additional new word: tanje'rIn
I'm not sure it was mentioned here, so sorry for double message. In a Facebook post of November 16, Robyn Stewart told the story how Okrand revealed the word for "tangerine", an orange like fruit. DaHjaj po tera' na'ran vISoplI' 'ach wIb 'oH. jIjatlh, wIbmo' tera' na'ranvam, tera' na'ran wIb 'oHlaw' 'ach tera' na'ran wIb 'oHbe'. raSmajDaq paw marq 'oqranD 'ej tera' na'ran SopchoH ghaH. ghaHvaD jIjatlh, wIb tera' na'ran vISoppu'bogh. wIb'a' na'ranlIj? jatlh marq, tera' na'ran 'oHbe'. tanje'rIn 'oH. (qaStaHvIS tup {na'ranHom} qel 'ach mu' {tanje'rIn} wIv). (TFW when Klingons use a more precise vocabulary set for Earth fruits than I, a native-born Terran, do.) SKI: new Klingon word: tanje'rIn - the Earth fruit that Qov calls an orange, but the kind that peels easily and breaks into segments without getting juice on your fingers. (Facebook Post of Nov 16, 2019) This message is now also stored in the Word part of the Wiki, as will the other information as well soon: http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"
Oh, by the way, Am 18.11.2019 um 07:56 schrieb Lieven L. Litaer:> SKI: new Klingon word: tanje'rIn - the Earth fruit that Qov calls
an orange, but the kind that peels easily and breaks into segments without getting juice on your fingers.
I just read that in English, this word "tangerine" is also used for a similar fruit that in German is called Mandarine or even Clementine (which I know they were eating) so if the question arises, I'm sure that's te word now to use for those. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On 11/18/2019 1:59 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 18.11.2019 um 07:56 schrieb Lieven L. Litaer:> SKI: new Klingon word: tanje'rIn - the Earth fruit that Qov calls
an orange, but the kind that peels easily and breaks into segments without getting juice on your fingers.
I just read that in English, this word "tangerine" is also used for a similar fruit that in German is called Mandarine or even Clementine (which I know they were eating) so if the question arises, I'm sure that's te word now to use for those.
Tangerines and clementines are different varieties of mandarin orange. They are not synonyms, though many people don't know or care about the difference. http://www.homefamily.net/2011/08/17/what-is-the-difference-between-clementi... -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 18.11.2019 um 15:21 schrieb SuStel:> Tangerines and clementines are different varieties of mandarin orange.
They are not synonyms, though many people don't know or care about the difference.
That's what I meant with "is also used". I don't know if Okrand mixed them up like many people do, or if those fruits they were eating really were true tangerines or not. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn
I expect that even by the 24th century, the number of Klingons who are familiar with Terran fruits is small enough that there isn't a strong convention on the differentiation. That being said, there is probably a tera' Soj qatru' out there who's likely to go "Uhm, actually, it's not a tanje'rIn; it's a *clementine*. It's a completely different species, and I can tell by how Doq and beqpuj rur it is." … or, rather, I'm sure there *was* such a person out there, until they got their head lopped off by a Klingon who just wanted to grab a light snack. //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 3:42:51 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] additional new word: tanje'rIn Am 18.11.2019 um 15:21 schrieb SuStel:> Tangerines and clementines are different varieties of mandarin orange.
They are not synonyms, though many people don't know or care about the difference.
That's what I meant with "is also used". I don't know if Okrand mixed them up like many people do, or if those fruits they were eating really were true tangerines or not. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
To be clear: did he say *tanje'rIn* or *tanje'rIn naH*? Le lun. 18 nov. 2019, à 12 h 12, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> a écrit :
I expect that even by the 24th century, the number of Klingons who are familiar with Terran fruits is small enough that there isn't a strong convention on the differentiation.
That being said, there is probably a tera' Soj qatru' out there who's likely to go "Uhm, actually, it's not a tanje'rIn; it's a *clementine*. It's a completely different species, and I can tell by how Doq and beqpuj rur it is."
… or, rather, I'm sure there *was* such a person out there, until they got their head lopped off by a Klingon who just wanted to grab a light snack.
//loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 3:42:51 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] additional new word: tanje'rIn
Am 18.11.2019 um 15:21 schrieb SuStel:> Tangerines and clementines are different varieties of mandarin orange.
They are not synonyms, though many people don't know or care about the difference.
That's what I meant with "is also used". I don't know if Okrand mixed them up like many people do, or if those fruits they were eating really were true tangerines or not.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
chaq mo’rISqa’ngan ghaH vaj {tanje’rIn na} jatlh? Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 18, 2019, at 13:21, Jackson Bradley <j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> wrote:
To be clear: did he say tanje'rIn or tanje'rIn naH?
Le lun. 18 nov. 2019, à 12 h 12, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> a écrit : I expect that even by the 24th century, the number of Klingons who are familiar with Terran fruits is small enough that there isn't a strong convention on the differentiation.
That being said, there is probably a tera' Soj qatru' out there who's likely to go "Uhm, actually, it's not a tanje'rIn; it's a *clementine*. It's a completely different species, and I can tell by how Doq and beqpuj rur it is."
… or, rather, I'm sure there *was* such a person out there, until they got their head lopped off by a Klingon who just wanted to grab a light snack.
//loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 3:42:51 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] additional new word: tanje'rIn
Am 18.11.2019 um 15:21 schrieb SuStel:> Tangerines and clementines are different varieties of mandarin orange.
They are not synonyms, though many people don't know or care about the difference.
That's what I meant with "is also used". I don't know if Okrand mixed them up like many people do, or if those fruits they were eating really were true tangerines or not.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 18.11.2019 um 19:21 schrieb Jackson Bradley:
To be clear: did he say /tanje'rIn/ or /tanje'rIn naH/?
According to Qov's story, he said {tanje'rIn}. But I would not put too much weight on that. It's very likely that he simply forgot that all fruits have the {naH} complement, and on the other hand, I have noticed that many people cheat in those cases saying {'epIl vISop} and everyone understands. http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn I mean, what would be the difference between {tanje'rIn} and {tanje'rIn naH}? Just my opinion, of course. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
True, but my understanding was that, since it's a word of foreign origin and presumably one only recently borrowed into the language, it requires the *naH* to let everyone know that it's a fruit/vegetable we're talking about. Le lun. 18 nov. 2019, à 12 h 32, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> a écrit :
Am 18.11.2019 um 19:21 schrieb Jackson Bradley:
To be clear: did he say /tanje'rIn/ or /tanje'rIn naH/?
According to Qov's story, he said {tanje'rIn}.
But I would not put too much weight on that. It's very likely that he simply forgot that all fruits have the {naH} complement, and on the other hand, I have noticed that many people cheat in those cases saying {'epIl vISop} and everyone understands.
http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn
I mean, what would be the difference between {tanje'rIn} and {tanje'rIn naH}? Just my opinion, of course.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I think that Jackson is right. AFAIK all the items tagged with {naH} or {naHmey} are Terran: banan naH banana mengho' naH mango pIlam naH plum ghIrep naHmey grapes per naHmey pears raSber naHmey raspberries Sutra'ber naHmey strawberries tomat naHmey tomatoes 'epIl naHmey apples I couldn’t find any native Klingon fruit or vegetables tagged with {naH}. And why would they be? Every Klingon knows what a {peb’ot} or a {Hurgh} is! But what in the world is a {‘epIl} or a {banan}? A few alien fruit, vegetables, plants or animals are preceded by the planet name however : tera’ bIQ lung’a’ alligator, crocodile tera’ cheS rabbit tera' la'SIv turtle tera’ lIr owl tera' nagh DIr charwI’ snail, slug tera' na'ran orange tera' na'ran'a' grapefruit tera' na'ran wIb lemon tera' peb'ot cucumber tera' yav 'atlhqam mushrooms tera’ ‘arDeH ivy Note that none of these are also tagged with {naH} since everyone knows what they are as there are probably Klingon versions of all these. A {tera’ na’ran’a’} is that big na’ran-looking thing from Earth, while a {tera' na'ran wIb} is that sour-tasting na’ran-like fruit. (Everyone knows that a proper {na’ran} is sweet!) -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of Jackson Bradley True, but my understanding was that, since it's a word of foreign origin and presumably one only recently borrowed into the language, it requires the *naH* to let everyone know that it's a fruit/vegetable we're talking about. Le lun. 18 nov. 2019, à 12 h 32, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> a écrit : Am 18.11.2019 um 19:21 schrieb Jackson Bradley:
To be clear: did he say /tanje'rIn/ or /tanje'rIn naH/?
According to Qov's story, he said {tanje'rIn}. But I would not put too much weight on that. It's very likely that he simply forgot that all fruits have the {naH} complement, and on the other hand, I have noticed that many people cheat in those cases saying {'epIl vISop} and everyone understands. http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn I mean, what would be the difference between {tanje'rIn} and {tanje'rIn naH}? Just my opinion, of course.
On 11/18/2019 4:30 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
I think that Jackson is right. AFAIK all the items tagged with {naH} or {naHmey} are Terran:
I couldn’t find any native Klingon fruit or vegetables tagged with {naH}. And why would they be? Every Klingon knows what a {peb’ot} or a {Hurgh} is! But what in the world is a {‘epIl} or a {banan}?
There is a long tradition in Star Trek of naming an alien thing with an alien name and then a common word to ground the viewer. Moba fruit http://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Moba_fruit Chee'lash fruit https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chee%27lash_fruit Lokar bean https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lokar_bean And so on. Okrand is doing the same thing. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 19:32, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 18.11.2019 um 19:21 schrieb Jackson Bradley:
To be clear: did he say /tanje'rIn/ or /tanje'rIn naH/?
According to Qov's story, he said {tanje'rIn}.
She affirmed to me that {tera' tanje'rIn} is wrong and that she recalls Okrand said {tanje'rIn} and not {tanje'rIn naH}. Zrajm who was also there confirms {tera' tanje'rIn} is wrong but is not sure whether {naH} was there or not.
I mean, what would be the difference between {tanje'rIn} and {tanje'rIn naH}? Just my opinion, of course.
It's the difference between a fruit being viewed as being foreign and being assimilated as a native food item. {tanje'rIn naH} sounds like something you see off-world or only in ethnically Terran neighbourhoods or specialised stores in the Klingon empire. {tanje'rIn} sounds like you could buy it at your local grocer in {veng wa'DIch} and maybe even grown locally in a greenhouse with Terran atmosphere. (Incidentally, the name "tangerine" originally indicated it as a fruit coming from Tangier, Morocco.) -- De'vID
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 1:32 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
But I would not put too much weight on that. It's very likely that he simply forgot that all fruits have the {naH} complement, and on the other hand, I have noticed that many people cheat in those cases saying {'epIl vISop} and everyone understands.
http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Tanje-rIn
I mean, what would be the difference between {tanje'rIn} and {tanje'rIn naH}? Just my opinion, of course.
This sort of ties into something I'm curious about. In KGT, p. 88, {naH} was originally defined as a culinary term, rather than a botanical one: Any part of any plant that is eaten may be termed {naH}, usually translated "fruit" or "vegetable." But when talking about Terran food plants, it's not used for things like potatoes. Potatoes aren't {patat naH}, they're referred to with a more specific term, {'oQqar}, focusing on which part of the plant a potato is. {naH} is only used to refer to Terran plant parts that are fruits in the botanical sense: that is, "the seed-bearing structure in flowering plants (also known as angiosperms) formed from the ovary after flowering." ( Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit>) E.g., {ghIrep naH} refers to the fruit of the grape plant itself, not to other parts of the grape plant that are eaten, like the leaves. So it seems that {naH}, aside from having a broader culinary meaning of "any part of any plant that is eaten", also has a more specific usage for botanical fruits. So I wonder: Did {naH} originally mean "seed-bearing structure formed from the ovary after flowering", and was then generalized to all edible plant parts? Does Klingon not have a specific word for fruit in the botanical sense, so they just use the generic {naH} to refer to such things on Earth? Is there a different word for things that are botanically fruits but aren't eaten <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inedible_fruits>, so they wouldn't fit into the original culinary definition of {naH}? *Sov luneH yIntejpu'...*
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 07:59, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Oh, by the way,
Am 18.11.2019 um 07:56 schrieb Lieven L. Litaer:> SKI: new Klingon word: tanje'rIn - the Earth fruit that Qov calls
an orange, but the kind that peels easily and breaks into segments without getting juice on your fingers.
I just read that in English, this word "tangerine" is also used for a similar fruit that in German is called Mandarine or even Clementine (which I know they were eating) so if the question arises, I'm sure that's te word now to use for those.
The German names for those fruits in fact correspond exactly to the same names in English: mandarin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_orange> - Mandarine <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarine> (C. reticulata), tangerine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangerine> - Tangerine <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citrus_tangerina> (C. tangerina or Citrus reticula L. var.), clementine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine> - Clementine <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine_(Frucht)> (C. clementina or Citrus × aurantium). (Whether or not Qov was really eating a tangerine, or a clementine which Okrand mistook for a tangerine, is another issue.) -- De'vID
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 07:57, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
[Qov:] (TFW when Klingons use a more precise vocabulary set for Earth fruits than I, a native-born Terran, do.)
chatlh! I defy you to look at this diagram of citrus hybridisation and tell me that these are not, in fact, all Klingon fruits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Citrus_tern_cb_simplified_1.svg -- De'vID
On Tuesday, 19 November 2019 08:41:40 GMT De'vID wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 07:57, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
[Qov:] (TFW when Klingons use a more precise vocabulary set for Earth fruits than I, a native-born Terran, do.)
chatlh! I defy you to look at this diagram of citrus hybridisation and tell me that these are not, in fact, all Klingon fruits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Citrus_tern_cb_simplified_1.svg
I'm sure a Satsuma is a candidate, but there might be some debate over the transliteration. {SatSu'ma} maybe? A clementine is clearly a terran name, where the original klingon was something like {'obangwI'}
On Nov 19, 2019, at 08:17, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 13:12, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: A clementine is clearly a terran name,
qatlh? The "cl-" beginning is clearly a {tlh}.
Qo'noSDaq machqu'bogh naH wIb tu'lu'. wIbqu'mo' SopDI' vay' rut tlhe'choH SopwI' mInDu'. vaj 'oHvaD «tlhe'mIn» ponglu'. 'ach wIbbe'bogh tlhe'mIn Sar tu'lu' je. na'ran wejwa' rur wejwa'Daj. mach je tlhe'mIn Sarvam, 'a tlhe'mIn motlh mach law' 'oH mach puS. vaj 'oHvaD «tlhe'mIn tIn» ponglu'. loQ rurchuqmo' tlhe'mIn wejwa' na'ran wIb wejwa' je rut mIS tera'nganpu' 'ej mISmo' vabDot rut tera' na'ran wIbvaD «tlhe'mIn» lupongtaH, 'ach pongvam luqolHa'qu'ba'taH.
On 11/19/2019 9:39 AM, Hugh Son puqloD wrote:
On Nov 19, 2019, at 08:17, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 13:12, Jeremy Silver <jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk <mailto:jp.silver@tiscali.co.uk>> wrote:
A clementine is clearly a terran name,
qatlh? The "cl-" beginning is clearly a {tlh}.
Qo'noSDaq machqu'bogh naH wIb tu'lu'. wIbqu'mo' SopDI' vay' rut tlhe'choH SopwI' mInDu'. vaj 'oHvaD «tlhe'mIn» ponglu'. 'ach wIbbe'bogh tlhe'mIn Sar tu'lu' je. na'ran wejwa' rur wejwa'Daj. mach je tlhe'mIn Sarvam, 'a tlhe'mIn motlh mach law' 'oH mach puS. vaj 'oHvaD «tlhe'mIn tIn» ponglu'.
loQ rurchuqmo' tlhe'mIn wejwa' na'ran wIb wejwa' je rut mIS tera'nganpu' 'ej mISmo' vabDot rut tera' na'ran wIbvaD «tlhe'mIn» lupongtaH, 'ach pongvam luqolHa'qu'ba'taH.
'o bangwI''e', 'o bangwI''e', 'o bangwI''e', tlhe'mIn tIn, Daq wISovbe'; reH bISaHbe', DaH ma'IQqu', tlhe'mIn tIn. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:12:39PM +0000, Jeremy Silver wrote:
On Tuesday, 19 November 2019 08:41:40 GMT De'vID wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 07:57, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
[Qov:] (TFW when Klingons use a more precise vocabulary set for Earth fruits than I, a native-born Terran, do.)
chatlh! I defy you to look at this diagram of citrus hybridisation and tell me that these are not, in fact, all Klingon fruits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Citrus_tern_cb_simplified_1.svg
I'm sure a Satsuma is a candidate, but there might be some debate over the transliteration. {SatSu'ma} maybe? A clementine is clearly a terran name, where the original klingon was something like {'obangwI'}
That would be an *awesome* word for "clementine", if only we could have it canonized.
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 23:30, <kechpaja@kechpaja.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:12:39PM +0000, Jeremy Silver wrote:
I'm sure a Satsuma is a candidate, but there might be some debate over the transliteration. {SatSu'ma} maybe? A clementine is clearly a terran name, where the original klingon was something like {'obangwI'}
That would be an *awesome* word for "clementine", if only we could have it canonized.
qatlh chIrgh wIgheSbe'. -- De'vID
participants (11)
-
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Hugh Son puqloD -
Jackson Bradley -
Jeffrey Clark -
Jeremy Silver -
kechpaja＠kechpaja.com -
Lieven L. Litaer -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel