Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery
As Lieven has mentioned previously on this mailing list, the Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery include a few new words from Maltz. These will be revealed in full at the qepHom'a' in mid-November. Until then, the only way to learn these words is to watch the show and compare the subtitles to the dialogue. Sometimes the meanings are quite clear, and at other times they require some guesswork. I personally quite like this approach; I enjoy the "hunt", and it's actually how I first envisioned learning Klingon might work, until I learned it wasn't used consistently in the various series. That being said, it is a bit unfair to our American chuDpu', who don't have access to these subtitles. So, it seems reasonable that those of us who *can* access them should use this mailing list to share our findings (with disclaimers that they include speculation). So, the question then is, how shall we go about it? Since there seems to be a consensus that we should wait for 48 ours after the US release before sharing plot details, should we have a similar guideline for words found in the subtitles? Or should we perhaps aim to share the relevant subtitles and corresponding English sentences as quickly as possible (with spoiler warnings for the relevant episode), so that everybody can join in the analysis/speculation as early on as possible? //loghaD
As no one else has replied... As someone who will never have access to the source material (the Netflix captions), I will have to rely on others to transcribe them. I'm sure there are people on this list that would love to have the captions in their notes as well. As an All Access subscriber, I'll be done watching new episodes before Netflix subscribers; so I'm not personally worried about spoilers. Add in the time it takes to transcribe an entire episode, and we should be pretty close to the 48 hour spoiler guideline. As no one has chimed in with an objection, I'd say you're safe to go ahead and start posting transcriptions. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
As Lieven has mentioned previously on this mailing list, the Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery include a few new words from Maltz. These will be revealed in full at the qepHom'a' in mid-November. Until then, the only way to learn these words is to watch the show and compare the subtitles to the dialogue. Sometimes the meanings are quite clear, and at other times they require some guesswork.
I personally quite like this approach; I enjoy the "hunt", and it's actually how I first envisioned learning Klingon might work, until I learned it wasn't used consistently in the various series.
That being said, it is a bit unfair to our American chuDpu', who don't have access to these subtitles. So, it seems reasonable that those of us who *can* access them should use this mailing list to share our findings (with disclaimers that they include speculation).
So, the question then is, how shall we go about it?
Since there seems to be a consensus that we should wait for 48 ours after the US release before sharing plot details, should we have a similar guideline for words found in the subtitles?
Or should we perhaps aim to share the relevant subtitles and corresponding English sentences as quickly as possible (with spoiler warnings for the relevant episode), so that everybody can join in the analysis/speculation as early on as possible?
//loghaD
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
-- ~Michael Roney, Jr. Freelance Translator
I completely agree with Michael. I also won’t have access to the Netflix captions -- let alone access to All Access -- but I am anxious to have them in my notes. As long as the subject line is tagged with “SPOLERS” (as well as the episode name or number to keep them straight) those who wish to avoid the discussion of each episode for a later date can do so. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons From: Michael Roney, Jr. As no one else has replied... As someone who will never have access to the source material (the Netflix captions), I will have to rely on others to transcribe them. I'm sure there are people on this list that would love to have the captions in their notes as well. As an All Access subscriber, I'll be done watching new episodes before Netflix subscribers; so I'm not personally worried about spoilers. Add in the time it takes to transcribe an entire episode, and we should be pretty close to the 48 hour spoiler guideline. As no one has chimed in with an objection, I'd say you're safe to go ahead and start posting transcriptions. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: As Lieven has mentioned previously on this mailing list, the Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery include a few new words from Maltz. These will be revealed in full at the qepHom'a' in mid-November. Until then, the only way to learn these words is to watch the show and compare the subtitles to the dialogue. Sometimes the meanings are quite clear, and at other times they require some guesswork. I personally quite like this approach; I enjoy the "hunt", and it's actually how I first envisioned learning Klingon might work, until I learned it wasn't used consistently in the various series. That being said, it is a bit unfair to our American chuDpu', who don't have access to these subtitles. So, it seems reasonable that those of us who *can* access them should use this mailing list to share our findings (with disclaimers that they include speculation). So, the question then is, how shall we go about it? Since there seems to be a consensus that we should wait for 48 ours after the US release before sharing plot details, should we have a similar guideline for words found in the subtitles? Or should we perhaps aim to share the relevant subtitles and corresponding English sentences as quickly as possible (with spoiler warnings for the relevant episode), so that everybody can join in the analysis/speculation as early on as possible? //loghaD
Sounds like a plan. I'll be very busy for the next 24 hours, but if nobody beats me to it, I'll get started on it then (assuming I don't fall asleep before then :P ). In the meantime, you can check out this document on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/notes/klingon-language-in-the-next-star-trek/new-wo... It contains (mostly speculative) translations of words found in the subtitles for episodes 1-4. Some have the subtitles they're based on listed in the comments. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 18:13 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery I completely agree with Michael. I also won't have access to the Netflix captions -- let alone access to All Access -- but I am anxious to have them in my notes. As long as the subject line is tagged with "SPOLERS" (as well as the episode name or number to keep them straight) those who wish to avoid the discussion of each episode for a later date can do so. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons From: Michael Roney, Jr. As no one else has replied... As someone who will never have access to the source material (the Netflix captions), I will have to rely on others to transcribe them. I'm sure there are people on this list that would love to have the captions in their notes as well. As an All Access subscriber, I'll be done watching new episodes before Netflix subscribers; so I'm not personally worried about spoilers. Add in the time it takes to transcribe an entire episode, and we should be pretty close to the 48 hour spoiler guideline. As no one has chimed in with an objection, I'd say you're safe to go ahead and start posting transcriptions. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: As Lieven has mentioned previously on this mailing list, the Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery include a few new words from Maltz. These will be revealed in full at the qepHom'a' in mid-November. Until then, the only way to learn these words is to watch the show and compare the subtitles to the dialogue. Sometimes the meanings are quite clear, and at other times they require some guesswork. I personally quite like this approach; I enjoy the "hunt", and it's actually how I first envisioned learning Klingon might work, until I learned it wasn't used consistently in the various series. That being said, it is a bit unfair to our American chuDpu', who don't have access to these subtitles. So, it seems reasonable that those of us who *can* access them should use this mailing list to share our findings (with disclaimers that they include speculation). So, the question then is, how shall we go about it? Since there seems to be a consensus that we should wait for 48 ours after the US release before sharing plot details, should we have a similar guideline for words found in the subtitles? Or should we perhaps aim to share the relevant subtitles and corresponding English sentences as quickly as possible (with spoiler warnings for the relevant episode), so that everybody can join in the analysis/speculation as early on as possible? //loghaD
Nice page. I've added it to my go-to pages for the show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Discovery WikiPedia's main page for the show; has abstracts of the aired episodes. (So yes, there are plot spoilers if you haven't seen the episode yet!) http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery Click on the episode names for full transcripts of the tlhIngan Hol dialogue. http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PIqaDUsedInDiscovery Self-explanatory. --Voragh From: Felix Malmenbeck In the meantime, you can check out this document on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/notes/klingon-language-in-the-next-star-trek/new-wo... It contains (mostly speculative) translations of words found in the subtitles for episodes 1-4. Some have the subtitles they're based on listed in the comments. //loghaD ________________________________ From: Steven Boozer I completely agree with Michael. I also won't have access to the Netflix captions -- let alone access to All Access -- but I am anxious to have them in my notes. As long as the subject line is tagged with "SPOLERS" (as well as the episode name or number to keep them straight) those who wish to avoid the discussion of each episode for a later date can do so. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons From: Michael Roney, Jr. As no one else has replied... As someone who will never have access to the source material (the Netflix captions), I will have to rely on others to transcribe them. I'm sure there are people on this list that would love to have the captions in their notes as well. As an All Access subscriber, I'll be done watching new episodes before Netflix subscribers; so I'm not personally worried about spoilers. Add in the time it takes to transcribe an entire episode, and we should be pretty close to the 48 hour spoiler guideline. As no one has chimed in with an objection, I'd say you're safe to go ahead and start posting transcriptions. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: As Lieven has mentioned previously on this mailing list, the Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery include a few new words from Maltz. These will be revealed in full at the qepHom'a' in mid-November. Until then, the only way to learn these words is to watch the show and compare the subtitles to the dialogue. Sometimes the meanings are quite clear, and at other times they require some guesswork. I personally quite like this approach; I enjoy the "hunt", and it's actually how I first envisioned learning Klingon might work, until I learned it wasn't used consistently in the various series. That being said, it is a bit unfair to our American chuDpu', who don't have access to these subtitles. So, it seems reasonable that those of us who *can* access them should use this mailing list to share our findings (with disclaimers that they include speculation). So, the question then is, how shall we go about it? Since there seems to be a consensus that we should wait for 48 ours after the US release before sharing plot details, should we have a similar guideline for words found in the subtitles? Or should we perhaps aim to share the relevant subtitles and corresponding English sentences as quickly as possible (with spoiler warnings for the relevant episode), so that everybody can join in the analysis/speculation as early on as possible? //loghaD
bIQongtaHvIS DuSoppu''a' targh?
HISlaH. vIrIDlu'chu'ta'pa' mu' tetlh vIgher 'e' vInID. I currently can't go looking for the exact quotes, but for the sake of getting the discussion going, here are words listed in the Facebook document, with my notes. Note that the translations are best guesses given limited information, and sometimes a seemingly obvious translation can have layers to it that don't show up in the known examples. The true definitions will be revealed at qepHom in November. Also, note that while we can expect that new words are from Okrand, the subtitles themselves were written by Lieven, and are thus non-canonical. == rIS == (verb) appears to have something to do with sending out a signal, or showing up on sensors Quote from Ep.2 ("Battle at the Binary Stars"): CONNOR: "Captain, incoming! Warp signatures detected!" {HoD, paw vay'. rIS 'op pIvghor 'e' vItu'.} In Ep.6 "Lethe", {rISwI'} is used for "transponder". Lieven has written on Twitter that this word is similar to {tlhuD}. It used to be used to transmit audio, but now is apparently also a way to transmit life signs: https://twitter.com/Klingonteacher/status/912699349754400770 (I wonder if a Error Code 404 might be explained using {rISbe' Daq DarI'bogh.}) == SanmIr == (noun) appears to mean "spore" Used several times, starting in episode 3 ("Context is for Kings"). The spore drive is called a {SanmIr QuQ}. == tlhapragh == (noun) appears to mean something like "monster" Used several times in episode 4 ("The Butcher's Knife ..."). LANDRY: "Together we can deal with Lorca's little monster." {matay'DI', Lorca tlhapraghHom wItlhay'moHlaH.} BURNHAM: "How do you know it's a monster, Commander?" {tlhapragh 'oH, qatlh 'e' DaSov, la'?} == tIw == (verb) appears to mean something like "feel emotion" In episode 1 ("The Vulcan Hello"), Sarek says "When emotions brings us ghosts from the past, only logic can root us in the present." The first part of this is translated as {matIwtaHvIS pa'logh nIyma' wIleghchugh,}. Also used in episode 4, when Stamets and Culber are talking about whether or not the frontal lobe is overrated. == SIr'o' == (noun) I'm fairly certain that this means "mycelium", in part because there's a pun (look up "mycelium" on Wikipedia and you'll find it quite quickly), and also because it works with all of the examples. However, the examples are also consistent with something like "network", "structure" or "plane"; perhaps by analogy it has come to mean both.
From episode 4 ("The Butcher's Knife ..."):
"This ships spore drive travels on a network of mycelium that's spread across the entire galaxy." {qIb naQ velbogh 'atlhqam SIr'o' leng Dujvam SanmIr QuQ.} "... when it exited from the mycelial plane." {... 'atlhqam SIr'o' mejDI'.} == loy' == (verb) Used to translate "have a personality", though it's a bit unclear what that means, exactly. Perhaps it refers to some notion of unicity or individuality, or being interesting? {loy'wI'} *might* mean "personality". When Tilly says that she more than makes up for her athletic shortcomings with her intelligence and personality, the subtitles end in {jIval 'ej jIloy'.} BURNHAM: "Personality doens't matter." {potlhbe' loy'wI'.} TILLY: "That's just something people with no personality say." {roD 'oH jatlh loy'be'bogh nuv.} TILLY: "Wait ... Which in no way means you! You absolutely have a personality!" {yIloS... SoH qaqelbe'bej. bIloy'qu' SoH.} == weS == (verb) Used when describing the loss of a ship. However, it's unclear who the subject is: If it's the one losing the ship, or the one taking it away or destroying it. Seems more likely to be the former, but it's uncertain. Used in Ep. 6 ("Lethe"): "Starfleet can't afford to lose the Discovery." {DISqa'vI'rIy weS 'e' SIQlaHbe' 'ejyo'.} == qatra' == (noun) Used in Ep. 6 ("Lethe") to refer to a "katra", the Vulcan "soul" or "essence". It seems Lieven leaves proper nouns untranscribed when he doesn't have either canon or Qov's spelling to go on, so I'm assuming this comes from Okrand. == qanQIy loS and qanQI' == In Ep. 6 ("Lethe"), there is a species called the Cancri, apparently native to Cancri IV. Cancri individuals are mentioned in Klingon dialogue, and the subtitles call then {qanQI'}. The planet Cancri IV is only mentioned in English dialogue, and it is then subtitled as {qanQIy loS}. Not sure if this disparity is intentional or due to a lapse in communication, due to the subtitles for Klingon text being taken directly from the script by Qov while the English script is by Lieven (both with Okrand's involvement, although he's probably not been privy to th e full scripts or any of the audio). Probably best to wait for clarification. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 To: tlhIngan-Hol Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery On 12 October 2017 at 18:58, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: I'll be very busy for the next 24 hours, but if nobody beats me to it, I'll get started on it then (assuming I don't fall asleep before then :P ). bIQongtaHvIS DuSoppu''a' targh? -- De'vID
On 10/25/2017 9:58 AM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:
== loy' ==
(verb) Used to translate "have a personality", though it's a bit unclear what that means, exactly. Perhaps it refers to some notion of unicity or individuality, or being interesting?
{loy'wI'} *might* mean "personality".
When Tilly says that she more than makes up for her athletic shortcomings with her intelligence and personality, the subtitles end in {jIval 'ej jIloy'.}
BURNHAM: "Personality doens't matter." {potlhbe' loy'wI'.}
TILLY: "That's just something people with no personality say." {roD 'oH jatlh loy'be'bogh nuv.}
TILLY: "Wait ... Which in no way means you! You absolutely have a personality!" {yIloS... SoH qaqelbe'bej. bIloy'qu' SoH.}
This may mean the same thing as the idiom *vaj Duj chIj*/have strength of character./
== weS ==
(verb) Used when describing the loss of a ship. However, it's unclear who the subject is: If it's the one losing the ship, or the one taking it away or destroying it. Seems more likely to be the former, but it's uncertain.
Used in Ep. 6 ("Lethe"):
"Starfleet can't afford to lose the Discovery." {DISqa'vI'rIy weS 'e' SIQlaHbe' 'ejyo'.}
English /lose/ means so many things, it's no wonder Klingons have different words for it. In this case, *weS* might be said to mean /be deprived of./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
rIS joins the set of (related?) verbs beginning with rI- : rIt summon, rI' hail, and possibly rIH energize. See the ja- set: jatlh say/speak, ja' report/tell, jaw chat, jach scream/cry out, jang answer/reply, and jat speak incoherently/mumble (slang; cf. jat tongue). --Voragh From: Felix Malmenbeck == rIS == (verb) appears to have something to do with sending out a signal, or showing up on sensors. Lieven has written on Twitter that this word is similar to {tlhuD}. It used to be used to transmit audio, but now is apparently also a way to transmit life signs: https://twitter.com/Klingonteacher/status/912699349754400770 Quote from Ep.2 ("Battle at the Binary Stars"): CONNOR: "Captain, incoming! Warp signatures detected!" {HoD, paw vay'. rIS 'op pIvghor 'e' vItu'.} In Ep.6 "Lethe", {rISwI'} is used for "transponder".
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 06:58:19 -0700, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
== SIr'o' ==
(noun) I'm fairly certain that this means "mycelium", in part because there's a pun (look up "mycelium" on Wikipedia and >you'll find it quite quickly), and also because it works with all of the examples.
However, the examples are also consistent with something like "network", "structure" or "plane"; perhaps by analogy it has >come to mean both.
From episode 4 ("The Butcher's Knife ..."):
"This ships spore drive travels on a network of mycelium that's spread across the entire galaxy."
{qIb naQ velbogh 'atlhqam SIr'o' leng Dujvam SanmIr QuQ.}
"... when it exited from the mycelial plane."
{... 'atlhqam SIr'o' mejDI'.}
Based on the text of the Wikipedia article, "shiro" and "mycelium" are synonyms (both meaning a mass of hyphae). Given that, I suspect this might be a case of Okrand telling Lieven "just transliterate the English word" rather than a pun. Thus, the whole phrase <'atlhqam SIr'o'> probably means "mycelium", with <'atlhqam> included to contextualize the transliterated English word (well, Japanese loan-word) "shiro". So it's "fungal shiro" as opposed to some other kind of shiro (for example, the Ethiopian stew I just now learned about while googling "shiro").
For those who've seen the episode... Is the "mycelial plane" similar to "fluidic space" from VOYAGER, the extra-dimensional realm of Species 8472. Sir'o' then would be a type of tlhoQ conglomeration? pat system/grid? Or even DaH array/bank (of weapons, etc.)? Possibly a type of qo' realm/world? --Voragh From: Wil Czak On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 06:58:19 -0700, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: == SIr'o' == (noun) I'm fairly certain that this means "mycelium", in part because there's a pun (look up "mycelium" on Wikipedia and you'll find it quite quickly), and also because it works with all of the examples. However, the examples are also consistent with something like "network", "structure" or "plane"; perhaps by analogy it has come to mean both.
From episode 4 ("The Butcher's Knife ..."):
"This ships spore drive travels on a network of mycelium that's spread across the entire galaxy." {qIb naQ velbogh 'atlhqam SIr'o' leng Dujvam SanmIr QuQ.} "... when it exited from the mycelial plane." {... 'atlhqam SIr'o' mejDI'.} Based on the text of the Wikipedia article, "shiro" and "mycelium" are synonyms (both meaning a mass of hyphae). Given that, I suspect this might be a case of Okrand telling Lieven "just transliterate the English word" rather than a pun. Thus, the whole phrase <'atlhqam SIr'o'> probably means "mycelium", with <'atlhqam> included to contextualize the transliterated English word (well, Japanese loan-word) "shiro". So it's "fungal shiro" as opposed to some other kind of shiro (for example, the Ethiopian stew I just now learned about while googling "shiro").
Felix wrote:
== qanQIy loS and qanQI' ==
It's a typo and should be {qanQIy}. Robyn made this transcription, and Marc Okrand has no (yet) vetted this. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/DSC106
New word found in Episode 7 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad": == woq == (verb) Appears to mean "confirm". "Computer, confirm!" {De'wI', yIwoq.} "Identity confirmed." {ghot woqlu'.} Some transcribed words; unclear who authored them: {buran} - "Buran" (name of Lorca's previous starship) {ghormaghenDer} - "gormagander" (cosmozoan lifeform) {'anISyum} - "anicium" http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Anicium {yuryum} - "yurium" http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Yurium
== weS == (verb) Used when describing the loss of a ship. However, it's unclear who the subject is: If it's the one losing the > ship, or the one taking it away or destroying it. Seems more likely to be the former, but it's uncertain. Used in Ep. 6 ("Lethe"): "Starfleet can't afford to lose the Discovery." {DISqa'vI'rIy weS 'e' SIQlaHbe' 'ejyo'.}
This week's episode gives further evidence that {weS} means something along the lines of "lose", with the subject being the one who is bereft of something something: {poH wIweSlI'.} = "We're losing time." Later: {noHmo' ghaH DaweSpu' reH 'e' DajatlhtaH ...} = "You keep talking about how you lost her because of the war ..." ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 21:03 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery Felix wrote:
== qanQIy loS and qanQI' ==
It's a typo and should be {qanQIy}. Robyn made this transcription, and Marc Okrand has no (yet) vetted this. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/DSC106 _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
With regard to {weS}, the idea may be "lose [i.e. permanently]" versus {chIl} "lose [i.e. temporarily], misplace". Which is why we refer to battle casualties in English as "losses" even when the bodies have been recovered. It's more a Trek comment than {tlhIngan Hol}, but {buran} rang a bell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_(spacecraft) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_programme ...и для тех, которые читают русский язык: http://www.buran.ru/ Felix, thanks for passing these along. --Voragh --------------------Original Message--------------- From: Felix Malmenbeck New word found in Episode 7 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad": [...] Some transcribed words; unclear who authored them: {buran} - "Buran" (name of Lorca's previous starship)
== weS == (verb) Used when describing the loss of a ship. However, it's unclear who the subject is: If it's the one losing the ship, or the one taking it away or destroying it. Seems more likely to be the former, but it's uncertain. Used in Ep. 6 ("Lethe"): "Starfleet can't afford to lose the Discovery." {DISqa'vI'rIy weS 'e' SIQlaHbe' 'ejyo'.}
This week's episode gives further evidence that {weS} means something along the lines of "lose", with the subject being the one who is bereft of something something: {poH wIweSlI'.} "We're losing time." Later: {noHmo' ghaH DaweSpu' reH 'e' DajatlhtaH ...} "You keep talking about how you lost her because of the war ..."
On Oct 30, 2017 20:50, "Felix Malmenbeck" <felixm@kth.se> wrote: {poH wIweSlI'.} Wesley! -- De'vID
Several new words in the subtitles for "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum". Four which appear to be new roots (almost certainly canonical), a couple of transcribed place/species names (may or may not be canonical) and four Klingon names (probably not canonical). == jem (verb) == Appears to mean "sense" or "perceive", and used to describe both technological sensors and humanoid senses. {yInbogh Dep jemlaHbe' Hoqra', qaH.} "It's not registered as a lifeform, sir." {Qobchugh chaH, vaj 'oH vIjemlaHbe'.} "If their intentions were nefarious, I would be the first to sense a threat." {nabmeyDaj vIjemlaw'.} "I believe I felt their intentions." {cholbogh Hegh vIjemlaH. DaH Hegh vIjem.} "[I can] sense the coming of death. I sense it coming now." {tugh DunchoHbej jemmeH laHmeylIj.} "Even your limited sensory abilities will improve eventually." {ngugh Dochmey vIjemtaHbogh vIyajchu'be'.} "I did not understand what I was perceiving." {leStaHbogh 'ej rojtaHbogh qo' yIjem.} "Try to feel the harmony and peace this world offers." {nom cholbogh tlhIngan Duj lujem nochmey. Hovtay'vam lughoS.} "Long range sensors have detected an incoming Klingon vessel. Entering the system at high warp." == SIr (verb) == Meaning unclear; it might mean something like "signify" or "characterize", or "permeate", or something completely different. I wonder if the fact that it's {rIS} backwards is significant. {yuQDaq Dat SIrbogh wabvam Qoylu'.} "The signature sound of the planet, heard everywhere on the surface." == but (verb) == Meaning unclear. My best guess is that it means something like "be natural" or "occur naturally", but I'm very uncertain. {Dat butbogh Dochmey, yInbogh qa' jemlaH vay'.} "Everywhere you go, you can feel the symbiosis between nature and the living spirit.} (I wonder if there might be a missing {je} here.) {nov yIn, nov nugh je wanI'mey but SIgh Duj beq net tuch.} "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or civilization." == pargh == Meaning unclear. Might mean "be synthetic", or "ration", or "protein", or something else. {DaHjaj Soj pargh wISopnISbe'ba', Sogh.} "There will be no synthetic protein rations tonight, Lieutenant." === Transcribed place/species terms === It's fairly likely that these are by Qov and not vetted by Okrand, so I'll write them surrounded by asterisks for now to avoid confusion. *qelpIya'ngan* - "Kelpien" (the species that Saru belongs to) *pa'vo* - "Pahvo" (planet visited in the episode) *pa'vongan* - "Pahvan" (inhabitants of this world) === Klingon names === These were probably coined by Qov and not vetted by Okrand. *gha'vIq* - "Grafk" *to'ratlh* - "Torath" *SIlreq* - "Silrek" ________________________________________ From: Felix Malmenbeck Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 20:50 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery New word found in Episode 7 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad": == woq == (verb) Appears to mean "confirm". "Computer, confirm!" {De'wI', yIwoq.} "Identity confirmed." {ghot woqlu'.} Some transcribed words; unclear who authored them: {buran} - "Buran" (name of Lorca's previous starship) {ghormaghenDer} - "gormagander" (cosmozoan lifeform) {'anISyum} - "anicium" http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Anicium {yuryum} - "yurium" http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Yurium
== weS == (verb) Used when describing the loss of a ship. However, it's unclear who the subject is: If it's the one losing the > ship, or the one taking it away or destroying it. Seems more likely to be the former, but it's uncertain. Used in Ep. 6 ("Lethe"): "Starfleet can't afford to lose the Discovery." {DISqa'vI'rIy weS 'e' SIQlaHbe' 'ejyo'.}
This week's episode gives further evidence that {weS} means something along the lines of "lose", with the subject being the one who is bereft of something something: {poH wIweSlI'.} = "We're losing time." Later: {noHmo' ghaH DaweSpu' reH 'e' DajatlhtaH ...} = "You keep talking about how you lost her because of the war ..." ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 21:03 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery Felix wrote:
== qanQIy loS and qanQI' ==
It's a typo and should be {qanQIy}. Robyn made this transcription, and Marc Okrand has no (yet) vetted this. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/DSC106 _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6 November 2017 at 16:51, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
{Qobchugh chaH, vaj 'oH vIjemlaHbe'.} "If their intentions were nefarious, I would be the first to sense a threat."
I understood this differently until I read the English translation. The Klingon says "If they are dangerous (conditioned on their being dangerous), I cannot (would not be able to) detect it." That is, they have the ability to hide their nefariousness from me. They might be very dangerous! The English really means something like: "Conditioned on their being dangerous, I would be able to detect it, but I don't." That is, they can't hide their nefariousness from me, but I don't sense it. Thus they are not dangerous. It's the opposite of what's apparently intended. {tugh DunchoHbej jemmeH laHmeylIj.}
"Even your limited sensory abilities will improve eventually."
Is this supposed to be {tagha'} instead of {tugh}? We also have {SIbI'Ha'} from Klingon Monopoly. But {tugh} seems to be the opposite of what the English says. It also seems like it would be a good place for {vabDot}, if we knew how to use it. :-)
{nov yIn, nov nugh je wanI'mey but SIgh Duj beq net tuch.} "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or civilization."
This seems like a good place to use {joq} instead of {je}. I presume that interfering with any alien life "and/or" civilisation is forbidden, not just that interfering with any alien life "and" civilisation (i.e., both at the same time) is forbidden. I like that {Duj beq} was used for "starship", avoiding the metonym which exists in English but not necessarily in Klingon. -- De'vID
Hi Felix, thanks for collecting all of this. You did so very attentively. I'd like to add some comments, but final definitions will be published as a package next week at the qepHom. Am 06.11.2017 um 16:51 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
Meaning unclear; it might mean something like "signify" or "characterize", or "permeate", or something completely different. I wonder if the fact that it's {rIS} backwards is significant.
Yes, it is indeed -- because this was just a spoonerism typo. :-/ It simply was supposed to be {rIS}.
{yuQDaq Dat SIrbogh wabvam Qoylu'.} "The signature sound of the planet, heard everywhere on the surface."
-> {yuQDaq Dat rISbogh wabvam Qoylu'.} "the crackling sound can be heard everywhere."
{Dat butbogh Dochmey, yInbogh qa' jemlaH vay'.} "Everywhere you go, you can feel the symbiosis between nature and the living spirit.} (I wonder if there might be a missing {je} here.)
Yes, obviously. HIvqa' veqlargh.
== pargh == Meaning unclear. Might mean "be synthetic", or "ration", or "protein", or something else.
"be synthetic / artifial" is the best description. It's the opposite of {but} "be natural"
=== Transcribed place/species terms === It's fairly likely that these are by Qov and not vetted by Okrand
Exactly. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/QepHomSaarbrücken
Yes, it is indeed -- because this was just a spoonerism typo. :-/ It simply was supposed to be {rIS}.
Ah, gotcha! Thanks for clearing that up; wouldn't want that to spread too far :P I noticed, by the way, that {rISwI'} was used multiple times to translate "sonar". It's previously also been used for "transponder".
"be synthetic / artifial" is the best description. It's the opposite of {but} "be natural"
Ah, excellent. I guess {patlh} is a bit like {ngeb}, but with no implied deception. I suppose Klingons might still use {ngeb} disparagingly to describe certain replicated drinks and dishes, though, as in {tlhutlhmeH HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS.} ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 09:59 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery Hi Felix, thanks for collecting all of this. You did so very attentively. I'd like to add some comments, but final definitions will be published as a package next week at the qepHom. Am 06.11.2017 um 16:51 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
Meaning unclear; it might mean something like "signify" or "characterize", or "permeate", or something completely different. I wonder if the fact that it's {rIS} backwards is significant.
Yes, it is indeed -- because this was just a spoonerism typo. :-/ It simply was supposed to be {rIS}.
{yuQDaq Dat SIrbogh wabvam Qoylu'.} "The signature sound of the planet, heard everywhere on the surface."
-> {yuQDaq Dat rISbogh wabvam Qoylu'.} "the crackling sound can be heard everywhere."
{Dat butbogh Dochmey, yInbogh qa' jemlaH vay'.} "Everywhere you go, you can feel the symbiosis between nature and the living spirit.} (I wonder if there might be a missing {je} here.)
Yes, obviously. HIvqa' veqlargh.
== pargh == Meaning unclear. Might mean "be synthetic", or "ration", or "protein", or something else.
"be synthetic / artifial" is the best description. It's the opposite of {but} "be natural"
=== Transcribed place/species terms === It's fairly likely that these are by Qov and not vetted by Okrand
Exactly. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/QepHomSaarbrücken _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 07.11.2017 um 14:02 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
I noticed, by the way, that {rISwI'} was used multiple times to translate "sonar". It's previously also been used for "transponder".
I need to look back where you mean this, but {rIS} somehow means "making a crackling sound", so it can surely be used for any kind of humming or crackling device, and also anything that is emitting something besides of sound or radioation. To detect a warp signature, you actually detect that the warpdrive is {rIS}ing. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Netflix
On Nov 7, 2017 14:56, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote: I need to look back where you mean this, but {rIS} somehow means "making a crackling sound", I think you mean "making a snapping, crackling, or popping sound". -- De'vID
I like this new word {rIS}, for two reasons. One, I like that there's an implied etymological connection between the two meanings of "making a crackling sound" and then "emitting a signal", one derived from the other. It's fun when Okrand hints at or fleshes out details of the language development. Two, that pun is atrocious, which is the best kind of pun. On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 11:05 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 7, 2017 14:56, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
I need to look back where you mean this, but {rIS} somehow means "making a crackling sound",
I think you mean "making a snapping, crackling, or popping sound".
-- De'vID
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Hi, (this is OFF-LIST.) Am 07.11.2017 um 17:11 schrieb nIqolay Q:
I like this new word {rIS}, for two reasons. [...] Two, that pun is atrocious, which is the best kind of pun.
Could you tell me what you think is the pun? I just don't see any, but that may be because I'm not a native English speaker. Thanks, Lieven.
Am 13.11.2017 um 15:13 schrieb Lieven:
Hi, (this is OFF-LIST.)
Duh! Obviously not. ghuy'cha'. nom QInwIj vIngeHba'. OFFlist 'oHbe'ba'. 'a qay'be'. pejang Hoch, Sujangqangchugh. :-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
nIqolay Q is referring to a classic American breakfast cereal, Rice Krispies. For years it's slogan has been "Snap! Crackle! Pop!" --Voragh -----Original Message----- From: Lieven Am 07.11.2017 um 17:11 schrieb nIqolay Q:
I like this new word {rIS}, for two reasons. [...] Two, that pun is atrocious, which is the best kind of pun.
Could you tell me what you think is the pun? I just don't see any, but that may be because I'm not a native English speaker. Thanks, Lieven. _______________________________________________
Depending on your dietary habits, the pun may become more immediate to you if you translate it as "Knasper" :) //loghaD
13 nov. 2017 kl. 15:13 skrev Lieven <levinius@gmx.de>:
Could you tell me what you think is the pun? I just don't see any, but that may be because I'm not a native English speaker.
Two possible new words in episode 9 (Into the Forest I Go): == ngel == (verb) Appears to mean something like "lure", "bait", "attract", "divert" or "draw (toward / away from)". Interestingly, it's {leng} backwards, which might give some hint as to its meaning. {pa'vovo' chaH DIngelmeH, 'oH wIlo'.} = "We use it as bait, to draw their flagship away from Pahvo." == tlhamchem == (noun) "gravitational field"; compare with {HoSchem}, {pIvchem}, {Surchem} and {peQ chem} {tlhoS nIb So'wI' tlhamchem, wojvam je.} = "[Something about tiny imperfections] that correlate to the cloak's gravitational field." ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 15:33 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Meta: Discussions about new words found in Netflix' Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery Depending on your dietary habits, the pun may become more immediate to you if you translate it as "Knasper" :) //loghaD
13 nov. 2017 kl. 15:13 skrev Lieven <levinius@gmx.de>:
Could you tell me what you think is the pun? I just don't see any, but that may be because I'm not a native English speaker.
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 9 October 2017 at 16:08, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
As Lieven has mentioned previously on this mailing list, the Klingon subtitles for Star Trek: Discovery include a few new words from Maltz. These will be revealed in full at the qepHom'a' in mid-November. Until then, the only way to learn these words is to watch the show and compare the subtitles to the dialogue. Sometimes the meanings are quite clear, and at other times they require some guesswork.
[...]
Since there seems to be a consensus that we should wait for 48 ours after the US release before sharing plot details, should we have a similar guideline for words found in the subtitles?
Or should we perhaps aim to share the relevant subtitles and corresponding English sentences as quickly as possible (with spoiler warnings for the relevant episode), so that everybody can join in the analysis/speculation as early on as possible?
Even though I have access to the Klingon subtitles, I've not read through them (except for the Klingon parts of the first two episodes) as I have no time. However, I've already seen "leaks" of new words on social media (Facebook, Twitter), so by all means post them here. If I'm going to know that a word exists, I might as well know how it was used or what it means. -- De'vID
participants (8)
-
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Lieven -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Wil Czak