comma between nouns joined by je
Suppose we write: {vutwI' Duj nISwI' 'obe' je}. To avoid misunderstandings, it would be a good idea to place a comma as such: {vutwI' Duj, nISwI' 'obe' je}. So far so good; but now I wonder.. If we had a simple construction as {tlhInganpu' Humanpu' je}, would it be wrong to write {tlhInganpu', Humanpu' je} ? Is there a rule or reason which prohibits the placement of a comma between two "simple" nouns joined by {je} ? Now, perhaps someone wonders "why would I want to do that?" For reasons of consistency. If I'm placing a comma between two compound nouns, then why not place a comma between two "simple" nouns too ? ~ mayqel qunen'oS
Basically, we have no rules on punctuation at all. The best suggestion is to follow your instincts (no Klingon reference intended). The rules for using commas is different in different languages. Even in English, people argue if it is needed to add an additional comma after the last item ("A, B, and C" or "A, B and C"). Adding commas to separate noun-noun constructions definitely is a good idea, although not a rule. I would not add a comma if it's just {A B je}. There is no rule, but still the question of why add one there? I see no need. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Punctuation
Is there a rule or reason which prohibits the placement of a comma between two "simple" nouns joined by {je} ?
In general, the are no hard and fast rules about Klingon pronunciation in general, nor is it known to what extent the punctuation used in romanized canon corresponds to punctuation in pIqaD. Romanized Klingon is described as a transcription system, rather than a transliteration system, as indigenous writing systems were "not yet well understood" at the time that The Klingon Dictionary was authored. Marc himself has generally not used a lot of commas to separate items in lists joined by {je}; I believe there are examples in canon, but I can't find any. As a matter of taste, I tend to avoid using commas unless necessary for clarity, because they have a very "English:y" feel to them. That isn't necessarily a problem, as it is a transcription, but in general I want to distance myself from Earth languages as much as possible when writing. I do use them sometimes when I have a list that includes compound nouns or noun phrases, and/or when I'm composing something that's directed towards beginners. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 14:21 To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] comma between nouns joined by je Suppose we write: {vutwI' Duj nISwI' 'obe' je}. To avoid misunderstandings, it would be a good idea to place a comma as such: {vutwI' Duj, nISwI' 'obe' je}. So far so good; but now I wonder.. If we had a simple construction as {tlhInganpu' Humanpu' je}, would it be wrong to write {tlhInganpu', Humanpu' je} ? Is there a rule or reason which prohibits the placement of a comma between two "simple" nouns joined by {je} ? Now, perhaps someone wonders "why would I want to do that?" For reasons of consistency. If I'm placing a comma between two compound nouns, then why not place a comma between two "simple" nouns too ? ~ mayqel qunen'oS
lieven:
I would not add a comma if it's just {A B
je}. There is no rule, but still the question
of why add one there? I see no need.
Indeed, there's no need. But I think it's better if someone sticks to one writing style throughout. If we're placing commas between compound nouns joined by {je}/{joq}/{ghap}, then why not act the same when just two nouns are concerned ? I'm not saying that we *should*; I'm wondering whether it is possible. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On 4/21/2020 9:39 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
lieven:
I would not add a comma if it's just {A B
je}. There is no rule, but still the question
of why add one there? I see no need.
Indeed, there's no need. But I think it's better if someone sticks to one writing style throughout. If we're placing commas between compound nouns joined by {je}/{joq}/{ghap}, then why not act the same when just two nouns are concerned ?
I'm not saying that we *should*; I'm wondering whether it is possible.
Punctuation is largely a prescriptivist activity. You don't speak punctuation (unless you're Victor Borge), and most punctuation tends to be governed by whatever style guide you are using. There are some near-universals (e.g., put spaces between separate words — although even this isn't an absolute, as some style guides have you put hyphens between genitively-related nouns and some don't), but there is a lot of variation. There is no universal style guide for Klingon. So far as I know, not even a major Klingon writing project has developed an extensive style guide. There is no authority with the right to tell you how to punctuate. So do whatever you think best. I tend to waffle between minimalist punctuation and mimicking English punctuation. For instance, TKD has the non-punctuated sentences *bIjatlhHa'chugh qaHoH* and *qaHoH bIjatlhHa'chugh.* My English-punctuating brain wants to apply the rule that you separate a dependent clause from the main clause with a comma if the dependent clause precedes the main clause, but not if the dependent clause follows the main clause. *bIjatlhHa'chugh, qaHoH* but *qaHoH bIjatlhHa'chugh.* But my internal Klingon style guide tells me that that rule applies to English, where it's easy to tell where a dependent clause starts if it follows the main clause (the moment you see the /if,/ you know it's a dependent clause), but that the same logic doesn't apply to the Klingon grammar, in which the dependent-clause marker *-chugh* can be embedded between the verb and its subject and doesn't delineate the start or end of the clause. So I have to decide: how much am I going to punctuate? how consistent do I have to be? There are no authoritative answers here. In your case, you tend to heavily punctuate, partly because you like to throw in a lot of dependent clauses in places the grammar doesn't address, and partly I think out of too much caution. I recommend you try to reduce punctuation where possible, and be less concerned with following any kind of formula or rule that tells you where to put it without regard to its purpose. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
loghaD:
As a matter of taste, I tend to avoid using commas unless necessary for clarity, because they have a very "English:y" feel to them
In-game thinking dictates that we believe, that the way klingon is to be written is unknown.. And this is reasonable, since it'd be rather ridiculous to admit that in its' homeworld, an alien language is normally written in the characters of a terran one. It'd be equivalent to saying that ancient egyptian is to be written in old norse runes.. However, the problem remains that we *need* to punctuate, since a passage lacking adequate punctuation resembles a road lacking surface markings; One *could* drive in such a road, but depending on the road, the lack of surface markings could be anywhere between insignificant to fatal. Of course, noone died because he read an inadequately punctuated text, but you get my point.. And there's another angle to this matter.. Would you take seriously a country which uses different surface markings on each one of its' highways, depending on how the contractor who created them, happened to be *feeling* the day each road was being constructed ? The same goes for klingon texts.. A klingon text has to follow consistent punctuation rules throughout. If it doesn't, then one thing it shows for sure, is that the author isn't serious about his work. Of course now, someone will ask, "and what do these punctuation rules need to be ?" I don't know. This is something for each one to decide. But personally, I'd take into *very* serious consideration fse punctuation rules (i.e the ones which can apply in klingon), since these rules have been developed over decades if not centuries, and I wouldn't expect anyone of us to be able to think of anything better. But regardless how someone will decide, the need remains that in order to be taken seriously, he needs to be consistent in his punctuation throughout. It would be ridiculous to read a text, where some adverbs are followed by a comma, and some aren't. Or to see a text where some dependent clauses at the beginning of the sentence are followed by a comma and some aren't. Every fse writing style guide I've read, says with regards to punctuation which even in fse there's no set rule, "pick a style and stick with it", and I believe one should act similarly in klingon. At least it shows to the reader, that the author had the decency to sit his ass on a chair, think the matter of punctuation seriously, and reach to some decisions. And this would be preferable than throwing commas, semicolons, parentheses, etc, in random. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On Thursday, 23 April 2020 09:20:22 BST mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
However, the problem remains that we *need* to punctuate, since a passage lacking adequate punctuation resembles a road lacking surface markings; One *could* drive in such a road, but depending on the road, the lack of surface markings could be anywhere between insignificant to fatal. Of course, noone died because he read an inadequately punctuated text, but you get my point..
Do we have an equivalent of the old "Let's eat, Grandma!" vs. "Let's eat Grandma!" ?
Am 24.04.2020 um 00:35 schrieb Jeremy Silver:
Do we have an equivalent of the old "Let's eat, Grandma!" vs. "Let's eat Grandma!" ?
Of course, just take it literally: Ha', SoSnI', yISop! Ha', SoSnI' yISop! -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Punctuation
participants (6)
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Felix Malmenbeck -
Jeremy Silver -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel