. Someone COULD use it but to me it sounds like they skipped science class and don't know what the subject is. You can also give it an object and say things like the clouds rained down cats and dogs. ...or something like that; you get the idea. But when Marc and I went outside and drops of water were falling on us, he looked up and simply said "SIS".

This would indicate that a {SISwI'} would actually be a rain cloud, rather than the rain itself, which would be {bIQ SISlu'bogh}. However, in paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 6), we have the sentence {chaHDaq SIStaHvIS 'Iw}, indicating that rainwater may indeed be described as {SISwI'}. It's very possible that {SIS} (and {peD}) have some sort of dual syntax, where context and common sense dictate which reading is correct. It's also worth noting that when it comes to rain and snow, the clouds and the matter that falls from them is really one and the same; just at different stages. (Well, at least for the most part; a meteorologist may know of some exceptions to this.) In any event, I fully support the request for a word for snow, whether it's a canonized modification of a known word or a whole new one. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 07:28 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! peDwI' may mean:- - V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument] Nahuatl does the same: [tonatiuh] = "the sun" is an agent of a verb root that means "for the sun to shine". ----Original message----

From : sustel@trimboli.name Date : 21/03/2017 - 15:08 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

I think you are. Someone asked for the noun for snow, ...

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:54 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:

Actually more for my personal practice, I'm going to try to tanslate some phrases, but also to show that missing words are not always a hinder to translate.

Am 21.03.2017 um 04:29 schrieb nIqolay Q:

...

More words relating to weather, weather forecasting, and weather hazards: - Forecast (n/v), thunder (n/v), hail (n/v), cyclone/hurricane (n), tornado (n), blizzard (n or v), shelter (n/v), flood (n/v), tide (n), drown (v)

Watch your sources: {SoD} "flood" n/v. (TKD)

HIvqa' veqlargh! I'm not sure some of the other translations you propose work, though. We seem to have different connotations for words, based on differing interpretations of their glosses. Having specific guidance one way or another would be useful here.

{wa'leS chaq SIS; X vatlhvI' DuH.}

{DuH} seems to mean "possibility" in the sense of "one option among many". I'm not sure I'd use it personally in the sense of statistical probability.

That's interesting. I always say thinhs like {qaStaHvIS wa' rep vagh qeli'qam leng SuS} - but that'S a bit awkward maybe.

I'd thought of a similar construction, but it is awkward.

We have {'uj}, which is about 34.8 cm (about 13" 3/4), but what an 'ujHom is remains a guess.

Likewise, working with fractional {'ujmey} is awkward.

Hm. Most of us have gotten used to abuse the word {poH} for that.

I've thought about that, but it doesn't feel right to me. If it's accepted practice I suppose I can bite the bullet.

What about {wanI'}?

{wanI'} doesn't necessarily have the connotation I'm looking for, which is something along the lines of "a very brief duration of time that is perhaps conceptually perceived as having no duration". An event or occurence can last longer than a single moment.

A klingon may say "where's the difference?" :-D

Terrans also use their own words to describe things they see other cultures do, when they have no own word for it.

Terrans also have ways of making distinctions when necessary, though. Klingons probably would include Terran kissing under {chop} if they didn't care about making a distinction. But is there a phrase they tend to use that has the specific connotation of the toothless way that Terrans {chop}?

This may be related to that fact that Klingons do not talk a lot about physiology. At the first stepp, I would guess that all the bones are just named using the body part plus the word for bone: {nach Hom} "head bone" = skull.

Not always. Ribs are {joQDu'}, not {ro HomDu'}. Spines are {pIpDu'}, not {Dub HomDu'}. Also, I'm not sure I buy the argument that Klingons don't talk a lot about physiology. Maybe not in the medical sense, but one would think a warrior culture would be able to describe the body parts they're smashing, hacking, and/or removing. The skull in particular is a pretty distinctive bone, both visually and functionally, which has powerful symbolic connotations in many cultures. It seems unusual that they wouldn't have specifically vocabulary for it. (Also, {X Hom} bone constructions sound a little awkward to me because of the potential homophony with the suffix {-Hom}.)

Discussion below: On Thursday 23 Mar 2017 07:39:56 MorphemeAddict wrote:

Why so specific about a speed unit in distance per time? Why not something like knots?

lay'tel SIvten

Like nautical miles per hour for example? Though I reckon since Marc did the Air and Space Museum app translation, we will have to get used to expressing speeds that way.

qaStaHvIS wa' rep, vaghvatlh javmaH loS qelI'qam lenglaH.

That's exactly what I would expect from him. It's as if you're channeling Maltz! -- Voragh

-----Original Message----- On Behalf Of kechpaja

Rhona Fenwick wrote:

...

Also, it'd be useful to have a word for "mote, grain", as of sand or dust. I'm not sure that {'ay'Hom} quite gets the sense across, and {pay'an} is the wrong kind of "particle".

Obviously this is just conjecture, but it would be great if the word for "mote" turned out to be {QunmIn}.

I don't know if that's the kind of reference Marc would make, though.

-SapIr

Actually qep'a' 2016 produced something close to one of your desiderata: magh Klingon plant that most closely resembles grass (n) magh yotlh lawn (n) So I would say *{magh tIq yotlh} "field of long grass" for grassland, steppe, prairie, etc., though {Hatlh} might be better for open, uncultivated/unmanaged land. --Voragh On Behalf Of Rhona Fenwick (QeS 'utlh) Many of the words I've had on my personal wishlist for a while have been addressed in recent times, so it's growing pleasantly short. These are the main ones I still really struggle with finding a clean and concise expression for: grassland, steppe (n) sand (n)

Speaking of semantic range... apart from {magh yotlh} "lawn", {yotlh} was provided for "park (e.g. recreational)" at qepHom 2016 - whence we also learned {ghommeH yotlh} "plaza, courtyard". These suggest to me Human (or should I say Klingon?) intervention: i.e. a managed, cultivated piece of land vs. the open {Hatlh} "country, countryside". E.g. Sepvetlh latlh DopDaq Hatlh lengtaHvIS qeylIS lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb On the other side of the land, Kahless traveled the lands with an equal number of proud Klingons (PB) nIteb peghoS, HatlhDaq peleng to go their separate ways, And travel the lands. (PB) Beyond the {Sep} "region, country" lies the {Hatlh}. --Voragh On Behalf Of Rhona Fenwick ghItlhpu' Voragh, jatlh:

Actually qep'a' 2016 produced something close to one of your desiderata: magh Klingon plant that most closely resembles grass (n) magh yotlh lawn (n) So I would say *{magh tIq yotlh} "field of long grass" for grassland, steppe, prairie, etc., though {Hatlh} might be better for open, uncultivated/unmanaged land.

Oh yes, I did know about those (and I'm grateful for your reminder of them!). I suppose I'm more thinking that we have {HuD} and {ngech} for hills and valleys, but for open flat land like a steppe or plain or prairie, I wasn't sure if {yotlh} would be appropriate, since KGT seems to imply that it's a cultivated plot of land: "The verb {yob} ("harvest") is used to refer to gathering up plants or plant parts, whether from a field ({yotlh}) that has been sown or out in the wild." (KGT p.89) I've been using {Hatlh} as a stopgap, but it'd be nice to know what the semantic range is on these words. QeS 'utlh

I too have been having trouble finding a good way to express sand and ash and bribe for example. I think describing ground-up rock confuses people if trying to talk about sand. While on the subject of sand my wish-list extends to: beach (n) coast/shore (n) bay/inlet (n) harbour (n) port [as in spaceport, seaport] (n) - some variation of {vergh} combined with {veng} maybe? float [on water/in space, assuming it'll differ from {'al}] (v) be-adrift [on water/in space] (v) sail (n) oar (n) Don't know if Marc's painted himself into a corner with turning "row your boat" into "propel your ship", but a {vo'wI'} can mean a few things. That said, sometimes aiming for a phrase like {vo'meH patmey} if you want what you are describing to remain neutral to time and technology; like you don't want it to matter if the ship has sails, or if it's a fully kitted out Brel. Recently I too needed something for Skull, {nach Hom} seemed to work OK but had too many syllables at the time. We have a word for crossing/traversing something, but I've wanted to express things crossing like in an x or + shape before now. Do we have such a construction? I'd also vote for a noun for snow as in the past using something like {chuch qutmey} seemed a bit complicated. Consider there to be another vote for *tide (n)* here too, had to make do with something like big wave recently. Though now I think about it some way of combining {maS} and {yu'egh} might work. Can you do something like {maSmo' yu'egh}? Do we have a usual way of expressing the concept of "beyond" like: On the other side of the mountain, there is a prison kind of thing? or Past the crossroads someone did something? Thanks, mupwI'

On Tuesday 21 Mar 2017 14:41:47 SuStel wrote:

On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:

...

I too have been having trouble finding a good way to express sand and ash and bribe for example. I think describing ground-up rock confuses people if trying to talk about sand.

Hmm. *nagh pullu'pu'bogh* is actually a pretty decent substitute for /sand./

True, but it's also an overly complicated term to use for poetic or lyrical use. *rIy'o'* 'oH be' pong'e'. 'ej naghDaq pullu'pu'bogh mI' ghaH.

...

While on the subject of sand my wish-list extends to:

beach (n)

coast/shore (n)

We already have /beach:/ *bIQ'a' HeH.* This will often work for /coast/ or /shore/ as well; the phrase *bIQ'a' HeH* doesn't show us the difference between those and /beach. /If I wanted to contrast an actual beach and some non-beach shoreline, I might struggle with describing a sandy beach shore and a non-sandy beach shore.

We do? Please remind me of the source on this one. While we're discussing *bIQ'a' HeH*, and to confirm if I'd be using it correctly, how would you all interpret: {bIQ'a' 'ev tIng HeH}

...

sail (n)

oar (n)

Don't know if Marc's painted himself into a corner with turning "row your boat" into "propel your ship", but a {vo'wI'} can mean a few things.

Did he translate that? I don't remember this. What is the source?

The vo'wI' bit I inferred from something he's reported to have said, maybe not a translation in-and- of-itself but an interview about a translation of his - perhaps the anthem?

Don't think so, though something about that is nagging me. I'm also thinking you might do something with *Don* and maybe *vel**,* but it's clumsy.

As parallel things don't cross, would that be something based on {DonHa'} or the like?

...

Do we have a usual way of expressing the concept of "beyond" like: On the other side of the mountain, there is a prison kind of thing?

or Past the crossroads someone did something?

*HuD latlh Dop retlhDaq bIghHa' tu'lu'*/in the area next to the mountain's other side there is a prison./ But that doesn't cover phrases like /far over the Misty Mountains cold,/ where the thing you're talking about isn't immediately next to the other side of the mountain. You might play with something like *pa' Hop* /faraway thereabouts. /This starts to run into "sometimes inaccurate but never approximate" territory.

Thanks for the response and identifying the reference. Why do I get the feeling I'm not the only one to try translating that poem?

...

{bIQ'a' 'ev tIng HeH}

"border of the western ocean"? West-coast?

I'd translate it as "the ocean's western coast". So, for example, {'atlantIq bIQ'a' 'ev tIng HeH} would overlap with {'amerI'qa' SepjIjQa' chan bIQ'a' HeH}. Useful canonical examples: {veng chanDaq jIwam.} = "I hunt east of the city." {chan vengDaq jIwam.} = "I hunt in the city to the east." MO: The "city's east," meaning "the eastern part of the city," would make use of <yoS> "area, district": <veng chan yoS> (literally "city area-eastward district" or "city's eastward-area's district")." Source: http://klingonska.org/canon/1999-11-21-news.txt ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 23:02 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! Am 21.03.2017 um 22:37 schrieb Jeremy Silver:

...

We already have /beach:/ *bIQ'a' HeH.* This will often work for /coast/ [...] We do? Please remind me of the source on this one.

Talk Now: Learn Klingon (Software, 2011)

While we're discussing *bIQ'a' HeH*, and to confirm if I'd be using it correctly, how would you all interpret:

{bIQ'a' 'ev tIng HeH}

"border of the western ocean"? West-coast?

...

...

Don't know if Marc's painted himself into a corner with turning "row your boat" into "propel your ship", but a {vo'wI'} can mean a few things. [...] Did he translate that? I don't remember this. What is the source?

I don't think he translated that. This phrase comes from a comment by KCD executive producer Keith Halper about the "Warriors Anthem": "The literal translation is always skewed a bit, so if you send him [Okrand] 'Row, row, row your boat,' you'll get back 'Propel, propel, propel your craft.' " See the full quote in the Wiki: www.klingonwiki.net/En/WarriorsAnthem -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

beach (ocean) : nuqDaq 'oH bIQ'a' HeH'e' Where is the beach? (TNK) shore (river bank) : ghIq SIqralDaq molor HoS waw' lupawmeH bIQtIq HeH juS SuvwI' ghom The band of warriors then went past the shore to the river Skral, to Molor's seat of power. (PB) shore (lake) : mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB) --Voragh On Behalf Of SuStel Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 1:42 PM On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote: While on the subject of sand my wish-list extends to: beach (n) coast/shore (n) We already have beach: bIQ'a' HeH. This will often work for coast or shore as well; the phrase bIQ'a' HeH doesn't show us the difference between those and beach. If I wanted to contrast an actual beach and some non-beach shoreline, I might struggle with describing a sandy beach shore and a non-sandy beach shore. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

== DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. ==

...

mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)

Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS} ?

The full stanza is: mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt SanDaj buS vaj 'It The text of paq'batlh is mostly devoid of punctuation, but given both the grammar and the line breaks, it's probably safe to assume that the Klingon text of the first two lines could be divided as: {mob qeylIS. ngeng HeHDaq yIt. SanDaj buS, vaj 'It.} A more literal translation of the Klingon text would probably be "Kahless was alone. He walked by the lake's shore." You could also have {mob. ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS.} ("He was alone. Kahless walked by the lake's shore.") However, I think that's a bit less clear; Morath is also involved in this canto, so it's a good idea to clarify that you're talking about Kahless sooner rather than later. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 00:05 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS} ? ----Original message----

From : sboozer@uchicago.edu Date : 22/03/2017 - 17:22 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

shore (lake) : mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:

- talk about, discuss (verb)

Example sentences:

(1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon."

(2) "We spoke about the fact that bicycles are evil."

(3) "What are y'all talking about?"

(4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me about."

(5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk about the space station that our enemies destroyed?"

(6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on."

(7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much."

(8) "Those lovers talk about each other too much."

I'm not suggesting these are the ideal (or necessarily even acceptable) way to express your sentences, but lately I've been considering how sentences could be made more concise with the topic marker {-'e'}, which seems underused (by humans, anyway). For many situations, it seems like a shorter alternative to tacking {bopbogh...} onto the object of consideration. So can you indicate the topic of conversation this way before an intransitive verb of speech? How do these sentences strike you? (1) tlhIngan Hol'e' jIjatlh 'e' vItIv. (2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey. ngoDvam'e' majatlh. (3) nuq'e' SujatlhtaH? (4) Qe'e' choja'ta'bogh vISuchta'. (5) qatlh tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' jatlhqangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'? (6) jInmol'e' turtaHbogh mujatlhQo'. (7) tlhoy bop'egh 'eDjenvetlh jatlhtaHvIS. (8) tlhoy bopchuq parmaqqayvetlh jatlhtaHvIS. For the last two, due to their reflexive nature, I couldn't see how to use the topic marker without repeating {'eDjen} or {parmaqqay} (though just because of my English sense of style: I seem to recall from TKD something to the effect that such repetition isn't bad style in Klingon). It seems to me that {bop} <be about, be concerned with> can take a person as its subject as well as the usual {bom}, {lut}, etc. If not, I'd cheerfully change {bop} to {buS} or {qIm} or somesuch. ~mIp'av

== DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. == I agree quite a lot with both of you. -'e' really is criminally underused; I've been studying Japanese lately, and I've grown to feel that topic markers are AWESOME. And certainly, there are many cases where it does the job quite well. However, as SuStel says, the topic marker is quite vague with regard to what role the topic has in a sentence. Consider a sentence like {ghItlhwIj'e' SoHvaD jIjatlhnIS.} Do I need to talk to you *about* my essay, or is speaking to you part of my process for writing the essay? Likewise with a sentence such as {parmaq Dotlhmaj'e' jIHvaD jatlhqangbe'law'.} Does he/she seem unwilling to talk to me *about* our relationship, or is him/her being seemingly unwilling to talk to me an issue of our relationship? I'm being a bit obtuse, of course, and these ambiguities can probably be sorted out from context without too much trouble, but it illustrates a problem. Also, because we like to use -'e' to disambiguate relative clauses, more complex sentences like (5) come off as a bit disjointed to me; "Why the space station that our enemies destroyed...? Our CO refuses to talk." This can be alleviated by splitting things into multiple sentences, though: {tengchaH luSangta' jaghpu'ma'. tengchaHvam'e' qatlh jatlhQo' ra'wI'ma'?} Regarding {vay' bop nuv}: I also think that {bop} can probably be used with a person as the subject, but I suspect that it has more to do with a person's focus than about what they talk about; a {bop'eghwI'} might be somebody who's very self-absorbed, for example, which may correlate with talking about oneself, but isn't necessarily the same thing. Likewise, a person focusing on or considering something while talking isn't necessarily talking *about* that thing. For instance, when talking about city planning, I might not talk much about myself, but I may place too much focus on issues that affect me, and approach them in a way that is relates to my experience (for example by being oblivious to the needs of rural residents). Alternatively, I might be trying to influence a discussion in a way that benefits me, but if I'm clever about it, I probably won't actually talk *about* myself. That being said, both the topic particle and words like {bop}, {buS}, {qel}, {Del} and so forth are all useful tools for describing the topic of a conversation, and you can accomplish a lot with them, which is why I don't really consider this to be a lexical "gap", per se. That being said, I do feel that "talk about (subject)" is a useful enough expression that having a canonical word or expression for it makes a lot of sense (and in particular, a verb would be nice, because those are very versatile). ...and, of course, Marc might end up simply telling us that Maltz thought this was a weird request, and say that we should keep using workarounds like the ones we've discussed here. And then some of us will grind our teeth for a bit and feel that this was a wasted request, but in the end, we would still end up better equipped for the next time we talk about talking about what it is we talk about. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of sustel@trimboli.name <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 03:11 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! This has been suggested before, but I think the link between the speech being reported and the topic of the sentence itself is too weak to sustain this argument. Basically, there’s little reason for the listener to expect that the narrator’s topic is the reported speaker’s topic. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: Ed Bailey<mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:56 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: - talk about, discuss (verb) Example sentences: (1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon." (2) "We spoke about the fact that bicycles are evil." (3) "What are y'all talking about?" (4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me about." (5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk about the space station that our enemies destroyed?" (6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on." (7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much." (8) "Those lovers talk about each other too much." I'm not suggesting these are the ideal (or necessarily even acceptable) way to express your sentences, but lately I've been considering how sentences could be made more concise with the topic marker {-'e'}, which seems underused (by humans, anyway). For many situations, it seems like a shorter alternative to tacking {bopbogh...} onto the object of consideration. So can you indicate the topic of conversation this way before an intransitive verb of speech? How do these sentences strike you? (1) tlhIngan Hol'e' jIjatlh 'e' vItIv. (2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey. ngoDvam'e' majatlh. (3) nuq'e' SujatlhtaH? (4) Qe'e' choja'ta'bogh vISuchta'. (5) qatlh tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' jatlhqangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'? (6) jInmol'e' turtaHbogh mujatlhQo'. (7) tlhoy bop'egh 'eDjenvetlh jatlhtaHvIS. (8) tlhoy bopchuq parmaqqayvetlh jatlhtaHvIS. For the last two, due to their reflexive nature, I couldn't see how to use the topic marker without repeating {'eDjen} or {parmaqqay} (though just because of my English sense of style: I seem to recall from TKD something to the effect that such repetition isn't bad style in Klingon). It seems to me that {bop} <be about, be concerned with> can take a person as its subject as well as the usual {bom}, {lut}, etc. If not, I'd cheerfully change {bop} to {buS} or {qIm} or somesuch. ~mIp'av

There's no punctuation in the Klingon, but it does show up in the English translation: mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt SanDaj buS vaj 'It qul ngeng HeHDaq ba'taHvIS qeylIS ghoS SuvwI' qan And Kahless was alone Walking along the shore, His fate heavy on his shoulders. Kahless sits at the shores Of the lake of fire As an old warrior passes by. --Voragh On Behalf Of Felix Malmenbeck == DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. ==

...

mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)

Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS} ?

The full stanza is: mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt SanDaj buS vaj 'It The text of paq'batlh is mostly devoid of punctuation, but given both the grammar and the line breaks, it's probably safe to assume that the Klingon text of the first two lines could be divided as: {mob qeylIS. ngeng HeHDaq yIt. SanDaj buS, vaj 'It.} A more literal translation of the Klingon text would probably be "Kahless was alone. He walked by the lake's shore." You could also have {mob. ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS.} ("He was alone. Kahless walked by the lake's shore.") However, I think that's a bit less clear; Morath is also involved in this canto, so it's a good idea to clarify that you're talking about Kahless sooner rather than later. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org>> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com<mailto:a.appleyard@btinternet.com>> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 00:05 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! Should this be {mob ngeng HeHDaq yIt qeylIS} ? ----Original message----

From : sboozer@uchicago.edu<mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu> Date : 22/03/2017 - 17:22 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! shore (lake) : mob qeylIS ngeng HeHDaq yIt And Kahless was alone walking along the shore (PB)

"Sand" does occur once in the paq'batlh ({ghobchuq loDnI'pu'}, 2nd verse): SuvtaH SuvtaH qamDu'chaj bIngDaq letchoH lam nagh rur They fought on and on, The sand beneath their feet Turned hard as rock Here, Okand used {lam} "dirt" -- which may be a more general term than in English. As far as I can tell, it's the only example of {lam} in the paq'batlh. -- Voragh On Behalf Of SuStel On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote: I too have been having trouble finding a good way to express sand and ash and bribe for example. I think describing ground-up rock confuses people if trying to talk about sand. Hmm. nagh pullu'pu'bogh is actually a pretty decent substitute for sand.

On 3/24/2017 10:39 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:

That nagging feeling is because you’re thinking of one of the many new words revealed over the past year:

chIq cross, traverse (v) (NASM & qepHom 2016)

nIteb 'atlantIq bIQ'a' chIqbogh 'orwI' wa'DIch mojta' he became the first pilot to cross the Atlantic Ocean solo (NASM)

PUN: “Why did the chicken cross the road?”

*From:*tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] *On Behalf Of *SuStel

On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:

We have a word for crossing/traversing something, but I've wanted to express things crossing like in an x or + shape before now. Do we have such a construction?

Don't think so, though something about that is nagging me. I'm also thinking you might do something with *Don* and maybe *vel,* but it's clumsy.

No, that's not what Jeremy asked about. He wants to know how to describe two lines that intersect each other. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 3/24/2017 11:23 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:

Obviously.

I wasn’t responding to Jeremy’s request, I was responding to you.

--Voragh

*From:*tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] *On Behalf Of *SuStel

On 3/24/2017 10:39 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:

That nagging feeling is because you’re thinking of one of the many new words revealed over the past year:

chIq cross, traverse (v) (NASM & qepHom 2016)

nIteb 'atlantIq bIQ'a' chIqbogh 'orwI' wa'DIch mojta' he became the first pilot to cross the Atlantic Ocean solo (NASM)

PUN: “Why did the chicken cross the road?”

*From:*tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] *On Behalf Of *SuStel

On 3/21/2017 1:56 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:

We have a word for crossing/traversing something, but I've wanted to express things crossing like in an x or + shape before now. Do we have such a construction?

Don't think so, though something about that is nagging me. I'm also thinking you might do something with *Don* and maybe *vel,* but it's clumsy.

No, that's not what Jeremy asked about. He wants to know how to describe two lines that intersect each other.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name

_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

My nagging feeling was about the existence of a way to talk about intersections, not about traversals. Jeremy already dismissed the idea of traversal in the post I replied to. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

Jeremy Silver asks:

On an unrelated note, Voragh's recent wotd reply post reminded me we have {joq} used in the context of heartbeat, so how would we comment on the other function of the heart?

Would we have or want a word (or a way to describe): pump (v) - as in move fluids through pipes.

Not that I can think of. Perhaps *{vIHmoHwI'}? You could do something similar with {chIm} "be empty", {buy'} "be full", teb} "fill", {qeD} "vacate", etc. There's a lot of heart imagery in the paq'batlh with several examples of {joq}: Hay'chu' luneHqu' vaj pe'vIl joqqu' cha' tlhIngan tIqDu' Both Klingon hearts beat, at their strongest, in lust for blood. SIqral bIQtIqDaq joqtaHbogh molor tIqDu' qem qeylIS [Kahless brings] Molor's still-beating hearts [to the River Skral] [full translation wanting] Suto'vo'qor botlhDaq pe'vIl joqchu'taH quvbogh 'ej valbogh tIqDu' tIQ At the center of Sto-vo-kor, the ancient hearts of honor and wisdom beat steady and strong. tIqDu'Daj DuQqu'meH qeylIS ma'veq cha' 'etlhmey jop [translation wanting] qanjIt qan vemmoH moratlh vavDaj ghaH qanjIt'e' puj tIqDu'Daj 'ach Hem Morath wakes his father, the old Kanjit, his hearts weak, but proud. tagha' tIq Hoch botlh | Hochlogh Dat joqtaHjaj [...] May it forever beat, anywhere. [full translation wanting] -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

On Friday 24 Mar 2017 22:13:05 Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

== DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. ==

...

Would we have or want a word (or a way to describe): pump (v) - as in move fluids through pipes.

I believe it's quite well covered by {ngaH}, {vo'}, {chung}, {vIHmoH}, {Qay}

Something based on {vIHmoHtaH} might indeed do the trick, but be a bit long.

and some others. Possibly also {rey}, assuming this isn't just a musical term.

That being said, I'd certainly welcome more terminology for pumping, both general and specific, technical and layman; it's a very fundamental and important process in many fields of science (including anatomy, chemistry and physics), so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Klingons have lots of great words for it.

They might not be so hot on washing, but starship operations would find a requirement in pumping breathable air about the place, not to mention pumping fluids from (if not to) the Heads.

Another thing that might be useful for discussing pumping is expressions for describing repeated actions. Examples of useful distinctions might include:

repeatedly do and then undo (ir)regularly periodically cyclically ad infinitum with (increasing/decreasing/oscillating/unchanged) amplitude with (increasing/decreasing/oscillating/unchanged) frequency

One thing that may be related that I've wanted to do was try to describe a rhythm somehow. Words related to periodicity/(ir)regularity/rhythmicity would definitely fill a void.

On Friday 24 Mar 2017 20:12:00 SuStel wrote:

On 3/24/2017 6:13 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

...

== DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. ==

Another thing that might be useful for discussing pumping is expressions for describing repeated actions. Examples of useful distinctions might include:

repeatedly do and then undo

This is the sort of thing Klingon doesn't do generically, but it does well specifically. For instance, *bagh; ghIq baghHa'*/tie; then untie./

...

(ir)regularly

I would expect *roD* /regularly /and **roDHa'* /irregularly /for this, though the latter is unattested.

...

periodically

Either *roD* or *rut* will work for this, depending on which meaning of /periodically/ you mean.

...

cyclically ad infinitum with (increasing/decreasing/oscillating/unchanged) amplitude with (increasing/decreasing/oscillating/unchanged) frequency

For example, if we pretend that we have adverbs with these "definitions":

{[irregularly] joqtaH tIqwIj.} ("My heart is beating irregularly.")

Right now we can say *roD joqtaHbe' tIqwIj,* though it would be nice if we knew we could say **roDHa' joqtaH tIqwIj.*

Trouble is, I'm not convinced this is quite the right meaning. As {roD} seems to cover primarily what the usual/habitual action of something is. {roD joqtaHbe' tIqwIj} suggests I am an android or a member of the undead, or maybe J-l Picard depending on the nature of his replacement - it is not typical for the heart to beat as its usual action. I think {roDHa'} is closer, but I don't believe it covers regularly spaced periodic/cyclic actions changing that regularity. I think our point is things like {bagh; ghIq baghHa'} work once. One wavelength if you will. The {bagh; ghIq baghHa'} needs to be described as a cycle which repeats continuously, to describe the ongoing waveform. It is the concept of *repeating* we're after. The regularity is to do with the fixed spacing of the repeats, not whether an action is habitual or not. Now I'm thinking of it, using {joq} in the sense flapping/fluttering for a heartbeat is entirely the wrong imagery. A flag flapping due to the vagaries of the wind, is as random and irregular as you can get. A fluttering heartbeat is one you shouldn't have. A nice solid, regular, one is preferable. But I'm guessing we're stuck with it now.

That is:- (1) We need an adjective comparative, to add to an adjectival verb (e.g. {pI'} = "he is fat" :: {Y pI'X} = "he is fatter than Y"), easier to use than the law' / puS construction. (2) We need an generalized adverbial for adjectival verbs (e.g. {QIp} = "he is stupid" :: {QIpZ} = "stupidly") Or both together, e.g. {Y qIpZX} = "more stupidly than Y". ----Original message----

From : felixm@kth.se Date : 24/03/2017 - 22:13 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

== DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. ==

Would we have or want a word (or a way to describe): pump (v) - as in move fluids through pipes.

I believe it's quite well covered by {ngaH}, {vo'}, {chung}, {vIHmoH}, {Qay} and some others. Possibly also {rey}, assuming this isn't just a musical term. That being said, I'd certainly welcome more terminology for pumping, both general and specific, technical and layman; it's a very fundamental and important process in many fields of science (including anatomy, chemistry and physics), so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Klingons have lots of great words for it. Another thing that might be useful for discussing pumping is expressions for describing repeated actions. Examples of useful distinctions might include: repeatedly do and then undo (ir)regularly periodically cyclically ad infinitum with (increasing/decreasing/oscillating/unchanged) amplitude with (increasing/decreasing/oscillating/unchanged) frequency For example, if we pretend that we have adverbs with these "definitions": {[irregularly] joqtaH tIqwIj.} ("My heart is beating irregularly.") {[with increasing frequency] rontaH peng.} ("The torpedo is spinning (about its axis) faster and faster.") {[with increasing frequecny] [with decreasing amplitude] bavchuqtaH luSpetmey.} ("The black holes were orbiting each other closer and closer and faster and faster.") {[repeatedly] [do and undo] chovnatlh bIrmoH QulwI'.} ("The researcher cooled and heated the sample.") {[ad infinitum] [cyclically] [do and undo] Sach 'u' 'e' luHar 'op tejpu'.} ("Some scientists believe that the universe expands and contracts in an eternal cycle.") ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 17:01 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! New word request too:

My nagging feeling was about the existence of a way to talk about intersections, not about traversals. Jeremy already dismissed the idea of traversal in the post I replied to.

Been thinking about intersections in the meantime too. Has some variation of {ghom} been used for this idea? On an unrelated note, Voragh's recent wotd reply post reminded me we have {joq} used in the context of heartbeat, so how would we comment on the other function of the heart? Would we have or want a word (or a way to describe): pump (v) - as in move fluids through pipes. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

== WORD WISH == beginning (n) end (n) as in "end of the week", "end of the world", "the end of a nice evening", "the end of an event"... The definitions for {bI'reS} and {bertlham} include a note that they are only used in songs and operas etc. I feel wrong when talking about the weekend as {Hogh bertlham}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net

== DISCUSSION ONLY ==

We can say DorDI' Hogh and we generally accept taghDI' Hogh,

so I'm not devastated by this lack. (I wouldn't mind a verb for

begin [a period of time does this].)

There is quite a lot of canon support for {tagh} having a dual syntax: tagh [event]. = "[Event] begins." [event] tagh [agent]. = "[Agent] starts [event]." Examples: taghbej mu'qaD veS. "Curse warfare has definitely begun." (PK) Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je tIqaw. "When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Melota." (TKW) qeylIS qeylIS qeylIS wanI' vItaghbogh vIrInmoH bIHeghqu' (paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 15, Stanza 5) QIStaq 'emDaq jenchoH jul yor DungDaq Salta'DI' tagh HarghchuqmeH poH (paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 22, Stanza 2 & 4) DaH wanI' potlh taghlu' tIqDu'Daj DuQqu'meH qeylIS ma'veq cha' 'etlhmey jop (paq'batlh, paq'QIH, Canto 3, Stanza 6) There's also the very first stanza of the prologue, written in no' Hol: tog'det q'uti 'qoolit 'usru Dya 'qinmaa Dya q'op Dya at q'uty qoot'ag' "It began with destruction of everything, Energy, gods, matter, Everything will eventually destroy itself." (paq'batlh, lut cherlu', Canto 1, Stanza 1) Reconstruction (speculative, by me): taghDI' Hoch QIHlu' HoS'e' Qunpu''e' Hap'e' je QIH'egh Hoch The word tog' is also repeated in an incomplete stanza: Durmut tog' tyan [...] "Out of the end Came the beginning, ... creation." (paq'batlh, lut cherlu', Canto 3, Stanza 1) Reconstruction (speculative, by me): Dormo' tagh chen [...] So, assuming that tog' is an archaic form (or cognate) of tagh, it seems this meaning of the word goes back a long way! It's worth noting that paq'batlh also uses bI'reS in a broader sense than referring just to opera or songs: bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor ghIq qeylIS juHHom ghoS qotar 'ej qeylIS mong 'uchchoH "First, Molor taunts Kahless" [...] (paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 14, Stanza 6) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon ghIq pum QaSDaj law' 'e' legh ghIq qempa'QeH legh [I don't have the translation handy, but something like "He smiled as he watched the battle begin".] (paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 18, Stanza 3) So, there is some cause to believe that bI'reS is more general than we've previously thought. However, seeing as this is still in the context of opera, I'm taking it with a pinch of salt. In my own, highly dubious, head canon, I like to imagine that bI'reS is a somewhat archaic word which used to refer to a beginning of any sort, but which in 24th century Klingon is only heard in certain contexts, such as opera. That would make the word less useful, but I think it adds flavor to the language. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 12:54 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! On 3/25/2017 3:58 AM, Lieven wrote: == WORD WISH == beginning (n) end (n) as in "end of the week", "end of the world", "the end of a nice evening", "the end of an event"... The definitions for {bI'reS} and {bertlham} include a note that they are only used in songs and operas etc. I feel wrong when talking about the weekend as {Hogh bertlham}. We can say DorDI' Hogh and we generally accept taghDI' Hogh, so I'm not devastated by this lack. (I wouldn't mind a verb for begin [a period of time does this].) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

== WORD REQUEST MESSAGE == - for the N:th time Example sentences: - The third time I saw you, I began to experience parmaq. - I will see my doctor for the third time tomorrow. - I played Qavbogh DI'ruj ngeb wa'maH vagh for the one-thousandth time yesterday. - While I was reading the book for the second time, I noticed a grammatical error. - Do you remember the first time we danced together? You might also consider a sentence that doesn't make much sense in English: - On the how-many:th date do Klingons normally do it for the first time? There are currently some decent workarounds, but I feel they're a lot more cumbersome than they need be; I usually end up with something like "When I'd done something (N-1) times, while I was doing it again, before I had finished doing it..." You also sometimes get into situations where it's unclear if you mean "I ate pizza for the third time yesterday." vs. "I ate pizza three times yesterday." Sometimes there are handy nouns available (Hegh wanI'wIj wa'DIch vIqawchu'.), but other times you're left with -ghach, which works well for simple sentences (qaStaHvIS ja'chuqtaHghachmaj cha'DIch, chovuQqu'.) is troublesome for complex sentences ("the third time my mother and I went hunting for targs in the forest together"). This could potentially be handled using a new numerical suffix. ...or perhaps even by combining -DIch and -logh? ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 15:30 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! On 3/25/2017 9:39 AM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote: == DISCUSSION ONLY ==

We can say DorDI' Hogh and we generally accept taghDI' Hogh,

so I'm not devastated by this lack. (I wouldn't mind a verb for

begin [a period of time does this].)

There is quite a lot of canon support for {tagh} having a dual syntax: tagh [event]. = "[Event] begins." [event] tagh [agent]. = "[Agent] starts [event]." I'm not referring to dual syntax; I mean tagh is glossed begin a process, initiate, which might suggest that it refers only to processes or events, not to time periods. All of the examples of tagh you provided refer to events or processes, except possibly tagh HarghchuqmeH poH, which is a time period defined by an event. The question is, does a week "start a process, initiate"? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

== DISCUSSION ONLY ==

Wouldn't make much sense in Klingon either as this is one answer:

may' Qaplu'chu'ta'DI'.

It would make grammatical sense, but it might still be a stupid question ;)

I'm not referring to dual syntax; I mean tagh is glossed begin a process, initiate, which might suggest that it refers only to processes or events, not to time periods.

Hmm, I see. I guess I personally consider time periods to be events, so I don't really see much of a distinction. Still, seeing as Klingons distinguish between {Dor} and {van}, it's certainly possible that they do. ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 17:24 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh! -discussion- On Saturday 25 Mar 2017 16:11:31 Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

- On the how-many:th date do Klingons normally do it for the first time?

Wouldn't make much sense in Klingon either as this is one answer: may' Qaplu'chu'ta'DI'. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

pIw odor (n) largh smell (sense odors) (v) He' smell (emit odor) (v) He'So' stink (v) (KGT 86): The verb meaning "smell" -- that is, sense odors - is {largh}. The word for "emit a smell" is {He'}. This does not necessarily imply a bad smell. Odors are not considered "good" or "bad"; they are just odors. There may be a subjective evaluation of the source of the odor, however. It is a compliment to suggest that someone smells like *rokeg* blood pie not because the smell itself is good, but rather because the food carries with it positive associations. On the other hand, it is most insulting to say that someone smells like rotting *forshak*. (KGT 85-86): From the Klingon point of view, it is not accurate to say that a particular food is sour; rather, it tastes and smells sour. That is, sourness is not an intrinsic quality of the food; it is a perception, the effect the food has upon the senses of smell and taste, the Klingon sense of smell being particularly highly developed. DaH vay' vIlarghlaH Now I can smell something! CK vay' DalarghDI' yIqaw Remember the scent. (i.e. "Learn from your experiences") TKW reH bang larghlu' Love is always smelled ("A loved one is always smelled"). TKW SumchoH mangghom 'Iw largh The army closes in, smelling blood. PB pa' 'elDI' Duj 'Iw HIq pIw qagh pIw je lularghlu'chu' The smell of bloodwine and gagh Filled the barge upon entering. PB "Klingons have a highly developed sense of smell." (Data, TNG "Genesis") "She must see the fire in your eyes. [...] Words come later. It is the scent that first speaks of love." (Worf counseling Geordi, TNG "Transfigurations") B'Ellana burned some Klingon incense in her quarters; Janeway comments, "Interesting fragrance. I'm surprised it hasn't set off the environmental alarms." (VOY "Nothing Human") "That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (Shakespeare, "Romeo and Juliet", quoted in TOS "By Any Other Name") "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." (Spock to Android Norman, TOS "I, Mudd") --Voragh (Hey, it's what I do!) On Behalf Of Felix Malmenbeck == WORD REQUEST MESSAGE == - sweat Example sentences: "Do fish sweat?" "The dancer was sweating profusely." "I'm covered in sweat." "Sweat tastes salty." "The corridors smell of sweat." "The scent of sweat excites me." It's interesting to note that we've had a word for "deodorant" (noSvagh) since the first edition of TKD, but still no word for sweat :P ...then again, knowing Klingons, sweat is probably one scent they *don't* want to get rid of.

Lieven:

And for the bI'reS/bertlham option, I would be content if the definition is just expanded to "any kind of ending".

Okrand may have been considering this - at least WRT {bI'reS} - in the paq'batlh and Message to Kronos: bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor ghIq qeylIS juHHom ghoS qotar 'ej qeylIS mong 'uchchoH First, Molor taunts Kahless [...] [rest of translation wanting] PB may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon ghIq pum QaSDaj law' 'e' legh ghIq qempa'QeH legh [translation wanting] PB poH tuj bI'reS nungbogh wa' jaj qeylIS DIS chorghvatlh loSmaH jav qaStaHvIS. [sic] In the days that follow the summer solstice in the Year of Kahless 846. ('U'-MTK) Or these could just be poetic license or {mu'mey ru'}. -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

On Saturday 25 Mar 2017 00:20:06 ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:

...

On Mar 24, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: Would we have or want a word (or a way to describe): pump (v) - as in move fluids through pipes.

The verb {ghIt} is glossed "flow, gush, spout". I don't know whether it can describe water moving in a pipe, or if it is exclusive to a fluid exiting or being forced out. If the former, then {ghItmoHwI'} would be a pump -- except it is already in the lexicon as "fountain". I guess {ghoSmoHwI'} will have to do.

We're after the verb. Adding {-wI'} to it should be a given to create the noun. Assuming {ghIt} is only for gushing and spouting out, it's the word for when something has gone *badly* wrong if the fluid is your very life-blood or the content of the head's storage tank. There are some fun stories (if they don't get deleted) from former submariners about what can happen if the wrong valve gets turned.

On 3/21/2017 2:43 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:

For “sail” I’ve always used *{joqwI''a'} – a MUCH bigger version of a {joqwI’} “flab, banner”.

(Lieven < MO, 1/09/2012): {tlhIm} is commonly used for a fabric wall hanging (that might, for example, have a picture of the Klingon emblem on it). If a piece of cloth is displayed at the end of a pole, it is considered a {joqwI'} ("flag"); a {tlhIm} covers some sort of surface.

I don’t know if this covers things hanging down from a horizontal pole or out from a diagonal pole. His point here seems to be that {joqwI’} are not hung on a wall. Okrand has related {joq} with sails:

(HQ 10.4): when a banner or sail flaps, the correct word to use is {joq} “flap, flutter, wave."

Well sure, but a sail is not doing its job if it's *joq*ing. Purely as original imagery—that is, I'm not suggesting this is THE word—I think of *SuS jonwI'* /wind catcher./ If you want to be more specific, *vo'meH SuS jonwI'*/wind catcher for propulsion./ Ooh! Ooh! How about *vo'meH vol* /sheet for propulsion/? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

Am 21.03.2017 um 18:56 schrieb Jeremy Silver:

Consider there to be another vote for *tide (n)* here too, had to make do with something like big wave recently. Though now I think about it some way of combining {maS} and {yu'egh} might work. Can you do something like {maSmo' yu'egh}?

No: Remember that the first word in a noun-noun construction may not have a type 5 suffix.

On the other side of the mountain, there is a prison kind of thing?

{HuD 'emDaq bIghHa' tu'lu'.} -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net

Jeremy Silver asks:

== WORD REQUEST MESSAGE ==

I might have mentioned in a discussion so it might have been buried:

AFAIK we do have words that are somewhat related, but not exactly what you're seeking:

rhythm (e.g drum-beat) (n)

wab sound, noise (n) QoQ music (n) (HQ 2.4): meaning musical sound, whether or not a Klingon voice is participating in producing this sound moq beat (something with an implement) (v) -- which is specifically associated with music: (KGT 74-75): The general term for a percussion instrument of any kind is {'In}. [...] Other members of this group of instruments are hit with a stick of some kind. [...] To strike the instrument with a stick is to {moq} ("beat") the instrument.

Just needed something for: shake/vibrate (v)

Qom experience an earthquake/tremor, tremble (v) Qom Qu' The mission experiences a tremor. KGT Qom He The route experiences a tremor. KGT Qompu' Duj The ship has experienced a tremor. KGT Qombe'! nISbe' jevwI', 'ej not ruS baq. That looks on tempests and is never shaken. [lit. "It does not tremble! The storm does not disrupt it, and it never terminates the bond."] (Sonnet 116) joq flap, flutter, wave, beat (heart) (v) vIH move, be in motion (v) Until we learn otherwise, I would (metaphorically?) use {Qom} for big, violent shaking and {joq} for smaller-scale vibrations or throbbing. -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

Felix Malmenbeck:

== WORD REQUEST MESSAGE == - allergy/intolerance/hypersensitivity

With so many new plant words recently, including one for "pollen", I figure the time is ripe to start complaining about them!

loQ 'oy'DI' SuvwI' bepbe' A warrior does not complain about physical discomfort. TKW ghIlab ghewmey tIbuSQo' Pay no heed to glob flies. TKW ram; ghIlab ghew rur trivial as a glob fly KGT ... not that they don't complain about everything else: (KGT 167): "This verb [{yIv}] literally means "chew". In its slang sense, it is found in such constructions as {choyIv} ("You bother me"--literally, "You chew me") or {muyIv romuluS Ha'DIbaH} ("The Romulan dog irks me"; literally, "The Romulan animal chews me" ... The subject of {yIv} can be only a person or creature, not an inanimate object or a situation. Thus, it is inappropriate to say something like {muyIv 'Iw HIq bIr} ("cold bloodwine chews me"). Standard ways to express the same idea are {nuQ} (annoy, bother) and {berghmoH} (irritate). -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

Greetings all, At this point it's been two weeks and I'm going to close the mailing list to new word requests. I'm also going to make a general call to see if anyone (or ones) on the list would be willing to volunteer to help go through this thread and find all the new words that were requested, minus any duplicates or requests for words that we already have. If you'd like to help out, just drop me note to let me know. Then I will cross-reference everything from here and Facebook, and post the first of several polls on the KLI Website. qurgh