mu' chu': 'aS 'IDnar pIn'a' Dun
Hello everyone! Earlier I uploaded a video in which I presented some new words that I received for a recent translation. I've put the glosses and some notes onto the Klingon Wiki, so be sure to check that page out! http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4 Best, DeSDu'
majQa'! One thing I like lately is how MO has been providing new verbs which seem to be related to existing nouns, giving a sense of some deeper historical etymology. ({rutlh} = "wheel" and "be round", for instance.) {QIn} "inject" might be another example, since it's homophonous with the word for "spearhead", both of which involve sticking a pointy thing into something else. Also, this seems to be acknowledgement of the word {ngIS}, which was coined for a Klingon novel but wasn't canon. {mu' chu' loScha'mey:} {DItlhon} = "dixon" in the xifan hol transcription system. In the holodeck scene of "Star Trek: First Contact", Ruby is the name of one of Dixon Hill's lady friends. {patmor} = Beryl Patmore is a character on Downton Abbey. Emerald is a variety of the mineral beryl. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jackson Bradley <j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone!
Earlier I uploaded a video in which I presented some new words that I received for a recent translation. I've put the glosses and some notes onto the Klingon Wiki, so be sure to check that page out!
http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4
Best, DeSDu' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Thank you for sharing; some interesting ones, there! Rubies and emeralds could potentially be of interest when {Doq/SuD; X rur.} to describe the color of something. It's worth noting that there is a certain span of colors that rubies and emeralds can take, though, so be mindful that a Klingon might not imagine the exact same color as we do if you say {Doq; nIb DItlhon.} or {SuD; nIb patmor.}. A while back, I asked a question on the conworlding Stack Exchange about whether or not we would expect to find well-known gemstones on other Earth-like planets, specifically because I was thinking about whether or not it would be of interest to ask about their Klingon names. There were some interesting answers: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/108397/would-earthlike-pla... It does seem likely - or at least not incredibly _un_likely* - that the cardinal gems would be found in some quantity, as their formation is quite simple. However, their abundance and categorization might differ, since the same mineral can take a range of colors (for example, rubies and sapphires are both varieties of corundum), and conversely two different may have similar features (for example, I wouldn't be able to tell ruby from red beryl). //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 16:42 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Cc: tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu': 'aS 'IDnar pIn'a' Dun majQa'! One thing I like lately is how MO has been providing new verbs which seem to be related to existing nouns, giving a sense of some deeper historical etymology. ({rutlh} = "wheel" and "be round", for instance.) {QIn} "inject" might be another example, since it's homophonous with the word for "spearhead", both of which involve sticking a pointy thing into something else. Also, this seems to be acknowledgement of the word {ngIS}, which was coined for a Klingon novel but wasn't canon. {mu' chu' loScha'mey:} {DItlhon} = "dixon" in the xifan hol transcription system. In the holodeck scene of "Star Trek: First Contact", Ruby is the name of one of Dixon Hill's lady friends. {patmor} = Beryl Patmore is a character on Downton Abbey. Emerald is a variety of the mineral beryl. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jackson Bradley <j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com<mailto:j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello everyone! Earlier I uploaded a video in which I presented some new words that I received for a recent translation. I've put the glosses and some notes onto the Klingon Wiki, so be sure to check that page out! http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4 Best, DeSDu' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Aha! I suspected a Downton Abbey pun in *patmor* but wasn't sure how it was related. We had been chatting about Downton Abbey in the string of e-mails in which he revealed *patmor*. Le lun. 20 avr. 2020, à 11 h 01, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> a écrit :
Thank you for sharing; some interesting ones, there!
Rubies and emeralds could potentially be of interest when {Doq/SuD; X rur.} to describe the color of something. It's worth noting that there is a certain span of colors that rubies and emeralds can take, though, so be mindful that a Klingon might not imagine the exact same color as we do if you say {Doq; nIb DItlhon.} or {SuD; nIb patmor.}.
A while back, I asked a question on the conworlding Stack Exchange about whether or not we would expect to find well-known gemstones on other Earth-like planets, specifically because I was thinking about whether or not it would be of interest to ask about their Klingon names. There were some interesting answers:
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/108397/would-earthlike-pla...
It does seem likely - or at least not incredibly _un_likely* - that the cardinal gems would be found in some quantity, as their formation is quite simple.
However, their abundance and categorization might differ, since the same mineral can take a range of colors (for example, rubies and sapphires are both varieties of corundum), and conversely two different may have similar features (for example, I wouldn't be able to tell ruby from red beryl).
//loghaD
------------------------------ *From:* tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> *Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2020 16:42 *To:* tlhingan-hol@kli.org *Cc:* tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org *Subject:* Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu': 'aS 'IDnar pIn'a' Dun
majQa'!
One thing I like lately is how MO has been providing new verbs which seem to be related to existing nouns, giving a sense of some deeper historical etymology. ({rutlh} = "wheel" and "be round", for instance.) {QIn} "inject" might be another example, since it's homophonous with the word for "spearhead", both of which involve sticking a pointy thing into something else.
Also, this seems to be acknowledgement of the word {ngIS}, which was coined for a Klingon novel but wasn't canon.
{mu' chu' loScha'mey:} {DItlhon} = "dixon" in the xifan hol transcription system. In the holodeck scene of "Star Trek: First Contact", Ruby is the name of one of Dixon Hill's lady friends. {patmor} = Beryl Patmore is a character on Downton Abbey. Emerald is a variety of the mineral beryl.
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jackson Bradley < j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone!
Earlier I uploaded a video in which I presented some new words that I received for a recent translation. I've put the glosses and some notes onto the Klingon Wiki, so be sure to check that page out!
http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4
Best, DeSDu' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I also neglected to include a new comment on *kiss* in my original edit to the Wiki but have since added it. I'll post it here. I had a question about *kiss* since it comes up more than a few times in the book and I know that there's lots of hesitation surrounding the use of *chop* for this: For "kiss," chop seems to have become the established translation. But, of course, to chop is to kiss Klingon-style. To make it clear that that's not what's happening in Oz, I was going to suggest *pe'vIlHa' chop*. I see you used *pe'vIlHa' chop* for when the witch kissed Dorothy "gently on the forehead," so, unless that changes, you can't use *pe'vIl chop* for "(non-Klingon) kiss" in general. Maybe *loQ chop* will work for the more general case. Or maybe just use chop and let it go at that. There's no straightforward, simple Klingon word for "(human-style) kiss." A non-standard, slangy expression for this is *'ep*. And Maltz says he thinks he once heard someone say *qab rem*, but he tried hard to picture that and didn't consider it to be good Klingon at all — not even good slang. Le lun. 20 avr. 2020, à 11 h 26, Jackson Bradley <j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> a écrit :
Aha! I suspected a Downton Abbey pun in *patmor* but wasn't sure how it was related. We had been chatting about Downton Abbey in the string of e-mails in which he revealed *patmor*.
Le lun. 20 avr. 2020, à 11 h 01, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> a écrit :
Thank you for sharing; some interesting ones, there!
Rubies and emeralds could potentially be of interest when {Doq/SuD; X rur.} to describe the color of something. It's worth noting that there is a certain span of colors that rubies and emeralds can take, though, so be mindful that a Klingon might not imagine the exact same color as we do if you say {Doq; nIb DItlhon.} or {SuD; nIb patmor.}.
A while back, I asked a question on the conworlding Stack Exchange about whether or not we would expect to find well-known gemstones on other Earth-like planets, specifically because I was thinking about whether or not it would be of interest to ask about their Klingon names. There were some interesting answers:
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/108397/would-earthlike-pla...
It does seem likely - or at least not incredibly _un_likely* - that the cardinal gems would be found in some quantity, as their formation is quite simple.
However, their abundance and categorization might differ, since the same mineral can take a range of colors (for example, rubies and sapphires are both varieties of corundum), and conversely two different may have similar features (for example, I wouldn't be able to tell ruby from red beryl).
//loghaD
------------------------------ *From:* tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> *Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2020 16:42 *To:* tlhingan-hol@kli.org *Cc:* tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org *Subject:* Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu': 'aS 'IDnar pIn'a' Dun
majQa'!
One thing I like lately is how MO has been providing new verbs which seem to be related to existing nouns, giving a sense of some deeper historical etymology. ({rutlh} = "wheel" and "be round", for instance.) {QIn} "inject" might be another example, since it's homophonous with the word for "spearhead", both of which involve sticking a pointy thing into something else.
Also, this seems to be acknowledgement of the word {ngIS}, which was coined for a Klingon novel but wasn't canon.
{mu' chu' loScha'mey:} {DItlhon} = "dixon" in the xifan hol transcription system. In the holodeck scene of "Star Trek: First Contact", Ruby is the name of one of Dixon Hill's lady friends. {patmor} = Beryl Patmore is a character on Downton Abbey. Emerald is a variety of the mineral beryl.
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jackson Bradley < j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone!
Earlier I uploaded a video in which I presented some new words that I received for a recent translation. I've put the glosses and some notes onto the Klingon Wiki, so be sure to check that page out!
http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4
Best, DeSDu' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
To make it clear that that's not what's
happening in Oz, I was going to suggest
pe'vIlHa' chop. I see you used pe'vIlHa'
chop for when the witch kissed Dorothy
"gently on the forehead,"
(and)
Maybe loQ chop will work for the more
general case. Or maybe just use chop and
let it go at that.
If I understand this correctly, {pe'vIlHa' chop} is to be used for a "gentle kiss", and {loQ chop} as well as {chop} are interchangeable for "kissing in general". ~ mayqel qunen'oS
I just noticed.. What's the {'aS} in the title of this thread ? I didn't see this word included in the new words list at the wiki. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
Am 20.04.2020 um 18:38 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
What's the {'aS} in the title of this thread ? I didn't see this word included in the new words list at the wiki.
The wizard of "OZ". Since there was no note one that, I guess it's a non canon transcription. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz
Marc suggested *'aS* over *'oS* (my original choice.) Not sure if that's canon since he said it's just his opinion and not Maltz's but here are his original words for you to decide: *(And maybe it should be 'aS instead of 'oS, based on pronunciation. Maltz never heard of the place, so he had no opinion.)* Le lun. 20 avr. 2020, à 12 h 53, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> a écrit :
Am 20.04.2020 um 18:38 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
What's the {'aS} in the title of this thread ? I didn't see this word included in the new words list at the wiki.
The wizard of "OZ". Since there was no note one that, I guess it's a non canon transcription.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I’m totally with Okrand on {‘aS} being preferable to {‘oS} to transliterate “Oz”, in terms of vowel sound, but I wonder about transliteration of the English “Z” into Klingon. Logically, we can deduce that {S} is the closest sound in Klingon to the English “Z", but I wonder if the vocalization of the “Z” would bother them enough that they’d simulate it with some vocalized sound next to it, like {‘aghSe’}. That actually sounds closer to “Oz” to my ear than {‘aS}. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 20, 2020, at 1:08 PM, Jackson Bradley <j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> wrote:
Marc suggested *'aS* over *'oS* (my original choice.) Not sure if that's canon since he said it's just his opinion and not Maltz's but here are his original words for you to decide:
(And maybe it should be 'aS instead of 'oS, based on pronunciation. Maltz never heard of the place, so he had no opinion.)
Le lun. 20 avr. 2020, à 12 h 53, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de <mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> a écrit : Am 20.04.2020 um 18:38 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
What's the {'aS} in the title of this thread ? I didn't see this word included in the new words list at the wiki.
The wizard of "OZ". Since there was no note one that, I guess it's a non canon transcription.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com <http://www.tlhinganhol.com/> http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz <http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz> _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org> _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
jIH:
If I understand this correctly, {pe'vIlHa' chop} is to be used for a "gentle kiss", and {loQ chop} as well as {chop} are interchangeable for "kissing in general".
However, I do wonder, whether as time passes, people won't start using the {loQ chop} for an "innocent" kiss (as in "she kissed her friend as she wished her happy birthday"), and {chop} for the "classic" kiss between lovers. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 16:42, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, this seems to be acknowledgement of the word {ngIS}, which was coined for a Klingon novel but wasn't canon.
Okrand wrote:
{ngIS} might work for the Tin Woodman's oil, though it is a particular kind of lubricant use for disruptor cannons I am told. A more general word is {watrIn}.
This is very funny, as I am fairly certain he just looked up "lubricant" on {boQwI'} and found the entry on {ngIS}. -- De'vID
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 4:17 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
This is very funny, as I am fairly certain he just looked up "lubricant" on {boQwI'} and found the entry on {ngIS}
The entry for {ngIS} was pretty clear about the word not being canon. It's got the "not known to have been approved by Marc Okrand" warning, and then also the header is written {?ngIS} and grayed out in the style of other non-canon words. He must have found that entry and figured he'd just roll with it.
nISwI’ ngISwIj Not something easily said five times fast. Not for ME, anyway. I’m sure there are plenty of people here who don’t consider it difficult. For your amusement, because, what else were you intending to do for the next few minutes anyway, right? A dialog: nISwI’ ngISwIj yIqem! nISwI’ ngISlIj? HIja’! Qo’! qatlh? ‘IH SutwIj. Say’. nIj nISwI’ ngISlIj. nIjlI’’a' nISwI’ ngISwIj? HIja’! chaq loQ Qoy’ neH ‘ej ngaStaH nISwI’ ngISwIj ngaSwI’. ghobe’! ghurlI’ nISwI’ ngISlIj yughbogh ngengHom’e’. ngengHomqoqvamDaq QIt lItchlaw’ nISwI’ ngISlIj ngaSwI’. ngIS Hutlhmo’ vumbe' ngISwI’ talwIj, ‘ach vumchu’ SoHDaq Qeqbogh nISwI’ HIchwIj. vaj qara’qa’. nISwI’ nISwIj yIqem! HIja’ qaH. SIbI’ qatoy’! charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 22, 2020, at 4:36 PM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 4:17 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote: This is very funny, as I am fairly certain he just looked up "lubricant" on {boQwI'} and found the entry on {ngIS}
The entry for {ngIS} was pretty clear about the word not being canon. It's got the "not known to have been approved by Marc Okrand" warning, and then also the header is written {?ngIS} and grayed out in the style of other non-canon words. He must have found that entry and figured he'd just roll with it. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
If {chop} is to be used for humans kissing, then how will we say that a human has a "biting fetish" ??? The "fetish" I know how to say; it's the "biting" that's the problem. ~ m.q.
chopmeH Ho'Du' lo' parmaqqayDaj 'e' tIvqu'. ~ "The person really enjoys being bitten by their lover." parmaqqayDaj chopmeH Ho'Du' lo' 'e' tIvqu'. ~ "The person really enjoys biting their lover." chopchuqmeH Ho'Du' lo' 'e' lutIvqu' parmaqqaypu'. ~ "The lovers really enjoy biting each other." I've previously used {pe'vIlHa' chopmeH wuSDu' lo'} to describe kissing somebody. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 15:38 To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu': 'aS 'IDnar pIn'a' Dun If {chop} is to be used for humans kissing, then how will we say that a human has a "biting fetish" ??? The "fetish" I know how to say; it's the "biting" that's the problem. ~ m.q.
Am 23.04.2020 um 15:38 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
If {chop} is to be used for humans kissing, then how will we say that a human has a "biting fetish" ???
The "fetish" I know how to say; it's the "biting" that's the problem.
I think that biting still is part of the word, it does not literally mean "kiss". Okrand wrote "There's no straightforward, simple Klingon word for "(human-style) kiss." and : "A non-standard, slangy expression for this is 'ep. " So I see the best way to talk about humang kissing is 'ep. I think if you wish to put some emphasis on the enjoyment of "biting", you could say {chopchu'} which fortifies the idea of chop, instead of just {loQ chop}, which okrand suggested for kissing his first phrase. But if we stay in the game, it's really hard for a Klingon to talk bout such a fetish because he might say "That terran enjoys to {chop}? What's the deal? Don't we all enjoy that?" ;-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/-ep
*sigh* I know we've had this conversation before. There is on screen evidence that Klingons kiss. And as someone who was translating a text that needed to clearly distinguish between kissing and biting, the lack of a verb "to kiss" has been rather frustrating. I'd prefer multiple verbs, To kiss romantically / sexually To kiss as friends To kiss family But I'll settle for one, standard (not slang) verb. ~Melanie Roney Sent from my Palm Prē
melanie roney:
I'd prefer multiple verbs,
To kiss romantically / sexually
To kiss as friends
To kiss family
Me too.. In times like these, the iphone/android analogy comes to mind. Klingon resembles an iphone, which may be beautiful as a device, it may have an excellent operating system, it may be able to kick ass in so many different ways.. But it's unable to do some simple things, which the cheapest android device can do in an instant. You can say a billion things in klingon, and with the exception of texts requiring specialized terminology, one can say virtually anything. But there are times, when to express the simplest of things, you have to jump through so many hoops. And with regards to "kissing" I wonder.. Would the choice of {chop} be the choice of okrand, even if DeSDu' hadn't used the {pe'vIl chop} in his translation ? Could it be, that if DeSDu' hadn't used the {pe'vIlHa' chop}, now we'd have a more useful way to express kissing ? I guess we'll never know.. ~ m.q.
On 4/19/2020 6:46 PM, Jackson Bradley wrote:
Hello everyone!
Earlier I uploaded a video in which I presented some new words that I received for a recent translation. I've put the glosses and some notes onto the Klingon Wiki, so be sure to check that page out!
http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4\ <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4>
It's always helpful to include the actual list of new words in the announcement of new words, so that those of us who keep email archives have an easier way to search them. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
DItlhon n. ruby lanSoy n. row or line (of people or things expected to be in motion) lut rorgh n. fairy tale ngIS n. type of lubricant (confirmed) patmor n. emerald QIn v. inject qenSaS n. Kansas puq lut n. fairy tale puq lut rorgh n. fairy tale watrIn n. lubricant weSjech ba'Suq Duj n. hot air balloon wIjwI' ngeb n. scarecrow wIyqap n. row or line (of people or thing not expected to be in motion) 'aS n. Oz (transliteration of a character's name) 'ep n. human-style kiss (slang) Le mar. 21 avr. 2020, à 09 h 10, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> a écrit :
On 4/19/2020 6:46 PM, Jackson Bradley wrote:
Hello everyone!
Earlier I uploaded a video in which I presented some new words that I received for a recent translation. I've put the glosses and some notes onto the Klingon Wiki, so be sure to check that page out!
http://klingon.wiki/En/TheWonderfulWizardOfOz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4\ <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8eizUIy3b4>
It's always helpful to include the actual list of new words in the announcement of new words, so that those of us who keep email archives have an easier way to search them.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
It was a term required for Baum's introduction to the book. Le jeu. 23 avr. 2020, à 14 h 21, Melanie Roney <nahqun@gmail.com> a écrit :
puq lut n. fairy tale puq lut rorgh n. fairy tale
For what it's worth, The Wizard of Oz isn't a fairy tale, it's a wonder tale.
~Melanie Roney Sent from my Palm Prē _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/23/2020 2:20 PM, Melanie Roney wrote:
puq lut n. fairy tale puq lut rorgh n. fairy tale
For what it's worth, The Wizard of Oz isn't a fairy tale, it's a wonder tale.
Human enters a magical realm and encounters its fantastic denizens? The very essence of a fairy tale. (The definition of /fairy tale/ is not a tale about fairies.) /Fairy tale/ and /wonder tale/ are synonymous. See especially J.R.R. Tolkien's essay /On Fairy Stories./ He would object to calling fairy tales /child-stories/ the way Klingon does. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 23.04.2020 um 20:29 schrieb SuStel:
puq lut n. fairy tale puq lut rorgh n. fairy tale [...] See especially J.R.R. Tolkien's essay /On Fairy Stories./ He would object to calling fairy tales /child-stories/ the way Klingon does.
Oh, yes - that is true. And I think there is no reason to see this as a set phrase. Note that Okrand gave all these as "I'd probably go with A or B or C." so it looks like you can - or even have to - choose depending on context. In addition, {lut rorgh} indicates nothing about children, so also not a fairy tale in the sense of "children bedtimes tory". Basically a {lut rorgh} can be any kind of story. One might even say that Okrand didn't give us a word for "fairy tale", only a suggestion to describe the idea. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/PukLut
On 4/23/2020 3:24 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 23.04.2020 um 20:29 schrieb SuStel:
puq lut n. fairy tale puq lut rorgh n. fairy tale [...] See especially J.R.R. Tolkien's essay /On Fairy Stories./ He would object to calling fairy tales /child-stories/ the way Klingon does.
Oh, yes - that is true. And I think there is no reason to see this as a set phrase. Note that Okrand gave all these as "I'd probably go with A or B or C." so it looks like you can - or even have to - choose depending on context.
In addition, {lut rorgh} indicates nothing about children, so also not a fairy tale in the sense of "children bedtimes tory". Basically a {lut rorgh} can be any kind of story.
One might even say that Okrand didn't give us a word for "fairy tale", only a suggestion to describe the idea.
But they will be listed on everyone's word lists, including our old friend boQwI', as /the/ translations for /fairy tale,/ not just convenient descriptions Okrand tried out. Okrand did not give us just *lut rorgh.* Both of his translations involve *puq.* A child making up a story about how a strange man entered the kitchen and ate all the cookies is a *lut rorgh* — even a *puq lut rorgh* — but not a fairy tale. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 23.04.2020 um 22:30 schrieb SuStel:
But they will be listed on everyone's word lists,
As are many other noun phrases that cannot be taken as one word.
friend boQwI', as /the/ translations for /fairy tale,/ not just convenient descriptions Okrand tried out.
I have added a note into my word list saying that it is not a definite set phrase for fairay tale.
Okrand did not give us just *lut rorgh.* Both of his translations involve *puq.*
Both of three. He also gave us {lut rogh}. Analysing his text (quoted in between) he first told us to not translate "fairy tale" literally, do not use {SIqnaSwaq}. <<<I wouldn't use SIqnaSwaq lut for "fairy tale," however.>>> Then, I think that Okrand had "fairy tale" in his mind, whch usually reminds of children stories, so he suggested <<<For that, I'd probably go with puq lut>>> and he immediately noticed that it is no necessarily for children, so he added <<<or lut rorgh>>> and then a combination of both <<<or puq lut rorgh.>>>
A child making up a story about how a strange man entered the kitchen and ate all the cookies is a *lut rorgh* — even a *puq lut rorgh* — but not a fairy tale.
Yes, of course. Inside the story, maybe Klingons don't have fairy tales, or they consider fairy tales made for children only. (like some poeple say "Don't watch Star Trek, that's a children TV show") Going back to the words, I would say that {lut} had included "fairy tales" all the time. In their core, they are all stories. And in this case, where we speak of stories in the kind of "Snowwhite" and unicorns and the brothers Grimm, those are children stories, {puq lut} logically. And then we realise that there are indeed unicorn stories that are not made for children, so they are just {lut}. And to differentiate them from a story that really happened, add {rorgh} to make it a fantasy story, a fictive story. Also keep in mind the way the questions went: DeSDu' asked for "fairy tale", MO gave him {puq lut}. If asked the other way, the answer would have been, no, it IS different. A story for children. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/WonderfulWizardOfOz
On Thu, 2020-04-23 at 14:20 -0400, Melanie Roney wrote:
puq lut n. fairy tale puq lut rorgh n. fairy tale
For what it's worth, The Wizard of Oz isn't a fairy tale, it's a wonder tale.
~Melanie Roney
I thought it was a documentary. (Like how the Thermians thought Gilligan's Island was a documentary.) - DloraH
On 4/23/2020 5:12 PM, DloraH wrote:
On Thu, 2020-04-23 at 14:20 -0400, Melanie Roney wrote:
For what it's worth, The Wizard of Oz isn't a fairy tale, it's a wonder tale. I thought it was a documentary.
(Like how the Thermians thought Gilligan's Island was a documentary.)
ghotpu'vetlh Do'Ha'! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Baum calls it a "wonder tale" in the introduction, which is the only reason I brought it up. I actually started translating this back in 2012, but as DeSDu' has completed it, I guess I'll move on to something else... -- ~Melanie Roney Freelance Translator
Am 23.04.2020 um 21:13 schrieb Melanie Roney:> I actually started translating this back in 2012, but as DeSDu' has
completed it, I guess I'll move on to something else...
Since such projects can sometimes take some time, and people may be doing double work without knwing about others, it might be good to announce them on the page in the Wiki. With that, people can either cooperate or at least communicate with others, so that any halfway finished work isn't lost. http://klingon.wiki/En/Translations -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com
participants (10)
-
De'vID -
DloraH -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Jackson Bradley -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Melanie Roney -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel -
Will Martin