On 4/21/2019 11:38 AM, Will Martin wrote:

Do we know that Klingons wear underwear? Maybe it’s not a thing on Kronos.

I think you're right: there's not a thong on Kronos. Maybe *churHa'meH Sut.* Or *churHa'meH bIng Sut.* Or even just *bIng Sut.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

English used the term "small clothes" in the 17th thru 19th centuries, and there are still instances of it being used today. So why not «Sut mach»?

On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 3:18 PM Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:

On Apr 21, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Lawrence M. Schoen <klingonguy@gmail.com> wrote:

English used the term "small clothes" in the 17th thru 19th centuries, and there are still instances of it being used today. So why not «Sut mach»?

I was about to suggest {SutHom}, which I think works in most contexts where I would say “underwear”.

Yes, of course. «SutHom» is much better than «Sut mach», if for no other reason than because you can say «mach SutHom» when they're too snug.

charghwI':

{So’lu’bogh Sut}

Did you mean {So'bogh Sut} ? What's with the {-lu'} ? Anyways, from the suggestions so far, I prefer ghunchu'wI's {SutHom}. So, it's time to write the original sentence, which led me to ask about "underwear" in the first place: {ghawran voqHa'pu'mo' wo'rIv, wo'rIv nach DungDaq wo'rIv SutHom luHta' ghawran} because worf disrespected gowron, gowron gave him a wedgie Although, I wonder.. If someone hadn't read this thread, would he understand that I mean "wedgie" ? ~ m. qunen'oS

I should eschew answering Klingon messages on my phone. It makes me careless and stupid, creating a text-based selfie with a silly expression. Sut So’lu’bogh. In ancient times, one hid one’s underwear with outerwear. Then Madonna wore underwear AS outerwear. Others followed suit. Then hip hop culture wore brightly colored, flashy boxer shorts revealed by pants fit loosely enough to require a free hand to hold up the waistline in the front, or brightly colored bras with lacy straps worn with strapless or off-the-shoulder outerwear featuring enough of a view of the bra to pretty much figure out what the rest of it looks like, color-coordinated with a spangled thong with waistband and spaghetti strap revealed in the back. More current fashion has women in {nIvnav} attending college classes, so underwear becomes optional. HIja’. jIqanba’. jISaHbe’. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Apr 22, 2019, at 10:05 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

charghwI':

...

{So’lu’bogh Sut}

Did you mean {So'bogh Sut} ? What's with the {-lu'} ?

Anyways, from the suggestions so far, I prefer ghunchu'wI's {SutHom}.

So, it's time to write the original sentence, which led me to ask about "underwear" in the first place:

{ghawran voqHa'pu'mo' wo'rIv, wo'rIv nach DungDaq wo'rIv SutHom luHta' ghawran} because worf disrespected gowron, gowron gave him a wedgie

Although, I wonder.. If someone hadn't read this thread, would he understand that I mean "wedgie" ?

~ m. qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 18:32, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps someone should ask maltz, next time he sees him, whether he's wearing underwear, or "goes kommando"..

Perhaps Klingons don't normally wear underwear, but only *put on* underwear when they "go commando"... -- De'vID

Seqram, brilliant as he is, should know to be more careful with his utterances. Witness {‘I’}. If Okrand accepts {lumnaH} (a BEAUTIFUL pun), then it would be at least the second word that Seqram invented and Okrand adopted. As if there were anyone here who didn’t know the history of {‘I’}: Before there was much focus on sources in dictionary entries, someone asked if we had a word for “armpit”, and someone from the list insisted that we did, and that word was {‘I’}. Nobody else could remember ever seeing the word before, but that person insisted that he got the word from this list and he was positive that it was a real Klingon word. We argued about it for a week or so before ghunchu’wI’ went back into the archives and found a discussion that included a comment from Seqram about how important it is that we limit our vocabulary to canon sources, because otherwise it would be impossible for someone new to the language, who had bought all the books and seen all the movies, etc., but never knew the KLI existed to know that, independent of any of these canon sources, the KLI had agreed that {‘I’} meant “armpit”. He was just making up an intentionally absurd example. So, having found the source, we all knew that we needed to be careful to site sources, or we’d just get weird words tossed into the language at random. It was silly that this random utterance got preserved, its source forgotten. At the next qep’a’, we told this story to Okrand and we all laughed, and as it got quiet after, he grinned and quietly said, “Well, of course, you know that there really is a Klingon word for ‘armpit’, right?” We were all astonished and wide-eyed fell for it, hook, line, and sinker as he said, “The word is, {‘I’}.” And… so, it became canon with a wave of his magic wand. We had a great laugh and got a new word. Poof. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Apr 24, 2019, at 8:45 AM, Brent Kesler <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com> wrote:

I have to share a memory.

At qep'a' vaghDIch I was talking with Seqram. KGT had just come out, and we were discussing all the puns that Okrand put into the new vocabulary. Seqram joked that when we finally learned the word for underwear, it'd turn out to be lumnaH. ("Fruit of the Loom" is a common brand of underwear in the US.)

For twenty-five years, I've been hoping Okrand would prove him right.

bI'reng

On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 11:16 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: Does anyone have any ideas on how to say "underwear" ?

The only thing which comes to mind, is {qoD Sut}, but this brings to my mind clothes which one wears indoors.

~ m. qunen'oS good.. good.. let Ca'Non flow through you

_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org> _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

I defer to your account, given your widely acknowledged and admired phonographic memory. This was a loooooooong time ago, and I trust your memory more than mine. I mostly remember his delivery and the laughter. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Apr 24, 2019, at 2:27 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 4/24/2019 2:13 PM, Will Martin wrote:

...

At the next qep’a’, we told this story to Okrand and we all laughed, and as it got quiet after, he grinned and quietly said, “Well, of course, you know that there really is a Klingon word for ‘armpit’, right?”

We were all astonished and wide-eyed fell for it, hook, line, and sinker as he said, “The word is, {‘I’}.”

And… so, it became canon with a wave of his magic wand. We had a great laugh and got a new word. Poof. I always feel it necessary to offer my alternative memory of the event.

Recall first that this was Okrand's first qep'a', and we were under strict orders not to pressure him for new words or clarifications. He was very uncomfortable with the idea of appearing in front of the group, and we were supposed to not scare him off.

We were gathered around a circle, with those toward the center sitting in chairs and the rest of us standing around the periphery. Okrand was near the middle, because we'd sort of accumulated around him. Some people were telling funny stories of conversations that had happened on the list, and the story of 'I' had come up. I was watching Okrand as the story was being told, by Seqram, I believe, and it was clear to me that he wasn't quite following it. When Seqram finished, and everyone was laughing, Okrand, still seeming confused, asked something like, "Wait, what is the word for armpit?" It was a very quiet question.

We couldn't take it anymore. As one, everyone in that group leaned forward and laughed, replying, in various words, "Yeah! What IS the word for armpit?"

And then it clicked for him that 'I' wasn't a real Klingon word, and that's why the story was funny. Okrand, completely deadpan, paused for just a moment and said, just as quietly, "'I'."

The room exploded in laughter.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

Am 29.04.2019 um 13:10 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:

I always wondered, if we have the {-Ha'} on a word, which could take different meaning depending on whether we read the {-Ha'} as "mis-", "-de", or "-dis", then how would we decide which of the three was to be understood.

I think this is really just an English translation probem, not a Klingon one. From a Klingon point of view, the suffix can mean the opposite of the word, and also the do-wrong-version of the verb. It's probably a thing one just has to learn and memorize. Just like you, I can't think of an example right now, but other languages also has several words that one just needs to memorize. Why does Sean not ryhme with Dean? Depending on pronunciation, the German word "umfahren" can mean run over, but also drive around something. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery

Am 29.04.2019 um 13:46 schrieb De'vID:

There was recently a long thread about this with the subject "Klingon Word of the Day: yItlhHa'", where I analysed every instance of {-Ha'} in canon.

That was a message of March 22, 2019. For future reference, I have it archived (and expanded) on the Wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/UndoSuffix -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de

On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 7:09 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

SuStel:

...

I don't think the Klingon verb vuvHa' disrespect means this. I think vuv refers to how someone feels about someone else, not how someone treats someone else.

I always wondered, if we have the {-Ha'} on a word, which could take different meaning depending on whether we read the {-Ha'} as "mis-", "-de", or "-dis", then how would we decide which of the three was to be understood.

Unfortunately though, I can't think of an example right now..

Context. For instance, *mutlhHa'* could mean "disassemble, take apart" or "assemble wrongly". If I shout at my roommate *torgh! yorghmey DamutlhHa'pu' jay'!*, do I mean "Torg, you've taken apart the goddamn shelves!" or "Torg, you've put the goddamn shelves together wrong!"? It could go either way. In this case, you need to consider the previous and current status of the shelves. If Torg said he was going to make a minor repair to the bookshelf, and I come back to discover that the entire bookshelf has been reduced to its component pieces, then I probably mean the first one. The bookshelf was assembled, now it is not, so the "undo" meaning of *-Ha'* seems more likely. If Torg said he was going to put together the bookshelf he brought home from the Ikea System, and the end result has twelve screws left over and no right angles, then I probably mean the second one. The bookshelf was unassembled, now it is poorly assembled, so the "do wrongly" meaning of *-Ha'* seems more likely. Even if you couldn't tell which specific meaning of *-Ha'* I had in mind, you might still be able to provide an interpretation that could include both meanings: "Torg, you've fucked up the goddamn shelves!" And if you still can't tell, there's always *nuqjatlh?* If you're writing a sentence with an ambiguous *-Ha'* and want to make it clear, you can add another sentence afterwards, like they do in Krotmag: *torgh! yorghmey DamutlhHa'pu' jay'! DaH 'ay'mey Doj neH bIH!* *Torgh, you've fucked up the goddamn shelves! Now they're just a pile of parts!* *torgh! yorghmey DamutlhHa'pu' jay'! tu'HomI'raH DachenmoHpu'!* *Torgh, you've fucked up the goddamn shelves! You've made something useless!* (Or you could just use *lagh* "take apart, disassemble", which I forgot about until after I'd thought of this example.)

charghwI':

For myself, I consider, “When {-be’} is not negative enough, use {-Ha’}."

hmm.. This is indeed a very interesting approach, and although I'm sleepy as hell right now, from the few examples I'm able to think, this idea seems to actually apply. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. ~ m. qunen'oS Thou shalt not place type-7's after the 'e' of a sao