*en* The more I think about it, the more I realize that Hector in the Troy movie was right; one needs to live by three simple rules: 1. Honor the gods. 2. Love your woman. 3. Defend your country. Everything else is unnecessary. *SuvwI'qoq Hol* lughchu' troy much hector 'e' vItlhoj, 'ej Sojvam vIQubqa'taHvIS, lughchu' hector 'e' vItlhojqu'; yIntaHvIS nuv, wej chut nap pabnIStaH: 1. Qun tIquvmoH. 2. be'lI' yImuSHa'. 3. SeplIj yIHub. 'utbe' Hoch latlh chutmey. ~ Dana'an *you will never bring down Olympus*
On 7/1/2021 10:26 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
1. Qun tIquvmoH.
ngeb Qun net Harchugh, chay' vanglu'?
2. be'lI' yImuSHa'.
be' ghajbe'lu'chugh, pagh loD lumaSlu'chugh, chay' vanglu'?
3. SeplIj yIHub.
SepwIj vIHub, batlh vangchugh SepwIj. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:26 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
1. Qun tIquvmoH.
chay' vay' tu'lu'be'bogh quvmoHlu'? qeSqoqvam Dogh vIloblaHbe'.
2. be'lI' yImuSHa'.
qeSvam vIpablaH jIH. 'a loD muSHa'nISbe''a'? be' ghajbe' nuv law' vISovbogh. (wa' be' vISaH jIH, 'ach ghaH vISeHbe'. <be'wI'> vIpongDI' chaq jIwogh.)
3. SeplIj yIHub.
<lughchugh Sep pagh mujchugh Sep, Sep yIHub> Dajatlh'a'? wejpuH. Duy'bej qeSvam. SepwIj yotchugh vay', ghaytan vIHub. 'ach quvHa'chugh SepwIj, qoj nuvpu' vISaHbogh QIDchugh, ghaytan vIHubQo'. -- ghunchu'wI'
jIH:
Qun tIquvmoH. SuStel: ngeb Qun net Harchugh, chay' vanglu'? ghunchu'wI': chay' vay' tu'lu'be'bogh quvmoHlu'? qeSqoqvam Dogh vIloblaHbe'.
yIn Qun/Qunpu' 'e' vIHar, vaj jIQochnIS. 'a SuStel ghunchu'wI' je, hector qeS boyajmeH, hector meq boyajnIS. 'ej hector meq boyajmeH, hellenic lalDan bopbogh wa' ngoD potlh'e' boyajmeH.. wa' ngoDmo' pImchu' hellenic lalDan, christianity lalDan je: jatlh christianity: < bItlhoghpu'pa', not yIngagh >, < qaStaHvIS 'op poH, 'op Soj yISopQo' >, < DutIchtaHvIS vay', yInoDQo' >, < Qun toy'wI''a' SoH 'e' yIlaj >. 'a jatlh hellenic lalDan: < ghob yIpab >, < SeplIj yotchoHchugh vay', SeplIj yIHub >, < Sub yImoj >, < pagh toy'wI''a' SoH, vaj toy'wI''a' yIDaQo' >. ngaghmeH mIw SaHbe'chu' hellenic lalDan; toy'wI''a'pu' neHbe'chu' hellenic lalDan, 'ej ngoDvammo' pImchu' hellenism christianity je. vaj, vInDa'Daj pIlmoHmeH hector, chaHvaD Qunpu' qawmoH. ..'ej yIntaHvIS nuv, hellenic lalDan paQDI'norgh pabchugh, Dub'eghmoHtaH nuvvam, 'ej SepDajvaD latlhpu'vaD je lI'choH nuvvam 'e' vIHarchu'. hellenic lalDanmo' Dunchu'pu' 'elaDya'nganpu' tIQ; 'a christianity lulajchoHpu'DI' 'elaDya'ngan, they became the shithole of Europe. They should have stuck to Hector's advice.. ghunchu'wI':
wa' be' vISaH jIH, 'ach ghaH vISeHbe'. <be'wI'> vIpongDI' chaq jIwogh.
I was quite surprised by reading this sentence, and the thing which surprised me was the way you seemingly/apparently understand the suffix {-wI'}. It seems, that the way you understand this suffix, if we say things like {be'wI'} "my wife," {SoSwI'} "my mother", {HoDwI'} "my captain", etc, then this signifies "ownership"/"possession", the same way one possesses his car, his keys, his house. But I don't think this is actually correct. Granted, the tkd, lists the suffix {-wI'} under chapter/paragraph 3.3.4 with the title "possession/specification", and it goes even further by saying, and I quote the words of god himself: "When the noun being possessed refers to a being capable of using language, a special set of suffixes is used for first- and second-person possessors". But then it says: "These suffixes occur in, for example, {joHwI'} 'my lord' and {puqlI'} 'your child'". I don't think that a person possesses his child or his lord, as he would possess a physical object, so I can't understand your comment of: {wa' be' vISaH jIH, 'ach ghaH vISeHbe'. <be'wI'> vIpongDI' chaq jIwogh}. ~ Dana'an
On 7/9/2021 9:33 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
I don't think that a person possesses his child or his lord, as he would possess a physical object, so I can't understand your comment of: {wa' be' vISaH jIH, 'ach ghaH vISeHbe'. <be'wI'> vIpongDI' chaq jIwogh}.
Legal possession and physical possession are not the same as grammatical possession. Klingon, like English, uses the concept of possession to represent relationships between people. /My child/ (and *puqwI'*) means the relationship between me and the person is that of parent (me) and child. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
Legal possession and physical possession are not the same as grammatical possession. Klingon, like English, uses the concept of possession to represent relationships between people. My child (and puqwI') means the relationship between me and the person is that of parent (me) and child.
Yes, I understand. That's why I can't understand ghunchu'wI' saying that writing {be'wI'} could be a transgression. {be'wI'} = my woman, which in hector's case means "my wife". If someone calls the woman he's married to "my wife/my woman" then does he transgress in some way? ~ Dana'an
On 7/9/2021 10:36 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
SuStel:
Legal possession and physical possession are not the same as grammatical possession. Klingon, like English, uses the concept of possession to represent relationships between people. My child (and puqwI') means the relationship between me and the person is that of parent (me) and child.
Yes, I understand. That's why I can't understand ghunchu'wI' saying that writing {be'wI'} could be a transgression.
{be'wI'} = my woman, which in hector's case means "my wife". If someone calls the woman he's married to "my wife/my woman" then does he transgress in some way?
It's because /woman/ does not imply a relationship to anyone, so saying /my woman/ is implying actual ownership. In contemporary English, that is. If someone calls a woman /my woman,/ a lot of people will consider it to be socially regressive. An ancient Trojan character might very well say equivalent of /my woman/ in his own language and mean ownership, as that was the common practice at the time. But you were offering these ancient rules as rules to live by today, so ghunchu'wI' said that if he referred to his wife as /my woman,/ it would be unacceptable, because he does not own her. We do hear Klingons on TV refer to /woman/ in the possessive, though it's unclear how much control or ownership is involved. But you didn't offer the advice to Klingons, or even ancient Trojans; you offered it to modern humans, and primarily English-speaking ones at that. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
It's because woman does not imply a relationship to anyone, so saying my woman is implying actual ownership. In contemporary English, that is.
This seems strange.. In Greek we never say "my wife" unless in a very formal setting. 99,999% of the time we say "my woman" to refer to the one we're married too. And no one considers this derrogatory; not even the most radical feminists. ~ Dana'an
On 7/9/2021 10:52 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
SuStel:
It's because woman does not imply a relationship to anyone, so saying my woman is implying actual ownership. In contemporary English, that is.
This seems strange..
In Greek we never say "my wife" unless in a very formal setting. 99,999% of the time we say "my woman" to refer to the one we're married too. And no one considers this derrogatory; not even the most radical feminists.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that *be'wI'*/my woman/ would be acceptable to Klingons in the same way it seems acceptable to you in Greek. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that be'wI' my woman would be acceptable to Klingons in the same way it seems acceptable to you in Greek.
This is indeed a complex matter, showing how each person from a different country, can use Klingon in a different way, leading often to the whole discussion going to hell. Sometime in the past I'd written "While the men where fighting, the women of Kronos knitted socks", which sentence I'd written, because in the second world war the women of Greece made the soldiers' clothes. While *all* the women of Greece (including the most radical feminists) are proud of their contribution, a person who back then was on this list, decided to take this as an insult to all women, writing something which I find worthless of repetition. Some people should realize that we're not obligated to follow whatever conventions the English language follows when writing in Klingon. And no one is to be expected to know the intricacies of each country's way of thought. In this list there's a person from Italy, a person from Spain, a person from Japan, a person from Germany, a person from Sweden.. Each has his own national/cultural background, which in turn will unavoidably influence the way he writes in Klingon. If someone is offended, then before starting to react, he/she could do what people usually do in such occasions: Ask for clarification. ~ Dana'an
participants (3)
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Alan Anderson -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel