suppose I want to say: "this world, this life, I hate them". there are two ways to proceed: {qo'vam yInvam je vImuS} {qo'vam yInvam vImuS} I am wondering whether the {je} is necessary, thus making the second sentence wrong. I understand that perhaps at the second sentence one could get the meaning that "I hate this life", and being left to wonder what's the story with the {qo'vam}. but I think that context would clarify that. or perhaps without the {je}, someone could read "I hate this life of this world". but again, would this possible ambiguity be the problem, or is there some grammar reason because of which I should use the {je} ? perhaps I want this ambiguity, perhaps I find the feeling of this sentence to be better without the {je}.. so, all I want to know is "is the {je} necessary" ? is there some grammar reason because of which it is necessary ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 12/3/2016 1:37 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
suppose I want to say: "this world, this life, I hate them". there are two ways to proceed:
{qo'vam yInvam je vImuS} {qo'vam yInvam vImuS}
I am wondering whether the {je} is necessary, thus making the second sentence wrong.
I understand that perhaps at the second sentence one could get the meaning that "I hate this life", and being left to wonder what's the story with the {qo'vam}. but I think that context would clarify that.
or perhaps without the {je}, someone could read "I hate this life of this world". but again, would this possible ambiguity be the problem, or is there some grammar reason because of which I should use the {je} ?
perhaps I want this ambiguity, perhaps I find the feeling of this sentence to be better without the {je}..
so, all I want to know is "is the {je} necessary" ? is there some grammar reason because of which it is necessary ?
Your English original isn't "I hate this world, this life"; instead, the object of "I hate" is "them," referring to the topics you named before. To get the same effect in Klingon, use *-'e'*: *qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' je vImuS* Here I've made the two topics the object of the verb (but see below), in which case I definitely need to use a conjunction. There's another way to say this: *qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' [je?] bIH vImuS* In this case, the topic words are living in the same space that locations and indirect objects live, and aren't the object of the verb (which is *bIH*). It's unclear whether words of the same syntactic type (in this case, topics) need to be conjoined. But watch this: since I can elide the *bIH,* the sentence can look like this: *qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' [je?] vImuS* Now we see it's actually impossible to tell whether the topic words are objects of the verb or non-objects living in the "header" space. /If/ the *je* is not required on like "header" words then lacking the *je* would force the "header" interpretation. So the answer to your question, "is the *je* necessary?" is maybe. *qo' yIn je DamuSchugh bIghIQnISba'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 03.12.2016 um 19:37 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
suppose I want to say: "this world, this life, I hate them".
In english this may work, because the proniun shows that you hat both. In Klingon, since the pronoun does not indicate the object (in this case) it would not work, so I would immedialtly understand this as a possessive noun-noun construction. And I would say that it's even the case when the prefix would clearly show the plural.
{qo'vam yInvam je vImuS} {qo'vam yInvam vImuS}
I understand that perhaps at the second sentence one could get the meaning that "I hate this life", and being left to wonder what's the story with the {qo'vam}.
I understand "I hate this life which happens on this world", so "this world-life"
so, all I want to know is "is the {je} necessary" ? is there some grammar reason because of which it is necessary ?
Yes: clearly spoken, if you want to say I hate "A+B" you have to say "A+B" and not just "A B". ....Now, going more peotic: I can imagine one can do this with some useful, dramatic pauses, but still add the right pronoun maybe: {qo'vam.... yInvam... bIH vImuS} Actually, that's exactly what you wrote in your initial question: "this world, this life, I hate them" -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
maj ! now, lets take this a little further.. I want to say: "this world, this life make me suffer". the orthodox way of saying this, is of course through the use of {je}: {mubechmoH qo'vam yInvam je} but lets assume I don't want to use the {je}. In this case can I write: {mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e'} ? In this sentence I have two nouns each carrying the {'e'}. So obviously they cannot be forming a noun-noun construction. as we said, when it comes to nouns with the {'e'}, we don't know if the {je} is necessary in order to join them. so, assuming that indeed we could leave it aside, the only remaining question is: is the sentence {mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e'} good as is, or do I need to add a {bIH} thus writing: {mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' bIH} ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 3 Dec 2016 9:04 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 03.12.2016 um 19:37 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
suppose I want to say: "this world, this life, I hate them".
In english this may work, because the proniun shows that you hat both. In Klingon, since the pronoun does not indicate the object (in this case) it would not work, so I would immedialtly understand this as a possessive noun-noun construction.
And I would say that it's even the case when the prefix would clearly show the plural.
{qo'vam yInvam je vImuS}
{qo'vam yInvam vImuS}
I understand that perhaps at the second sentence one could get the
meaning that "I hate this life", and being left to wonder what's the story with the {qo'vam}.
I understand "I hate this life which happens on this world", so "this world-life"
so, all I want to know is "is the {je} necessary" ? is there some
grammar reason because of which it is necessary ?
Yes: clearly spoken, if you want to say I hate "A+B" you have to say "A+B" and not just "A B".
....Now, going more peotic:
I can imagine one can do this with some useful, dramatic pauses, but still add the right pronoun maybe: {qo'vam.... yInvam... bIH vImuS}
Actually, that's exactly what you wrote in your initial question: "this world, this life, I hate them"
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/3/2016 2:48 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I want to say: "this world, this life make me suffer".
the orthodox way of saying this, is of course through the use of {je}: {mubechmoH qo'vam yInvam je}
but lets assume I don't want to use the {je}. In this case can I write:
{mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e'} ?
In this sentence I have two nouns each carrying the {'e'}. So obviously they cannot be forming a noun-noun construction.
as we said, when it comes to nouns with the {'e'}, we don't know if the {je} is necessary in order to join them. so, assuming that indeed we could leave it aside, the only remaining question is:
is the sentence {mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e'} good as is, or do I need to add a {bIH} thus writing:
{mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' bIH} ?
Your Klingon is as ungrammatical as your English. "This world, this life make me suffer" is an informal shortcut. Formally, you need an "and" between them. Likewise with the Klingon. If they're to be the subject together, they need to be conjoined. *mubechmoH qo'vam yInvam je. mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' je.* *qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' [je?] mubechmoH.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
ok, I understand. however in this sentence that you wrote: {*qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' [je?] mubechmoH*} was it your intention to indeed use the {mu-}, or did you want to write something else ? the way it is written I can't understand its meaning. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 3 Dec 2016 9:55 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 12/3/2016 2:48 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I want to say: "this world, this life make me suffer".
the orthodox way of saying this, is of course through the use of {je}: {mubechmoH qo'vam yInvam je}
but lets assume I don't want to use the {je}. In this case can I write:
{mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e'} ?
In this sentence I have two nouns each carrying the {'e'}. So obviously they cannot be forming a noun-noun construction.
as we said, when it comes to nouns with the {'e'}, we don't know if the {je} is necessary in order to join them. so, assuming that indeed we could leave it aside, the only remaining question is:
is the sentence {mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e'} good as is, or do I need to add a {bIH} thus writing:
{mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' bIH} ?
Your Klingon is as ungrammatical as your English. "This world, this life make me suffer" is an informal shortcut. Formally, you need an "and" between them.
Likewise with the Klingon. If they're to be the subject together, they need to be conjoined.
*mubechmoH qo'vam yInvam je. mubechmoH qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' je.*
*qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' [je?] mubechmoH.*
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/3/2016 3:08 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
ok, I understand. however in this sentence that you wrote:
{*qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' [je?] mubechmoH*}
was it your intention to indeed use the {mu-}, or did you want to write something else ? the way it is written I can't understand its meaning.
The *mu-* is intentional. The *qo'vam'e' *and*yInvam'e'* are not objects here; they're syntactic nouns similar to *qo'vamDaq* and *yInvamvaD. *The object of this sentence is an elided *jIH.* *qo'vam'e' yInvam'e' je jIH mubechmoH bIH */as for this world and life, they make me suffer/ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (3)
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SuStel