qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits
Greetings all, I've posted the new Klingon words online at https://www.kli.org/activities/qepmey/qepa-chamah-losdich/qepa-chamah-losdic... We'll be working to get these added to the KLI's New Word List on the website, but I wanted to get the pages out to you all as soon as possible. I also got to ask Marc a few questions and documented his answers: I asked about {jIb}, {pob}, {loch} and {rol} after there was a conversation about it in the Learn Klingon Facebook group. {jIb} is only hair on the top of your head, {loch} is the hair on your upper lip, {rol} is the hair on your face that covers you chin/neck area, and {pob} is hair from the neck down. "Arm hair" is {DeS pob}. The words cover both the hair and the entire construction, so {rol} refers to a "beard" as well as the hair that makes up the beard. However, "ear hair" or "nose hair" is talked about using {pob}, and {pob} *can* be used to talk about "face hair" or "head hair" but it would be considered very strange to do so. I asked about fronting nouns marked with {-'e'} as described in the TKD Addendum. Marc said that {-'e'} fronted nouns are marked and it should only be used in extreme situations. He said one could, if they wanted to, use this all the time but it would be similar to an English speaking using Shakespearean English all the time. SuStel asked on Facebook if {yaH} refers to any work place, or just military, and Marc said that it refers to any place where one does work. I also asked Marc again about using {-Ha'} on adverbs. He said that if it makes sense, then {-Ha'} could be used. I offered the example of {tlhIngan Hol neHHa' vIjatlh} and he translated that as "I speak not only Klingon" as in "I speak many languages including Klingon". He say that {vajHa'} still doesn't make sense. yItIv! qurgh
nong! Reading through these, some of my thoughts (and attempts to find puns): {'oDtu'} - I'll probably think of Data's 'Ode to Spot' poem as a mnemonic for this. {'ejvoH} - the Stars & Stripes (or the Stripes & Stars, rather) is a palindromic phrase: {'ejvoH Hov je} {jel} - like a bowl full of jelly or Jell-O™ {po'oH} - one of A.A. Milne's books is The House at Pooh Corner {jItuj'ep ngutlh} - cool call back to a scene from Star Trek IV, where Spock identified a Klingon Mummification Glyph {Do'natu vagh} - this entry (and a few of the others) makes me think that real tlhIngan Hol (and not Paramount Hol) will be used in the new Star Trek series, coming to CBS All Access on September 24, 2017. {-Qo'} - The way I'm interpreting this, the new/clarified info is that {-Qo'} and {-be'} can both be used on an imperative at the same time: *Don't do X! (where X = fight)* Don't fight! {yISuvQo'} (Grammatically correct in both English and Klingon) *Don't do X! (where X = not fight)* Don't not fight! {yISuvbe'Qo'} (To avoid the double negative in the English version, this might be translated as 'Always fight!' or 'Keep fighting!' or 'Don't stop!') *Do not-X (where X = fight)* *Not fight! {*yISuvbe'} (Grammatically incorrect in both English and Klingon) If this has been discussed at the qep'a', could someone confirm that my middle example {yISuvbe'Qo'} is correct? -Tad On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:57 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Greetings all,
I've posted the new Klingon words online at https://www.kli.org/activit ies/qepmey/qepa-chamah-losdich/qepa-chamah-losdich-new-words/
We'll be working to get these added to the KLI's New Word List on the website, but I wanted to get the pages out to you all as soon as possible.
I also got to ask Marc a few questions and documented his answers:
I asked about {jIb}, {pob}, {loch} and {rol} after there was a conversation about it in the Learn Klingon Facebook group. {jIb} is only hair on the top of your head, {loch} is the hair on your upper lip, {rol} is the hair on your face that covers you chin/neck area, and {pob} is hair from the neck down. "Arm hair" is {DeS pob}. The words cover both the hair and the entire construction, so {rol} refers to a "beard" as well as the hair that makes up the beard.
However, "ear hair" or "nose hair" is talked about using {pob}, and {pob} *can* be used to talk about "face hair" or "head hair" but it would be considered very strange to do so.
I asked about fronting nouns marked with {-'e'} as described in the TKD Addendum. Marc said that {-'e'} fronted nouns are marked and it should only be used in extreme situations. He said one could, if they wanted to, use this all the time but it would be similar to an English speaking using Shakespearean English all the time.
SuStel asked on Facebook if {yaH} refers to any work place, or just military, and Marc said that it refers to any place where one does work.
I also asked Marc again about using {-Ha'} on adverbs. He said that if it makes sense, then {-Ha'} could be used. I offered the example of {tlhIngan Hol neHHa' vIjatlh} and he translated that as "I speak not only Klingon" as in "I speak many languages including Klingon". He say that {vajHa'} still doesn't make sense.
yItIv!
qurgh
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Am 29.07.2017 um 06:38 schrieb Tad Stauffer:> {-Qo'} - The way I'm interpreting this, the new/clarified info is that > {-Qo'} and {-be'} can both be used on an imperative at the same time:[...]
If this has been discussed at the qep'a', could someone confirm that my middle example {yISuvbe'Qo'} is correct?
I'm not at the qep'a', but I had forwarded this question to Okrand before the qep'a', but he asked to reveal the answer not before the qep'a'. As this topic seems unleashed now, I think it's okay to forward his message. The question actually arose from a phrase like {HIleghbe'moH} which is a command including the suffix {-be'}. Some argued that this is not allowed, that's why the clarification was made. Summary: TKD mentions that "The suffix -be' cannot be used with imperative verbs" which is a bit misleading. It does not mean that -be' cannot be used at all within imperatives, it just means that it is not used to say "don't". So the phrase {yIleghbe'moH} "Cause him to not see" follows the rules properly. http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_170720.html -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Rover
Another interesting thing from the words list: the sentence {vogh tIghla' tu'lu'} seems to confirm that {vogh} is in the same category of {-Daq}-less place nouns like {Dat}, {naDev}, and {pa'}. On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:59 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 29.07.2017 um 06:38 schrieb Tad Stauffer:> {-Qo'} - The way I'm interpreting this, the new/clarified info is that > {-Qo'} and {-be'} can both be used on an imperative at the same time:[...]
If this has been discussed at the qep'a', could someone confirm that my middle example {yISuvbe'Qo'} is correct?
I'm not at the qep'a', but I had forwarded this question to Okrand before the qep'a', but he asked to reveal the answer not before the qep'a'. As this topic seems unleashed now, I think it's okay to forward his message.
The question actually arose from a phrase like {HIleghbe'moH} which is a command including the suffix {-be'}. Some argued that this is not allowed, that's why the clarification was made.
Summary: TKD mentions that "The suffix -be' cannot be used with imperative verbs" which is a bit misleading. It does not mean that -be' cannot be used at all within imperatives, it just means that it is not used to say "don't". So the phrase {yIleghbe'moH} "Cause him to not see" follows the rules properly.
http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_170720.html
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Rover
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On Jul 29, 2017 4:57 PM, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote: Another interesting thing from the words list: the sentence {vogh tIghla' tu'lu'} seems to confirm that {vogh} is in the same category of {-Daq}-less place nouns like {Dat}, {naDev}, and {pa'}. I asked Marc about this and he confirmed it. He also checked with Maltz about why predicting the weather used 'e' -lu' instead of net in the examples. He said that weather forecasts tend to use 'e' -lu' over net, but net would not be wrong. He also said about Duq and yay', which have similar meanings, that they are synonyms but Duq tends to be more so than yay'. qurgh
Am 30.07.2017 um 01:29 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
I asked Marc about this and he confirmed it.
Big thanks to qurgh to clarfiy all these and publish them so quickly on this list here. For future reference, I have a compiled a list of all clarifications in the Klingon Language Wiki. Feel free to make additions or complete the list of words: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/NewWordsQepa24 -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
Am 30.07.2017 um 01:29 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
He also said about Duq and yay', which have similar meanings, that they are synonyms but Duq tends to be more so than yay'.
"more so" - more what? Does it mean that {Duq} is being "strongly shocked" while {yay'} means just "shocked"? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
Interesting. The new Klingon word for 'lightning' is ' raw ' and is a verb. The Na'vi word for 'lightning' is ' rawm ' and is a noun. Deliberate? I doubt it. Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:57:41 -0500 Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits To: tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org From: qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> Greetings all, I've posted the new Klingon words online at https://www.kli.org/activit ies/qepmey/qepa-chamah-losdich/qepa-chamah-losdich-new-words/ We'll be working to get these added to the KLI's New Word List on the website, but I wanted to get the pages out to you all as soon as possible. I also got to ask Marc a few questions and documented his answers:
A nice haul of new words to use, that's a few crossed off the wish-list. One comment on the image marked page nine, when discussing a weather shelter. "Why would anyone need a thing like that?" was asked, The answer's clearly on page thirteen "Anyone not stupid enough to want the wind to respect them needs a thing like that."
It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a text file and not as graphics.
On Jul 29, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a text file and not as graphics.
Why? I ask in all seriousness. What is not helpful about receiving them in the equivalent of book form? For anyone with vision issues, they are indeed available as screen-readable text, and they will soon be added to the New Words List. But in the meantime, it is both possible and preferable for you to read them yourself, and to add them to whatever dictionary you prefer to use. -- ghunchu'wI'
On Jul 29, 2017 10:52 AM, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote: On Jul 29, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a text
file and not as graphics. Why? I ask in all seriousness. What is not helpful about receiving them in the equivalent of book form? Text is better if you want to copy-paste. bI'reng
On Jul 29, 2017 11:13 AM, "Brent Kesler" <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com> wrote: On Jul 29, 2017 10:52 AM, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote: On Jul 29, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a text
file and not as graphics. Why? I ask in all seriousness. What is not helpful about receiving them in the equivalent of book form? Text is better if you want to copy-paste. bI'reng Then just wait for the KLI new word list to get updated. You can cut and paste from that. I could not share the words at all and just make everyone wait until we all get home from qep'a'. I don't think that's what everyone wants though, so instead, I share the words in the same format the attendees get it so that they are available to everyone as soon as possible, as well as archived on the KLI website. I also share them across a number different platforms, and images are the best way to make sure everyone gets the same info in the same formatting. qurgh
qatlho'. jIbepbe'. jIboHbe'. ngutlhmey maS vay' 'e' DaSIv. bIghel 'ej jIjang. bI'reng On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 12:33 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017 11:13 AM, "Brent Kesler" <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017 10:52 AM, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a
text file and not as graphics.
Why? I ask in all seriousness. What is not helpful about receiving them in the equivalent of book form?
Text is better if you want to copy-paste.
bI'reng
Then just wait for the KLI new word list to get updated. You can cut and paste from that.
I could not share the words at all and just make everyone wait until we all get home from qep'a'.
I don't think that's what everyone wants though, so instead, I share the words in the same format the attendees get it so that they are available to everyone as soon as possible, as well as archived on the KLI website. I also share them across a number different platforms, and images are the best way to make sure everyone gets the same info in the same formatting.
qurgh
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On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Brent Kesler < brent.of.all.people@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017 10:52 AM, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a
text file and not as graphics.
Why? I ask in all seriousness. What is not helpful about receiving them in the equivalent of book form?
Text is better if you want to copy-paste.
On the other hand, typing them yourself is better if you want to learn them. I'm the one responsible for maintaining the New Words List, and I am aware that copying and pasting avoids the potential for certain errors. However, to put them in my own dictionary, I read them from the paper and typed them in by hand. That way I can ensure that they've all passed through my brain at least once. -- ghunchu'wI'
On 8/1/2017 1:33 AM, Alan Anderson wrote:
On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Brent Kesler <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com <mailto:brent.of.all.people@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017 10:52 AM, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net <mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net>> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com <mailto:a.appleyard@btinternet.com>> wrote: > > It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a text file and not as graphics.
Why? I ask in all seriousness. What is not helpful about receiving them in the equivalent of book form?
Text is better if you want to copy-paste.
On the other hand, typing them yourself is better if you want to learn them.
On the third hand, nothing stops you from typing them yourself even when they're text, but those who don't intend to type them themselves can still copy and paste. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 29 July 2017 at 16:52, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
It would have been helpful if these new words had been released as a text file and not as graphics.
Why? I ask in all seriousness. What is not helpful about receiving them in the equivalent of book form?
Here's a reason: if the words had been released to the mailing list in text format, they would've been searchable in my email. I happened to be at the airport when the pun behind {yuwey} hit me like a continent. I searched my mail for when it was revealed so I could just reply to that, but couldn't find it. -- De'vID
majQa'! My request for weather words made it to Maltz! Thank you, Maltz. Is {ghugh} a noun or a verb? The entry says (n) but the English gloss "vocalize" is a verb. I have a similar question about the weather words like {vung}, {cheq}, and {raw}, which are listed as verbs but glossed as nouns. Most of the existing weather words are verbs, so that's not too surprising, but I do want to double check. The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier). Puns: {yamtaw} "line" backwards is a rough transliteration of "what's my", as in the old show What's My Line? {jItuj'ep} "mummy". I groaned when I figured this one out, which is the sign of a quality pun. "I'm hot" ({jItuj}) + "ep" = Imhotep. {retlaw} "dent, indentation" backwards is "Walter", which suggests someone named "Walter Dent", but there's no obviously significant Walter Dent that I can find on Google... the mystery continues. {DabqI'} "mud, clay, putty" backwards is a rough transliteration of "Ichabod". Ichabod Mudd was the eponymous hero's sidekick on the old serial Captain Midnight. (This word's been around a while but I just found out the pun recently.) On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:57 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Greetings all,
I've posted the new Klingon words online at https://www.kli.org/ activities/qepmey/qepa-chamah-losdich/qepa-chamah-losdich-new-words/
We'll be working to get these added to the KLI's New Word List on the website, but I wanted to get the pages out to you all as soon as possible.
I also got to ask Marc a few questions and documented his answers:
I asked about {jIb}, {pob}, {loch} and {rol} after there was a conversation about it in the Learn Klingon Facebook group. {jIb} is only hair on the top of your head, {loch} is the hair on your upper lip, {rol} is the hair on your face that covers you chin/neck area, and {pob} is hair from the neck down. "Arm hair" is {DeS pob}. The words cover both the hair and the entire construction, so {rol} refers to a "beard" as well as the hair that makes up the beard.
However, "ear hair" or "nose hair" is talked about using {pob}, and {pob} *can* be used to talk about "face hair" or "head hair" but it would be considered very strange to do so.
I asked about fronting nouns marked with {-'e'} as described in the TKD Addendum. Marc said that {-'e'} fronted nouns are marked and it should only be used in extreme situations. He said one could, if they wanted to, use this all the time but it would be similar to an English speaking using Shakespearean English all the time.
SuStel asked on Facebook if {yaH} refers to any work place, or just military, and Marc said that it refers to any place where one does work.
I also asked Marc again about using {-Ha'} on adverbs. He said that if it makes sense, then {-Ha'} could be used. I offered the example of {tlhIngan Hol neHHa' vIjatlh} and he translated that as "I speak not only Klingon" as in "I speak many languages including Klingon". He say that {vajHa'} still doesn't make sense.
yItIv!
qurgh
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ta wa'DIch chenmoHlu'ta'bogh vImaS. vaj, naDev, mu'tay chu' mIllogh vImaS. ta wa'DIch velqa' luchenmoHqu'lu'chugh vaj vogh nargh Qagh. 'e' qIt. I prefer the original file, in our case the vocabulary pictures. The more replicas/alternate versions of the original files someone creates, the more are the probabilities that mistakes will appear. qunnoq On 29 Jul 2017 9:30 pm, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote: majQa'! My request for weather words made it to Maltz! Thank you, Maltz. Is {ghugh} a noun or a verb? The entry says (n) but the English gloss "vocalize" is a verb. I have a similar question about the weather words like {vung}, {cheq}, and {raw}, which are listed as verbs but glossed as nouns. Most of the existing weather words are verbs, so that's not too surprising, but I do want to double check. The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier). Puns: {yamtaw} "line" backwards is a rough transliteration of "what's my", as in the old show What's My Line? {jItuj'ep} "mummy". I groaned when I figured this one out, which is the sign of a quality pun. "I'm hot" ({jItuj}) + "ep" = Imhotep. {retlaw} "dent, indentation" backwards is "Walter", which suggests someone named "Walter Dent", but there's no obviously significant Walter Dent that I can find on Google... the mystery continues. {DabqI'} "mud, clay, putty" backwards is a rough transliteration of "Ichabod". Ichabod Mudd was the eponymous hero's sidekick on the old serial Captain Midnight. (This word's been around a while but I just found out the pun recently.) On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:57 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Greetings all,
I've posted the new Klingon words online at https://www.kli.org/activit ies/qepmey/qepa-chamah-losdich/qepa-chamah-losdich-new-words/
We'll be working to get these added to the KLI's New Word List on the website, but I wanted to get the pages out to you all as soon as possible.
I also got to ask Marc a few questions and documented his answers:
I asked about {jIb}, {pob}, {loch} and {rol} after there was a conversation about it in the Learn Klingon Facebook group. {jIb} is only hair on the top of your head, {loch} is the hair on your upper lip, {rol} is the hair on your face that covers you chin/neck area, and {pob} is hair from the neck down. "Arm hair" is {DeS pob}. The words cover both the hair and the entire construction, so {rol} refers to a "beard" as well as the hair that makes up the beard.
However, "ear hair" or "nose hair" is talked about using {pob}, and {pob} *can* be used to talk about "face hair" or "head hair" but it would be considered very strange to do so.
I asked about fronting nouns marked with {-'e'} as described in the TKD Addendum. Marc said that {-'e'} fronted nouns are marked and it should only be used in extreme situations. He said one could, if they wanted to, use this all the time but it would be similar to an English speaking using Shakespearean English all the time.
SuStel asked on Facebook if {yaH} refers to any work place, or just military, and Marc said that it refers to any place where one does work.
I also asked Marc again about using {-Ha'} on adverbs. He said that if it makes sense, then {-Ha'} could be used. I offered the example of {tlhIngan Hol neHHa' vIjatlh} and he translated that as "I speak not only Klingon" as in "I speak many languages including Klingon". He say that {vajHa'} still doesn't make sense.
yItIv!
qurgh
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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On Jul 29, 2017 1:30 PM, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote: Is {ghugh} a noun or a verb? The entry says (n) but the English gloss "vocalize" is a verb. I have a similar question about the weather words like {vung}, {cheq}, and {raw}, which are listed as verbs but glossed as nouns. Most of the existing weather words are verbs, so that's not too surprising, but I do want to double check. {ghugh} is a verb. All the weather words are verbs too. They are "to thunder", "to cyclone", "to hurricane", etc. qurgh
On Jul 29, 2017 6:49 PM, "Jeremy Silver" <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: Are {welwelwel} and {'Imyagh} nouns or verbs? They are sounds made by animals like "meow". qurgh
On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 8:14 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2017 6:49 PM, "Jeremy Silver" <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Are {welwelwel} and {'Imyagh} nouns or verbs?
They are sounds made by animals like "meow".
qurgh
The cat said, "meow". The cat meowed as I walked by. In English, we have noun and verb forms of animal sounds. How should we treat them in Klingon? ~naHQun
On Sat, 2017-07-29 at 14:30 -0400, nIqolay Q wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
In one of the previews on youtube I saw a sarcophagus/coffin with a Klingon in it.
On 7/30/2017 12:28 PM, DloraH wrote:
On Sat, 2017-07-29 at 14:30 -0400, nIqolay Q wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
In one of the previews on youtube I saw a sarcophagus/coffin with a Klingon in it.
Wasn't someone on Facebook writing a story about sarcophagi and mummies and asking Marc about them? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Another random tidbit. I was talking with Marc about something or other, and somebody nearby said "it's the little things..." Marc said he would say <<DochHommey>> for that in Klingon. I had generally only used <<Doch>> for physical objects, but this indicates its somewhat more general. pagh
On 29 July 2017 at 20:30, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
maSIvnISbe'. nev'aQ Duj tu'lu'bej. 'allaw' nev'aQ. (The sarcophagus is in the trailer. It's the thing that's levitating in one scene.) -- De'vID
bIlugh. wa' ben tlhIngan nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn'e' 'angpu' renwI'. ngugh peghtaHmo' De'vam, pu'jIn So'pu' 'ach tlhoy paS; tu'lu'pu' 'ej labqa'lu'ta'. http://trekcore.com/blog/2016/06/rumor-new-trek-2017-production-designer-cho... qen De'vam peghHa'lu'ta'. http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-discovery-gallery-opens-at-comic-c... nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc-Ship.jpg nev'aQ nagh beQ: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc.jpg ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 23:19 To: tlhIngan-Hol Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits On 29 July 2017 at 20:30, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
maSIvnISbe'. nev'aQ Duj tu'lu'bej. 'allaw' nev'aQ. (The sarcophagus is in the trailer. It's the thing that's levitating in one scene.) -- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Ah, so MO wasn't privy to any insider information about Klingon sarcophagi (and the discovery thereof). He just paid more attention to the rumors and trailers than I did. Do'Ha'. DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'. A few more puns: Duq - "be astonished, astounded, dumbfounded, shocked". Or one could say... "bowled over". ({Duq} also means a small bowl.) ghut - "predict, based on intuition or a wild guess". A "gut" feeling. On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
bIlugh. wa' ben tlhIngan nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn'e' 'angpu' renwI'. ngugh peghtaHmo' De'vam, pu'jIn So'pu' 'ach tlhoy paS; tu'lu'pu' 'ej labqa'lu'ta'.
http://trekcore.com/blog/2016/06/rumor-new-trek-2017- production-designer-chosen/
qen De'vam peghHa'lu'ta'.
http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-discovery- gallery-opens-at-comic-con
nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc-Ship.jpg
nev'aQ nagh beQ: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc.jpg
________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 23:19 To: tlhIngan-Hol Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits
On 29 July 2017 at 20:30, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
maSIvnISbe'. nev'aQ Duj tu'lu'bej. 'allaw' nev'aQ.
(The sarcophagus is in the trailer. It's the thing that's levitating in one scene.)
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I suspect Marc probably has some insight into the show, or is in contact with somebody who does. Otherwise, I doubt he'd reveal a word for "sarcophagus" and make it abundantly clear that {nev'aQ} was the word to use for the one seen in the show, since then there'd be a very big risk of contradicting whatever's already been recorded for Star Trek: Discovery (which I believe is all but the last few episodes by now). Hopefully, whoever's doing the translations for Discovery has been allowed to communicate with Marc at least to some degree, so that they can work out issues that would otherwise have been cumbersome but without making up new, non-vetted words. It's worth noting that Donatu V may also be relevant to the plot of Star Trek: Discovery, as this was the site of a confrontation between the Klingons and the Federation. This confrontation took place 23 years before The Trouble With Tribbles, which would put it about 12 years before Discovery, but it could still be referenced. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2017 03:08 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits Ah, so MO wasn't privy to any insider information about Klingon sarcophagi (and the discovery thereof). He just paid more attention to the rumors and trailers than I did. Do'Ha'. DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'. A few more puns: Duq - "be astonished, astounded, dumbfounded, shocked". Or one could say... "bowled over". ({Duq} also means a small bowl.) ghut - "predict, based on intuition or a wild guess". A "gut" feeling. On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: bIlugh. wa' ben tlhIngan nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn'e' 'angpu' renwI'. ngugh peghtaHmo' De'vam, pu'jIn So'pu' 'ach tlhoy paS; tu'lu'pu' 'ej labqa'lu'ta'. http://trekcore.com/blog/2016/06/rumor-new-trek-2017-production-designer-cho... qen De'vam peghHa'lu'ta'. http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-discovery-gallery-opens-at-comic-c... nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc-Ship.jpg nev'aQ nagh beQ: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc.jpg ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org>> on behalf of De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com<mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 23:19 To: tlhIngan-Hol Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits On 29 July 2017 at 20:30, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com<mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com>> wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
maSIvnISbe'. nev'aQ Duj tu'lu'bej. 'allaw' nev'aQ. (The sarcophagus is in the trailer. It's the thing that's levitating in one scene.) -- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
In the Learn Klingon Facebook group, someone posted that during a game of the Hokey Pokey, MO revealed that {muylIS} is "eyelash". Can anyone confirm this? https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearnKlingon/permalink/1386341591474053/?com... On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
I suspect Marc probably has some insight into the show, or is in contact with somebody who does. Otherwise, I doubt he'd reveal a word for "sarcophagus" and make it abundantly clear that {nev'aQ} was the word to use for the one seen in the show, since then there'd be a very big risk of contradicting whatever's already been recorded for Star Trek: Discovery (which I believe is all but the last few episodes by now).
Hopefully, whoever's doing the translations for Discovery has been allowed to communicate with Marc at least to some degree, so that they can work out issues that would otherwise have been cumbersome but without making up new, non-vetted words.
It's worth noting that Donatu V may also be relevant to the plot of Star Trek: Discovery, as this was the site of a confrontation between the Klingons and the Federation.
This confrontation took place 23 years before The Trouble With Tribbles, which would put it about 12 years before Discovery, but it could still be referenced.
//loghaD
------------------------------ *From:* tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2017 03:08 *To:* tlhingan-hol@kli.org
*Subject:* Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits
Ah, so MO wasn't privy to any insider information about Klingon sarcophagi (and the discovery thereof). He just paid more attention to the rumors and trailers than I did. Do'Ha'. DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'.
A few more puns: Duq - "be astonished, astounded, dumbfounded, shocked". Or one could say... "bowled over". ({Duq} also means a small bowl.)
ghut - "predict, based on intuition or a wild guess". A "gut" feeling.
On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
bIlugh. wa' ben tlhIngan nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn'e' 'angpu' renwI'. ngugh peghtaHmo' De'vam, pu'jIn So'pu' 'ach tlhoy paS; tu'lu'pu' 'ej labqa'lu'ta'.
http://trekcore.com/blog/2016/06/rumor-new-trek-2017-product ion-designer-chosen/
qen De'vam peghHa'lu'ta'.
http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-discovery-gallery- opens-at-comic-con
nev'aQ Duj pu'jIn: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc-Ship.jpg
nev'aQ nagh beQ: http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Photo-Sarc.jpg
________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 23:19 To: tlhIngan-Hol Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits
On 29 July 2017 at 20:30, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
maSIvnISbe'. nev'aQ Duj tu'lu'bej. 'allaw' nev'aQ.
(The sarcophagus is in the trailer. It's the thing that's levitating in one scene.)
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 5:11 PM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
In the Learn Klingon Facebook group, someone posted that during a game of the Hokey Pokey, MO revealed that {muylIS} is "eyelash". Can anyone confirm this?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearnKlingon/permalink/ 1386341591474053/?comment_id=1405196339588578
As the person who posted this, I can confirm this. qurgh
I witnessed this as well! He pointed to his eyelash. Shelly Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:21 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 5:11 PM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote: In the Learn Klingon Facebook group, someone posted that during a game of the Hokey Pokey, MO revealed that {muylIS} is "eyelash". Can anyone confirm this?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearnKlingon/permalink/1386341591474053/?com...
As the person who posted this, I can confirm this.
qurgh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:21 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote: As the person who posted this, I can confirm this. On 1 August 2017 at 00:22, Shelly Crouse-Monarez <shellycrouse_monarez@yahoo.com> wrote: I witnessed this as well! He pointed to his eyelash.
Did he point so specifically to his eyelash that we can be sure he didn't mean eyelid? (And what is the word for eyelid, btw...?) -- De'vID
De'vID:
On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:21 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote: As the person who posted this, I can confirm this. On 1 August 2017 at 00:22, Shelly Crouse-Monarez <shellycrouse_monarez@yahoo.com> wrote: I witnessed this as well! He pointed to his eyelash.
Did he point so specifically to his eyelash that we can be sure he didn't mean eyelid? (And what is the word for eyelid, btw...?) -- De'vID _______________________________________________ Good question. AFAIK there isn't one. As far as we know Klingons might view the eyelid + eyelashes as one body part (like the hair on your arm or armpit). Perhaps they have different words for upper vs. lower eyelids. Who knows? We may be being led astray by the pun: {muylIS} is *cilium* backwards (Latin for eyelash). (Note that the usual English pronunciation is /silium/ with an /s/, not the more authentic /kilium/.) -- Voragh
Someone asked in Federation Standard if he meant eyelash and he nodded. nejpu' is the word for eyelid. Shelly Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2017, at 6:35 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:21 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote: As the person who posted this, I can confirm this. On 1 August 2017 at 00:22, Shelly Crouse-Monarez <shellycrouse_monarez@yahoo.com> wrote: I witnessed this as well! He pointed to his eyelash.
Did he point so specifically to his eyelash that we can be sure he didn't mean eyelid?
(And what is the word for eyelid, btw...?)
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Aug 7, 2017, at 12:23 PM, Shelly Crouse-Monarez <shellycrouse_monarez@yahoo.com> wrote:
nejpu' is the word for eyelid.
What is the source for this word? (Are you sure you didn't misread a vocabulary lookup tool that was saying you searched for a word but didn't find it?) -- ghunchu'wI'
Hol 'ampaS does indeed respond to every search for X with {nejpu': X}. It then goes on to show you the Klingon word and definition (or lack thereof). It's not the first time someone has mistaken that as the definition. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net> Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 12:03:17 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits On Aug 7, 2017, at 12:23 PM, Shelly Crouse-Monarez <shellycrouse_monarez@yahoo.com> wrote:
nejpu' is the word for eyelid.
What is the source for this word? (Are you sure you didn't misread a vocabulary lookup tool that was saying you searched for a word but didn't find it?) -- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Lesson learned. Thanks! Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 7, 2017, at 11:11 AM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
Hol 'ampaS does indeed respond to every search for X with {nejpu': X}. It then goes on to show you the Klingon word and definition (or lack thereof). It's not the first time someone has mistaken that as the definition.
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net> Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 12:03:17 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' cha'maH loSDIch New words and some tidbits
On Aug 7, 2017, at 12:23 PM, Shelly Crouse-Monarez <shellycrouse_monarez@yahoo.com> wrote:
nejpu' is the word for eyelid.
What is the source for this word?
(Are you sure you didn't misread a vocabulary lookup tool that was saying you searched for a word but didn't find it?)
-- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
This reminds me... now we have words to describe a spiral there's a couple of quote translations I've been trying that have now become more possible. Let's see if you can identify them. mubechmoH ghaH. mubechmoH ghaH 'ej ghaH vIghaj. ghaH vIjeghpa' *nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq 'ej *'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq 'ej ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq vItlha'! This one's from a challenge from a few months ago. It's still in a too-close- to-the original-English form but like this it should be easier to identify: qIb 'ev tIng mI'rab DeS qa'rI' QatHa'Daq pu'jIn Hutlhbogh 'ej Hopqu'bogh mIch HachHa'Daq machbogh jul SuD 'ej wov'e' qImHa'lu'pu'bogh tu'lu'. julvamvo' SochmaH Hut'uy' qelI'qam, bavtaH ramchu'bogh 'ej machbogh yuQ SuD. ngem yoqmey lutlh bIH yuQvam nganpu' no''e'. lutlhchu'mo' nganpu'vam 'ej qech QaQqu' bIH mI'mey 'aghbogh 'ej yebDaq tlhaqmey'e' tuQlu'bogh 'e' luQubmo', maDuqqu'. So the plan is to make it easier to deal with and more Klingon by tying to figure out how to split it into shorter, hopefully more verb-based sentences. Would there be any preferred re-castings I should consider? Thanks for any opinions or pointers for improvement, mupwI'
mupwI':
mubechmoH ghaH. mubechmoH ghaH 'ej ghaH vIghaj.
Too much {ghaH} for my taste. I'm not saying it is wrong, but is unpleasant for the reader to be reading the same word over and over. The second {ghaH} is definitely unnecessary, and I think that the third could be omitted too.
ghaH vIjeghpa'
"Before I surrender him" ? If you wanted to say "before I surrender to him", I don't think {ghaH vIjeghpa'} is correct. You could just write {jIjeghpa'} for "before I surrender".
*nIbya'*
What is *nIbya'* ? Don't transliterate. As obvious as a transliteration can be for the one writing it, so un-obvious and confusing it can be for the reader. I still remember someone writting *'Ivrit* Hol, as if "Hebrew language" wasn't good enough. And I still remember wanting to smash my computer against the wall, trying to understand what he was talking about.
*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq 'ej *'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq 'ej ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq vItlha'!
"Next to the moons of *nIbya'* (whatever that is), and next to the great continuous spiralling movement of antares (same comments with regards to the transliteration), and next to the fires of hell I will chase him". I'm not sure about this, but I don't know whether the two {'ej} can be used the way you used them; the {'ej} joins sentences. I don't know whether the {*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq} and the {*'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq} can be regarded as full sentences which can be joined by the {'ej}. However, since I'm not sure about this, it would be nice if someone could shed some light on the matter. You could however, omit these two {'ej} in question, by just using the appropriate punctuation.. {*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq, *'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq, ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq vItlha'!} Finally I don't understand why, whoever does the chasing, chases whoever he chases "next to" the areas/locations mentioned in the text. Why doesn't he chase him "to" these areas ? Or maybe even "beyond" them ? qunnoq On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:40 AM, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
This reminds me... now we have words to describe a spiral there's a couple of quote translations I've been trying that have now become more possible. Let's see if you can identify them.
mubechmoH ghaH. mubechmoH ghaH 'ej ghaH vIghaj. ghaH vIjeghpa' *nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq 'ej *'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq 'ej ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq vItlha'!
This one's from a challenge from a few months ago. It's still in a too-close- to-the original-English form but like this it should be easier to identify:
qIb 'ev tIng mI'rab DeS qa'rI' QatHa'Daq pu'jIn Hutlhbogh 'ej Hopqu'bogh mIch HachHa'Daq machbogh jul SuD 'ej wov'e' qImHa'lu'pu'bogh tu'lu'. julvamvo' SochmaH Hut'uy' qelI'qam, bavtaH ramchu'bogh 'ej machbogh yuQ SuD. ngem yoqmey lutlh bIH yuQvam nganpu' no''e'. lutlhchu'mo' nganpu'vam 'ej qech QaQqu' bIH mI'mey 'aghbogh 'ej yebDaq tlhaqmey'e' tuQlu'bogh 'e' luQubmo', maDuqqu'.
So the plan is to make it easier to deal with and more Klingon by tying to figure out how to split it into shorter, hopefully more verb-based sentences. Would there be any preferred re-castings I should consider?
Thanks for any opinions or pointers for improvement, mupwI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
jIH:
I don't know whether the {*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq} and the {*'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq} can be regarded as full sentences which can be joined by the {'ej}.
On the other hand we *can* use the {'ej} to join two {-bogh}s like this: {Doqbogh 'ej law'bogh vIghro'}. I just remembered that. But I don't know whether we can join with the {'ej} a string of nouns and a {-bogh}. So, I wait for someone who surely knows, to clarify this matter. qunnoq On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 10:18 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
mupwI':
mubechmoH ghaH. mubechmoH ghaH 'ej ghaH vIghaj.
Too much {ghaH} for my taste. I'm not saying it is wrong, but is unpleasant for the reader to be reading the same word over and over. The second {ghaH} is definitely unnecessary, and I think that the third could be omitted too.
ghaH vIjeghpa'
"Before I surrender him" ? If you wanted to say "before I surrender to him", I don't think {ghaH vIjeghpa'} is correct. You could just write {jIjeghpa'} for "before I surrender".
*nIbya'*
What is *nIbya'* ? Don't transliterate. As obvious as a transliteration can be for the one writing it, so un-obvious and confusing it can be for the reader. I still remember someone writting *'Ivrit* Hol, as if "Hebrew language" wasn't good enough. And I still remember wanting to smash my computer against the wall, trying to understand what he was talking about.
*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq 'ej *'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq 'ej ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq vItlha'!
"Next to the moons of *nIbya'* (whatever that is), and next to the great continuous spiralling movement of antares (same comments with regards to the transliteration), and next to the fires of hell I will chase him".
I'm not sure about this, but I don't know whether the two {'ej} can be used the way you used them; the {'ej} joins sentences. I don't know whether the {*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq} and the {*'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq} can be regarded as full sentences which can be joined by the {'ej}. However, since I'm not sure about this, it would be nice if someone could shed some light on the matter.
You could however, omit these two {'ej} in question, by just using the appropriate punctuation..
{*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq, *'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq, ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq vItlha'!}
Finally I don't understand why, whoever does the chasing, chases whoever he chases "next to" the areas/locations mentioned in the text. Why doesn't he chase him "to" these areas ? Or maybe even "beyond" them ?
qunnoq
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:40 AM, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
This reminds me... now we have words to describe a spiral there's a couple of quote translations I've been trying that have now become more possible. Let's see if you can identify them.
mubechmoH ghaH. mubechmoH ghaH 'ej ghaH vIghaj. ghaH vIjeghpa' *nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq 'ej *'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq 'ej ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq vItlha'!
This one's from a challenge from a few months ago. It's still in a too-close- to-the original-English form but like this it should be easier to identify:
qIb 'ev tIng mI'rab DeS qa'rI' QatHa'Daq pu'jIn Hutlhbogh 'ej Hopqu'bogh mIch HachHa'Daq machbogh jul SuD 'ej wov'e' qImHa'lu'pu'bogh tu'lu'. julvamvo' SochmaH Hut'uy' qelI'qam, bavtaH ramchu'bogh 'ej machbogh yuQ SuD. ngem yoqmey lutlh bIH yuQvam nganpu' no''e'. lutlhchu'mo' nganpu'vam 'ej qech QaQqu' bIH mI'mey 'aghbogh 'ej yebDaq tlhaqmey'e' tuQlu'bogh 'e' luQubmo', maDuqqu'.
So the plan is to make it easier to deal with and more Klingon by tying to figure out how to split it into shorter, hopefully more verb-based sentences. Would there be any preferred re-castings I should consider?
Thanks for any opinions or pointers for improvement, mupwI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 08:29:29 BST mayqel qunenoS wrote:
jIH:
I don't know whether the {*nIbya'* maSmey retlhDaq} and the {*'anta'reS* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq} can be regarded as full sentences which can be joined by the {'ej}.
On the other hand we *can* use the {'ej} to join two {-bogh}s like this: {Doqbogh 'ej law'bogh vIghro'}. I just remembered that. But I don't know whether we can join with the {'ej} a string of nouns and a {-bogh}. So, I wait for someone who surely knows, to clarify this matter.
You're right, thank you for the reminder, forgot I was joining nouns. And it's back to the proverbial drawing-board in order to draft a new version. Maybe I should have either used {je} or repeated "I will chase him" each time. I'll try {je}. Maybe something like this is better. {mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj. ghaH vIjeghpa' *Nibia* maSmey retlhDaq, *Antares* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq, ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq je vItlha'!} I guess the quote could be reasonably obscure, but there are Trekkers to be found studying Klingon. It's from the Wrath of Khan movie, and Khan was paraphrasing the language of the book Moby Dick. So I'm trying to translate English from the 1800's with references to strange locations in space. Never let it be said I only take easy challenges. mupwI'
On 8/9/2017 5:57 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
{mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj. ghaH vIjeghpa'*Nibia* maSmey retlhDaq,*Antares* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq, ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq je vItlha'!}
*mubechmoH ghaH'e'.* Khan's line is /He tasks me./ I've always assumed this refers to Kirk exiling Khan to Ceti Alpha V. *muvummoH.* I see no reason for the *ghaH'e'* here; it doesn't reflect the English original. *mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj.* There is no indication in this what you mean by *vIghaj.* It just means /I had/have/will have him/her/it./ I also don't know if the English idiomatic meaning of /get in my power/ comes through, or the /therefore/ sense of English /and./ I'd recast this whole thing as *muvummoH; vaj vIghatlh.* You put the *ghaH vIjeghpa'* at the beginning of the long sentence, but Khan put it at the end in his English. You should do the same to reflect his emphasis. Subordinate clauses can go on either side of the sentence. I don't think *jegh* means the /let go/ sense of English /surrender;/ it means /stop trying./ You could just say *jIjeghpa'* /before I give up,/ or you could be more literal and say *nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'*/before I let him escape./ /*Nibia*/*maSmey retlhDaq* Hey, I asked for /around/ from Okrand and everybody said "But what does that mean?" This is what it means. *wejpuH.* I'd probably do this as /*Nibia*/*maSmey HayDaq*/to the area beyond Nibia's moons./ /*Antares*/*vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a'* I'm not fond of this; it looks like a very forced *-ghach*. How about just saying /*Antares*/*mI'rab'a'?* The end result: *muvummoH. muvummoH; vaj vIghatlh. /Nibia/ maSmey HayDaq, /Antares/ mI'rab'a' HayDaq, ghe''or qul HayDaq je vItlha' jIjeghpa'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
I'd probably do this as *Nibia** maSmey HayDaq** to the area * *> beyond Nibia's moons.*
At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally used with a point of reference "beyond X"". So, why did you write {nibia maSmey HayDaq} instead of {Hay nibia maSmeyDaq} ? qunnoq On 9 Aug 2017 2:27 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/9/2017 5:57 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
{mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj. ghaH vIjeghpa' **Nibia** maSmey retlhDaq, **Antares** vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq, ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq je vItlha'!}
*mubechmoH ghaH'e'.*
Khan's line is *He tasks me.* I've always assumed this refers to Kirk exiling Khan to Ceti Alpha V. *muvummoH.* I see no reason for the *ghaH'e'* here; it doesn't reflect the English original.
*mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj.*
There is no indication in this what you mean by *vIghaj.* It just means *I had/have/will have him/her/it.* I also don't know if the English idiomatic meaning of *get in my power* comes through, or the *therefore* sense of English *and.* I'd recast this whole thing as *muvummoH; vaj vIghatlh.*
You put the *ghaH vIjeghpa'* at the beginning of the long sentence, but Khan put it at the end in his English. You should do the same to reflect his emphasis. Subordinate clauses can go on either side of the sentence.
I don't think *jegh* means the *let go* sense of English *surrender;* it means *stop trying.* You could just say *jIjeghpa'* *before I give up,* or you could be more literal and say *nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'** before I let him escape.*
*Nibia** maSmey retlhDaq*
Hey, I asked for *around* from Okrand and everybody said "But what does that mean?" This is what it means. *wejpuH.*
I'd probably do this as *Nibia** maSmey HayDaq** to the area beyond Nibia's moons.*
*Antares** vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a'*
I'm not fond of this; it looks like a very forced *-ghach*. How about just saying *Antares** mI'rab'a'?*
The end result:
*muvummoH. muvummoH; vaj vIghatlh. Nibia maSmey HayDaq, Antares mI'rab'a' HayDaq, ghe''or qul HayDaq je vItlha' jIjeghpa'.*
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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On 8/9/2017 8:33 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
I'd probably do this as /*Nibia*/* maSmey HayDaq*/ to the area / /> beyond Nibia's moons./
At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally used with a point of reference "beyond X"".
So, why did you write {nibia maSmey HayDaq} instead of {Hay nibia maSmeyDaq} ?
Because */Nibia/ maSmey HayDaq* means /at the area beyond the moons of Nibia/ in exactly the same way that /*Nibia */*maSmey retlhDaq* means /at the area next to the moons of Nibia./ "Nibia's moons' area beyond." -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Is there any chance that 'oqranD, by saying the "beyond X", was describing an exception with regards to the use of {Hay}, as compared with the rest of the similar nouns ? (Dung, bIngDaq, retlh, etc..) Because I too (or is it "me too" ?), would use the {Hay} exactly as you did, i.e. placing it last. But this quote from 'oqranD makes me wonder, whether there is here an exception at work. qunnoq On 9 Aug 2017 4:19 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/9/2017 8:33 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
I'd probably do this as *Nibia** maSmey HayDaq** to the area * *> beyond Nibia's moons.*
At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally used with a point of reference "beyond X"".
So, why did you write {nibia maSmey HayDaq} instead of {Hay nibia maSmeyDaq} ?
Because *Nibia maSmey HayDaq* means *at the area beyond the moons of Nibia* in exactly the same way that *Nibia **maSmey retlhDaq* means *at the area next to the moons of Nibia.* "Nibia's moons' area beyond."
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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On 8/9/2017 9:27 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
Is there any chance that 'oqranD, by saying the "beyond X", was describing an exception with regards to the use of {Hay}, as compared with the rest of the similar nouns ? (Dung, bIngDaq, retlh, etc..)
Because I too (or is it "me too" ?), would use the {Hay} exactly as you did, i.e. placing it last. But this quote from 'oqranD makes me wonder, whether there is here an exception at work.
/I too./ I think he was just explaining how area nouns work, in case we weren't sure or were thinking the word was an adjective. Maybe *Hay* is more restrictive than other area nouns: sometimes you might use the word *DungDaq* to mean /upward,/ but Okrand might be saying that you don't use *Hay* all by itself; you wouldn't say *HayDaq* to mean an unspecified /to the beyond./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally used with a point of reference "beyond X"".
I wonder if Okrand invented this word because of the title of the movie "Star Trek Beyond"? -- De'vID
On 8/9/2017 11:17 AM, De'vID wrote:
On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS<mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally used with a point of reference "beyond X"". I wonder if Okrand invented this word because of the title of the movie "Star Trek Beyond"?
Beyond what? :-P -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Aug 9, 2017 11:17 AM, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote: On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally used with a point of reference "beyond X"".
I wonder if Okrand invented this word because of the title of the movie "Star Trek Beyond"? It was a word on the wishlist. I believe he made it for us. qurgh
Am 09.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
On Aug 9, 2017 11:17 AM, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: > At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally > used with a point of reference "beyond X"".
I wonder if Okrand invented this word because of the title of the movie "Star Trek Beyond"?
It was a word on the wishlist. I believe he made it for us.
...probably because someobody wanted to translate that movie title. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Aug 9, 2017 11:29 AM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote: Am 09.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
On Aug 9, 2017 11:17 AM, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto: de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: > At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally > used with a point of reference "beyond X"".
I wonder if Okrand invented this word because of the title of the movie "Star Trek Beyond"?
It was a word on the wishlist. I believe he made it for us.
...probably because someobody wanted to translate that movie title. I'd have to check the Facebook post, but it was from a discussion about different locations that people wanted. I believe "area nearby" was also in that pack, but that can be said using {Sum}. The person may have wanted it for the title, but it didn't seem that way to me. qurgh
The new word {Hay} is "area beyond". A very simple way to translate the latest movie title would be {Hov leng Hay} "Area beyond Star Trek" or even with a column to separate the words: {Hov leng: Hay} "Star Trek: The Area beyond" What do you think? (FYI: the title was coind by Simon Pegg because he noticed the director was going to take Star Tek "beyond", which means going to places where Star Trek has never been.) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 16:35:32 BST qurgh lungqIj wrote:
On Aug 9, 2017 11:29 AM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 09.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
On Aug 9, 2017 11:17 AM, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto:
de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote: On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com
<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: > At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as
It was a word on the wishlist. I believe he made it for us.
...probably because someobody wanted to translate that movie title.
Might have mentioned this one on this list myself when you originally asked, but unrelated to the movie title. Wanted something along the lines of: HuDmey bIr HayDaq bIghHa'mey Hop tu'lu'. But am still working on how to call the mountains misty as well. mupwI'
{vI'laS} means "fog, mist". {HuDmey'e' velbogh vI'laS}, perhaps? On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 16:35:32 BST qurgh lungqIj wrote:
On Aug 9, 2017 11:29 AM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 09.08.2017 um 17:26 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
On Aug 9, 2017 11:17 AM, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto:
de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote: On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com
<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: > At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as
It was a word on the wishlist. I believe he made it for us.
...probably because someobody wanted to translate that movie title.
Might have mentioned this one on this list myself when you originally asked, but unrelated to the movie title.
Wanted something along the lines of: HuDmey bIr HayDaq bIghHa'mey Hop tu'lu'.
But am still working on how to call the mountains misty as well.
mupwI'
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On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 17:10:58 BST nIqolay Q wrote:
{vI'laS} means "fog, mist". {HuDmey'e' velbogh vI'laS}, perhaps?
Did something like that originally IIRC. But can we do something like this too? {HuDmey bIr'e' velbogh vI'laS} Thanks, mupwI'
On 8/9/2017 12:10 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:
{vI'laS} means "fog, mist". {HuDmey'e' velbogh vI'laS}, perhaps?
Wanted something along the lines of: HuDmey bIr HayDaq bIghHa'mey Hop tu'lu'.
But am still working on how to call the mountains misty as well.
Tolkien also called them the Mountains of Mist. Just say *vI'laS HuD.* Where Tolkien uses the word /dungeons/ in the poem, he doesn't mean the prison kind; he's referring to underground chambers. A literal translation (without attempting to reproduce the poetry): *vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq wutlh pa'mey jaQDaq DIS qanDaq 'IDnar qol'om wov wInejmeH malengnISchoH qaSpa' jajlo'.* Best I could do for /enchanted gold/ without getting unwieldy. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
*vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq*
"At the far beyond of the cold mountains of mist" Is it possible for {Hay} and the similar nouns (Dung, bIngDaq, retlh, etc), to have be-verbs used as adjectives ? qunnoq On 9 Aug 2017 7:35 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: On 8/9/2017 12:10 PM, nIqolay Q wrote: {vI'laS} means "fog, mist". {HuDmey'e' velbogh vI'laS}, perhaps?
Wanted something along the lines of: HuDmey bIr HayDaq bIghHa'mey Hop tu'lu'.
But am still working on how to call the mountains misty as well.
Tolkien also called them the Mountains of Mist. Just say *vI'laS HuD.* Where Tolkien uses the word *dungeons* in the poem, he doesn't mean the prison kind; he's referring to underground chambers. A literal translation (without attempting to reproduce the poetry): *vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq wutlh pa'mey jaQDaq DIS qanDaq 'IDnar qol'om wov wInejmeH malengnISchoH qaSpa' jajlo'.* Best I could do for *enchanted gold* without getting unwieldy. -- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 8/9/2017 1:31 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
*vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq*
"At the far beyond of the cold mountains of mist"
Is it possible for {Hay} and the similar nouns (Dung, bIngDaq, retlh, etc), to have be-verbs used as adjectives ?
Why not? They're just nouns. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
maj ! And finally, would you accept {pov Dung}, for the "area above is excellent" ? qunnoq On 9 Aug 2017 8:34 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/9/2017 1:31 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
*vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq*
"At the far beyond of the cold mountains of mist"
Is it possible for {Hay} and the similar nouns (Dung, bIngDaq, retlh, etc), to have be-verbs used as adjectives ?
Why not? They're just nouns.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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On 8/9/2017 1:39 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
maj !
And finally, would you accept {pov Dung}, for the "area above is excellent" ?
Yes, with the caveat that if *Hay* typically requires a companion noun, maaaaaaaaybe the other "area" nouns do too, but I wouldn't hold anyone to it, including myself. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 1:46 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/9/2017 1:39 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
maj !
And finally, would you accept {pov Dung}, for the "area above is excellent" ?
Yes, with the caveat that if *Hay* typically requires a companion noun, maaaaaaaaybe the other "area" nouns do too, but I wouldn't hold anyone to it, including myself.
It might just be a semantic issue. Other locational nouns seem to either imply a direction or are used with an implied {naDev}, so something like {DungDaq} on its own could perhaps be used for "upwards, towards a general above-area" or "above here". But the notion of "beyond" doesn't really imply a direction, and it's defined relative to "here" so you'd need to reference a second point. With the right context you could probably get away with a lone {Hay}. {HayDaq ngem wIchIq} makes sense to me, for instance.
mupwI':
Antares vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' SuStel: I'm not fond of this; it looks like a very forced -ghach. How about just saying Antares mI'rab'a'
What do you mean by saying "a very forced -ghach" ? qunnoq On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 9:01 PM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 1:46 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/9/2017 1:39 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
maj !
And finally, would you accept {pov Dung}, for the "area above is excellent" ?
Yes, with the caveat that if Hay typically requires a companion noun, maaaaaaaaybe the other "area" nouns do too, but I wouldn't hold anyone to it, including myself.
It might just be a semantic issue. Other locational nouns seem to either imply a direction or are used with an implied {naDev}, so something like {DungDaq} on its own could perhaps be used for "upwards, towards a general above-area" or "above here". But the notion of "beyond" doesn't really imply a direction, and it's defined relative to "here" so you'd need to reference a second point. With the right context you could probably get away with a lone {Hay}. {HayDaq ngem wIchIq} makes sense to me, for instance.
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On 8/16/2017 4:50 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
mupwI':
Antares vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' SuStel: I'm not fond of this; it looks like a very forced -ghach. How about just saying Antares mI'rab'a' What do you mean by saying "a very forced -ghach" ?
Someone was trying hard to turn *vIH* into a noun and turned to the only tool they could find that does that in vaguely the right way. *-ghach* is meant to be used when you're primarily interested in the intervening verb suffix. People often toss a *-taH* in there just to satisfy the requirement that there be a suffix there, and this is bad practice. When you combine this verb with this suffix, what is the "thing" that results? That's what *-ghach* is supposed to answer. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 17:34:32 BST SuStel wrote:
Tolkien also called them the Mountains of Mist. Just say *vI'laS HuD.*
Where Tolkien uses the word /dungeons/ in the poem, he doesn't mean the prison kind; he's referring to underground chambers.
A literal translation (without attempting to reproduce the poetry):
*vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq wutlh pa'mey jaQDaq DIS qanDaq 'IDnar qol'om wov wInejmeH malengnISchoH qaSpa' jajlo'.*
That's a very good start I think. But it's not merely poetry, it's a song that needs to rhyme and fit the music. Glad there's a short version of the song, with these lyrics: Far over the Misty Mountains cold, To dungeons deep, and caverns old; We must away, ere break of day, To find our long, forgotten gold. The Pines were roaring, on the heights; The Winds were moaning, in the night; The Fire was red, it flaming spread; The Trees like Torches, blazed with light. And currently lurking a google search away on youtube (but who knows how long for, or who in the world can access it). So you'll want the 3 minute one after searching "far over the misty mountains cold". {vI'laSHom HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq pa'mey jaQDaq, ghIq DIS qanDaq majaHnISmo' qaSpa' jajlo' qol'ommaj wISam wIneHmo' jenwI'meyDaq jachtaH Sormey; qaStaHvIS ram, bey tlhuD SuSmey; Doqqu'choH qul, tInqu'choH qul; meQbogh Sechmey wov rur Sormey.} Hopefully any problems can be covered by artistic licence.
On 8/9/2017 6:40 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
A literal translation (without attempting to reproduce the poetry):
*vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq wutlh pa'mey jaQDaq DIS qanDaq 'IDnar qol'om wov wInejmeH malengnISchoH qaSpa' jajlo'.*
That's a very good start I think.
But it's not merely poetry, it's a song that needs to rhyme and fit the music.
Poetry includes rhyme and meter. I was explicitly translating into prose. I actively dislike rhyming in Klingon, since you're mostly just repeating or rhyming suffixes. I prefer alliterating, though making sure the stress falls on the alliterating syllables is tough with *qaghwI'* stealing the stress all the time. I have yet to find a poetic form that especially suits Klingon. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
muDuQ bomvam ! tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI'vaD Damughta' 'e' vIQuch. majQa' ! vIbomchu'meH bomvam vIghojlI' ;) On the other hand, I agree with SuStel on rhyming in Klingon - I have a couple of songs I'd like to translate at some point, but it does feel like mixing and matching suffixes at the end of each line... It would be great if at some point we had access to some cannon, full Klingon songs, so we might figure out the rules and best practices for klingon songwriting. 2017-08-10 15:36 GMT+02:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
On 8/9/2017 6:40 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
A literal translation (without attempting to reproduce the poetry):
*vI'laS HuDmey bIr Hay HopDaq wutlh pa'mey jaQDaq DIS qanDaq 'IDnar qol'om wov wInejmeH malengnISchoH qaSpa' jajlo'.*
That's a very good start I think.
But it's not merely poetry, it's a song that needs to rhyme and fit the music.
Poetry includes rhyme and meter. I was explicitly translating into prose.
I actively dislike rhyming in Klingon, since you're mostly just repeating or rhyming suffixes. I prefer alliterating, though making sure the stress falls on the alliterating syllables is tough with *qaghwI'* stealing the stress all the time.
I have yet to find a poetic form that especially suits Klingon.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Aurélie Demonchaux < demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> wrote:
muDuQ bomvam !
tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI'vaD Damughta' 'e' vIQuch. majQa' !
vIbomchu'meH bomvam vIghojlI' ;)
On the other hand, I agree with SuStel on rhyming in Klingon - I have a couple of songs I'd like to translate at some point, but it does feel like mixing and matching suffixes at the end of each line...
It would be great if at some point we had access to some cannon, full Klingon songs, so we might figure out the rules and best practices for klingon songwriting.
I once translated the inscription over the gates of Hell in Dante's Inferno, keeping the rhyme scheme and the eleven-syllable lines. It was fun to do (and I didn't rhyme a suffix with itself) but it is difficult. (If you search the mailing list archives for "Dante" you can find my original draft without any of the suggested corrections; I don't have the revised edition saved on this computer.) I think the only canon song (as opposed to play or poem) is the Warrior's Anthem, which doesn't really rhyme or have much of a meter. It's just kind of chanted monotonically. The paq'batlh is written in three-line stanzas, which is described as a common thing. To be honest, I think it's probably okay to just go ahead and invent your own poetic or lyrical form as long as you aren't trying to claim it as Okrandian-level canon. Think of it as "Klingon culture fanfiction" and go nuts. There's probably hundreds of kinds of poems in the history of the Empire. It's not like Maltz is going to look at your style and say "Klingons have never done that, anytime, anywhere". He's not a poet!
On Aug 10, 2017, at 19:16, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the only canon song (as opposed to play or poem) is the Warrior's Anthem, which doesn't really rhyme or have much of a meter. It's just kind of chanted monotonically.
It *does* have rhyme and meter, though, at least at the beginning: puqbe'pu'/'Iw (admittedly a rather slant rhyme), maHoHchu'/wovqu', as well as the the rhythmic similarities between the second-last and third-last lines. -SapIr
On 8/10/2017 12:24 PM, kechpaja@comcast.net wrote:
On Aug 10, 2017, at 19:16, nIqolay Q<niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the only canon song (as opposed to play or poem) is the Warrior's Anthem, which doesn't really rhyme or have much of a meter. It's just kind of chanted monotonically. It*does* have rhyme and meter, though, at least at the beginning: puqbe'pu'/'Iw (admittedly a rather slant rhyme), maHoHchu'/wovqu', as well as the the rhythmic similarities between the second-last and third-last lines.
It's an odd duck. *Qoy qeylIS puqloD** **Qoy puqbe'pu'** **yoHbogh matlhbogh je SuvwI'** **Say'moHchu' may' 'Iw** **maSuv manong 'ej maHoHchu'** **nI'be' yInmaj 'ach wovqu'** **batlh maHeghbej 'ej yo' qIjDaq** **vavpu'ma' DImuvpa' reH maSuvtaHqu'** **mamevQo' maSuvtaH ma'ov* The rhymes you point out are there, and the stresses are really weird. Lemme rewrite this, ignoring the usual transcription system rules about capital letters, and instead capitalize stressed syllables, as sung by the actors. *QOY QEY-lis PUQ-LOD** **QOY PUQ-be'PU...U'** **YOH-bogh MATLH-bogh JE suv-WI'** **SAY'-moh-CHU' may' 'IW** **ma-SUV ma-NONG 'ej MA-hoh-CHU'** **ni'-BE' yinMAJ 'ach WOV-QU'** **BATLH ma-HEGH-bej 'EJ yo' QIJ-daq** **VAV-pu'ma' DI-muv-pa' REH ma-suv-TAH-qu'** **ma-MEV-qo' ma-SUV-taH ma-'OV* Writing this the same way, but using the stress rules from TKD, understanding that the rules there are very rudimentary, we get this: *qoy qey-LIS puq-LOD** **qoy puq-BE'-PU'** **YOH-bogh MATLH-bogh je suv-WI'** **SAY'-moh-CHU' MAY' 'IW** **ma-SUV ma-NONG 'ej ma-HOH-chu'** **NI'-be' YIN-maj 'ach WOV-qu'** **BATLH ma-HEGH-bej 'ej YO' QIJ-daq** **vav-PU'-MA' di-MUV-pa' REH ma-SUV-tah-QU'** **ma-MEV-qo' ma-SUV-taH ma-'OV* Finally, here is how I would pronounce it as prose. Through everything Okrand has ever spoken aloud, my stress matches his. I'm not saying I'm right, or that Okrand's pronunciation must be the proper Klingon pronunciation, just that I think I can reproduce what Okrand would say. *QOY QEY-lis PUQ-lod** **QOY puq-BE'-PU'** **YOH-bogh MATLH-bogh je suv-WI'** **SAY'-moH-CHU' MAY' 'iw** **ma-SUV ma-NONG 'ej ma-hoh-CHU'** **NI'-BE' YIN-maj 'ach wov-QU'** **BATLH ma-HEGH-bej 'ej YO' QIJ-daq** **vav-PU'-MA' DI-muv-PA' REH ma-SUV-taH-QU'** **ma-mev-QO' ma-SUV-taH ma-'OV* If this song is representative of Klingon music, or at least of anthems of this sort, then Klingon music really lets loose with stress, but it's otherwise not remarkable compared to Western music (and that's because it was written by Western writers in English and translated by Okrand; in real life it is not an original Klingon composition). -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I had a thought, not very well developed, but possibly consider pararhymes? Wilfred Owens used that a lot, and while a lot of his output ended up being sort of ANTI-war, well, there's the war focus that is maybe Klingon enough to inspire attempts at Klingon poetry using pararhyme? Russ ________________________________ From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Misty mountains cold... On 8/9/2017 6:40 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
I actively dislike rhyming in Klingon, since you're mostly just repeating or rhyming suffixes. I prefer alliterating, though making sure the stress falls on the alliterating syllables is tough with qaghwI' stealing the stress all the time.
I have yet to find a poetic form that especially suits Klingon.
The 23rd-century love song “Beyond Antares” was sung by Uhura twice in TOS "The Conscience of the King" and TOS "The Changeling". It begins: "The skies are green and glowing where my heart is..." --Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of qurgh lungqIj On Aug 9, 2017 11:17 AM, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com<mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote: On 9 August 2017 at 14:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
At the notes given at the last qep'a', the {Hay} was explained as "normally used with a point of reference "beyond X"". I wonder if Okrand invented this word because of the title of the movie "Star Trek Beyond"?
It was a word on the wishlist. I believe he made it for us. qurgh
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 12:27:22 BST SuStel wrote:
On 8/9/2017 5:57 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
{mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj. ghaH vIjeghpa'*Nibia* maSmey retlhDaq,*Antares* vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a' retlhDaq, ghe''or qulmey retlhDaq je vItlha'!}
*mubechmoH ghaH'e'.*
Khan's line is /He tasks me./ I've always assumed this refers to Kirk exiling Khan to Ceti Alpha V. *muvummoH.* I see no reason for the *ghaH'e'* here; it doesn't reflect the English original.
I thought the "he" was emphasized a bit in the original, and that it needed to be marked to clarify that it is that "he" that is the topic of the parts that follow. Sometimes if there are a bunch of possible interpretaions, the context is not clear and needs making more obvious. I had to do a bit of digging and found various meanings for "He tasks me", and believe I was right in the "subject-to-hardship" sense. Because Ceti Alpha V became uninabitable, Khan lost his wife and suffered hardship and I'd say "causes to suffer" still works.
*mubechmoH 'ej vIghaj.*
There is no indication in this what you mean by *vIghaj.* It just means /I had/have/will have him/her/it./ I also don't know if the English idiomatic meaning of /get in my power/ comes through, or the /therefore/ sense of English /and./ I'd recast this whole thing as *muvummoH; vaj vIghatlh.*
I agree {ghaj} is probably too general, but I'm not sure how clearly marking the topic in the previous clause does not indicate the topic of the following one. But I'm not sure "dominate" is what I want here, I am unaware of the idiomatic meaning you mention. {jon} might work better. Or maybe {chargh}. Or maybe just {HoH}. It has to work for a great white whale, whether or not it has the word "Enterprise" stamped on the side.
You put the *ghaH vIjeghpa'* at the beginning of the long sentence, but Khan put it at the end in his English. You should do the same to reflect his emphasis. Subordinate clauses can go on either side of the sentence.
I don't think *jegh* means the /let go/ sense of English /surrender;/ it means /stop trying./ You could just say *jIjeghpa'* /before I give up,/ or you could be more literal and say *nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'*/before I let him escape./
I've seen jegh used like this (probably equally incorrectly), but I agree {nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'} carries the meaning.
/*Nibia*/*maSmey retlhDaq*
Hey, I asked for /around/ from Okrand and everybody said "But what does that mean?" This is what it means. *wejpuH.*
English is far too slippery at times, "around" can mean a few things. Okrand in TKD has as an English example, something about "Dogs chasing cats around canaries" but promptly doesnt say how one goes about saying that. "Around" could mean something like "in the vicinity of", and "beside" carries that meaning, so I cheated a bit. But it could also mean something like following a circular/curved course (that's not necessarily an orbit) past (not to) cape horn and some whirlpool somewhere. I couldn't think of a way to express that at the time.
I'd probably do this as /*Nibia*/*maSmey HayDaq*/to the area beyond Nibia's moons./
Looks like an excuse to use another shiny new word, I'll go for it.
/*Antares*/*vertaHbogh vIHtaHghach'a'*
I'm not fond of this; it looks like a very forced *-ghach*. How about just saying /*Antares*/*mI'rab'a'?*
It probably could be fairly forced as I was trying for something that would work for both a whirlpool and some kind of strange flow of something near Antares. But I'm not sure a {mI'rab} connotes the necessary movement. I think it needs to be something that will {ver} like a {SuS'a'}, but that also works for water.
The end result:
*muvummoH. muvummoH; vaj vIghatlh. /Nibia/ maSmey HayDaq, /Antares/ mI'rab'a' HayDaq, ghe''or qul HayDaq je vItlha' jIjeghpa'.*
Thanks for your input. How about this?: {mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIchargh. *Nibia* maSmey HayDaq, *Antares* vertaHwI''a' HoSghaj HayDaq, ghe''or qulmey HayDaq je vItlha'; nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'!} That said that movie's great for quotes, so here's another: {Qo'! ...Qo'! bInarghlaHbe'. ghe''or tIqvo', SoHvaD jIDuQ; jImuSchu'mo', SoHvaD tlhuHwIj Qav vItuy'.} I want this to remain poetic, but replacing {ghe''or tIqvo'} with {ghe''or qoDvo'} is already considered. I'm also choosing {SoHvaD jIDuQ} on purpose to indicate a stab in your general direction as opposed to a direct hit. Does this work? Thanks, mupwI'
On 8/9/2017 10:03 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
{Qo'! ...Qo'! bInarghlaHbe'. ghe''or tIqvo', SoHvaD jIDuQ; jImuSchu'mo', SoHvaD tlhuHwIj Qav vItuy'.}
I want this to remain poetic, but replacing {ghe''or tIqvo'} with {ghe''or qoDvo'} is already considered. I'm also choosing {SoHvaD jIDuQ} on purpose to indicate a stab in your general direction as opposed to a direct hit. Does this work?
I can go with *tIq;* Klingons talk about hearts non-literally all the time. To me, *SoHvaD jIDuQ* says /I stab for your benefit./ *-vaD* doesn't have any sense of /general direction./ You can just use a locative: *SoHDaq jIDuQ* /I stab at/to you./ If you had said *qaDuQ* I would agree it was wrong. You might also want to change the second *SoHvaD* to *SoHDaq*. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
I had to do a bit of digging and found various meanings for "He tasks me", and believe I was right in the "subject-to-hardship" sense. Because Ceti Alpha V became uninabitable, Khan lost his wife and suffered hardship and I'd say "causes to suffer" still works.
{ghong}, perhaps? Other options (of varying literalness) might be {Doy'moH}, {qaD}, {QIH}, or {tlhoy vummoH}. (Thesaurus.com - a Klingon translator's second-best friend.)
It probably could be fairly forced as I was trying for something that would work for both a whirlpool and some kind of strange flow of something near Antares. But I'm not sure a {mI'rab} connotes the necessary movement. I think it needs to be something that will {ver} like a {SuS'a'}, but that also works for water.
How about {verwI''a'}? Explicitly using the verb root (perhaps with a {-taH} too) might convey the notion of movement more than {mI'rab} does.
On 8/9/2017 10:54 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
(Thesaurus.com - a Klingon translator's second-best friend.)
maqpu'ghachvam teH law' Hoch teH puS! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 15:54:45 BST nIqolay Q wrote:
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
I had to do a bit of digging and found various meanings for "He tasks me", and believe I was right in the "subject-to-hardship" sense. Because Ceti Alpha V became uninabitable, Khan lost his wife and suffered hardship and I'd say "causes to suffer" still works.
{ghong}, perhaps? Other options (of varying literalness) might be {Doy'moH}, {qaD}, {QIH}, or {tlhoy vummoH}.
Thanks for these suggestions, I originally considered {qaD} as a possible candidate and will add {QIH} to the list.
(Thesaurus.com - a Klingon translator's second-best friend.)
Have several thesauri? thesauruses? yes them... on my desktop. But do they define words as used in the 1800s?
How about {verwI''a'}? Explicitly using the verb root (perhaps with a {-taH} too) might convey the notion of movement more than {mI'rab} does.
Already ahead of you on this one, but a second vote for this construction is welcome. The latest draft is this one: {mubechmoH ghaH'e'. mubechmoH 'ej vIchargh. *Nibia* maSmey HayDaq, *Antares* vertaHwI''a' HoSghaj HayDaq, ghe''or qulmey HayDaq je vItlha'; nargh 'e' vIchaw'pa'!} I may yet change {chargh} to {jon} or {HoH}. Thanks, mupwI'
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Have several thesauri? thesauruses? yes them... on my desktop. But do they define words as used in the 1800s?
Khan's use of "task" is still current. Merriam-Webster.com has the definition "to oppress with great labor". Dictionary.com gives "to subject to severe or excessive labor or exertion; put a strain upon (powers, resources, etc.)". The OED website says "Make great demands on (someone's resources or abilities)". None of those are listed as archaic meanings.
On Aug 7, 2017, at 9:35 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Did he point so specifically to his eyelash that we can be sure he didn't mean eyelid?
The lack of a word for eyelashes had been brought up during an earlier brief conversation about hair -- body, head, facial, etc. Even if he hadn't said so explicitly, it would have been obvious that it's what he meant. -- ghunchu'wI'
On 30 July 2017 at 23:19, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29 July 2017 at 20:30, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The odd note about {nev'aQ} makes me wonder if there's going to be a scene with a Klingon sarcophagus in space in Star Trek: Discovery (that is, assuming MO did get asked to do some Klingon for it after all, as someone suggested earlier).
maSIvnISbe'. nev'aQ Duj tu'lu'bej. 'allaw' nev'aQ.
(The sarcophagus is in the trailer. It's the thing that's levitating in one scene.)
Actually, looking at the "odd note", what's in the trailer seems to be a {nebeylI'} rather than a {nev'aQ}. -- De'vID
On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:57 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
I also asked Marc again about using {-Ha'} on adverbs. He said that if it makes sense, then {-Ha'} could be used. I offered the example of {tlhIngan Hol neHHa' vIjatlh} and he translated that as "I speak not only Klingon" as in "I speak many languages including Klingon". He say that {vajHa'} still doesn't make sense.
I was thinking about this passage again recently, and I realized something that no one else has commented on. While Klingons and their language are often associated with rough speech and rougher sounds, I've discovered that tlhIngan Hol may allow for a softer tone than previously expected... *qaStaH nuq jay'Ha'* *What the heck is going on here?* *mIch 'elpu' jay'Ha'* *Aw, geez, they've entered the sector...* *loj qagh jay'Ha'* *Dangit, there's no more gagh.* *naDev yIHmey law'qu' tu'lu' jay'Ha'* *Golly, that's a lot of tribbles!* *nuch quvHa' SoH jay'Ha'* *You're a no-good bum!* *qaH nuHIvchoH jay'Ha'* *Goodness gracious, sir, they're starting the attack!* Obviously, this will have profound consequences for the way we think about the language. (*jIqID.*)
participants (23)
-
Alan Anderson -
Anthony Appleyard -
Aurélie Demonchaux -
Brent Kesler -
David Holt -
De'vID -
DloraH -
Felix Malmenbeck -
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh
-
Jeremy Silver -
kechpaja＠comcast.net -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
nIqolay Q -
qurgh lungqIj -
RE Andeen -
Russ Perry, Jr. -
Shelly Crouse-Monarez -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Tad Stauffer -
Tim Stoffel