are these correct/acceptable ? romuluSngan HoH 'Iv DaneH who do you want to kill the romulan ? 'Iv HoH romuluSngan DaneH who do you want the romulan to kill ? romuluSngan HoH 'Iv 'e' Dalegh who did you see that he killed the romulan ? 'Iv HoH romuluSngan 'e' Dalegh who did you see to be killed by the romulan ? nIn 'ar wIghaj DaneH how much fuel do you want us to have ? nIn 'ar wIghaj 'e' Dalegh how much fuel did you see that we have ? tagha'.. Qong qunnoH. DaH 'e' vIchaw'.. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
and I thought of two more: vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar DaneH how many romulans do you want to kill your father ? vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar 'e' Dalegh how many romulans did you see that killed your father ? qunnoH jan puqloD On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:38 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
are these correct/acceptable ?
romuluSngan HoH 'Iv DaneH who do you want to kill the romulan ?
'Iv HoH romuluSngan DaneH who do you want the romulan to kill ?
romuluSngan HoH 'Iv 'e' Dalegh who did you see that he killed the romulan ?
'Iv HoH romuluSngan 'e' Dalegh who did you see to be killed by the romulan ?
nIn 'ar wIghaj DaneH how much fuel do you want us to have ?
nIn 'ar wIghaj 'e' Dalegh how much fuel did you see that we have ?
tagha'.. Qong qunnoH. DaH 'e' vIchaw'..
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
are these QAO's correct ? qunnoH jan puqloD On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:06 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
and I thought of two more:
vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar DaneH how many romulans do you want to kill your father ?
vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar 'e' Dalegh how many romulans did you see that killed your father ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:38 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
are these correct/acceptable ?
romuluSngan HoH 'Iv DaneH who do you want to kill the romulan ?
'Iv HoH romuluSngan DaneH who do you want the romulan to kill ?
romuluSngan HoH 'Iv 'e' Dalegh who did you see that he killed the romulan ?
'Iv HoH romuluSngan 'e' Dalegh who did you see to be killed by the romulan ?
nIn 'ar wIghaj DaneH how much fuel do you want us to have ?
nIn 'ar wIghaj 'e' Dalegh how much fuel did you see that we have ?
tagha'.. Qong qunnoH. DaH 'e' vIchaw'..
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
and since this came up.. at these two QAO's: vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar DaneH how many romulans do you want to kill your father ? vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar 'e' Dalegh how many romulans did you see that killed your father ? should the {HoH} take the {lu-} prefix ? but what if there just one romulan ? qunnoH jan puqloD On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:08 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
are these QAO's correct ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:06 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
and I thought of two more:
vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar DaneH how many romulans do you want to kill your father ?
vavlI' HoH romuluSngan 'ar 'e' Dalegh how many romulans did you see that killed your father ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:38 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
are these correct/acceptable ?
romuluSngan HoH 'Iv DaneH who do you want to kill the romulan ?
'Iv HoH romuluSngan DaneH who do you want the romulan to kill ?
romuluSngan HoH 'Iv 'e' Dalegh who did you see that he killed the romulan ?
'Iv HoH romuluSngan 'e' Dalegh who did you see to be killed by the romulan ?
nIn 'ar wIghaj DaneH how much fuel do you want us to have ?
nIn 'ar wIghaj 'e' Dalegh how much fuel did you see that we have ?
tagha'.. Qong qunnoH. DaH 'e' vIchaw'..
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
What is the Klingon for "each" as distinct from "all" or "every" and such? I get the impression that English "each" is a singular which is to be taken as meaning one, then another, then another, and so on, of a stated group, like a computer language statement that means "for j = 1, 2, 3, etc, to n repeat/iterate the following statements". "Tthe men had a phaser" could mean that the whole group had one phaser between them. "The men had phasers" could mean that some of thee group had phasers. "Each man in the group had a phaser" would mean and be shorthand for:"John had a phaser; Peter had a phaser; Baz had a phaser; Steve had a phaser; ....etc...." iterated across the whole group.
On 12/1/2016 11:36 AM, Anthony Appleyard wrote:
What is the Klingon for "each" as distinct from "all" or "every" and such? I get the impression that English "each" is a singular which is to be taken as meaning one, then another, then another, and so on, of a stated group, like a computer language statement that means "for j = 1, 2, 3, etc, to n repeat/iterate the following statements".
"Tthe men had a phaser" could mean that the whole group had one phaser between them.
"The men had phasers" could mean that some of thee group had phasers.
"Each man in the group had a phaser" would mean and be shorthand for:"John had a phaser; Peter had a phaser; Baz had a phaser; Steve had a phaser; ....etc...." iterated across the whole group.
You can add the word *Hoch* before a noun to mean either "each /noun/" or "all ," depending on whether the noun has a plural suffix on it. *Hoch loD */each man (taken individually)/ *Hoch loDpu' */all men (taken as a group)/ So we can say: *wa' pu'HIch ghaj Hoch loD */each man has one phaser/ *wa' pu'HIch ghaj Hoch loDpu' */(the group of) all the men have one phaser/ But the Klingon allows for the same ambiguity that English does: *pu'HIch ghaj Hoch loD */each man has a phaser/phasers/ *pu'HIch ghaj Hoch loDpu' */(the group of) all the men have a phaser/phasers/ (Does each have his own phaser? Do only some of the men have phasers? Do some men have more phasers than others? The sentence doesn't say.) We also have the word *ngIq*/singular one, individual one,/ which is used to refer to a group in which each member is acted on sequentially. *ngIq nuv luHoH */they kill the warriors one by one/ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
There is the not fully understood word {ngIq}, which appears to function as "each" or "one by one" in most contexts. Canonical examples: == paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 12, Stanza 8 == yerchajvo' Haw' qamchIynganpu' ngIq nuv luHoH molor vaghvatlh molor vaghvatlh molor vaghvatlh The people of Qam-Chee, They fled their territory, And were killed one by one. By the five hundred of Molor, By the five hundred of Molor, By the five hundred of Molor, == paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 9 == nIteb chegh molor ngIq ghoqwI’ joqwI’’e’ cha’bogh qeylIS luDel ‘e’ ra’ molor One by one Molor's scouts return, He asks them which banner Kahless marches under == paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 12 == ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ ‘ej tIqDu’ lel ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ ‘ej quvqa’ ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ ‘ej rIn may’ In one single move, he removed the hearts, In one single move, he restored his honor, In one single move, the battle was done. == paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 15 == ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ SaD law’ San chenmoH qeylIS wej boghbogh nuvpu’ San chenmoH In one single move, Kahless decided the fate Of thousands, and those to come. (As you can see, these past two examples don´t quite fit in with the rest, seeming to me "single one", rather than "each".) == Klingon Monopoly cards == {ngIq raQ - 150 QaS} "outposts cost 150 each" {ngIq raQvaD cha'maH vagh QaS yInob.} "For each outpost pay 25 forces." {ngIq gholvo' wa'maH QaS yItlhap.} "Collect 10 forces from every player." ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 17:36 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] Each What is the Klingon for "each" as distinct from "all" or "every" and such? I get the impression that English "each" is a singular which is to be taken as meaning one, then another, then another, and so on, of a stated group, like a computer language statement that means "for j = 1, 2, 3, etc, to n repeat/iterate the following statements". "Tthe men had a phaser" could mean that the whole group had one phaser between them. "The men had phasers" could mean that some of thee group had phasers. "Each man in the group had a phaser" would mean and be shorthand for:"John had a phaser; Peter had a phaser; Baz had a phaser; Steve had a phaser; ....etc...." iterated across the whole group. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
SuStel:
*ngIq nuv luHoH* *they kill the warriors one by one*
the question here would be, why not translate this as "they killed a single warrior". does the {ngIq} possess only the meaning of "one by one", or is it possible to have the meaning of "a single one" too ? and if yes, at what circumstances would it be able to possess this additional meaning ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 1 Dec 2016 7:00 pm, "Felix Malmenbeck" <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
There is the not fully understood word {ngIq}, which appears to function as "each" or "one by one" in most contexts.
Canonical examples:
== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 12, Stanza 8 ==
yerchajvo' Haw' qamchIynganpu' ngIq nuv luHoH
molor vaghvatlh molor vaghvatlh molor vaghvatlh
The people of Qam-Chee, They fled their territory, And were killed one by one.
By the five hundred of Molor, By the five hundred of Molor, By the five hundred of Molor,
== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 9 ==
nIteb chegh molor ngIq ghoqwI’ joqwI’’e’ cha’bogh qeylIS luDel ‘e’ ra’ molor
One by one Molor's scouts return, He asks them which banner Kahless marches under
== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 12 ==
ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ ‘ej tIqDu’ lel ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ ‘ej quvqa’ ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ ‘ej rIn may’
In one single move, he removed the hearts, In one single move, he restored his honor, In one single move, the battle was done.
== paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 15 ==
ngIq tonSaw’ lo’ SaD law’ San chenmoH qeylIS wej boghbogh nuvpu’ San chenmoH
In one single move, Kahless decided the fate Of thousands, and those to come.
(As you can see, these past two examples don´t quite fit in with the rest, seeming to me "single one", rather than "each".)
== Klingon Monopoly cards ==
{ngIq raQ - 150 QaS} "outposts cost 150 each"
{ngIq raQvaD cha'maH vagh QaS yInob.} "For each outpost pay 25 forces."
{ngIq gholvo' wa'maH QaS yItlhap.} "Collect 10 forces from every player."
________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 17:36 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] Each
What is the Klingon for "each" as distinct from "all" or "every" and such? I get the impression that English "each" is a singular which is to be taken as meaning one, then another, then another, and so on, of a stated group, like a computer language statement that means "for j = 1, 2, 3, etc, to n repeat/iterate the following statements".
"Tthe men had a phaser" could mean that the whole group had one phaser between them.
"The men had phasers" could mean that some of thee group had phasers.
"Each man in the group had a phaser" would mean and be shorthand for:"John had a phaser; Peter had a phaser; Baz had a phaser; Steve had a phaser; ....etc...." iterated across the whole group. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/1/2016 12:08 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
*ngIq nuv luHoH* /they kill the warriors one by one/
the question here would be, why not translate this as "they killed a single warrior".
does the {ngIq} possess only the meaning of "one by one", or is it possible to have the meaning of "a single one" too ? and if yes, at what circumstances would it be able to possess this additional meaning ?
Because that's how Okrand translates it. Or at least, that's the English from which Okrand translated into Klingon (the original was also in past tense). The use of *ngIq* is not clearly understood. I only brought it up because it appears to be related to the concept of /each/ that Anthony asked about. Also from /paq'batlh:/ *nIteb chegh molor ngIq ghoqwI' */One by one Molor's scouts return/ *ngIq tonSaw' lo' 'ej ... */In one single move.../ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I remember some time ago we had discussed this at another thread, and again no significant conclusions were made. the only thing I'm able to understand from these canon examples, is perhaps that context distinguishes between the meaning of "a single one" and "each one". If I write: {jIyIttaHvIS, ngIq vIghro' vIlegh}, then obviously this must mean "while I was walking I saw a single cat". I don't think one could translate this as "while I was walking I saw one by one cat". what the hell is this supposed to mean ? it would make no sense. however if I wrote {qaStaHvIS may', ngIq Duj wIQaw'} then this could either mean "while the battle was happening a single ship we destroyed", or "while the battle was happening we destroyed the ships one by one". I guess context would describe which of the two would be correct, and if the author didn't provide this context, then obviously he would be a moron. also, without a definite answer from maltz, if I was to use the {ngIq} either I would write {wa' ngIq} to say "one single" or {ngIq Hoch Dujmey} to say "one by one all ships". qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 1 Dec 2016 7:18 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 12/1/2016 12:08 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
*ngIq nuv luHoH* *they kill the warriors one by one*
the question here would be, why not translate this as "they killed a single warrior".
does the {ngIq} possess only the meaning of "one by one", or is it possible to have the meaning of "a single one" too ? and if yes, at what circumstances would it be able to possess this additional meaning ?
Because that's how Okrand translates it. Or at least, that's the English from which Okrand translated into Klingon (the original was also in past tense).
The use of *ngIq* is not clearly understood. I only brought it up because it appears to be related to the concept of *each* that Anthony asked about.
Also from *paq'batlh:*
*nIteb chegh molor ngIq ghoqwI' **One by one Molor's scouts return*
*ngIq tonSaw' lo' 'ej ... **In one single move...*
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:04 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I remember some time ago we had discussed this at another thread, and again no significant conclusions were made.
the only thing I'm able to understand from these canon examples, is perhaps that context distinguishes between the meaning of "a single one" and "each one".
If I write: {jIyIttaHvIS, ngIq vIghro' vIlegh}, then obviously this must mean "while I was walking I saw a single cat". I don't think one could translate this as "while I was walking I saw one by one cat". what the hell is this supposed to mean ? it would make no sense.
I can translate this as "While I am walking, I see cats one at a time". So I saw a single cat, and then another single cat, then another... etc. qurgh
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
There is the not fully understood word {ngIq}, which appears to function as "each" or "one by one" in most contexts.
Has anyone ever asked MO about {ngIq} (and similarly unknown words like {vabDot}) at a qep or the like?
On 11/30/2016 3:08 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
are these QAO's correct ?
jIjang rIntaH. yapbe' /HIja' ghobe'/ joq. chaq Dujangqang je latlh nuv. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
yapbe' *HIja' ghobe'* joq.
this is rather strange, since I was careful to write QAO's utilizing simple substitutions, the kinds of which we had discussed that are acceptable. oh well ! seemingly I will never know the answer, and curiosity will be troubling me each day.. thank qeylIS I'm not a cat, because if I was one this curiosity would be the end of me ! and the above in klingon.. 'ej DaH, tlhIngan mu'mey moj mu'mey vorgh.. Huj.. QAOmey vIghItlhmeH mu'tlhegh nap vIghItlhta', pab nap lulo'bogh mu'tlhegh: mu'tlheghmeyvamDaq ghelmeH mu' qa'laH jangmeH mu'. mIw wIlajlaHbogh vIlo'ta'. qay'be'.. jIHvaD janglaw' pagh, 'ej meqvammo', qaStaHvIS Hoch jaj jISIvtaH. vIghro' jIHbe'mo', qeylIS vItlho' ! vIghro' jIH net jalchugh vaj reH jIghel'eghmo' jIHeghbej ! qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 30 Nov 2016 4:14 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 11/30/2016 3:08 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
are these QAO's correct ?
jIjang rIntaH. yapbe' *HIja' ghobe'* joq. chaq Dujangqang je latlh nuv.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (6)
-
Anthony Appleyard -
Felix Malmenbeck -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
qurgh lungqIj -
SuStel