On 12/13/2016 1:14 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

two questions:

jIH:

...

Daqvam chImDaq yInlaH mangghoH Sar nuq

is this correct for "what kind of army lives at this deserted place" ?

No. Unknown whether you can use *nuq* or *'Iv* as part of a noun-noun construction. *Daqvam chIm Dabbogh mangghom Sar'e' yIngu' */identify the army-variety that inhabits this deserted place!/

jIH:

...

loDvaD lay'ta'bogh chaH

is this correct for "the man for whom they swore" ?

No. This is a variation of the old "ship in which I fled" problem <http://higbee.cots.net/Holtej/klingon/faq.htm>. Short version: only the subject or object of a relative clause can be the head noun of the clause. -- SuStel http://www.trimboli.name/

On 12/13/2016 5:06 PM, SuStel wrote:

«QormeH mIw lIjpu'be' ghot lulIjlu'pu'bogh 'e' vItul» jatlh /Gimli,/ «lIjpu'chugh DISujnISbe'.»

Qu'vatlh! /Qor/ jIjatlhpu' /Qoj/ vIHechDI'. -- SuStel http://www.trimboli.name/

On 12/14/2016 8:35 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

SuStel:

...

chay' Mordor HIv bot puSqu'wI'?»

the {puSqu'wI'} means "very few people" ?

Yes. It could mean very few of anything, but the intended implication, which you took, is people.

and something must be happening with {HIv} and {bot}. "how very few people will prevent attack mordor" ?

Hmm. It seems that *HIv* as a noun doesn't appear in the new words list. It should: in /Star Trek V,/ Captain Klaa says *HIv He yIchoHmoH*, which is subtitled /Alter the attack course!/

SuStel:

...

'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh.

I can't translate this; all I get is "the member(s) of the house of the receiver(s) who swore the oath". Or "the oath which was sworn by the member(s) of the house of the receiver(s).

An attempt to avoid this "ship in which I fled" problem, in this case "the heir of him to whom the oath they swore." The best I could come up with was "house member of the receiver of the oath which they swore." I should have put a *-pu'* on *lay'.* If you can think of a more obvious translation, let me know. I claim the excuse of translating while at work.

SuStel:

...

Sauron luquvmoHmo' qaStaHvIS DISmey lunaDHa'lu'bogh

this confuses me too.. "because they honored Sauron while the years which someone discommended them were happening" ?

I didn't want to translate /Dark Years/ literally, as there was plenty of sunlight at the time. The Dark Years <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Years> were the period of the Second Age wherein lesser men worshiped Sauron and he held dominion over most of Middle-earth, before the coming of the Númenóreans in Exile. These were also called the Accursed Years, and I looked in a thesaurus for inspiration on how to translate this. I noticed /condemned/ and /bedeviled,/ and somehow that led me to *naDHa'.* I can't defend this. I probably could have gone with something bland, like *DIS lumuSlu'bogh* or, even worse, *DIS mIgh.* Anyway, by that time I had to go to the bathroom and it was nearly time to go home. I was rushing. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 12/14/2016 9:37 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

SuStel:

...

'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh house member of the receiver of the oath which they swore.

thank you for explaining this ! I just learned something new, something I hadn't realized so far !

we have the {'Ip lulay'bogh} "the oath which they swore". and then we have the {HevwI' tuqnIgh}. So, we put them together, forming a noun-noun construction thus getting "house member of the receiver of the oath which they swore". this is beautiful !

I hadn't realized that we could take a noun, entangle it with {-bogh} and use it in a noun-noun construction.

jIQuch !

however, a new question just appeared in my mind, so let me ask you..

instead of the {'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh}, could we write {'Ip'e' lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh}, or would this be considered a violation of the rule that "in noun-noun constructions only the last noun can take type-5 suffixes" ?

Yes, it would. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 12/14/2016 10:03 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

SuStel:

...

in /Star Trek V,/ Captain Klaa says *HIv He* *> yIchoHmoH*, which is subtitled /Alter the/ /> attack course!/

the question is, captain klaa says {HIv He} or {HIvHe} ?

Yes, that is what he says. :) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

Yes. On 12/14/2016 10:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

which of the two do you mean ? {HIvHe} or {HIv He} ?

qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'

On 14 Dec 2016 5:13 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:

On 12/14/2016 10:03 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

...

SuStel: > in /Star Trek V,/ Captain Klaa says *HIv He* *> yIchoHmoH*, which is subtitled /Alter the/ /> attack course!/

the question is, captain klaa says {HIv He} or {HIvHe} ?

Yes, that is what he says. :)

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name

Andre Müller:

I think SuStel's point is: *On screen, no one can* *> hear your spaces.*

hahaha ! ok, now I understand ! and now, lets talk about something which was discussed earlier in this thread.. SuStel:

Unknown whether you can use *nuq* or *'Iv* as part of a noun-noun construction.

I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly. lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw'ta' Duj nuq} and {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 14 Dec 2016 6:00 pm, "André Müller" <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:

I think SuStel's point is: *On screen, no one can hear your spaces.*

It's safer to use a space, if we're not sure, though.

- André

2016-12-14 16:57 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:

...

Yes.

On 12/14/2016 10:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

which of the two do you mean ? {HIvHe} or {HIv He} ?

qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'

On 14 Dec 2016 5:13 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

...

On 12/14/2016 10:03 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

SuStel:

...

in *Star Trek V,* Captain Klaa says *HIv He* *> yIchoHmoH*, which is subtitled *Alter the* *> attack course!*

the question is, captain klaa says {HIv He} or {HIvHe} ?

Yes, that is what he says. :)

-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name

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SuStel is using the method for translating "which/what is X?" that Okrand introduced on the old msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand BBS. FYI here is the relevant part of his post (unformatted): ************************************************************************ From: MarcOkrand <...> Newsgroups: msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand Date: December 12, 1996 Subject: What do you think? [. . . .] (2) You suggested translating "What is your favorite month?" as: jarlIj qaq nuq? This one's a little easier to deal with. Your sentence literally means "What is your preferable month?" The basic syntax is correct. Question words (in this case, nuq "what?") function the same way pronouns do in questions with "to be" in the English translations. Thus, the question yIH nuq? "What is a tribble?" is exactly parallel the statement yIH 'oH "It is a tribble" (where yIH is "tribble" and 'oH is "it"). The answer to the question yIH nuq? ("What is a tribble?") would presumably be a definition or description of a tribble. This being the case, then, the answer to the question jarlIj qaq nuq? ("What is your preferable month?") would presumably be a definition of "your favorite month." But this is not what you want to find out by asking your question. What you really mean to ask is something like "Of all the months, which one do you prefer?" The first word in your sentence, jarlIj, means "your month" (jar "month," -lIj "your"). But given that what you're really asking is "Which month do you prefer?" it's not really "your month" at all. The "you" should go with the verb, not with "month." Which brings us to the verb. You use qaq, "be preferable," adjectivally (jarlIj qaq is "your preferable month"). I think what you mean is better expressed by using the verb maS "prefer" with "you" as the subject: jar DamaS "you prefer the month." If you want to highlight the notion of "most prefer," you can use the emphatic suffix -qu': jar DamaSqu' "you very much prefer the month." (In this case, since "prefer" involves making a choice, the one chosen is automatically the one that is "most" preferred.) So what about the "what" (or "which") of your original question ("What/which is your favorite month?")? When asking someone a question of this type, you are really asking him or her to make a choice. So just be a Klingon and order them to do so: "Identify the month that you very much prefer!": jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu' DamaSqu'bogh "that you very much prefer" (DamaSqu' "you very much prefer it" plus -bogh "which," the relative-clause marker) modifies jar "month" and the whole phrase jar DamaSqu'bogh "the month that you very much prefer" is the object of the verb ngu' ("identify"), which is preceded by the imperative prefix yI- ("do something to it!"). Given that there's an awful lot about Klingon grammar that's not yet known, you did a good job coming up with the translations you came up with. I hope my explanations and clarifications make sense. ************************************************************************ On Behalf Of SuStel Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:47 AM On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote: I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly. lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw'ta' Duj nuq} and {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ? paw, not paw' (unless the arrival was very rough!). nuq goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't the same sentence with a substitution for nuq, then the question is not formed correctly. If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the Enterprise arrived, then the answer is pawta' 'entepray'. But this isn't in the same form that you asked it, because it doesn't include the word Duj. So the entire method of asking the question is doubtful. There are some answers that would fit, like, say, pawta' DIvI' Duj. But not every answer will fit, so you may not be able to ask questions this way. In any case, we've never seen Okrand use nuq or 'Iv in a noun-noun construction like this, so whether or not this is allowed is unknown. The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to identify: paw'ta'bogh Duj yIngu' identify the ship that has arrived! If you're not asking for a name, you might get more specific, like pawta'bogh Duj Sar yIngu' identify the type of ship that has arrived! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

SuStel:

There *are* some answers that would fit, like, say, *pawta' DIvI' Duj.*

yes, indeed; that's why I used two variants of the question: {pawta' nuq Duj} in case the answer would be {pawta' DIvI' Duj}, and {paw'ta' Duj nuq} in case the answer would be {pawta' Duj qIj}. anyway, I understand now. thanks ! qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 14 Dec 2016 7:13 pm, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:

SuStel is using the method for translating “which/what is X?” that Okrand introduced on the old msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand BBS. FYI here is the relevant part of his post (unformatted):

************************************************************************

From: MarcOkrand <…>

Newsgroups: msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand

Date: December 12, 1996

Subject: What do you think?

[. . . .]

(2) You suggested translating "What is your favorite month?" as:

*jarlIj qaq nuq*?

This one's a little easier to deal with. Your sentence literally means

"What is your preferable month?" The basic syntax is correct. Question

words (in this case, *nuq* "what?") function the same way pronouns do in

questions with "to be" in the English translations. Thus, the question

*yIH nuq*? "What is a tribble?" is exactly parallel the statement *yIH 'oH*

"It is a tribble" (where * yIH *is "tribble" and *'oH *is "it"). The answer to the question *yIH nuq*? ("What is a tribble?") would presumably be a

definition or description of a tribble. This being the case, then, the

answer to the question * jarlIj qaq nuq*? ("What is your preferable month?") would presumably be a definition of "your favorite month." But this is not what you want to find out by asking your question. What you really mean to ask is something like "Of all the months, which one do you prefer?"

The first word in your sentence, *jarlIj*, means "your month" (*jar *"month," *-lIj *"your"). But given that what you're really asking is "Which month do you prefer?" it's not really "your month" at all. The "you" should go with the verb, not with "month."

Which brings us to the verb. You use *qaq*, "be preferable," adjectivally

(*jarlIj qaq *is "your preferable month"). I think what you mean is better

expressed by using the verb *maS *"prefer" with "you" as the subject: *jar*

*DamaS* "you prefer the month." If you want to highlight the notion of

"most prefer," you can use the emphatic suffix -*qu'*: *jar DamaSqu'* "you

very much prefer the month." (In this case, since "prefer" involves

making a choice, the one chosen is automatically the one that is "most"

preferred.)

So what about the "what" (or "which") of your original question

("What/which is your favorite month?")? When asking someone a question of

this type, you are really asking him or her to make a choice. So just be

a Klingon and order them to do so: "Identify the month that you very much prefer!":

* jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu' *

*DamaSqu'bogh *"that you very much prefer" (*DamaSqu' *"you very much prefer

it" plus -*bogh *"which," the relative-clause marker) modifies *jar * "month"

and the whole phrase *jar DamaSqu'bogh *"the month that you very much

prefer" is the object of the verb *ngu'* ("identify"), which is preceded by the imperative prefix *yI*- ("do something to it!").

Given that there's an awful lot about Klingon grammar that's not yet known, you did a good job coming up with the translations you came up with. I hope my explanations and clarifications make sense.

************************************************************************

*On Behalf Of *SuStel *Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:47 AM

On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly.

lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw'ta' Duj nuq} and {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ?

*paw,* not *paw'* (unless the arrival was very rough!).

*nuq* goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't the same sentence with a substitution for *nuq,* then the question is not formed correctly.

If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the *Enterprise* arrived, then the answer is *pawta' 'entepray'.* But this isn't in the same form that you asked it, because it doesn't include the word *Duj.* So the entire method of asking the question is doubtful.

There *are* some answers that would fit, like, say, *pawta' DIvI' Duj.* But not every answer will fit, so you may not be able to ask questions this way.

In any case, we've never seen Okrand use *nuq* or *'Iv* in a noun-noun construction like this, so whether or not this is allowed is unknown.

The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to identify: *paw'ta'bogh Duj yIngu'** identify the ship that has arrived!* If you're not asking for a name, you might get more specific, like *pawta'bogh Duj Sar yIngu'* *identify the type of ship that has arrived!*

--

SuStel

http://trimboli.name

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maj ! so, I'll just stick to the time-honored {yIngu'} solution ! qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 14 Dec 2016 7:21 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 12/14/2016 12:18 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

SuStel:

...

There *are* some answers that would fit, like, say, *pawta' DIvI' Duj.*

yes, indeed; that's why I used two variants of the question: {pawta' nuq Duj} in case the answer would be {pawta' DIvI' Duj}, and {paw'ta' Duj nuq} in case the answer would be {pawta' Duj qIj}.

Except you only ask one question, not two. Hence, you can't ask the question like this at all.

-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name

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