On Nov 25, 2019, at 13:15, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh@qeylis.net> wrote:



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On Nov 25, 2019, at 11:49, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

 unless someone is a real native klingon, he can't learn the language, if he can't remember what type of suffix, each suffix actually is.

The point is that a native Klingon speaker would know how to put all of the suffixes in the right order without knowing which number each one has. I wouldn’t expect a native Klingon speaker who hasn’t specifically studied Klingon grammar to know the numbers of the suffixes any more than I would expect a native English speaker who hasn’t specifically studied English grammar to know what a participle is, or be able to name and classify the different types of articles on a test. I would even go so far as to say that a native speaker who cannot answer those questions correctly is still very likely to be more proficient at the language than a non-native learner who has perfectly memorized the names and categorizations. Being unable to correctly name grammatical elements doesn’t prevent one from using them correctly.

Oops, should have read your sentence better. You said *unless* someone is a real native Klingon. But my point still stands even for non-native learners. I don’t think a student needs to know all of the suffix numbers to be able to order them correctly. I’m certainly not a native speaker and I hardly ever think about the suffix numbers when writing or speaking, and I manage not to make too many mistakes.

While your complaint has the air of reason about it, there are a couple of reasons one might resist following the advice and changing the test: 1. If you are so good at knowing what suffix follows what, then it shouldn’t be so difficult for you to map out which numbered suffix it is. You know most of the suffixes, and you know how many Types there are (5 for nouns, 9 for verbs, plus rovers). Pull out a scrap of paper and doodle them out. It’s not that hard. 2. Tests are arbitrary. ALL tests are arbitrary. It’s okay for tests to be arbitrary. If you eliminate one arbitrary part of a test, you’ll just have to replace it with some other arbitrary thing that someone ELSE will object to. 3. Respect that the people who created these tests did so voluntarily, putting in a lot of time and thought in to what they sincerely thought would help people learn the language well. Complaints like this don’t make them feel good about that positive spirit they put into their sincere effort to give our nerdy little society another helpful resource. Whine too much about this sort of thing and we won’t have any tests, or Wikis or Web sites or mailing lists, for that matter. Appreciate what people do for you and for all of us. So, what resource have YOU created from hours of your own work that you voluntarily offered to the rest of us? Share with us how much you appreciate it when someone complains about how poorly executed your effort was. 4. If you are so naturally talented that you can intuitively absorb the language and know all the suffixes in the right order without learning the numbers of the suffix, then why are you bothering to take the test? A primary reason for creating the test is to give people guidance about what to work on in order to learn the language. If you just know the language like the back of your hand, then you don’t need no stinkin’ test. I went years without taking the test, and I was one of the founding members of the KLI. I appreciated the effort that went into it, but I didn’t have anything to prove. Eventually, peer pressure kicked in. “Hey. Don’t you want a complete set of these cool little pins?” That sort of thing. [sigh] I did it, okay? I did it with some eye rolling because much of the test wasn’t stuff that was important to me, but I didn’t care because I figured it would be important to somebody else. I didn’t ask for a special pass on any part of the test. I didn’t ask to be an exception because I was so special. And you shouldn’t, either. Just do the extra work and pass the test, or don’t do the work and skip the test. You’ll still be respected here as a full member even if you don’t get to wear the cool little pins. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Nov 25, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh@qeylIS.net> wrote:

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On Nov 25, 2019, at 13:15, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh@qeylis.net> wrote:



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On Nov 25, 2019, at 11:49, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

 unless someone is a real native klingon, he can't learn the language, if he can't remember what type of suffix, each suffix actually is.

The point is that a native Klingon speaker would know how to put all of the suffixes in the right order without knowing which number each one has. I wouldn’t expect a native Klingon speaker who hasn’t specifically studied Klingon grammar to know the numbers of the suffixes any more than I would expect a native English speaker who hasn’t specifically studied English grammar to know what a participle is, or be able to name and classify the different types of articles on a test. I would even go so far as to say that a native speaker who cannot answer those questions correctly is still very likely to be more proficient at the language than a non-native learner who has perfectly memorized the names and categorizations. Being unable to correctly name grammatical elements doesn’t prevent one from using them correctly.

Oops, should have read your sentence better. You said *unless* someone is a real native Klingon. But my point still stands even for non-native learners. I don’t think a student needs to know all of the suffix numbers to be able to order them correctly. I’m certainly not a native speaker and I hardly ever think about the suffix numbers when writing or speaking, and I manage not to make too many mistakes. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org>

I think there’s plenty of disrespect in this entire discussion. I don’t believe that I have more of it than you do. I doubt you would have as much interest in defending the complaint if I weren’t the one commenting on it. We both know that you are predisposed to objecting to pretty much anything I say, especially if you can lecture me about it. No sense pretending it isn’t personal. Fortunately, it doesn’t bother me much anymore. It’s been done to death. The maker of the test is welcome to review the materials and decide whether there is merit in changing them. Having put sincere effort into making the test fair and useful, they don’t owe anybody urgency to making changes. They have lives of their own and any effort put into updating the test is voluntary. The work they’ve already done does deserve more respect than this discussion has been offering. I make that point again, since I am the only person expressing it so far, and I am 100% certain that this point is not to be ignored. If you can teach the language so well without numbering the suffixes, make your own test and share it with others to see how universally helpful it is in teaching the language to others and improving their skills with it. Anyone, myself included, would welcome your contribution to the community. I’m sure that better tests could exist. They just need someone to put in the time and skill to make them. Until someone else does that, this test will do fine. Lots of people have improved their skills by using it. It has a track record. Other theoretical methods of teaching and testing this particular language in this particular forum are still theoretical. I’m glad there is a practical one already in existence, thanks to the good work of someone in this community. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Nov 25, 2019, at 3:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 11/25/2019 2:54 PM, Will Martin wrote:

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1. If you are so good at knowing what suffix follows what, then it shouldn’t be so difficult for you to map out which numbered suffix it is. You know most of the suffixes, and you know how many Types there are (5 for nouns, 9 for verbs, plus rovers). Pull out a scrap of paper and doodle them out. It’s not that hard. He's not complaining that he can't figure it out; he's complaining that knowing the numbers isn't necessary to speaking the language?

If you learn Klingon through Duolingo, for instance, you may not even be aware that suffixes have numbers. You may know the suffixes and their orders, but you didn't realize they were numbered.

When I took that test, I had to do exactly what you said: I had memorized the word QaghHommeyHeylIjmo' so that I would have a map to noun suffixes, because I didn't think in terms of numbers; I just felt which ones came first. To this day I can't always rattle off noun suffix numbers without thinking about them. Learning the numbers has little to do with speaking the language.

...

2. Tests are arbitrary. ALL tests are arbitrary. It’s okay for tests to be arbitrary. If you eliminate one arbitrary part of a test, you’ll just have to replace it with some other arbitrary thing that someone ELSE will object to. I object completely to everything you say in this paragraph. Tests are not supposed to be arbitrary. Tests are supposed to evaluate your knowledge and skill in the given subject. They should be designed to expose the ability of the person taking them. Being able to tell whether something is a type 1 or type 2 suffix is, as QIDwI' says, no different than someone being able to define what a participle is to prove their ability to speak English.

In this point, the KLI tests test knowledge of Klingon grammar, not ability to use Klingon.

...

3. Respect that the people who created these tests did so voluntarily, putting in a lot of time and thought in to what they sincerely thought would help people learn the language well. Complaints like this don’t make them feel good about that positive spirit they put into their sincere effort to give our nerdy little society another helpful resource. Whine too much about this sort of thing and we won’t have any tests, or Wikis or Web sites or mailing lists, for that matter. Appreciate what people do for you and for all of us. So, what resource have YOU created from hours of your own work that you voluntarily offered to the rest of us? Share with us how much you appreciate it when someone complains about how poorly executed your effort was. So now you've implied that QIDwI' is disrespectful, whining, and a layabout. C'mon. He's tried to present a respectful criticism, and I for one think he has a point.

I happen to think that most anyone learning English as a second language is going to learn more grammar than a native English speaker, so someone being tested in English as a second language would need to know the definition of a participle. A native speaker wouldn't be tested in their ability to speak English, so the ability to explain the grammar isn't tested anywhere except in an English class that's teaching grammar.

So ultimately I see the inclusion of suffix numbers on the KLI test as parallel to the inclusion of grammar rules in an English-as-a-second-language test, so probably appropriate. But I appreciate QIDwI''s point. I don't think testing on suffix numbers is strictly necessary.

...

4. If you are so naturally talented that you can intuitively absorb the language and know all the suffixes in the right order without learning the numbers of the suffix, then why are you bothering to take the test? Now you're just being offensive. If you love the Klingon language so much, why don't you marry it?

...

A primary reason for creating the test is to give people guidance about what to work on in order to learn the language. If you just know the language like the back of your hand, then you don’t need no stinkin’ test. If the KLI didn't hand out medals and certification levels for passing those tests, then no, he wouldn't need to take them. But it does, and students feel a certain pressure to prove themselves, as you yourself admit to.

...

I didn’t ask for a special pass on any part of the test. I didn’t ask to be an exception because I was so special.

And you shouldn’t, either. He's not asking for a special pass or to be an exception. He's criticizing the content constructively. If you don't think his criticism is valid — that is, if you have a reason why suffix numbers should be taught, say so and have done. If not, stop trying to beat him into submission.

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Just do the extra work and pass the test, or don’t do the work and skip the test. You’ll still be respected here as a full member even if you don’t get to wear the cool little pins. I don't see any respect coming from your post.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

I openly invite you to redesign the test. My whole point is that I don’t invite you to make whoever designed the test redesign the test. If they care to, on their own timeframe, they can certainly be welcome to do it, but I’ve seen less positive suggestion on this point than I’ve seen negative reaction to what now exists, without much in the way of appreciation shown for the effort that went into creating the test and making it available. If I seem defensive, it’s because I’m defending something I care about. I care about people creating resources for the KLI. I respect the hours they’ve put in, and I appreciate the positive intent of their efforts. That’s the beginning and the end of my concern. I never suggested that the test couldn’t be better, or that anyone willing to put the positive effort into redesigning it should be discouraged from doing so. I’m less interested in defending the specific, current form of the test than I am in defending the earned respect of whoever created the test and made it available. I would just as quickly defend respect for any new person who makes the positive effort to make the test better. It’s really easy to complain. It’s much harder to make a resource available to the community or to improve a resource that is available to the community. I’m just inviting the complainers to do the harder thing instead of the easier thing. We’ll all be better off if they accept the invitation. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Nov 25, 2019, at 4:45 PM, Jeffrey Clark <jmclark85@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps an examination of the KLCP tests is due, to see if it conforms to best-practices in testing and assessment in light of current pedagogical research.

One of the major issues in testing design is “what is being assessed?” The nature and wording of any question flows from this basic idea — and one of the biggest concerns in any design is figuring out if the questions asked actually assess concepts desired.

Thus, it’s not uncommon for tests to be continually reviewed. There’s no harm in it, and it’s never disrespectful to the original designer, rather it is simply the application of new information and research and the refinement of goals.

So: do we care that someone can identify the specific number of any suffix for this exam? Or do we care that they can identify suffixes that are in the correct order? While those two things are interrelated, they are not identical, and you can test for them in different ways.

It’s a question worth asking, and a valid one from a pedagogical point — something that those of us who work in education are familiar with dealing with on a constant basis.

—jevreH

Sent from my iPad

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On Nov 25, 2019, at 16:35, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:

 I think there’s plenty of disrespect in this entire discussion. I don’t believe that I have more of it than you do. I doubt you would have as much interest in defending the complaint if I weren’t the one commenting on it.

We both know that you are predisposed to objecting to pretty much anything I say, especially if you can lecture me about it. No sense pretending it isn’t personal.

Fortunately, it doesn’t bother me much anymore. It’s been done to death.

The maker of the test is welcome to review the materials and decide whether there is merit in changing them. Having put sincere effort into making the test fair and useful, they don’t owe anybody urgency to making changes. They have lives of their own and any effort put into updating the test is voluntary.

The work they’ve already done does deserve more respect than this discussion has been offering. I make that point again, since I am the only person expressing it so far, and I am 100% certain that this point is not to be ignored.

If you can teach the language so well without numbering the suffixes, make your own test and share it with others to see how universally helpful it is in teaching the language to others and improving their skills with it. Anyone, myself included, would welcome your contribution to the community. I’m sure that better tests could exist. They just need someone to put in the time and skill to make them.

Until someone else does that, this test will do fine. Lots of people have improved their skills by using it. It has a track record. Other theoretical methods of teaching and testing this particular language in this particular forum are still theoretical. I’m glad there is a practical one already in existence, thanks to the good work of someone in this community.

charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan

rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

...

On Nov 25, 2019, at 3:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:

On 11/25/2019 2:54 PM, Will Martin wrote:

...

1. If you are so good at knowing what suffix follows what, then it shouldn’t be so difficult for you to map out which numbered suffix it is. You know most of the suffixes, and you know how many Types there are (5 for nouns, 9 for verbs, plus rovers). Pull out a scrap of paper and doodle them out. It’s not that hard. He's not complaining that he can't figure it out; he's complaining that knowing the numbers isn't necessary to speaking the language?

If you learn Klingon through Duolingo, for instance, you may not even be aware that suffixes have numbers. You may know the suffixes and their orders, but you didn't realize they were numbered.

When I took that test, I had to do exactly what you said: I had memorized the word QaghHommeyHeylIjmo' so that I would have a map to noun suffixes, because I didn't think in terms of numbers; I just felt which ones came first. To this day I can't always rattle off noun suffix numbers without thinking about them. Learning the numbers has little to do with speaking the language.

...

2. Tests are arbitrary. ALL tests are arbitrary. It’s okay for tests to be arbitrary. If you eliminate one arbitrary part of a test, you’ll just have to replace it with some other arbitrary thing that someone ELSE will object to. I object completely to everything you say in this paragraph. Tests are not supposed to be arbitrary. Tests are supposed to evaluate your knowledge and skill in the given subject. They should be designed to expose the ability of the person taking them. Being able to tell whether something is a type 1 or type 2 suffix is, as QIDwI' says, no different than someone being able to define what a participle is to prove their ability to speak English.

In this point, the KLI tests test knowledge of Klingon grammar, not ability to use Klingon.

...

3. Respect that the people who created these tests did so voluntarily, putting in a lot of time and thought in to what they sincerely thought would help people learn the language well. Complaints like this don’t make them feel good about that positive spirit they put into their sincere effort to give our nerdy little society another helpful resource. Whine too much about this sort of thing and we won’t have any tests, or Wikis or Web sites or mailing lists, for that matter. Appreciate what people do for you and for all of us. So, what resource have YOU created from hours of your own work that you voluntarily offered to the rest of us? Share with us how much you appreciate it when someone complains about how poorly executed your effort was. So now you've implied that QIDwI' is disrespectful, whining, and a layabout. C'mon. He's tried to present a respectful criticism, and I for one think he has a point.

I happen to think that most anyone learning English as a second language is going to learn more grammar than a native English speaker, so someone being tested in English as a second language would need to know the definition of a participle. A native speaker wouldn't be tested in their ability to speak English, so the ability to explain the grammar isn't tested anywhere except in an English class that's teaching grammar.

So ultimately I see the inclusion of suffix numbers on the KLI test as parallel to the inclusion of grammar rules in an English-as-a-second-language test, so probably appropriate. But I appreciate QIDwI''s point. I don't think testing on suffix numbers is strictly necessary.

...

4. If you are so naturally talented that you can intuitively absorb the language and know all the suffixes in the right order without learning the numbers of the suffix, then why are you bothering to take the test? Now you're just being offensive. If you love the Klingon language so much, why don't you marry it?

...

A primary reason for creating the test is to give people guidance about what to work on in order to learn the language. If you just know the language like the back of your hand, then you don’t need no stinkin’ test. If the KLI didn't hand out medals and certification levels for passing those tests, then no, he wouldn't need to take them. But it does, and students feel a certain pressure to prove themselves, as you yourself admit to.

...

I didn’t ask for a special pass on any part of the test. I didn’t ask to be an exception because I was so special.

And you shouldn’t, either. He's not asking for a special pass or to be an exception. He's criticizing the content constructively. If you don't think his criticism is valid — that is, if you have a reason why suffix numbers should be taught, say so and have done. If not, stop trying to beat him into submission.

...

Just do the extra work and pass the test, or don’t do the work and skip the test. You’ll still be respected here as a full member even if you don’t get to wear the cool little pins. I don't see any respect coming from your post.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

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tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

You are fighting a straw man, making up your own versions of what I’ve said which are quite different from what I’ve said. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Nov 25, 2019, at 7:35 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 11/25/2019 5:24 PM, Will Martin wrote:

...

I openly invite you to redesign the test. My whole point is that I don’t invite you to make whoever designed the test redesign the test. I'm pretty sure your whole point was: don't offer criticism unless you're Somebody.

Wholly untrue. If anything I’m inviting people to become more useful to the group. Certainly, *I* am nobody at this point. I’ve made very few useful contributions to the group for years. I did a lot, earlier. So have you. But it’s been a while. There are an impressive number of people here who have put in sweat equity to deserve respect for the resources they have created and provided for everyone here. I consider them to be Somebody, simply because they have earned my respect. ANYBODY can become Somebody here. All you have to do is put in the hours. Come up with an idea and put some time in it. Do that, and yes, you do earn the right to being respected. Complaining is, by comparison, remarkably easy. Spend a minute or two at a keyboard and you are done.

I honestly can't tell if you're ignoring the real point to be defensive, or if you actually don't get it. This is someone saying

I have a problem, and here's something that would help. And you dump on him with And who do you think you are?

Okay, so what exactly is the problem? The original complaint was that he could not possibly finish the test because it asks him to do something that would take hours for him to learn how to do, and he doesn’t consider it to be a worthwhile requirement because his natural talent at language acquisition makes the task unnecessary. Well, he’s certainly not the first person who needed to spend hours studying to pass the test. I reject the idea that he is actually incapable of passing the test. He just doesn’t want to spend the time it would take him to pass it. That’s a valid personal choice. That’s what I meant when I sincerely suggested that all he has to do is not take the test. Nobody requires him to take it. Meanwhile, if he really suffers because he personally needs those three little pins and doesn’t want to have to study for the test, well, everybody else who has the pins passed the test. Many of them had to work as hard at it as he would have to work to earn those pins. The pins are not awarded to people because they are naturally good at acquiring language. They are awarded for passing the test. It really is that simple. That really sounded like the driving force behind the complaint. Yes, it is valid to point out that maybe the test, in its current form, is not the best teaching resource that such a test, in theory, could be, but he suggests that he doesn’t NEED the test as a resource to help him learn the language. He’s so natural at it that he can intuitively absorb the language without needing the test. That’s great for him. I’m genuinely happy for him, and glad that the language comes to him naturally. But he doesn’t get the pins for that. The only thing the test in its current form does in terms of impeding him is that it doesn’t present itself in a form that he can pass without spending some time studying. And why should he care? Why should he bother studying something that he doesn’t care about? Unless its for the pins, I’m clueless. For me, the pins were just an odd accomplishment; something already done by many more before me, kind of like upgrading the Master Sword in Breath of the Wild. I didn’t have to do it. I just decided, okay, it’s worth the effort for me to spend the time learning vocabulary I don’t generally use, learning suffix numbers that I can usually just look up, and doing other stuff that, as a person who had already been using the language for years, wasn’t really something that I needed to do. I just did it. Like everybody else did it. They didn’t have to be Somebody to pass the test. They just had to put in some time, study, and pass the test. He’s free to do that, or not. The idea that the test should be changed specifically so that he doesn’t have to study for a few hours doesn’t really get any traction. Sorry. That’s just an honest opinion. Basically, what I’m hearing is, “The test is too hard for me. Make it easier.” The answer being, well, don’t take it, then. Or, figure out how a test would do what this test is supposed to do, and come up with a test that would help new people learn the language more effectively. Create that better test. That’s fine, too. But just complaining because the test would require some study time? That’s not a strong start.

But okay, let's pretend it matters if I redesign the test. As a matter of fact, I have given a great deal of thought to how I would design a course in Klingon. I have posted extensively to the Duolingo discussion boards with my thoughts on how that course is constructed, often arguing with the very patient janSIy. I've thought much about how I would do it.

And it always comes down to this: I don't have a platform. Nobody's going to prefer SuStel's Klingon Kourse over Duolingo or the KLI. It would be wasted effort. Plus, I've got two small children and a job and a wife with a job; I haven't got lots of free time. Even now I'm stealing time from putting my kids to bed to write this.

I feel your sincere frustration. Text, as a medium, fails to prove that there is no sarcasm intended at all. I completely understand. I, also, am married, with three adult kids, all married, and have two grandchildren. I retire in a year or two. Maybe I’ll have some time then. Now, I don’t. I know you are very talented with the language, and I’m sure that you could come up with a great Klingon language course. If you do ever pull it off, I will be in line with everyone else to take your course, because I’m rusty, and I’m sure it would help me to be better with the language. I have no interest in disrespecting your ideas about how the test could be improved. Meanwhile, it’s quite possible that whoever made the test we now have, like you and I, has a busy life right now. Maybe they don’t have the time to change the test, or the background, or the ideas. What I didn’t hear from anyone so far is, “I have some time that I’m willing to put into improving the test.” Instead, there’s the suggestion that Somebody else should change the test in a specific way that won’t require as much arbitrary studying in order to pass it. The effort that went into the complaint was slight. It didn’t take much time or effort, and mostly, it seemed aimed at invalidating the work that someone actually has put into making the test happen. Like, maybe we should just hand out pins to everyone who wants one, because, hey, the test is useless and meaningless and the person who created it wasted their time and is wasting mine, requiring me to study in order to pass it. Face it. We speak Klingon. We waste our time. It’s a badge of courage for us. I know. You’ve proven that we are NOT the lowest rung of the Geek ladder, but we’re pretty competitive. We could yet win that prize. It’s okay for us to waste some time. I’m wasting mine, right now.

As for this particular test, I have already said that I'm not convinced that it needs changing. I'm not arguing with you that the test needs to be changed, or that he's right and you're wrong. I'm telling you not to attack him for making his point.

Nobody is saying the people who made the KLI tests haven't done a fine job. QIDwI' proposed something he thinks is an improvement, explaining why he thinks it is so. The wrong thing to do is to mock his explanation and suggest he come back when he's proved his bona fides.

People seemed to be piling on, in terms of disrespecting the test. I didn’t comment until the discussion had gone on for more than a few messages. In that thread, nobody was acknowledging that the person who created the test wasn’t casual about it, wasn’t mean-spirited or malicious or wholly ignorant. Good work went into it. It took a lot of hours of someone’s attention, persistently applied over an extended period of time. Everyone was encouraged to review the work and comment and make suggestions. That doesn’t make it holy and untouchable. It just makes it something useful that can only be replaced by someone putting more actual work into it. This test has been around for a long time. A lot of people have taken it. A lot of people have passed it. Anyone who wants to put work into improving it is welcome to do so. Trashing it in an extended discussion without expressing any respect for it is not cool.

...

If they care to, on their own timeframe, they can certainly be welcome to do it, but I’ve seen less positive suggestion on this point than I’ve seen negative reaction to what now exists, without much in the way of appreciation shown for the effort that went into creating the test and making it available. He didn't just give a negative reaction. He gave an explanation of what his problem is, and what he thought would positively fix it. And invited someone to explain why what he wants isn't as good an idea as he thinks.

How profusely should he have shown his appreciation?

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If I seem defensive, it’s because I’m defending something I care about. I care about people creating resources for the KLI. I respect the hours they’ve put in, and I appreciate the positive intent of their efforts. So, I think, does QIDwI'. He didn't say, This test sucks! He said he tried to take the level 1 test and realized it was asking him for things he hadn't learned, and questioned the appropriateness of teaching them. People are allowed to doubt the KLI.

Actually, he went quite a bit farther that that. He stated that he knew that it would be impossible for him to pass it. He added that it would require hours for him to learn this arbitrary stuff. Note that I don’t believe that having a requirement of hours of study to do a thing makes it impossible. Seeing those two parts of the argument so close together was what really impressed me. Hours to study = impossible to pass. Really? Then he went on to explain why he felt that he should not be required to spend hours learning this arbitrary stuff. That’s when I pointed out that he isn’t required to take the test at all. It’s his choice. Others have taken it. It hasn’t been all that easy or natural for them, either. Being easy or natural has never been a requirement for the test.

...

I never suggested that the test couldn’t be better, or that anyone willing to put the positive effort into redesigning it should be discouraged from doing so. I’m less interested in defending the specific, current form of the test than I am in defending the earned respect of whoever created the test and made it available.

I would just as quickly defend respect for any new person who makes the positive effort to make the test better. That is exactly what he did. He explained his trouble with the test and offered an outline of a solution. And you dumped on him.

I’m sorry. I didn’t see that outline of a solution. I saw him describe a test that he thinks would be easier for him to pass. That is not convincing as being “better”. Okrand teaches the language with numbered suffixes. That’s how it is explained in TKD. It’s quite natural to approach testing with the grammatical system as described by Okrand. The numbers are not some secret that only somebody who is Somebody has access to. It’s in The Klingon Dictionary, for cryin’ out loud. boQwI’ has them listed by numbered type. Someday, Someone can put some skilled work into improving the test, not so that it will be easier, but so that it will press students of the language toward understanding how this language works, and so that it will test how well they understand how it works. We all look forward to that day… … but THIS, is not that day… [Cue the sound of a sword clacking against a line of spears as the King rides at full gallop, along the front line of his cavalry, accompanied by the sound of coconut shells.] Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

Am 25.11.2019 um 21:21 schrieb SuStel:

In this point, the KLI tests test knowledge of Klingon grammar, not ability to use Klingon.

Indeed that's the point, I agree with SuStel. And for many people who take the test, it's a very disappointing thing. When I first took the test, I already had a good basic understanding of the language. I closely knew all phrases from TKW from my head, I certainly knew half of TKD's words, and I could contruct a dialogue quite well without making any major mistakes. I was definitely ready to take a level 1 test of any kind. (just for the record, I became Beginners Grammarian one year later) And then I was hit by the question: "Identify the suffix type". And what was even worse was, that there were about 4 or 5 of those questions in a test with only 20 questions. The requirements say you need to have 16 of them correct to pass the test. So, if you haven't memorized these type numbers, you will definitely fail. I'm not saying that the test is bad, and I also admire those who made it, as I see it was a lot of work. But I agree that it is very disappointing for those who want to take the test. Sure - nobody HAS to take the test, but it's just dispappointing for those who try. As SuStel says: it's a test of knowledge of grammar, not ability to use Klingon. And most students want to prove the latter. Many think like "Hey, look, I speak Klingon" and this test is a fist in their face saying "no, you don't." It's like the English test asking "What time situation is 'I have been learning'?" PS: Once you have passed Level 1, the next level 2 and 3 are not so hard. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de www.klingonwiki.net/En/KlingonLanguageCertificationProgram

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 4:43 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:

And this isn't the first time I've heard complaints about having to put numbers on suffixes on the test. I believe I've heard this complaint at every Saarbrücken qepHom I've attended.

I think people complain about it's because it's hard to learn lists of facts like this, especially if one is more used to learning languages in an organic way. It's why I failed the first time I took it, and why I spent the next 12 hours drilling them into my head so I could pass the next day. Once you have internalized that information, then it becomes a cake walk. The listing on the KLCP Guidelines page makes learning them pretty easy IMO. One of the goals of the KLCP is to "Provide credentials for Linguistics Officers (HolpIn) for fan clubs". These are people who are supposed to help others with the language, including teaching the language. The test is supposed to show that you can do more than just speak the language, that you also understand how it works well enough to impart that information to others. If you don't know or understand the suffix ordering, how can you teach someone else about them? I see the tests as a test of actual knowledge of the language. It's a test of book-smarts over a test of practical experience/usage. The suffix numbers are no less a part of the language than knowing which word for teacup to use in the correct social situation or how some dialect works. As someone who has sat for all the tests (many times :D), I've found there are many more obscure grammar points than suffix numbers in the later tests. Many times I've gone "Why is this on the test?!? I'd never use this knowledge!", but then I remember that being an expert means you may need to know stuff you'll think you'll never use. qurgh