On 12/20/2021 8:06 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:

People like tolkien and okrand are one in a billion. Literally. They have been born with a special gift, a gift which none of us has: the ability to create something new.

Fond as I am of Marc Okrand and the Klingon language, he is no Tolkien. Tolkien didn't just create some conlangs. Tolkien invented some languages, then invented the complete etymologies of those languages and the legendary and mythic stories of the peoples who spoke those languages and the whole world in which they lived, and was constantly changing the languages to make it more suitable, while incorporating those changes into the etymologies. His work is astounding, and few have even come close to the incredible level of detail he did. (Although I haven't read any of it, I suspect M.A.R. Barker's Tekumel is probably one of the closest.) What Okrand made is pleasing and absorbing, but it's not a work of genius. I don't think our reliance on canon has anything to do with some innate ability of Okrand that we can't replicate. Rather, we rely on canon to maintain the fiction that this language is a real one spoken by aliens on another planet with a real culture and history, because otherwise we're just a bunch of cringeworthy geeks coughing and spitting at each other for no good reason. For me, at least, there is an important imaginative element to Klingon that must not be taken away, or the whole thing falls down. The ability of Klingon to survive a transition to a new keeper for people like us will not depend on someone being able to replicate the work of a genius. It will depend, rather, on how believably the fictional reality of Klingon can be maintained in its new context. If Okrand just says, "Maltz has decided to move to Joe's basement, so Joe gets to report new Klingon words now" or some such statement, I would find that ham-handed at best. If authority is granted to a committee to invent new Klingon words, that would be even worse, since I can imagine no good way in which a committee of human beings could be connected with reporting actual Klingon from the fictional universe. I would actually find it more satisfying to learn that our window into the secondary world has closed, leaving our canon of Klingon frozen at the current state, because that would be most believable. But it would be disappointing. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

I respectfully disagree with both of you. I think that Tolkien and Okrand are simply two different geniuses who deserve respect with none of us really having the authority to disrespect one while deferring to the other. Neither Okrand nor Tolkien would have had anyone interested in their languages if not for the fictional worlds in which those languages were spoken. Tolkien certainly went broader in terms of developing multiple languages for multiple cultures in the same fictional universe, basing them on his personal research into earlier languages in the British Isles, and in creating that universe, but none of those languages have the useful vocabulary of Klingon because Tolkien never dove that deeply into any of the languages he created. He was too busy creating novels to create robust, extensive dictionaries. I dealt with one Tolkien language fan who boasted of how superior Elvin was to Klingon by translating a sentence he gave me into Klingon and then asking him to translate something into Elvin for me. His face froze, and he backpedaled to say that he didn’t PERSONALLY know the language well enough, but OTHERS certainly could… and so forth. As I said, both language creators had genius and deserve our respect. As to who should lead the language, the simple truth is that as the creator, Okrand has authority. Nobody else does. I could make up vocabulary and extend and refine the grammar, as could any of several experienced Klingon speakers on this list, but why would the rest of us accept that as part of the language WE will use to communicate? We have a reason to accept Okrandian canon. We don’t have a reason to follow anybody else. I’m sure that we could splinter off into subgroups who make up their own vocabulary and interpret or extend the language as they like. This has been true for decades, though I don’t know how anyone has faced the challenge of finding followers. If Okrand states that Maltz is now communicating with someone other than Okrand and we should all follow that other person, maybe we’ll do that, or maybe we’ll disintegrate as a movement as we find the language less interesting with some other person at the helm. With no new Star Trek TV series and the uncertainty of the arrival of new movies, this might even happen while Okrand is in charge. Or maybe there will be enough nerdy zealots to keep the language going with no new vocabulary or clarified grammar. Or maybe we’ll form a committee of grammarians who will head-butt our way through communal development of the language. Or maybe Paramount will anoint a new authority for the language (that we subsequently accept or ignore). Whatever the case, it will either progress through some new authority, or devolve through decreasing capacity to adapt or decreasing interest. The truth is that for both Klingon and the Tolkien languages, there are a LOT more instances of people arguing with each other over the languages and how they should properly be used than there are people actually using the languages in conversation or writing. Read any interesting Elvin books lately? Yes, we have some Klingon literature, both original and translated, which is one of the coolest things about the language, but production is remarkably slow, and works are collected by more people than they are read by. It is good that those who make the effort to produce Klingon works get the support from the group that arises. That’s one of the strongest indicators that the language is likely to survive. So long as, after we pass, bookshelves exist with Klingon works, some future nerd can begin the amateur anthropological project of learning the language and enjoying the thrill of having developed the capacity to read what nobody they grew up with could read, there is hope, because it’s not just Okrand who will pass. We all will pass. We can set that secret trap for the future, for a revival, even if we don’t fully survive without Okrand or maybe even Paramount’s attention to Klingon characters. This is why we should be writing more stuff in Klingon. That’s what might make the language last longer than we will, for those of us who care about that.

On Dec 21, 2021, at 4:32 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 at 15:28, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote: The ability of Klingon to survive a transition to a new keeper for people like us will not depend on someone being able to replicate the work of a genius. It will depend, rather, on how believably the fictional reality of Klingon can be maintained in its new context. If Okrand just says, "Maltz has decided to move to Joe's basement, so Joe gets to report new Klingon words now" or some such statement, I would find that ham-handed at best. If authority is granted to a committee to invent new Klingon words, that would be even worse, since I can imagine no good way in which a committee of human beings could be connected with reporting actual Klingon from the fictional universe. I would actually find it more satisfying to learn that our window into the secondary world has closed, leaving our canon of Klingon frozen at the current state, because that would be most believable. But it would be disappointing.

I think the likeliest scenario is that Paramount/CBS (or whoever the rights owner is at the time) will hire someone to continue to supply Klingon for the movies and shows. (Indeed, people other than Okrand are already doing this, though they are not producing anything "beyond canon" at the moment.) If they hire the same person over and over (which is not a given), and that person were to be interested in expanding Klingon (which is also not a given), then that person will effectively become the new authority on Klingon. After all, the reason that we treat Okrand's work as being authoritative is partly because it's "official", and not just because he invented it. (If he had invented the Klingon language on his own as a hobby with no connection to Star Trek, I doubt any of us would be speaking it. He'd also worked on other languages like Atlantean, which have basically no community around them. The reason Klingon is popular is because of its connection to Star Trek.)

It may be that some of the "old guard" who have been around since forever won't accept another authority, but if Paramount/CBS continues to produce Klingon-language media (not a given), and some new person was working on it, then anyone who is new to Klingon (and thus don't especially have an attachment to Okrand's work) would just accept that person's work as "canon".

While Maltz-is-living-in-Okrand's-basement is a cute joke, we don't really *need* the fiction of Maltz. If a new Star Trek movie or show came out with new Klingon words, and the person who worked on it told us what they meant, what does it matter whether or not they said that the information came through Maltz? Okrand himself hasn't consistently used the Maltz backstory when revealing new information.

-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

The other possibility is that Paramount will turn to this community. Although there may not be (at least at first)a point man, the collective brain trust of this community, along with the massive canon and corpus that Klingon possesses will ensure that true-to-form Klingon will continue to be created. The Na'vi community has already formed a committee that can create and vet suggestions for new vocabulary. Language creator Paul Frommer has final say over what the committee suggests to him, and everyone on the community honors Dr. Frommer with great reverence. So although Na;vi has a ways to go to catch up with Klingon, at least the Na'vi folks have a way to keep the language going and growing should anything happen to Dr. Frommer. Finally, languages that are in active use grow and change with time; this is not untrue of Klingon (and Na'vi). New leadership isn't something to necessarily fear. These commonly used conlangs will need to change to adapt to new circumstances and environments. Absolute canonical purity is not as important as one thinks, although generally sticking to the canon is still important. The discussions, dissensions and conflicts worked through on this list will guide future expert Klingonists to be able to turn out new material, and train the generation of Klingonists beyond them. Don't doubt for a minute that what we are doing here is important for both the current use of, and the future of the language. Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- From: De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Cc: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] hard truths about the future Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 10:32:16 +0100 I think the likeliest scenario is that Paramount/CBS (or whoever the rights owner is at the time) will hire someone to continue to supply Klingon for the movies and shows. (Indeed, people other than Okrand are already doing this, though they are not producing anything "beyond canon" at the moment.) If they hire the same person over and over (which is not a given), and that person were to be interested in expanding Klingon (which is also not a given), then that person will effectively become the new authority on Klingon. After all, the reason that we treat Okrand's work as being authoritative is partly because it's "official", and not just because he invented it. (If he had invented the Klingon language on his own as a hobby with no connection to Star Trek, I doubt any of us would be speaking it. He'd also worked on other languages like Atlantean, which have basically no community around them. The reason Klingon is popular is because of its connection to Star Trek.) It may be that some of the "old guard" who have been around since forever won't accept another authority, but if Paramount/CBS continues to produce Klingon-language media (not a given), and some new person was working on it, then anyone who is new to Klingon (and thus don't especially have an attachment to Okrand's work) would just accept that person's work as "canon". While Maltz-is-living-in-Okrand's-basement is a cute joke, we don't really *need* the fiction of Maltz. If a new Star Trek movie or show came out with new Klingon words, and the person who worked on it told us what they meant, what does it matter whether or not they said that the information came through Maltz? Okrand himself hasn't consistently used the Maltz backstory when revealing new information.

I agree with you that just knowing how to speak a language doesn't make one an expert. However, there might be more experts than you think. I don't remember seeing you a lot in Discord or in weekly meetings (qa'vIn qep, jawmeH qep). I also know people who are very interested in Klingon, but don't for some reason want to use social media and only participate in local face-to-face meetings. I just yesterday started using this mailing list and it seems that people here do not represent the larger community at all. If a committee was to be created, I also think it should have "non-expert" members who use the language a lot. There are several groups that I think should have possibility to influence the language. For example, in the qep'a' the LGBT vocabulary working group had several members with lower KLCP levels, but they are the people who need that vocabulary most, so it is fair that they can participate. Another group is non-English speakers like you and me. I think having people with different mother tongues would be beneficial for trying to avoid anglicisms and other biases. I would support some kind of democratic process for electing the committee members. What I fear the most is that either an outside party like Paramount/CBS decides the fate of the language, or that a small clique of friends proclaims to be in charge now and the rest of the community is left without representation. Of course this democratic process should take in to account the level of expertness. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio https://klingonia.fi ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Wednesday, December 22nd, 2021 at 13.51, mayqel qunen'oS mihkoun@gmail.com wrote:

e

If there is a concept in the klingon speaking community which is

systematically misunderstood and misapplied, it is the concept of an

"expert". So let's make something clear.

The fact that you've translated subtitles doesn't make you an expert.

The fact that you've translated whole texts doesn't make you an expert.

The fact that you've worked on a klingon learning app doesn't make you

an expert.

All these can serve to dazzle beginners in facebook, but again

dazzling beginners in facebook doesn't make you an expert. At best

you're fluent. But there's an abyss separating fluency from being an

expert. I speak greek fluently, but I'm not an expert on the greek

language.

An expert isn't just someone who's fluent; an expert is someone with a

deeper insight/understanding of how things work. An expert is someone

able to answer the hard questions. And it's really sad to see so many

worshiping people who have never answered a difficult question.

As long as I can remember, the only two people who have demonstrated

the ability to answer questions which no one else couldn't are SuStel

and De'vID, and they are the only ones who I consider to be experts in

the true sense of the word.

Of course, someone can say.. "There are definitely people of similar

skill, but they are inactive".

True; there may be people of SuStel/De'vID skill in the community who

for whatever reason choose to remain silent for years. But now I ask..

If for whatever reason you chose to remain silent for years, although

you are a true expert, then why would you be willing to become active

again as a member of some "klingon language committee"? Did your

life's circumstances just happen to change, on the day okrand chose to

retire, allowing you to grace us with your immense grasp of the

language? Or is it something else that you seek?

And this now is the important question.. "What will be the true

purposes of some of the people who will try to replace okrand"?

But this is the subject of the next post

t

tlhIngan nughDaq wa' mu' yajHa'lu'chu'bogh 'ej lo'Ha'lu'chu'bogh

tu'lu'chugh, {po'wI'} 'oH mu'vam'e'. vaj vay' vIQIjnISchu':

SoHvaD po'wI' nImojmoHbe' mughbogh per DachenmoHpu'.

SoHvaD po'wI' nImojmoHbe' tlhIngan Hol ghItlh Damughpu'bogh.

SoHvaD po'wI' nImojmoHbe' tlhIngan Hol ghojmeH nIqHom mu'tlhegh Daqonpu'bogh.

Doj Hochvam 'e' luHarlaH facebook taghwI', 'a vabDot qaSchugh ghu'vam,

po'wI' Damojpu'be'. chaq Hol Dalo'laHchu', 'a pImchu' {Hol

lo'laHchu'wI'} {po'wI'} je. 'elaDya' Hol vIjatlhchu', 'a 'elaDya' Hol

po'wI' jIHbe'bej.

vabDot Hol lo'laHchu'chugh vay', ghaHvaD po'wI' mojmoHbe' ngoDvam.

po'wI'na' ghaHmeH vay''e', Hol pab yajchu' net poQ, 'ej vay' Qatlh

yajmeH nuv, gheltaHvIS nuvvam, nuvvamvaD janglaHchu' po'wI'vam net

pIH. 'a vay' Qatlh luyajmeH 'op, gheltaHvIS 'opvam, not janglaHpu'

latlhpu', 'ej Do'Ha' latlhpu'vam QejqangtaH 'op.

qaStaHvIS poH Hoch vIqawlaHbogh, Qatlhbogh pab Sojmey DIghlaH cha' nuv

neH: SuStel De'vID je. pab Soj Qatlh DIghlaH pagh latlh. 'ej SuStelvaD

De'vIDvaD je neH po'wI'pu'na' vIDam.

'a DaH chaq jatlhqang vay': < SuStel De'vID je laH lughajbogh latlh

tu'lu' je, 'a jeSbe' nuvpu'vam. >

teH; chaq tlhIngan jatlhwI' nughDaq SuStel De'vID je laH lu'aghlaHbogh

nuv tu'lu', 'ej nuvpu'vam jeSqangbe'moH vay' Sovbe'lu'bogh. 'a DaH

jIghel:

< po'wI'na' SoH, 'ej qaStaHvIS DIS law'qu', bItamtaH 'e' DawIv; maj.

qatlh pay' bIchoHpu'? hmm? qatlh pay' tlhIngan Hol yejDaq

bIjeSqangchoHpu'? pajpu'DI' 'oqranD, ngugh choHchu'pu''a' yInlIj

ghu'mey? pajpu'DI' 'oqranD, ngugh maHvaD Sov'a'lIj DabonqangchoHpu'?

..pagh qaS'a' pImchu'bogh vay'? >

'ej DaH potlhchu'bogh vay' wIghojmeH, maghelnIS: < nuq bIH 'oqranD

lugheSbogh 'op nuv ngoQna''e'? >

'a QIn vebDaq Sojvam vIDIgh.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dana'an

https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/

Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ

tlhIngan-Hol mailing list

tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org

http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

It’s clear that you don’t consider me to be an expert. Same for the original Grammarian or any but one of the Beginners’ Grammarians, the head of the KLI, or all but one of the Friends of Maltz. Your remarkable interest in Okrand’s passing is, itself, both interesting and familiar. People have been salivating over taking over the language since the creation of this email list. I know. I’ve been on this list since it was created. It’s like taking over the language were some kind of crown of fame and glory. As people who are neither Dr. Marc Okrand nor Paramount, you or I can say whatever we like, but for now, it’s a non-existent problem, and Okrand or Paramount could sweep aside our suggestions on whim by presenting some other succession. It might be better to take ourselves a little less seriously and just enjoy the language as it is and deal with the post-Okrandian Klingon language when we better understand the circumstances that brought us to that need for succession. The language survived the end of the TV series and so far as I know the movie series. The fictional race may never be presented in media again, yet, here we are, as you say, coughing and spitting on each other. Meanwhile, an individual who inarguably exhibits the most impressive expertise on Earth at use of the Klingon language will not own that language unless the population that wishes to continue to use it likes and trusts that person enough to follow that person’s advice, assuming that Okrand or Paramount hasn’t already declared some other person to be The New Okrand. Likely, a new leader would be someone less interested in an arrogant claim at being better than everybody else than she or he is at helping others learn the language. Dr. Lawrence Schoen is certainly not an expert at the language as you would define it, but he’s certainly done more to create the population of its current speakers than anyone other than Dr. Marc Okrand. He’s certainly earned our respect for promoting the language, creating the body of Klingon literature and documented resources, creating a forum where grammarians interact with those interested in learning the language, and where we all could practice and build our skills. Likely, you would not speak Klingon if not for Dr. Lawrence Schoen. So, in terms of keeping the language going, I’m not that sure that your skills and SuStel’s skills necessarily ensure the survival of the language more than the skills that have quite creatively invented a peer reviewed scholarly journal, The Grammarian’s Desk publication series, this Email list, The Klingon Hamlet, the KLI with members, at one point, on every continent on the planet, etc. It takes a village to raise a child. It probably takes cooperation of people with different skills to keep a language going after it is created. Okrand has repeatedly voiced fascination and wonder over how his little project grew to the accidental significance that it has achieved. The reason that happened is that even his expertise has been less significant than the cooperation of people with varied talents and interests in the spreading of the language. You can’t decide to be President. You have to be elected. The election isn’t happening yet. Campaigning now is a bit odd. One of the oddest features of The Klingon Language is its attraction to those who wish to take it over. For its entire history, this has been one of its features. It’s the most puzzling feature, from my perspective.

On Dec 23, 2021, at 6:56 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

 e

When that time comes, some will say: "We need to take over; the language must not remain stagnant. It needs to grow."

And I ask: What will be that which you will contribute?

Vocabulary? But already any intermediate level speaker can say anything he wants.

Grammar? Do you think you are capable to expand known grammar, or answer questions which even okrand himself chose never to clarify?

No. Your goals will be different:

1. You will want your names to remain in the history of the language as the people who took over. 2. You will want to have the satisfaction of people asking you to grant them new vocabulary. 3. You will want to have even more opportunities to be employed as "experts", thus gaining an advantage over anyone else who wants the job, but isn't on the "committee".

.. Because why would a company hire anyone else, when it could hire those who create canon?

And because someone may wonder.. I've never used klingon financially, and I never will. To me klingon was never a means to earn money, and it never will be.

Now to avoid misunderstandings.. 1,2 and 3 aren't something bad. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting his name to be remembered, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the leader in a group/community. And there certainly isn't something wrong in trying to increase your business opportunities. There's nothing wrong in capitalizing on something, and by saying "capitalize on" I mean "using something in order to help your carrier".

But I don't see why I should be someone accepting the authority of such a "committee". Am I obligated to act in order that some of the people on that committee achieve these goals? Because how would they achieve these goals if they never found anyone to accept their authority?

And there's another matter here which needs to be discussed: the very participation in such a "committee" of people using klingon professionaly, raises the question of objectivity in their choices.

But that will be explained in the next post.

t

< raptaH Hol 'e' wIchaw'be'nIS; latlh pab latlh mu'tay' je tu'nISlu'. vaj 'oqranD wIgheSnIS > jajvetlh jatlh 'op.

'a DaH jIghel: < chay' Sughaq? >

mu'tay' chu' bochenmoH'a'? wejHa' Hoch neHbogh jatlhlaH Hoch laH ghIl Hol lo'wI'.

pab chu' bochenmoH'a'? wejHa' pab tu'lu'bogh boQIjchu''a'? not vay' QIjchu'pu'bogh 'oqranD boQIjqangchu''a'? laHvam boghaj 'e' boHar'a'?

pImchu' ngoQraj:

1. 'oqranD lugheSpu'bogh nuv tlhIH net qaw boneH. 2. latlh mu'tay' luHevmeH 'op, tlhIH wuv 'opvam boneH. 3. tlhIHvaD nargh latlh malja' 'ebmey boneH. 'a yejvamDaq jeSbe'bogh nuvpu'vaD maybe' ghu'vam.

yejvam nuv wIvlaHchugh wa' malja', qatlh yejvam jeSbe'wI' qelnIS?

'ej chaq SIvchoHmo' vay'.. not jIHvaD malja' 'oHpu' tlhIngan Hol'e', 'ej not malja' moj.

DaH vIyajHa'be'lu'meH, vay' vIQIjnIS: qabbe'bej 1,2,3 je. Daqawlu' DaneHchugh, ghomDaq DevwI' Damoj DaneHchugh, qabbe'. 'ej SoHvaD latlh malja' 'ebmey DanarghmoH DaneHchugh, qabbe'bej.

'a qatlh Sarvam yej woQ vIlajnIS? ngoQmeyvam chavmeH 'op, jIvangnIS'a'? 'ej chaq DaH yajbe'mo' vay', jIghel: < woQchaj lajqangbogh pagh'e' tu'lu'chugh, chay' ngoQmeychaj chav Sarvam yej nuvpu'? >

'ej latlh qelnISlu'bogh tu'lu' je. Sarvam yejDaq jeSchugh vay', 'a ghaHvaD malja' 'oH je tlhIngan Hol'e', chay' wIvmeyDaj voqlaH latlhpu'? wuqtaHvIS Sarvam nuv/nuvpu', nuv/nuvpu'vam (lu)SIghbe'lu''a'?

'a QIn veb Sojvam vIDIgh.

-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

In the end, if Klingon is to continue to propper, it is going to be passed on. I suspect everyone here hopes this won't be for some time, but it will happen. Although some will disagree, I feel that the best way to handle the future of the language is by a committee. This committee is best made up of 'enthusiasts' as opposed to 'experts', even though many enthusiasts are functionally experts. They should be chosen by their peers, e.g. everyone on this list, puls other noted Klingonists. The committee would do the following: 1. Create as necessary; vet, modify and approve requests for new vocabulary. 2.Interpret the existing rules for phonology, phonotactics, syntax and grammar. Only under exceptional circumstances would new rules be created. 3. While working to keep the language's core principles intact, adapt to the changes that occur in the evolution of any living language. It may be beneficial for the committee to accept vocabulary requests anonymously, except maybe from a movie/show/theatrical producer who needs considerable new vocabulary for their production. It can be debated either way if the committee wants to work mainly in anonymity, or in the open. In the end, when trying to preserve the intellectual ideas that went into Klingon, and at the same time, adapting to growth and change, a committee is the best way. That way, no one person's ideas will dominate, and questions can be looked at from a variety of angles, just as they are now on this list. Maybe the committee would simply be everyone on this list. (ducks!) Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- From: mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] hard truths about the future Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 17:21:34 +0200 e charghwI':

It’s clear that you don’t consider me to be an expert. Same for the original Grammarian or any but one of the Beginners’ Grammarians, the head of the KLI, or all but one of the Friends of Maltz.

I never understood the need so many feel to be called an expert. Some people should exercise some humility for a change. charghwI':

Your remarkable interest in Okrand’s passing

Ok, stop right there. I've never talked about "okrand's passing". I'm talking about the day he chooses to retire. There's a difference. charghwI':

As people who are neither Dr. Marc Okrand nor Paramount, you or I can say whatever we like

Exactly. And as a fan of the language, I've the right to have my own opinion. charghwI':

Okrand or Paramount could sweep aside our suggestions on whim by presenting some other succession

I've never suggested anything. charghwI':

So, in terms of keeping the language going, I’m not that sure that your skills and SuStel’s skills necessarily ensure the survival of the language

I've never said that I have any considerable skill in klingon. Anyway, I'm just stating my opinion. Contrary to other people, I don't believe I'm someone important in the community, that my voice should be heard, or that anyone should waste time even reading what I write. So, will all due respect, if anyone is irritated by my opinion on this matter, he can just press "delete". t - chaHvaD po'wI' luDamlu' luneHqu' 'op, 'ej not 'e' vIyajlaH. nguqHa'choHchugh 'op, qabbe'. - wa' jaj 'utlh moj 'oqranD; jajvetlh ghu' lubop mu'wIj. - teH, 'ej Holvam vIlle' jIHmo' je, vuDwIj tlhIn vIghajlaH. - not vay' vIchuppu'. - < vItlh tlhIngan Hol laHwIj > not jIjatlhpu'. tlhIngan nughDaq potlh 'op 'e' luHar 'op, 'a not jIHvaD potlhwI' vIDamchoHpu'. < vuDwIj qelnISlu' > not jIjatlhpu'. < Hoch vIqonbogh laDnIS Hoch > not jIjatlhpu'. jIHvaD poHDaj lo'Ha'nIS pagh. vaj, jIyI', 'a vay' berghchoHmoH Sojvam bopbogh vuDwIj'e', {Qaw'} 'uynIS.

The only meaningful response is that I find it interesting that you consider yourself to be the arbiter of who is an expert, and you consider this boundary to be deeply important. Full disclosure: I consider myself to be better than most because of my experience as a Beginners’ Grammarian and because of my long history with the language, but “better than most” is only meaningful because “most” haven’t worked as hard at it as I have for as long as I have. Being Beginners’ Grammarian is an experience that pushes people harder to improve themselves than most people manage as self-motivation. It’s one of the reasons SuStel is as good as he is. But I don’t consider myself to be among the best anymore. I’m rusty, and life doesn’t really give me the spare time to prioritize regaining currency, and I’m okay with that. I’m not really into fame and glory. I openly acknowledge that while I’m credited as an editor for The Klingon Hamlet, none of my edits made it into the book because very early on the author I was editing, who was an adolescent at the time, made it clear that he would accept no edits, since he already considered everything he had written to be perfect. When I objected to being in the credits, I was told to let it slide, since it could serve as an odd equivalent to acknowledgment for other less visible things I’d done, like creating the original New Words List or giving Okrand his first annotated (with sources listed) dictionary of his own words, which he had scattered about his home on scraps of paper. As an example of his quirky sense of humor, he passed an error he’d found in my Annotated Klingon Dictionary into the lexicon of one of the later books, not that it matters much. Basically, I was at the first person to think of citing sources in my personal lexicon of the language, which proved useful for resolving people’s conflicting memories of whether or not a word was “real”. Obviously others have dug far deeper at organizing canon in ways that allow retrieval. I’m deeply impressed at the quality of this work and the generosity of time given to serve others toward this end. But my contributions are strictly historical. Others took over the New Words List a decade or two ago, and boQwI’ is handier anyway. So, I’m not offended by not being counted as an expert. If you are expecting otherwise, you don’t know me and you misunderstand my motives badly enough to misinterpret stuff I say. SuStel and ghunchu’wI’ are the other people who still write here and were here back in the day when I was among the experts. Others of the Old Guard may lurk here and very, VERY rarely write in. I’m still here out of habit as much as anything else. It’s so familiar. I’ve left and returned a couple times, and basically I’m not as passionate about it as I once was, so I’m less likely to leave in a huff, which is the only way I’ve ever left before. I’d need some new reason to leave at this point. I mostly haven’t left because I’ve seen so many others leave and feel the list is worse for their absence. Meanwhile, expertise is a lot like “intelligence”. It matters less than what you do with it. It’s like MENSA membership. So? How do you use your expertise to benefit others, or to spread the language or make it more robust as a movement? I’m not doing much with mine, but I’m also not trying to draw lines between those who are experts and those who are not. I just want people to enjoy the language as a fun project; as an interesting mind game to help one expand one’s capacity to have thoughts that English might not provide an efficient framework for developing. My capacity for thought has been expanded by each language I’ve dabbled in. I genuinely wish this wider capacity were enjoyed by more people, hence my interest in the perpetuation of the Klingon language. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)

On Dec 24, 2021, at 7:10 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

e

charghwI':

...

It’s clear that you don’t consider me to be an expert. Same for the original Grammarian

Interesting.. According to the klingon wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/RichYampell

***** quote starts ***** Rich Yampell (Klingon name Qanqor or "Krankor") is a very experienced Klingonist and the first official grammarian of the KLI. He wrote regular grammatical columns in HolQeD, summarized in a book named The Grammarian's Desk in 1997. He was one of the instructors at the first Klingon Language Camp. At qep'a' javDIch in 1999 he received the award of being a Friend of Maltz. ***** quote ends *****

But, there is something very interesting written by SuStel at the following thread: http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2016-July/000495.html

*****quote starts***** Krankor's grammar is /not/ to be interpreted as canonical, or even good. Much of what he wrote was composed before a lot of later information was obtained, and Krankor largely refuses to update his understanding of the language when new information appears or when our understanding of the grammar changes.

Upon his learning of something new Okrand has said regarding the grammar, I have heard him flatly refuse to follow it simply because he didn't like it. *****quote ends*****

So charghwI', why should I consider an expert a person who "largely refuses to update his understanding of the language when new information appears or when our understanding of the grammar changes. Upon his learning of something new Okrand has said regarding the grammar, I have heard him flatly refuse to follow it simply because he didn't like it."?

And you don't have to answer because the answer is self-evident: I shouldn't.

t

- Daj.. SovmoH klingon wiki - 'a Dajqu'bogh vay' jatlhpu' SuStel - vaj charghwI', qatlh Sarvam nuvvaD po'wI' vIDamnIS? 'ej bIjangnISbe', nIteb nom janglaHmo' vay': Sarvam nuvvaD po'wI' vIDamnISbe'ba'.

-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

De'vID:

If your perception of the Klingon-speaking community is based on who's willing to participate in such discussions on this mailing list, your sample may be rather skewed

I know that it may seem that way, but during the past four years I've read every thread in the facebook learn klingon group too. Although there are people there, who by some are considered experts, I've never read a single reply by them which one could classify as "the reply of an expert". .. And if someone wonders "then why are you there?", the answer is because I want to read the replies of you and SuStel. Also, when I came to this list 6 years ago, people who by some are considered to be experts were active here, participating in threads. But reading these threads again, I can't find a single reason to accept any of them as true expert. And in the past, I've scrolled through discord without again finding any message of value. An expert is an expert because he knows things an ordinary person doesn't. An expert is an expert because he can explain things no other can. An expert is someone whose words when read, you think "so this is what's happening! I could never think of that on my own". And the only people whose posts make me think that way are your's and SuStel's. A ferrari is a ferrari because it has a number of characteristics no other car has. And some cars will never be a ferrari. That's the truth. It's not bad not having one, but it's ridiculous trying to convince others that your run-of-the-mill car is indeed a ferrari. Of course this is just my opinion, and everyone is free to believe whatever he wants to believe. But I refuse to accept as experts people who haven't demonstrated the slightest ability of an expert. Because, as we say in Greece "the teacher next to who you'll sit, will determine the things you'll learn"; meaning that the teacher you'll accept and trust will determine how good you'll become. If I took any of these people seriously, I wouldn't be able to even write "my name is.." in Klingon. t teHlaw'; 'a qaStaHvIS loS DIS vorgh, Hoch facebook learn klingon ghom QIn vIlaDpu' je. pa' 'op nuv tu'lu', 'ej chaHvaD po'wI' luDamlu', 'a jangmeH QInmeychaj vIlaDtaHvIS, not po'wI' mu'mey vItu'pu'. .. DaH SIvchoHchugh vay': < vaj qatlh pa' SoHtaH? > jIjang: < SoH SuStel je jangmeH QInmey vIlaD vIneHmo' > 'ej potlh latlh ngoD je; jav ben naDev vIpawpu', ngugh naDev chaHtaH 'op'e', jeS, 'ej 'opvamvaD po'wI' luDamlu'. pIj poHvam QIn tlheghmey vIlaDqa', 'a not nuvpu'vamvaD po'wI'na' vIDamchoHlaH. pa'logh, discord vIlaDpu', 'a not lo'laHbogh QIn vItu'pu'. nuv motlh Sov neH ghajlaH vay', po'wI' ghaHbe'bej. pagh'e' QIjlaHbogh vay' QIjlaHmo' vay', po'wI'na' ghaH nuvvam'e'. vay' mu'mey DalaDtaHvIS, bIQubchoHchugh < vaj QInvam 'oH QIjchu'ghach'e'! not nIteb QIjchu'ghach'e' 'otHa'pu'bogh nuvvam vIQublaHpu' > *nuvvam* ghaH po'wI'na''e'. 'ej yabwIjDaq mu'meyvam narghmoHlaH SoH SuStel je neH QInmey. 'op DI'on le'mo' ferrari 'oH ferrari'e', 'ej not ferrari moj 'op puH Duj. vItvam temlaH pagh. ferrari ghajbe'chugh vay', qabbe'. 'a ferrari 'oH puHDaj motlh'e' latlhpu'vaD 'e' ponmeH vay', nIDchugh, tagha' nuS'egh nuvvam. 'a vuDwIj neH vI'otHa', 'ej jaS HarlaH Hoch. 'a not po'wI'na' laH 'aghpu'chugh vay', vay'vamvaD po'wI' vIDamQo'. 'elaDya'Daq wa' vIttlhegh tu'lu': < ghojmoHwI' retlhDaq bIba'; tagha' Sov Dachavbogh perchu' ghojmoHwI'vam'e' > povchugh ghojmoHwI'vam, pov je tagha' ghojmoHwI'vammo' Sov Dachavpu'bogh. ngoDvam Del vIttleghvam. tlhIngan Hol vIlo'taHvIS, vabDot < .. 'oH pongwIj'e' > jIjatlhlaHbe'chu', Sarvam nuvpu' vIvoqpu'chugh. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ

If a committee was formed, it should represent the community as a larger whole. As Tim Stoffel said, "enthusiasts", not "experts". As Okrand himself said, those who use the language should influence its development. Not all members must have linguistic background (although some of them should). I don't want the committee to be formed from a clique of friends that have known each other for decades. Instead, it should have members from different backgrounds. The procedure for appointing a member should be open and transparent and handled by a neutral body (so not for example the current KLI that is a private corporation not governed by the community). As for word requests, I want to believe that Klingon is a language one can use to say anything. If that is true, any word request should be able to be answered, as of course one should be able to say the requested thing in Klingon. But the answer might not be a new word, it might be an existing word or phrase that can be used for that purpose. To make sure that no one person can change the language, making up new words or grammar should require a majority vote or an unanimous decision, depending on the impact of the proposed change. I believe that all these things can be solved by the community. The resulting language will not be Okrand's Klingon anymore, and it will be disappointing, but we should be able to move on. The new Klingon could be compared to eg. Latin. There is the historical Latin, and then there is a new Latin that the scientific community, the Vatican and other groups have expanded to cover new concepts that didn't exist when Latin was a living language. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio https://klingonia.fi ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Sunday, December 26th, 2021 at 13.48, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

e

Returning to the original subject, there's the matter of objectivity of such a committee which needs to be discussed.

A fan asks for a word, and the committee responds that such a word is unnecessary. But one can wonder:

1. If a member of that committee is hired by lets say a software company, in order to translate something for them, and a new word is needed, then what will that committee member think of first? The needs of the language, or the needs of his bank account? 2. Would someone who's into klingon professionaly accept to join such a committee in the first place, if the prerequisite was not to use klingon professionaly, in order to ensure his objectivity? 3. Any member of such a commitee could deny the request of an simple, ordinary fan. But if another member of the same committee wanted a word, then would the other members deny the request of their buddies? Because chances are that the people of that committee would already know each other for decades.

t

QIn tlheghvam Soj wa'DIch vIDIghqa'. wuqtaHvIS Sarvam yej, yejvam SIghbe'lu''a'?

wa' mu' chu' HevmeH wa' Hol vIlle', tlhob, 'a tagha' jang yejvam: <

'utbe' mu'vam >. 'a SIvchoH vay':

1. nIqHom malja'vaD vay' mughmeH wa' yejvam jeSwI', nuvvam DIl

malja'vam, 'ej ngoQvam chavmeH nuvvam, mu' chu' chennISmoH nuvvam;

chay' ngugh vang nuvvam? wa'DIch nuq qel 'ej buS? mu'mey'e'

ghajnISbogh Hol qel'a' 'ej buS'a'? beylI' HuchDaj qel'a' 'ej buS'a'? 2. nuvvam SIghbe'lu'meH, - Sarvam yejDaq jeStaHvIS - not Holmo' Huch

HevnISqa'chugh nuvvam, DuHvam lajqang'a' nuvvam, Sarvam yejDaq

jeSchoHpu'pa'? 3. vIlle' motlh, vIlle' le'be' chabal lajlaHQo' Sarvam yej jeSwI'. 'a

yejvam jeSwI' chabal lulajlaHQo''a' latlh yejvam jeSwI'? maqochchaj

lubelHa'qangmoH'a' latlh yejvam jeSwI'? yejvamDaq jeSchoHpu'pa' 'op,

qaStaHvIS maH DIS poH law', juppu' chaHchugh, chay' wa' nuv chabal

lajlaHQo' latlh?

--

Dana'an

https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/

Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ

tlhIngan-Hol mailing list

tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org

http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

If what you say is indeed the case (and I don't doubt you that this is correct), then the onus falls upon the KLI to spearhead and support an effort to ensure a future for the Klingon language. They need to form a committee, or some other, perhaps more formal structure to do this. It may not or maybe should not be done today, but they need to start thinking through what will eventually need to be done. Something tells me that many people here are also involved in some way with the KLI. Everything discussed so far here also applies to any effort put forth by the KLI. Any 'democratic' effort to do this without some formality and a few rules/principles/standards, is doomed to failure. Such a framework will help in the future should a group or committee, involved with the KLI or not, cease doing 'the good work', and another groupor committee in the future form to take up the work of the failed first committee. As for legal defense, perhaps this group and the KLI need to look at work that the Language Creation Society has done in terms of copyrights on constructed languages. They contributed a carefully research amicus brief to the court in the Paramount vs Axanar case. I believe there is a version of the brief available for public consumption. In the end, I suspect that common sense would inform Paramount that the work on Klingon being done outside the movie set is valuable to them, and not something that could be done in a quality way within their organization. Moviegoers, especially in the Science Fiction/Fantasy genres are no longer happy with goobliegook. They want languages that really function as languages, and of these, I think Klingon is foremost by a long shot. That alone should help ensure a future for an arguably successful conlang. A publishible Klingon NT? I would be interested in learning more. It might even make me get serious about learning Klingon and learning it well. Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org, Iikka Hauhio <fergusq@protonmail.com> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] hard truths about the future Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:05:13 -0500 Someone should say this: Paramount doesn’t really own the Klingon language because languages are not really intellectual property, but I’m not sure that Paramount’s lawyers care whether that’s true or not. They are quite capably of “protecting their intellectual property” at a cost that would destroy us even if they were unsuccessful. They can easily abuse “discovery” requirements forcing us to provide absurd quantities of evidence we lack the resources to collect, causing us to forfeit any legal case they choose to provide simply because we can’t afford to be in the same courtroom they are in. The KLI has secured a license from Paramount to use the Klingon language. That’s nothing to sneeze at. That’s why Paramount’s publisher has published all the Klingon stuff, and that’s why a certain book on Klingon martial arts that some people have illegal copies of, was printed, but not legally published because of a court case that required all copies be destroyed. That’s why the first “completed” translation of the New Testament is not on bookshelves next to The Klingon Hamlet. So, brushing off the KLI as if they were an annoyance somehow standing in the way of progress of The Way Things Should Be is a little short- sighted. It’s not like membership is exclusive. If you want in, you pretty much are in. Dues aren’t particularly egregious. And years of experience with the language is not a spectacularly bad thing. The KLI has made honest effort to keep the language consistent and foster its progress in a reasonably organized way. They have proven their willingness and ability to handle this responsibility, and you seem to want them to be booted out of the way, by default, from a proposed committee of people who will… start doing what Okrand and the KLI have been doing for decades?

From scratch?

Because… being enthusiastic is more valuable than decades of experience… among people who are… enthusiastic? I’m not even a member anymore, and I don’t want to be on such a committee, but I have to speak up for the KLI. You don’t scrap the KLI and start over from scratch. You just don’t. You can grow the KLI toward some new direction, just as every group evolves, but you don’t self-righteously piss on the KLI. You just don’t. Stop fantasizing that as Step One of some new process where The People get to run the language. The People can join the KLI. That’s Step One.

jatlh Will Martin:

Paramount doesn’t really own the Klingon language because languages are not really intellectual property,

In addition, they never hired Marc Okrand to create a language. They hired him to translate some dialogue. He created the language on his own. Paramount (et al.) own the lines from the movies (and arguably, the lines that Okrand provided, but were not included in the movies). And through PocketBooks they also own that specific presentation of the language. But I think even their lawyers would be hard pressed to come up with a claim that they own the language.

but I’m not sure that Paramount’s lawyers care whether that’s true or not. They are quite capably of “protecting their intellectual property” at a cost that would destroy us even if they were unsuccessful. They can easily abuse “discovery” requirements forcing us to provide absurd quantities of evidence we lack the resources to collect, causing us to forfeit any legal case they choose to provide simply because we can’t afford to be in the same courtroom they are in.

Not only could they force us to spend a lot of money we don't have in order to prove that we have the right to use the language, but they might have a legitimate trademark claim against whomever for using the word "Klingon". Jeremy

On Dec 26, 2021, at 6:49 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

1. If a member of that committee is hired by lets say a software company, in order to translate something for them, and a new word is needed, then what will that committee member think of first? The needs of the language, or the needs of his bank account?

1. nIqHom malja'vaD vay' mughmeH wa' yejvam jeSwI', nuvvam DIl malja'vam, 'ej ngoQvam chavmeH nuvvam, mu' chu' chennISmoH nuvvam; chay' ngugh vang nuvvam? wa'DIch nuq qel 'ej buS? mu'mey'e' ghajnISbogh Hol qel'a' 'ej buS'a'? beylI' HuchDaj qel'a' 'ej buS'a'?

ghu' qIt DajalnISbe'. mughwI' DIlbogh malja' DanuDlaH. vIt DaSamlaH. Hol'e' vuvlu'. jISaghchu'. I realize you meant this as a hypothetical, but you can look at the real life examples of people who do Klingon translations for hire, and you can observe the results. Among people who are recognized as experts in Klingon, the first duty is to the *language*. Seriously. quprIp Da ghomvam 'e' vIpIH. chut cherbe'. 'a'ghen vuD'a' much. qech DelmeH mu'mey chup. ghaytan ghomvam vuDmeymo' HeQqang jatlhwI'pu' motlh, 'ach lobnIS net raDbe'. I imagine such a committee as acting like a council of elders, providing experience-based opinions on how to express ideas. Its responses would have the weight of consensus, not of fiat. I expect that new vocabulary would be *exceedingly* rare. -- ghunchu'wI'

jIH:

1. If a member of that committee is hired by lets say a software company, in order to translate something for them, and a new word is needed, then what will that committee member think of first? The needs of the language, or the needs of his bank account? ghunchu'wI': I realize you meant this as a hypothetical

Yes, you're right. It's just a hypothetical question. And I'd like to clarify, that in no way am I referring to specific people anywhere on this thread (with the exception of the names I've already written). Nor am I indirectly describing anyone in particular. Everything written in this thread by me were my personal thoughts, and it was nowhere my intention to portray specific people. ghunchu'wI':

you can look at the real life examples of people who do Klingon translations for hire, and you can observe the results. Among people who are recognized as experts in Klingon, the first duty is to the *language*.

I'm very happy to hear that. ghunchu'wI':

Seriously.

I believe you. In the past, we often may have misunderstood each other, and repeatedly argued too, but I've never doubted your honesty. I truly believe that you always speak the truth, and I respect that. t - bIlugh. ghu'mo' vIjalpu'bogh jISIvchoHpu'. qaS wanI'vam neH. 'ej DaH vay' vIQIjnISchu' je: qaStaHvIS QIn tlheghvam, 'op pongmey vIjatlhpu', 'a pagh latlh vIDelpu'. pagh nuv luDel mu'wIj. buSHachmeywIj tlhIn vISovmoHpu', 'ej not vay' le' vIDelpu'. - mu'meyvam Dajatlhmo', jIbel. - qaHar. pa'logh roD mayajHa'chuqpu', 'ej maSolpu'. teH. 'a bIyuDHa', 'ej not 'e' vIHon. reH bIvIt 'e' vIHarchu', 'ej bIvItmo', qavuv. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ