I would like to ask if the following are correct: tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam 'op SuvwI' soon, some of these warriors will fight tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI' soon, a number of these warriors will fight I feel that they are wrong, but I can't understand why. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On 11/27/2018 12:56 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam 'op SuvwI' soon, some of these warriors will fight
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI' soon, a number of these warriors will fight
I feel that they are wrong, but I can't understand why.
Neither is correct. *tugh Hargh 'op SuvwI'vam */Soon some of these warriors will fight (a major confrontation)./ *SuvwI'pu'vam mI'* means /these warriors' number, the number of these warriors./ Are they carrying a sign with an eight on it, and the sign is going to fight some other warriors' number in a duel? Note that it's not clear whether it makes a difference whether it's *'op SuvwI'vam *or *'op SuvwI'pu'vam.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
In Power Klingon there's a line: [Ho'Du'lIjDaq to'baj 'uSHom lughoDlu'bogh tu'lu'] with the translation [You've got some stuffed tobbaj leg in your teeth] Le mar. 27 nov. 2018, à 13 h 05, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> a écrit :
On 11/27/2018 12:56 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam 'op SuvwI' soon, some of these warriors will fight
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI' soon, a number of these warriors will fight
I feel that they are wrong, but I can't understand why.
Neither is correct.
*tugh Hargh 'op SuvwI'vam **Soon some of these warriors will fight (a major confrontation).*
*SuvwI'pu'vam mI'* means *these warriors' number, the number of these warriors.* Are they carrying a sign with an eight on it, and the sign is going to fight some other warriors' number in a duel?
Note that it's not clear whether it makes a difference whether it's *'op SuvwI'vam *or *'op SuvwI'pu'vam.*
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 1:05 PM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 11/27/2018 12:56 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam 'op SuvwI' soon, some of these warriors will fight
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI' soon, a number of these warriors will fight
I feel that they are wrong, but I can't understand why.
Neither is correct.
*tugh Hargh 'op SuvwI'vam **Soon some of these warriors will fight (a major confrontation).*
*SuvwI'pu'vam mI'* means *these warriors' number, the number of these warriors.* Are they carrying a sign with an eight on it, and the sign is going to fight some other warriors' number in a duel?
There is a bit from the paq'batlh (I don't have the citation and exact translation handy): *lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb* which is translated as something like "The same number of proud Klingons went with him." So it can apparently be used in the sense of "amount", at least with countable things. That said,* 'op SuvwI'vam* is sufficient on its own in this case, since unlike the paq'batlh example, you're not saying anything about the number of warriors.
jIH:
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI' soon, a number of these warriors will fight SuStel: SuvwI'pu'vam mI' means these warriors' number, the number of these warriors. Are they carrying a sign with an eight on it, and the sign is going to fight some other warriors' number in a duel?
So far so good. I understand SuStel's point. And I accept it. paq'batlh:
lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb
And here, things get strange. Since paq'batlh doesn't use punctuation, the only way I could see this sentence "in-keeping" with what has been said so far in this thread, is if it actually is: {lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem. mI' nIb} proud klingons accompany him. an equal number. Because, if this isn't the case, and the sentence punctuation-wise goes: {{lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb}, then the meaning goes "an equal number, e.g. 40, grows arms and legs, and starts the accompanying". If the paq'batlh sentence is to be accepted as correct, without a dot following the {Hem}, I really don't see how it is any different from the one of the initial sentences I wrote: {tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI'} "soon, a number of these warriors will fight". Unless, the klingons are selectively stupid.. When they hear, {tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI'}, they are such idiots, imagining "numbers owned by klingons" doing the fighting while the real klingon warriors sit by drinking coffee.. And when the hear {{lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb}, then suddenly qeylIS enlightens them, and suddenly - 'o of a miracle ! - they get it ! Or, it is just that whenever we see something written in a book, we have to bend over backwards in order to explain it and accept it. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On 11/29/2018 8:53 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
jIH:
tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI' soon, a number of these warriors will fight SuStel: SuvwI'pu'vam mI' means these warriors' number, the number of these warriors. Are they carrying a sign with an eight on it, and the sign is going to fight some other warriors' number in a duel? So far so good. I understand SuStel's point. And I accept it.
paq'batlh:
lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb And here, things get strange.
Since paq'batlh doesn't use punctuation, the only way I could see this sentence "in-keeping" with what has been said so far in this thread, is if it actually is:
{lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem. mI' nIb} proud klingons accompany him. an equal number.
Because, if this isn't the case, and the sentence punctuation-wise goes: {{lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb}, then the meaning goes "an equal number, e.g. 40, grows arms and legs, and starts the accompanying".
If the paq'batlh sentence is to be accepted as correct, without a dot following the {Hem}, I really don't see how it is any different from the one of the initial sentences I wrote: {tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI'} "soon, a number of these warriors will fight".
I think the difference is that /paq'batlh/ is talking about the /quantity/ of Klingons, while you are using /a number of/ as a synonym for /some. A number of/ is English idiom, and you're trying to literally translate the idiom. What /paq'batlh/ translates is not an idiom but literal. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
I think the difference is that paq'batlh is talking about the quantity of Klingons, while you are using a number of as a synonym for some. A number of is English idiom, and you're trying to literally translate the idiom. What paq'batlh translates is not an idiom but literal.
ok, don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to argue. I'm genuinely trying to understand.. The original sentence was: {tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI'} soon, a number of these warriors will fight When I wrote this sentence, I had in mind "soon, some (i.e. an unknown quantity) of these warriors will fight". I just can't see the difference between my sentence, and the paq'batlh one; is the difference that the paq'batlh sentence specifies the quantity, by saying "an equal number" ? Anyway, I'm not trying to say that my original sentence is correct; in fact in the first message of this thread, I wrote "I feel that they are wrong, but I can't understand why". And I'm perfectly happy to be writing {'op SuvwI'vam} or {'op SuvwI'pu'vam} for "some of these warriors". But I just can't see, how the paq'batlh sentence and the one I wrote, are actually any different. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On 11/29/2018 9:27 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
I think the difference is that paq'batlh is talking about the quantity of Klingons, while you are using a number of as a synonym for some. A number of is English idiom, and you're trying to literally translate the idiom. What paq'batlh translates is not an idiom but literal. ok, don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to argue. I'm genuinely trying to understand..
The original sentence was: {tugh, Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI'} soon, a number of these warriors will fight
When I wrote this sentence, I had in mind "soon, some (i.e. an unknown quantity) of these warriors will fight".
I just can't see the difference between my sentence, and the paq'batlh one; is the difference that the paq'batlh sentence specifies the quantity, by saying "an equal number" ?
Anyway, I'm not trying to say that my original sentence is correct; in fact in the first message of this thread, I wrote "I feel that they are wrong, but I can't understand why".
And I'm perfectly happy to be writing {'op SuvwI'vam} or {'op SuvwI'pu'vam} for "some of these warriors".
But I just can't see, how the paq'batlh sentence and the one I wrote, are actually any different.
*mI'* doesn't mean /an unknown number./ It means /number./ In the /paq'batlh/ sentence, *lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb,* the key difference is the presence of *nIb.* Without it, the sentence means /the number of proud Klingons accompany him/ — whatever that means. You're not saying /some/ in any way. If you wanted to say /an unknown number,/ and you didn't want to use *'op* for some reason, you could say *tugh Hargh SuvwI'pu'vam mI' Sovbe'lu'bogh*/Soon an unknown number of these warriors will fight a major fight./ But that sounds to me like you're making a point that you don't know how many warriors there will be, rather than just being vague about their numbers. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (4)
-
Jackson Bradley -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel