I have attempted a translation of another classical poem. This time, it's "The Second Coming", by William Butler Yeats. The version of the poem I used can be found here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290 cha'DIch ghoS [1] Sachbogh ghoDaq tlhe'taHqu' 'oH. wamwI' QoylaHbe' wammeH bo'Degh. Sab Dochmey. ngaDlaHbe'taH botlh. qo'Daq chutmey Hutlhbogh nugh'e' 'uchHa'lu'. bIQ'a''e' HurghmoHbogh 'Iw 'uchHa'lu' 'ej Dat chuntaHghach tay SoD bIQ'a'. pagh Har nIvqu'wI'pu' 'ach pe'vIl nongqu' QIvqu'wI'pu'. tugh vay' 'anglu'bej. tugh cha'DIch ghoSbej. cha'DIch ghoS! mu'meyvetlh vIjatlhpu'DI' SIbI' mInDu'wIj Suj mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh qo' qa'. Deb voghDaq QIt 'uSDu'Daj vIHmoH vIghro''a' porgh loD nach je ghajbogh tu'qom. pagh lu'agh mInDu'Daj 'ej vupbe' bIH. jul lurur. Dechbogh retlhDajDaq jIr Deb bo'Deghmey QeH QIbmey. pumqa' QIb 'ach cha'SaD DIS poH QongwI' let najHa'moHpu' Qombogh ghu QongDaq DaH 'e' vISov. [2] 'ej tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naQbe' 'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq yItlI'. [3] [1] I'm basing this on the controversial canon from the SkyBox card where {wa'DIch} was used as an adverbial for "the first time". I wanted to keep the idea of "second" in the translation, because of the religious connotations of the "second coming", so I didn't use {ghoSqa'}. I didn't use something like {ghoSpu'ghach cha'DIch} since I wanted to avoid {-ghach} as much as possible (though I still ended up using it elsewhere). {cha'logh ghoS} suggests both comings, not just the second one. So I'm rolling the dice on the adverbial {-DIch}. [2] {Qom} isn't the right word here, but earthquakes at least fit the apocalyptic tone, and there's not much else to use. Maybe one of the airplane movement verbs? [3] I would appreciate any suggestions on how to better translate "slouch". {yIt} just doesn't seem to cut it.
For "Spiritus Mundi" he wrote "qo' qa'" = "world's spirit". Try "qo' qa' paq"? In the original English, the context and the italics seem to show that "Spiritus Mundi" is a book title and not directly a spirit. Or "qo' qa'pu' paq"?: the Latin word "spiritus" could also be a plural, since it is 4th declension. ----Original message----
From : niqolay0@gmail.com Date : 08/06/2017 - 05:02 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : [tlhIngan Hol] The Second Coming I have attempted a translation of another classical poem. This time, it's "The Second Coming", by William Butler Yeats. The version of the poem I used can be found here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290 cha'DIch ghoS ...
On 6/8/2017 3:53 AM, Anthony Appleyard wrote:
For "Spiritus Mundi" he wrote "qo' qa'" = "world's spirit". Try "qo' qa' paq"? In the original English, the context and the italics seem to show that "Spiritus Mundi" is a book title and not directly a spirit. Or "qo' qa'pu' paq"?: the Latin word "spiritus" could also be a plural, since it is 4th declension.
The italics are used to indicate that a foreign language phrase is being used, not a book title. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Uhh, sorry. I thought that "When a vast image out of _Spiritus Mundi_'' / Troubles my sight:" meant "when a vast image or object such as is described in the book _Spiritus Mundi_ troubles my sight:.". ----Original message----
From : sustel@trimboli.name Date : 08/06/2017 - 15:43 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The Second Coming
On 6/8/2017 3:53 AM, Anthony Appleyard wrote:
For "Spiritus Mundi" he wrote "qo' qa'" = "world's spirit". Try "qo' qa' paq"? In the original English, the context and the italics seem to show that "Spiritus Mundi" is a book title and not directly a spirit. Or "qo' qa'pu' paq"?: the Latin word "spiritus" could also be a plural, since it is 4th declension.
The italics are used to indicate that a foreign language phrase is being used, not a book title. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
In {najHa'moHpu'}, can {naj} = "dream" be a verb, or is it only a noun? ----Original message----
From : niqolay0@gmail.com Date : 08/06/2017 - 05:02 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : [tlhIngan Hol] The Second Coming I have attempted a translation of another classical poem. This time, it's "The Second Coming", by William Butler Yeats. The version of the poem I used can be found here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290 cha'DIch ghoS [1] ....
Am 08.06.2017 um 13:01 schrieb Anthony Appleyard:
In {najHa'moHpu'}, can {naj} = "dream" be a verb, or is it only a noun?
the other way: {naj} is only a verb. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
Anthony Appleyard:
In {najHa'moHpu'}, can {naj} = "dream" be a verb, or is it only a noun?
Lieven L. Litaer:
the other way: {naj} is only a verb.
bInajtaHvIS qeylIS Daghomjaj May you encounter Kahless in your dreams! PK yInajchu' Dream well! KGT There is a derived nomen agentis: (KGT 77f.): Among the songs sung exclusively to or by children is the {najmoHwI'} (literally, "one that causes one to dream"), or lullaby -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
nIqolay Q:
'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq yItlI'. [3]
[3] I would appreciate any suggestions on how to better translate "slouch". {yIt} just doesn't seem to cut it.
How about *{yItHa'} - using {-Ha'} in the sense of "do wrongly" - which I've seen used for "stumble". To shift the idea to the subject we have {rIgh} "be lame": {yItHa' rIghwI'}. There's also {wanHa'} "be crooked/bent" (coined for Agnieszka back in 2012). -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
On 6/8/2017 12:02 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
I have attempted a translation of another classical poem. This time, it's "The Second Coming", by William Butler Yeats. The version of the poem I used can be found here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290
cha'DIch ghoS [1] [1] I'm basing this on the controversial canon from the SkyBox card where {wa'DIch} was used as an adverbial for "the first time". I wanted to keep the idea of "second" in the translation, because of the religious connotations of the "second coming", so I didn't use {ghoSqa'}. I didn't use something like {ghoSpu'ghach cha'DIch} since I wanted to avoid {-ghach} as much as possible (though I still ended up using it elsewhere). {cha'logh ghoS} suggests both comings, not just the second one. So I'm rolling the dice on the adverbial {-DIch}.
I don't remember the SkyBox card that uses an ordinal as an adverbial. Which one is it? /paq'batlh/ uses ordinals as adverbials, but the meaning is a step in a sequence: *wa'DIch Hegh moratlh */First, Morath fell /... *ghIq Hegh qanjIt */Then, Kanjit fell/ *cha'DIch ghoS* would therefore mean something like, /secondly, he goes,/ as if this is the second thing he did. The best translation may be *pawpu'ghach cha'DIch*/second arrival./ There's no reason to avoid a perfectly good suffix like *-ghach* if you're using it correctly. The advice to avoid it applies only when there is a tendency to overuse it. If you absolutely have to use *cha'DIch* to mean a second something, then you also have to apply it to a noun normally. *-ghach* gives you that. I chose *paw* instead of *ghoS* because /coming (n) /means /approach, arrival, advent,/ which is exactly what *paw* means. *ghoS* means a bunch of other things you don't want.
Sachbogh ghoDaq tlhe'taHqu' 'oH. wamwI' QoylaHbe' wammeH bo'Degh. Sab Dochmey. ngaDlaHbe'taH botlh. qo'Daq chutmey Hutlhbogh nugh'e' 'uchHa'lu'. bIQ'a''e' HurghmoHbogh 'Iw 'uchHa'lu' 'ej Dat chuntaHghach tay SoD bIQ'a'. pagh Har nIvqu'wI'pu' 'ach pe'vIl nongqu' QIvqu'wI'pu'.
tugh vay' 'anglu'bej. tugh cha'DIch ghoSbej.
You can't escape that this means /Soon, as a second step, he surely goes./ If *cha'DIch* absolutely must be there, you need *tugh qaS pawpu'ghach cha'DIch.*
cha'DIch ghoS! mu'meyvetlh vIjatlhpu'DI' SIbI' mInDu'wIj Suj mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh qo' qa'.
If Yeats felt it necessary to use a Latin term in an English poem, there's no reason for you to use anything but Latin either. I don't think you want *-'a'* for /vast;/ that's more like *tInqu'. *Replace *mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh qo' qa'* with *mIllogh tInqu' Delbogh */Spiritus Mundi./ Stick an *-'e'* on *tInqu'* if you're not concerned with any kind of meter and you think you need to disambiguate the head noun.
Deb voghDaq QIt 'uSDu'Daj vIHmoH vIghro''a' porgh loD nach je ghajbogh tu'qom.
I recommend putting a comma between *porgh* and *loD* so the reader knows where one noun phrase ends and the other begins. It took me a while to figure it out.
pagh lu'agh mInDu'Daj 'ej vupbe' bIH. jul lurur. Dechbogh retlhDajDaq jIr Deb bo'Deghmey QeH QIbmey. pumqa' QIb 'ach cha'SaD DIS poH QongwI' let najHa'moHpu' Qombogh ghu QongDaq DaH 'e' vISov. [2]
[2] {Qom} isn't the right word here, but earthquakes at least fit the apocalyptic tone, and there's not much else to use. Maybe one of the airplane movement verbs?
I think the word *Dav* /sway/ can be used outside of aircraft. At any rate, its explanation by Maltz doesn't say it's specific to aircraft. It's not quite /rock,/ but it's as close as we've got. I don't understand what /stony sleep/ means in the original, but I'm not sure that *QongwI' let*/hard sleeper/ fits it. (When *let* says it means /hard (like a stone),/ that doesn't mean *let* means /stone-like./ It's disambiguating from /hard (difficult)./)
'ej tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naQbe' 'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq yItlI'. [3]
[3] I would appreciate any suggestions on how to better translate "slouch". {yIt} just doesn't seem to cut it.
A literal translation might be *yItlI' 'ej yepHa'lI'**.* Or maybe add *SIbI'Ha' */eventually/ to the start of the sentence to suggest that the walking isn't especially motivated or brisk. Maybe also add *QIt* /slowly/ along with it. Something like *'ej SIbI'Ha' boghmeH betle'HemDaq QIt yItlI'.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *majQa'!* This is the sort of translation I like: you've done a close reading of the original and remained sensitive to what the poet was trying to convey, rather than just convert the words grammatically. You tried to replicate the feel of the poem in flow and concept without being ungrammatical with a call-out to poetic license as an excuse for things you couldn't make work. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:44 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/8/2017 12:02 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
I have attempted a translation of another classical poem. This time, it's "The Second Coming", by William Butler Yeats. The version of the poem I used can be found here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290
cha'DIch ghoS [1] [1] I'm basing this on the controversial canon from the SkyBox card where {wa'DIch} was used as an adverbial for "the first time". I wanted to keep the idea of "second" in the translation, because of the religious connotations of the "second coming", so I didn't use {ghoSqa'}. I didn't use something like {ghoSpu'ghach cha'DIch} since I wanted to avoid {-ghach} as much as possible (though I still ended up using it elsewhere). {cha'logh ghoS} suggests both comings, not just the second one. So I'm rolling the dice on the adverbial {-DIch}.
I don't remember the SkyBox card that uses an ordinal as an adverbial. Which one is it?
S15: http://klingonska.org/canon/sbx-s13.html The first sentence is: {wa’DIch tlhIngan Dujmey luleghlu’pu’bogh rur qItI’nga’ Duj.} translated as "*Similar in configuration to the first Klingon vessels encountered, the K’Tinga-Class..."* I remember seeing this being used as tentative evidence for use of {wa'DIch} as an adverbial... though now that I look at it, it might just be a misplaced word. You do raise some good points here, and I think I'll edit my translation to use {pawpu'ghach cha'DIch} or the like (and then reply to some of the other points) when I get home.
Looking through my notes I find: (ghunchu'wI', 7/26/2010): A cadre of grammarians had the opportunity to preview a section of a Klingon opera [at qep'a' 17] . . . We also saw an apparently adverbial {wa'DIch}, confirming that the {wa'DIch jagh'e' wIHeghmoHmo'} line in {taHjaj wo'} is appropriate usage. Those lines from the paq’batlh are: wa'DIch Hegh moratlh wej SuvwI' SuvtaHvIS mongDaj DuQlu' 'ej Hegh ghIq Hegh qanjIt qeylIS retlhDaq Suv wa' jagh HoHta' HeghtaHvIS First, Morath fell … [remainder of translation wanting (PB p148f.)] and the sequence: wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' tagha' tIq Hoch botlh Hochlogh Dat joqtaHjaj [translation wanting (PB)] --Voragh On Behalf Of nIqolay Q On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:44 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 6/8/2017 12:02 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
I have attempted a translation of another classical poem. This time, it's "The Second Coming", by William Butler Yeats. The version of the poem I used can be found here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290
cha'DIch ghoS [1] [1] I'm basing this on the controversial canon from the SkyBox card where {wa'DIch} was used as an adverbial for "the first time". I wanted to keep the idea of "second" in the translation, because of the religious connotations of the "second coming", so I didn't use {ghoSqa'}. I didn't use something like {ghoSpu'ghach cha'DIch} since I wanted to avoid {-ghach} as much as possible (though I still ended up using it elsewhere). {cha'logh ghoS} suggests both comings, not just the second one. So I'm rolling the dice on the adverbial {-DIch}.
I don't remember the SkyBox card that uses an ordinal as an adverbial. Which one is it?
S15: http://klingonska.org/canon/sbx-s13.html The first sentence is: {wa’DIch tlhIngan Dujmey luleghlu’pu’bogh rur qItI’nga’ Duj.} translated as "Similar in configuration to the first Klingon vessels encountered, the K’Tinga-Class..." I remember seeing this being used as tentative evidence for use of {wa'DIch} as an adverbial... though now that I look at it, it might just be a misplaced word. You do raise some good points here, and I think I'll edit my translation to use {pawpu'ghach cha'DIch} or the like (and then reply to some of the other points) when I get home.
On 6/8/2017 10:44 AM, SuStel wrote:
tugh cha'DIch ghoSbej.
You can't escape that this means /Soon, as a second step, he surely goes./ If *cha'DIch* absolutely must be there, you need *tugh qaS pawpu'ghach cha'DIch.*
Ooh! How about *lIb pawpu'ghach cha'DIch*/the Second Coming is imminent./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Nice, I’d forgotten about {lIb} : Qob lIb bam SoH chuDlI' je You and your people are in danger. (STID) Meanings confirmed at qepHom 2013: lIb be impending, be imminent, loom (v) bam face, have the prospect of having to deal with (v) chuD people, kin, member of the same group/tribe/clan (n) << And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, << Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? < 'ej tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naQbe' < 'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq yItlI'. [3] I’m not sure I understand {naQbe’} “un-full/un-whole” here. Perhaps {Doch} “be rude”, {Qut} “be vulgar”, {qej} “be grouchy/mean” or -- best of all --- {naH} "be hostile/malicious": ghach jIvvo' naH. DaH pIghvamDaq So''eghtaH There is a criminal hiding in these ruins. (STID) More of those new-ish words from STID confirmed at qepHom 2013: ghach lurk, lie in wait, lie low (v) jIvvo' criminal, villain, malefactor, terrorist (n) naH be hostile, malicious, unfriendly, antagonistic (v) Ooh! How about calling it (whatever it is) a personified -- or is it figurative? - {maQmIgh} “dark omen, sign of evil coming”. If not in these lines, then surely somewhere else in this evocative poem? --Voragh On Behalf Of SuStel On 6/8/2017 10:44 AM, SuStel wrote: tugh cha'DIch ghoSbej. You can't escape that this means Soon, as a second step, he surely goes. If cha'DIch absolutely must be there, you need tugh qaS pawpu'ghach cha'DIch. Ooh! How about lIb pawpu'ghach cha'DIch the Second Coming is imminent. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
<< And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
<< Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
< 'ej tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naQbe'
< 'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq yItlI'. [3]
I’m not sure I understand {naQbe’} “un-full/un-whole” here. Perhaps {Doch} “be rude”, {Qut} “be vulgar”, {qej} “be grouchy/mean” or -- best of all --- {naH} "be hostile/malicious":
It took me a while to decide on the best way to translate "rough", since {ghegh} appears to be used only for texture. I went with "rough" in the sense of "basic, incomplete" (as in a "rough draft"), since the beast is not yet born.
nIqolay Q : < And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, < Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? < 'ej tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naQbe' < 'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq yItlI'. Voragh:
I’m not sure I understand {naQbe’} “un-full/un-whole” here. Perhaps {Doch} “be rude”, {Qut} “be vulgar”, {qej} “be grouchy/mean” or -- best of all --- {naH} "be hostile/malicious":
nIqolay Q :
It took me a while to decide on the best way to translate "rough", since {ghegh} appears to be used only for texture. I went with "rough" in the sense of "basic, incomplete" (as in a "rough draft"), since the beast is not yet born.
I see. Here's some more options to play with: Duy' be defective (v) Hutlh lack, be without (v) pup be perfect, be exact (v) pupHa' [be perfect, be inexact] (v) chen build up, take form, take shape (v) cher establish, set up (v) Hach be developed (e.g. a civilization) (v) lutlh be primitive (v) Of these, {Duy'}, {pupHa'} and {chen/chenHa'} looks promising. -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
On Thursday 08 Jun 2017 19:53:30 Steven Boozer wrote:
nIqolay Q : < And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
It took me a while to decide on the best way to translate "rough", since
I see. Here's some more options to play with:
Duy' be defective (v) Hutlh lack, be without (v) pup be perfect, be exact (v) pupHa' [be perfect, be inexact] (v) chen build up, take form, take shape (v) cher establish, set up (v) Hach be developed (e.g. a civilization) (v) lutlh be primitive (v)
Of these, {Duy'}, {pupHa'} and {chen/chenHa'} looks promising.
Another option might be: ral be violent (v) In the "ready and able to resort to force or violence" sense of the word to describe a beast.
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:44 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I don't think you want -'a' for vast; that's more like tInqu'. Replace mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh qo' qa' with mIllogh tInqu' Delbogh Spiritus Mundi. Stick an -'e' on tInqu' if you're not concerned with any kind of meter and you think you need to disambiguate the head noun.
I had the line with {mIllogh tIn'e'} for a while. But then I thought that the image is not merely vast, but also very significant and important -- no mere ordinary image, but almost some kind of vision. So it might make sense to use {-'a'} to convey that. I see your point about using the Latin rather than translating Spiritus Mundi literally, though.
I don't understand what stony sleep means in the original, but I'm not sure that QongwI' let hard sleeper fits it. (When let says it means hard (like a stone), that doesn't mean let means stone-like. It's disambiguating from hard (difficult).)
My interpretation of "stony sleep" was that the sleep was hard to disturb, like a rock. We do know that {let} can be used metaphorically in a sense like "unyielding" or "tough" - {let mInDu'Daj; Separmey rur}. In this sense, {QongwI' let} was based on the same metaphor as "stony sleep". I had a phrase with {nagh rurbogh} in the sentence for a while, but the line was getting pretty ungainly at that point, so I replaced the relative clause with a one-syllable adjective. (Well, one-syllable stative verb.) On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:47 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Ooh! How about lIb pawpu'ghach cha'DIch the Second Coming is imminent.
{lIb} is a really good word. I do like the {tugh -bej} parallel I currently have in the first two lines of that stanza. The original has a parallelism too ("Surely... at hand") and it's always nice to be able to keep the poetic structures of the original when translating. How about {tugh lIbbej pawpu'ghach cha'DIch}? The {tugh} and {lIb} are a little redundant but it does preserve the parallelism and also uses a much more interesting verb than just {qaSbej}. Here's a second draft, with some of the suggested changes (the ones that I haven't argued about, at least): pawpu'ghach cha'DIch Sachbogh ghoDaq tlhe'taH 'oH. wamwI' QoylaHbe' wammeH bo'Degh. Sab Dochmey. ngaDlaHbe'taH botlh. qo'Daq chutmey Hutlhbogh nugh'e' 'uchHa'lu'. bIQ'a''e' HurghmoHbogh 'Iw 'uchHa'lu' 'ej Dat chuntaHghach tay SoD bIQ'a'. pagh Har nIvqu'wI'pu' 'ach pe'vIl nongqu' QIvqu'wI'pu'. tugh vay' 'anglu'bej. tugh lIbbej pawpu'ghach cha'DIch. pawpu'ghach cha'DIch! mu'meyvetlh vIjatlhpu'DI' SIbI' mInDu'wIj Suj mIllogh'a''e' Delbogh *Spiritus Mundi*. Deb voghDaq QIt 'uSDu'Daj vIHmoH vIghro''a' porgh, loD nach je ghajbogh tu'qom. pagh 'agh lumInDu'Daj 'ej vupbe' bIH. jul lurur. Dechbogh retlhDajDaq jIr Deb bo'Deghmey QeH QIbmey. pumqa' QIb 'ach cha'SaD DIS poH QongwI' let najHa'moHpu' Davbogh ghu QongDaq DaH 'e' vISov. 'ej tagha' repDaj lop Ha'DIbaH naH 'ej boghmeH betle'HemDaq QIt yItHa'lI'.
majQa'! This is the sort of translation I like: you've done a close reading of the original and remained sensitive to what the poet was trying to convey, rather than just convert the words grammatically. You tried to replicate the feel of the poem in flow and concept without being ungrammatical with a call-out to poetic license as an excuse for things you couldn't make work.
Thank you!
participants (6)
-
Anthony Appleyard -
Jeremy Silver -
Lieven -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel