We have the noun Hur, which is given as "outside". If I wrote, {juH Hur vInguvmoH}, would you understand it as "I paint the exterior of the house" ? Now, just a clarification.. Because I can *feel* someone ready to hit the "reply" button and suggest of using reD, or suggesting any other approach to this matter.. The question doesn't concern, how to say "I paint the exterior of the house"; the question is whether {juH Hur vInguvmoH} could be used to express this meaning. ~ changan qIj
On Mar 14, 2019, at 09:13, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
If I wrote, {juH Hur vInguvmoH}, would you understand it as "I paint the exterior of the house" ?
I would understand that as painting the areas outside of the house: the front yard and back yard, maybe even the street. But not the exterior walls.
On 3/14/2019 10:38 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
On Mar 14, 2019, at 09:13, mayqel qunen'oS<mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
If I wrote, {juH Hur vInguvmoH}, would you understand it as "I paint the exterior of the house" ? I would understand that as painting the areas outside of the house: the front yard and back yard, maybe even the street. But not the exterior walls.
Yes, I expect *Hur* means /area outside/ rather than /outer surface./ We have *HurDaq tu'HomI'raHvetlh yIlan*/Get that piece of junk out of here!/ from KCD, which clearly uses *Hur* as /area outside./ /Paq'batlh/ uses it in *qamchIy HurDaq SuvwI'pu'Daj ra' qeylIS SaqSub yIjaH* /Outside Qam-Chee, Kahless tells his warriors To go to the Saq'sub./ This, by the way, unambiguously uses *ra'* as a verb of saying. Then there is *'ach botlhejQo' SuSuvQo' vItlhejbej jIH Hur ghom'a' wIqaD* /Yet you will not join your blades with his, I for one will stand with him To face the hordes outside./ And this, by the way, gives an example of smooshing sentences together to form a single idea: /you won't accompany + you won't fight = you won't fight together./ Anyway, all these examples show that *Hur* means /area outside/ instead of /outer surface./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Mar 14, 2019, at 09:38, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
On Mar 14, 2019, at 09:13, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
If I wrote, {juH Hur vInguvmoH}, would you understand it as "I paint the exterior of the house" ?
I would understand that as painting the areas outside of the house: the front yard and back yard, maybe even the street. But not the exterior walls.
Actually, since {nguvmoH} means “make tinted” I wouldn’t restrict it to painting, either. I could also understand this as you releasing some kind of gas or particulate outside of the house to make the air colored. Didn’t something like this come up recently? About whether there’s a general way to say the exterior surface of an object? I don’t recall there being a consensus on that.
Although {Hur} is glossed simply as "outside" I think that this is another "area noun", that is it refers to an area or space., so "area outside" would probably be a better gloss. Here's how it's been used: HurDaq tu'HomI'raHvetlh yIlan Get that piece of junk out of here! (KCD) qamchIy HurDaq SuvwI’pu’Daj ra’ qeylIS SaqSub yIjaH Outside Qam-Chee, Kahless tells his warriors to go to the Saq'sub. (PB) 'ach botlhejQo' SuSuvQo' vItlhejbej jIH Hur ghom'a' wIqaD [Translation unavailable] (PB) The opposite of {Hur} is probably {qoD} "inside, interior", which is also used for areas or spaces: pa' qoD room's interior, inside of a room (KGT) yab qoD subconscious mind (n) (qepHom 2016) loghDaq lupDujHom qoDDaq bIlengtaHvIS, nIbuQbogh novpu' DaSuv Battle menacing aliens in a shuttlecraft journey through space. (STX) quwargh tach Qe' je qoDDaq Hov leng Soj DatIv Enjoy Star Trek themed food and drink at Quark's Bar and Restaurant. (STX) qoD QutlhwI' ngaDmoHwI' inner support stabilizer (KBoP ) [i.e. those large shock absorber ceiling supports flanking the captain's chair on the bridge] ghe'tor 'el qeylIS qul bIQtIqDaq ghoS QIStaq qoD ghoS Kahless enters Gre'thor, Follows the river of fire Deep into the Kri'stak volcano. (PB) [....] bIQtIq HeHDaq yIttaHvIS qeylIS QIStaq qoD DISDaq tu''egh qeylIS'e' DIS veghlu'chugh pa' Heghpu'bogh nuvpu' qa'pu' tu'lu' [....] Walking along the banks In the heart of Kri'stak Kahless finds himself in a cave Leading to The world beyond the living (PB) Thus I don't think {qoD / Hur} can be used for "inner / outer" - as in the inner/outer surface of something. Interestingly we also have {bIQ beb} "surface of water" from qep'a' 2018 - literally “water roof” - so Klingons may take a different view of these things than we do in English. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: mayqel qunen'oS We have the noun Hur, which is given as "outside". If I wrote, {juH Hur vInguvmoH}, would you understand it as "I paint the exterior of the house" ? Now, just a clarification. Because I can *feel* someone ready to hit the "reply" button and suggest of using reD, or suggesting any other approach to this matter. The question doesn't concern, how to say "I paint the exterior of the house"; the question is whether {juH Hur vInguvmoH} could be used to express this meaning.
mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> schrieb am Do., 14. März 2019, 15:13:
We have the noun Hur, which is given as "outside".
If I wrote, {juH Hur vInguvmoH}, would you understand it as "I paint the exterior of the house" ?
We've had this conversation already: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> schrieb am Mo., 26. Nov. 2018, 16:53: If I say {'IH juHlIj Hur} would you understand only "outside of your house is beautiful" or could/would you understand too "the outside of your house is beautiful" ? -- De'vID
Everyone else has answered your question unanimously. No, you can’t use that expression and expect people to understand that you mean that you are painting the outer surface of your house. Your statement means that you are painting the area outside of your house, not in the geometric sense but in the spacial sense. I, for one, wonder why you bother with Hur at all. If I hire someone to paint my house, they expect to paint the outside. If I want someone to paint the living room, then they expect to paint the interior surfaces of that room and not the outside surface of the walls of the living room. If I want someone to paint the interior walls, hey, we have a word for that: {tlhoy’}, which applies to the interior surfaces of exterior walls, as well as all surfaces of interior walls. We also have the perfectly applicable word {reD}, which you mysteriously seem to be averse to using. Do you really intend for them to paint the roof as well? That’s at lest as close to being outside the house as the walls are. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Mar 14, 2019, at 10:13 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
We have the noun Hur, which is given as "outside".
If I wrote, {juH Hur vInguvmoH}, would you understand it as "I paint the exterior of the house" ?
Now, just a clarification..
Because I can *feel* someone ready to hit the "reply" button and suggest of using reD, or suggesting any other approach to this matter..
The question doesn't concern, how to say "I paint the exterior of the house"; the question is whether {juH Hur vInguvmoH} could be used to express this meaning.
~ changan qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI':
I, for one, wonder why you bother with Hur
at all
The purpose of this thread was to find a way to express the exterior of an object. Using "I paint the house", is just an example I selected, which obviously I shouldn't have, because it would raise the question why I don't use reD. For a house we have reD. But what if I want to describe the exterior surface of an object in general ? This is one of the classic problems with klingon.. Some definitions tend to be so specific, that in the end we are being left holding our d***s, unable to express some things which one would expect them to be specified when these words were given. We have "surface of water", we have "surface of a planet", and the "bottom surface of a table, ceiling". But we don't have a word for "surface" in general. It was sooo damn important to have a word for the bottom surface of a table though.. Because, surely, each day there are sooo many times we need to talk about the bottom surface of a table.. 'a qay'be'.. jISaHQbe' jay'.. I should have learned by now.. ~ changan qIj
As it happens, I’m personally responsible for us having the word for the bottom surface of the underside of a table. As a Friend of Maltz, I was granted an opportunity to ask for a word. At the time, Klingon didn’t have any words for “top” or “bottom”. So, I asked for those two words. Instead, Maltz came back with a whole pile of words relating to the concept of top, bottom, maximum, minimum, exterior top and top of an interior space, etc. I return to what I said about houses, however. Basically, our experience of things is with surfaces. If we speak of a thing, we most often are speaking of surfaces. We say that a woman is beautiful. We aren’t talking about her spleen or intestines, or her general constitution of body mass. We are talking about her surfaces, clothing included. We pick up a baseball. We touch only the surface. If you paint a baseball, you paint only the surface. I honestly believe that surfaces are so generically important that it’s pretty rare that you need to differentiate them from the objects which they engulf. The Klingon words we have for surfaces highlight exceptional cases where the surface really is separately important. If you are trying to land an aircraft or spacecraft, the surface of the planet becomes REALLY IMPORTANT to you. If you are specifying how full to fill a fuel tank, the top surface of the interior of the gas tank is of special significance. If you are low on fuel, the bottom interior surface of the fuel tank is special. These surfaces really deserve identities differentiated from the objects they are surfaces of. It’s done with vocabulary, not with prepositions, in English, and it’s done with vocabulary, not area-nouns (which have the function of prepositions in English) in Klingon. It’s not perfect, but I think it’s good enough. If you have a specific example where there isn’t a word like {reD}, let’s work with it. Such an example deserves attention, but this half-effort to force {Hur} to mean something it doesn’t mean isn’t going to get the attention that you want to bring to the problem with what you see as a deficiency of this language. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Mar 14, 2019, at 12:24 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
charghwI':
I, for one, wonder why you bother with Hur at all
The purpose of this thread was to find a way to express the exterior of an object.
Using "I paint the house", is just an example I selected, which obviously I shouldn't have, because it would raise the question why I don't use reD.
For a house we have reD. But what if I want to describe the exterior surface of an object in general ?
This is one of the classic problems with klingon..
Some definitions tend to be so specific, that in the end we are being left holding our d***s, unable to express some things which one would expect them to be specified when these words were given.
We have "surface of water", we have "surface of a planet", and the "bottom surface of a table, ceiling".
But we don't have a word for "surface" in general.
It was sooo damn important to have a word for the bottom surface of a table though..
Because, surely, each day there are sooo many times we need to talk about the bottom surface of a table..
'a qay'be'.. jISaHQbe' jay'.. I should have learned by now..
~ changan qIj
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charghwI':
If you have a specific example where there isn’t a word like {reD}, let’s work with it.
Since you ask: "The tumor breaks through the outer surface of the bone" As far as "my half-effort to force Hur to mean something it doesn't mean" is concerned, I will exercise restraint and choose not to comment. ~ changan qIj
On 3/14/2019 3:11 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
"The tumor breaks through the outer surface of the bone"
My first instinct is to say *Hom Dop jeq ghul* (or whatever word you're using for /tumor/). But then, you can even just say *Hom jeq ghul.* Next I wonder whether Okrand has ever said that the wall-words only apply to architecture. Perhaps the outer surface of a bone is its *reD.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Very possibly. We’ve already mentioned {beb} “roof” in {bIQ beb} “surface of water” (qep'a' 2018). {'aqroS} “(interior) top” and {rav} "floor" were used for maximum and minimum respectively in the BOP Poster and Klingon Monopoly. Voragh From: SuStel On 3/14/2019 3:11 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote: "The tumor breaks through the outer surface of the bone" My first instinct is to say Hom Dop jeq ghul (or whatever word you're using for tumor). But then, you can even just say Hom jeq ghul. Next I wonder whether Okrand has ever said that the wall-words only apply to architecture. Perhaps the outer surface of a bone is its reD. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Since I'm replying from my phone, I can't quote the relevant parts of the messages. At first glance, SuStel and voragh, your suggestions are interesting. Unfortunately though, without having the means to express "exterior surface", the problem remains. If we say the tumor protrudes from the bone, then the question is, from which surface ? Most bones have four surfaces; ventral/dorsal/medial-inner/lateral-outer. Let alone the fact, that the need to specify outer has often to do with the need to say that the tumor doesn't break through the surface of the bone facing the medullary cavity. Now, I know that maltz isn't a doctor, and I chose this example just in order to answer to charghwI', that there are cases in which there is indeed a need for a word, which would mean "surface". And here is a simpler example: The fire burnt only the pillow's surface; it didn't burn the feathers inside. Anyways, I can understand that no constructed language can have words for everything. But I can't understand the need to avoid admitting that some missing words can be indeed at times necessary. As far as the interesting question "how would I describe cancer", the answer is simple: I would say from the start the name of the cancer, and then I would use "disease": "the disease broke through the bone". It is something which actually happens, to refer to cancer by simply saying {rop} "disease", once someone has said the cancer's name. e.g. The disease has spread There is still residual disease The disease went into remission And in case someone wonders "how would you describe the cancer's name ?" I would just say it. After all even in english, most of the cancers, don't have english names: Osteosarcoma, chondrosarcoma, liposarcoma; are greek words. 'a DaH paS, jIghung 'ej jIQongnIS.. ~ changan qIj
On 3/14/2019 4:42 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Unfortunately though, without having the means to express "exterior surface", the problem remains.
If we say the tumor protrudes from the bone, then the question is, from which surface ?
Most bones have four surfaces; ventral/dorsal/medial-inner/lateral-outer. Let alone the fact, that the need to specify outer has often to do with the need to say that the tumor doesn't break through the surface of the bone facing the medullary cavity.
Then you should make your wish-list choices /ventral, dorsal, medial-inner, and lateral-outer./ It may be telling that you are using specialized jargon to describe these. We don't have a lot of specialized anatomical words in Klingon -- we do have some -- so without being told how Klingon anatomy describes these, we can't answer the question of how to say it. You might argue that you should be able to say /top of the bone, front of the bone, back of the bone,/ and so on. And you can, in fact, say these things. But again, we're working with layman's vocabulary, not jargon. You can proclaim that we don't have a word meaning /outer surface,/ but you don't know that. You just know that /you/ don't know it. You can also complain that you don't have a word meaning /outer surface,/ but what are we supposed to do about it?
Anyways, I can understand that no constructed language can have words for everything. But I can't understand the need to avoid admitting that some missing words can be indeed at times necessary.
I don't do that. I'm doing my best to give alternatives and to speculate on the general case, but all I can do is speculate. There are some who like to force people to make their questions conform to answers they've already decided, but not everyone here is doing that.
As far as the interesting question "how would I describe cancer", the answer is simple:
You didn't say /cancer;/ you said /tumor. /There are multiple reasons for tumors. I leave you with this question. What is the English singular, third-person pronoun that refers to a person but doesn't require you to name that person's sex? Your answer should be an uncontroversial one. Surely there /has/ to be a word for that, right? Klingon has one: *ghaH.* Why wouldn't English have such an obviously necessary word? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 14.03.2019 um 20:36 schrieb SuStel:
Next I wonder whether Okrand has ever said that the wall-words only apply to architecture. Perhaps the outer surface of a bone is its *reD.*
Oh, yes. Also remember words like {Som} and {DIr}, and depending on context, maybe even {pel'aQ} or even {yub} - who knows? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
On Mar 14, 2019, at 15:54, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 14.03.2019 um 20:36 schrieb SuStel: Next I wonder whether Okrand has ever said that the wall-words only apply to architecture. Perhaps the outer surface of a bone is its *reD.*
Oh, yes. Also remember words like {Som} and {DIr}, and depending on context, maybe even {pel'aQ} or even {yub} - who knows?
Or maybe what we’re missing are words for interior and exterior front/back/side. I could imagine {'et} and {'o'} being interior front and interior back. Or maybe instead of front/back/sides there are three equidistant reference direction points like the compass directions. But we have {nIH} and {poS}, and {tlhop} and {'em}, so maybe not. Anyway, it does seem a little unusual that we can be precise about the interior and exterior surfaces that are at the top and bottom, but not the interior and exterior surfaces that are neither the top nor the bottom.
From: mayqel qunen'oS
charghwI': If you have a specific example where there isn’t a word like {reD}, let’s work with it. Since you ask: "The tumor breaks through the outer surface of the bone"
How about: Hom jeqchoH HanDI’ tlhoQ “the cellular conglomeration protrudes from the bone” If the tumor – whatever you want to call it in Klingon – protrudes from the bone, it has broken through the outer surface. Okrand on {jeq} “protrude from” and the following sentence from the “Federation Travel Guide” by Michael Jan Friedman (1997): tajwIj 'oHbe' chorlIj jeqbogh Dochvetlh'e' That is not my dagger protruding from your midsection. FTG (MO to Qermaq, st.k 6/18/1997): The object of this verb would be the thing from which something else (the subject) protrudes. Thus, {chor jeq taj} means a knife protrudes from a belly. I suppose this is a handy word to know if you're vacationing on Qo'noS. -- Voragh
The reason I said it was a half effort was that your example specifically excluded the obvious solution because you already knew the word you should be using and instead forced {Hur} into a completely unnecessary role. A full effort would have involved an example that didn’t have a word like {reD} to fill in what you want to argue is a void in Klingon’s capacity of expression that can only be filled by your interpretation of the potential range of meaning of the word {Hur}, which you already know people disagree with. As for your tumor example, I still don’t see the difference between it escaping from the bone, vs. breaking through the surface of the bone. It can break through the barrier between muscle and bone or between bone and blood. Here, the significance is less the surface than the system into which the tumor newly invades. Is there a surface example that can’t be handled with the word {veH}? Sent from my iPhone. Will
On Mar 14, 2019, at 3:11 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
charghwI':
If you have a specific example where there isn’t a word like {reD}, let’s work with it.
Since you ask:
"The tumor breaks through the outer surface of the bone"
As far as "my half-effort to force Hur to mean something it doesn't mean" is concerned, I will exercise restraint and choose not to comment.
~ changan qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 3/14/2019 5:08 PM, Will Martin wrote:
The reason I said it was a half effort was that your example specifically excluded the obvious solution because you already knew the word you should be using and instead forced {Hur} into a completely unnecessary role. A full effort would have involved an example that didn’t have a word like {reD} to fill in what you want to argue is a void in Klingon’s capacity of expression that can only be filled by your interpretation of the potential range of meaning of the word {Hur}, which you already know people disagree with.
He's annoyed because he's giving an example as an illustration, not as a problem to solve. He doesn't particularly care about bones; he wants to know how to talk about exterior surfaces of all kinds. You're scolding him for not being interested in your answer about bones.
As for your tumor example, I still don’t see the difference between it escaping from the bone, vs. breaking through the surface of the bone.
He wants to know how to distinguish which surface of the bone it protrudes from; he doesn't care about the protruding part.
It can break through the barrier between muscle and bone or between bone and blood. Here, the significance is less the surface than the system into which the tumor newly invades.
Is there a surface example that can’t be handled with the word {veH}?
I'm not convinced that the outer surface of a pillow would be considered a boundary in any but the most esoteric of discussions. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
De'vID:
We've had this conversation already:
loD tuv ghaH lieven'e'; 'ej reH lieven laHvam vIHo'. lieven is patient man; and always I've admired this ability of his. Do'Ha', lieven jIHbe'.. unfortunately, I'm not lieven.. 'o De'vID, DevID.. oh david, david.. qaStaHvIS wej DIS vorgh, vatlh law'qu' QIn vIghItlhta'; Hoch QInmeyvam DaqawlaHchugh, vaj qawlIj vIHo'qu'.. during the past three years, I have written hundreds of messages; if you're able to remember them all, then I truly admire your memory 'a ro' mojchugh ghIt.. but on the other hand.. jIghItlhDI', reH jIHvaD QIn tetlhvam tamey DanuDchugh, vaj choquvmoHqu'! if as soon as I write, you search on my behalf this list's archives, then you flatter me! hahaha ~ changan qIj
mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> schrieb am Fr., 15. März 2019, 10:21:
De'vID:
We've had this conversation already:
loD tuv ghaH lieven'e'; 'ej reH lieven laHvam vIHo'. lieven is patient man; and always I've admired this ability of his.
Do'Ha', lieven jIHbe'.. unfortunately, I'm not lieven..
chay' Lieven bop Sojvam jay'?! 'o De'vID, DevID..
oh david, david..
qaStaHvIS wej DIS vorgh, vatlh law'qu' QIn vIghItlhta'; Hoch QInmeyvam DaqawlaHchugh, vaj qawlIj vIHo'qu'.. during the past three years, I have written hundreds of messages; if you're able to remember them all, then I truly admire your memory
{juH Hur} luQIj latlhpu' 'e' DapoQpu', 'e' vIqaw. 'a ro' mojchugh ghIt..
but on the other hand..
jIghItlhDI', reH jIHvaD QIn tetlhvam tamey DanuDchugh, vaj choquvmoHqu'! if as soon as I write, you search on my behalf this list's archives, then you flatter me!
bIle'be'. nIbpoH qaSmoHDI' vay', reH jIghum. -- De'vID
charghwI':
The reason I said it was a half effort
Can you quote where exactly, I suggested that we use {Hur} in order to describe the exterior surface of something ? I asked, whether it *could* be used that way. Asking is one thing, while suggesting is quite another. And let me ask you; why don't you react similarly when people transliterate, or crap repeatedly on the "not using -Daq unless it is placed on a physical location" rule ? Don't these people suggest indirectly, that we *should* transliterate, and break the -Daq rule ? And as far as whether I think that a word meaning "outer surface" is necessary, yes I do. And it's my right, as it is the right of every tlhIngan Hol fan to have his own wish list. But has okrand EVER reacted the way YOU did/usually do, when a fan asks for something which he doesn't think is necessary ? Luckily no. Because if okrand chose to reply the way you do, soon the only person who would be using klingon, would be only okrand. ~ changan qIj
Wow. Just wow. That’s pretty vindictive. Impressively so. You seem to be responding to someone who claims more authority than I intend to. I’m just giving my opinion. All I was saying was that if you want to prove that we need a word we don’t have, you didn’t work very hard to create that proof. That’s it. I don’t think that deserves this degree of venom. But if you like venom, go for it. No skin off my nose. I’m going on a walk with my wife and my granddaughter. Much better company. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Mar 15, 2019, at 8:40 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
charghwI':
The reason I said it was a half effort
Can you quote where exactly, I suggested that we use {Hur} in order to describe the exterior surface of something ?
I asked, whether it *could* be used that way. Asking is one thing, while suggesting is quite another.
And let me ask you; why don't you react similarly when people transliterate, or crap repeatedly on the "not using -Daq unless it is placed on a physical location" rule ?
Don't these people suggest indirectly, that we *should* transliterate, and break the -Daq rule ?
And as far as whether I think that a word meaning "outer surface" is necessary, yes I do. And it's my right, as it is the right of every tlhIngan Hol fan to have his own wish list.
But has okrand EVER reacted the way YOU did/usually do, when a fan asks for something which he doesn't think is necessary ?
Luckily no. Because if okrand chose to reply the way you do, soon the only person who would be using klingon, would be only okrand.
~ changan qIj
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participants (7)
-
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin