As someone who has a copy of TKD on my bookshelf, I'm inclined to agree with the two-word interpretation, although I also originally parsed it as one word. However, as a historical linguist, I'm tempted to point out that the {-taH} verb suffix is almost certain etymologically derived from the verb {taH} or vice versa. Given that information, whether or not the {-taH} actually connects to the verb starts looking a bit less important. We'd only be able to hear the difference if (a) the {taHjaj} were preceded by an adverbial, or (b) the {maH} took the {-neS} suffix. Perhaps the {-taH} morpheme has become a full-fledged suffix in most cases, but remains (somewhat) separate in a few edge cases, such as when {-jaj} is used. - SapIr, who On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 01:27:35AM +0000, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

...

-taHjaj violates the rule that - jaj isn't used with vs7.

It's worth noting that so do «wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran» and «wo' ghawran DevtaHjaj», which are used in KGT to illustrate toast grammar. Could be seen as a mistake, but then again, using mu'mey ru' in toasts and wishes appeals to me somehow.

In any event, it's been clarified by Mary Chieffo that the sentence means "We are Klingon, let it remain.", which strongly suggests that it's «tlhIngan maH. taHjaj.»

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/life/tv/2017/09/25/can-you-speak-klingon-sta...

...and an even stronger indication is that when I transcribed the phrase as *tlhIngan maHtaHjaj* earlier this year, Qov pointed out the vs7 + -jaj rule to me. Now that we know she wrote it, that probably means there should indeed be a space in there :P

//loghaD

________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 23:09 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Marc Okrand talking about DSC (spoilerfree)

-taHjaj violates the rule that - jaj isn't used with vs7.

~Michael Roney, Jr. Sent from my Palm Pre

-------- Original message -------- From: André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> Date: 9/26/17 16:35 (GMT-05:00) To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Marc Okrand talking about DSC (spoilerfree)

Interesting, thanks for this video!

When I heard the Klingons say their favorite sentence several times in the show, I understood it as: {tlhIngan maHtaHjaj.}, literally 'May we continue to be Klingons.' - you had it as {tlhIngan maH. taHjaj.}, 'We are Klingons. May this continue.'

Both make sense, I prefer my interpretation with one verb. What say you?

- André

2017-09-26 22:22 GMT+02:00 Lieven <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>>: Hi there,

visit my channel on YouTube and find an exclusive interview with Marc Okrand talking about Star Trek: Discovery and pronouncing some of the new words which had been revealed at qep'a' 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBgW0YNHSfw

-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

With regards to the all klingon trailer, and since my ability to understand spoken klingon is worst than absolutely ridiculous, can someone post the klingon passage ? And if this isn't possible, can someone at least tell me, how the concept of "individuality" is expressed ? qunnoq On Sep 27, 2017 09:39, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 27.09.2017 um 03:27 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:

...

It's worth noting that so do «wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran» and «wo' ghawran DevtaHjaj», which are used in KGT to illustrate toast grammar.

As you say, these are exceptions used in toasts, so that doesn't count.

...and an even stronger indication is that when I transcribed the phrase

...

as *tlhIngan maHtaHjaj* earlier this year, Qov pointed out the vs7 + -jaj rule to me. Now that we know she wrote it, that probably means there should indeed be a space in there :P

Or you just turn on the Klingon subtitles to check the spelling. :-)

-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

On 27 September 2017 at 09:18, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

With regards to the all klingon trailer, and since my ability to understand spoken klingon is worst than absolutely ridiculous, can someone post the klingon passage ?

I would highly recommend listening to the trailer until you understand the words. Other than I think the first sentence (and maybe second one), the rest are straightforward translations which any skilled Klingonist should be able to derive from the English subtitles. -- De'vID

On 27 September 2017 at 10:33, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

De'vID:

...

the rest are straightforward translations which any skilled Klingonist should be able to derive from the English subtitles

The difficulty I'm facing isn't in translating the english subtitles in klingon. I can do that quite easily.

The problem is that I can't understand a word of the spoken klingon..

For example, how would you translate "great leaders"? Keeping that in mind, are you saying that you can't hear it when he speaks the line that's subtitled "Great leaders, look to the stars..."? -- De'vID

On 9/27/2017 9:25 AM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

...

...

It's worth noting that so do «wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran» and «wo' ghawran DevtaHjaj», which are used in KGT to illustrate toast grammar. As you say, these are exceptions used in toasts, so that doesn't count. I don't believe the first example is meant to be an exception; according to KGT: "If uttered as a wish, hope, or aspiration - but not as a toast - the normal word order applies: {wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran} ("May Gowron continue to lead the empire")."

It might still be an error, though.

What you do is count up exceptional circumstances. If a given piece of canon (1) is a toast, which uses special grammar, and (2) violates a clear rule, that's two reasons to be uncertain about the correctness of that canon. The more reasons to doubt the grammar of an utterance, the less certain you can be of the explanation of that sentence. But we're not talking about Okrandian canon here; we're talking about stuff Qov wrote. Whether it's filmed or not, it has no more authority than Worf belching out /ka'blah'blah'cha,/ until Okrand says Maltz has an opinion on it. Naturally, Okrand would look at anything Qov wrote and say, "Oh, sure, that's because..." and give us an explanation. But until he does that, it's not canonical Klingon.

Personally, I like to use phrases such as {X-ta'jaj X-taHbogh Hoch.} to wish people success. I'm fine with those being {mu'mey ru'}, though.

But if you always do that, they're not really *mu'mey ru'.* You're taking the exceptions to the language and applying them generally, while telling yourself that you're not really doing that. It would be kind of like constantly telling people, /May you are happy/ or /May you are successful./ People would get you the first time they heard it, and figured you just flubbed the sentence in the moment, but if you kept saying that, they'd start to look at you funny. Someone would ask, "Why do you say /are /instead of /be/?" Now, violating the Klingon rule gives you a more versatile sentence than violating my English examples, and that's why you'd do it, but the effect on the listener would be similar. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 28 September 2017 at 01:08, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:

I also don't don't really think that reason (1) holds up, considering {wo' DevtaHjaj ghawran} is explicitly stated not to be a toast, in contrast with {wo' ghawran DevtaHjaj}.

It's also worth noting that paq'batlh contains two similar sentences (one of which is repeated three times). I'm generally very suspicious towards paq'batlh, in part because it is meant to be an old and poetic text, but mostly because we know it contains a lot of oddities.

The sentences are listed here:

http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PaqbatlhNewRules#A_2._Verb_45suffix_7_43_jaj

It's also worth noting that every exception has been with {-taH}, and never with {-pu'}, {-ta'}, or {-lI'}. Can I say {wo' DevlI'jaj ghawran}, if I don't like him? :-) (This reminds me of the bumper stickers which say "Pray for [some politician] - Psalm 109:8". That verse says "Let his days be few, and let another take his office".) -- De'vID

If your "special occasion" is "anytime I want to use aspect and -jaj,"

then the rule is completely abandoned. When would you not do it?

That would seem to describe every instance of mu'mey ru': You only use it when you want to use it. So far, I believe I've only ever used it when talking about refugees, in the sense that I want all who are currently fleeing to have-successfully-fled. I quite like the contrast between -taH and -ta' and find it quite effective. Other times I've used something like {Haw'ta'wI'pu' mojjaj Hoch Haw'taHwI'pu'.}, but that's less punchy to my mind. So, I suppose I'd use it when I think the desired effect is worth bending the rules, and otherwise not. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 02:24 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Marc Okrand talking about DSC (spoilerfree) On 9/27/2017 7:08 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

But if you always do that, they're not really mu'mey ru'. You're taking the exceptions to the

language and applying them generally, while telling yourself that you're not really doing that.

I don't really think that's true, unless it catches on in a big way and starts being considered "correct" to some extent, or was treated as an ordinary expression. It seems to match the definition of {mu'mey ru'}: "Sometimes words or phrases are coined for a specific occasion, intentionally violating grammatical rules in order to have an impact. Usually these are never heard again, though some gain currency and might as well be classified as slang. Klingon grammarians call such forms {mu'mey ru'} ("temporary words")." I'll confess that when I first used this construction, I didn't realize that it was ungrammatical, so that was just a {Qaghna'}. Now I know, however, and intend to go on using it :) If your "special occasion" is "anytime I want to use aspect and -jaj," then the rule is completely abandoned. When would you not do it? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

But only in an informal context, right? You wouldn't, for instance,

send a report to your superior with your mu'mey ru' in it, right?

If the report is meant to be purely informative, then probably not. If it's meant to be evocative, then possibly. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 02:43 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Marc Okrand talking about DSC (spoilerfree) On 9/27/2017 8:30 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote: So far, I believe I've only ever used it when talking about refugees, in the sense that I want all who are currently fleeing to have-successfully-fled. I quite like the contrast between -taH and -ta' and find it quite effective. Other times I've used something like {Haw'ta'wI'pu' mojjaj Hoch Haw'taHwI'pu'.}, but that's less punchy to my mind. So, I suppose I'd use it when I think the desired effect is worth bending the rules, and otherwise not. But only in an informal context, right? You wouldn't, for instance, send a report to your superior with your mu'mey ru' in it, right? You wouldn't, for instance, submit a report that said Earnings were down this quarter because reasons. That's an example of a mu' ru'; that's similar to the effect of using an aspect suffix and -jaj together. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

De'vID:

Get to practising, then.

I wish I could, but how ? In order to develop listening skills, the same goes as in writing. One must start from simple, and work his way up, through intermediate, to the more complex. I don't think such videos, exist. All I can find is either simple sentences spoken by lieven, or normal spoken klingon... qunnoq On Sep 28, 2017 08:55, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

De'vID:

...

Get to practising, then.

I wish I could, but how ? In order to develop listening skills, the same goes as in writing. One must start from simple, and work his way up, through intermediate, to the more complex.

I don't think such videos, exist. All I can find is either simple sentences spoken by lieven, or normal spoken klingon...

mayqel

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:

...

...

But only in an informal context, right? You wouldn't, for instance,

...

send a report to your superior with your mu'mey ru' in it, right?

If the report is meant to be purely informative, then probably not.

If it's meant to be evocative, then possibly.

________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 02:43 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Marc Okrand talking about DSC (spoilerfree)

On 9/27/2017 8:30 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

So far, I believe I've only ever used it when talking about refugees, in the sense that I want all who are currently fleeing to have-successfully-fled. I quite like the contrast between -taH and -ta' and find it quite effective. Other times I've used something like {Haw'ta'wI'pu' mojjaj Hoch Haw'taHwI'pu'.}, but that's less punchy to my mind.

So, I suppose I'd use it when I think the desired effect is worth bending the rules, and otherwise not.

But only in an informal context, right? You wouldn't, for instance, send a report to your superior with your mu'mey ru' in it, right?

You wouldn't, for instance, submit a report that said Earnings were down this quarter because reasons. That's an example of a mu' ru'; that's similar to the effect of using an aspect suffix and -jaj together.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name

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You're correct Sa'pIr; but where can I find that ? qunnoq On Sep 28, 2017 20:15, "kechpaja" <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 06:02:18PM +0300, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

...

De'vID:

...

Get to practising, then.

I wish I could, but how ? In order to develop listening skills, the same goes as in writing. One must start from simple, and work his way up, through intermediate, to the more complex.

I don't think such videos, exist. All I can find is either simple sentences spoken by lieven, or normal spoken klingon...

It's true that spoken Klingon material can be a bit hard to find, but that doesn't mean you can't find something that's simpler than a full-speed conversation. I would recommend that you start by listening to something (not necessarily the trailer that just came out) for which you have a transcript, and follow along with the transcript. Go through it several times, until you can make out all of the words.

- SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

And of course you should listen to Conversational Klingon and Power Klingon, both read by Marc Okrand. They’re available as cassette tapes, CDs, and probably online by now. Transcripts of everything on them are easily available but I recommend transcribing and analyzing the grammar yourself, without looking at the transcript for every sentence. Wait until your completely done. --Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of qurgh lungqIj Try this series of videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3G1gSWuy7Y Some of the sounds aren't perfect, but he's getting better, and it's a good place to start training your ear (and your mouth). If you have the paq'batlh, you could listen to my recording of the first book: https://soundcloud.com/qurgh/sets/paqbatlh-paqyav I'm not perfect either, but it should get you started. qurgh On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 1:17 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: You're correct Sa'pIr; but where can I find that ? qunnoq On Sep 28, 2017 20:15, "kechpaja" <kechpaja@comcast.net<mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net>> wrote: On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 06:02:18PM +0300, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

De'vID:

...

Get to practising, then.

I wish I could, but how ? In order to develop listening skills, the same goes as in writing. One must start from simple, and work his way up, through intermediate, to the more complex.

I don't think such videos, exist. All I can find is either simple sentences spoken by lieven, or normal spoken klingon...

It's true that spoken Klingon material can be a bit hard to find, but that doesn't mean you can't find something that's simpler than a full-speed conversation. I would recommend that you start by listening to something (not necessarily the trailer that just came out) for which you have a transcript, and follow along with the transcript. Go through it several times, until you can make out all of the words. - SapIr _______________________________________________

Lawrence M Schoen, qurgh, and voragh thank you for your suggestions ! I will start practicing right away. qunnoq On Sep 28, 2017 8:59 PM, "Lawrence M. Schoen" <klingonguy@gmail.com> wrote:

There's also the year's worth of daily Klingon podcasts that I did back in 2014. You'll find them on my website (lawrencemschoen.com) by searching for "DaHjaj Hol". They tend to be quite short, just a few minutes each.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 1:42 PM qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:

...

Try this series of videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3G1gSWuy7Y

Some of the sounds aren't perfect, but he's getting better, and it's a good place to start training your ear (and your mouth).

If you have the paq'batlh, you could listen to my recording of the first book: https://soundcloud.com/qurgh/sets/paqbatlh-paqyav I'm not perfect either, but it should get you started.

-- Dr. Lawrence M. Schoen :: author :: publisher :: psychologist :: hypnotist :: klingonist :::: Campbell, Hugo, Nebula, & WSFS Award nominee ::::: Cóyotl Award winner :::: www.lawrencemschoen.com ::: www.papergolem.com ::: www. hypnosis4writers.com

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