jIH:

jIHaDchoHta'DI' SuStel: jIHaDchoHDI'

I was trying to express "as soon as I had started studying", trying to give emphasis to the fact that "my starting" had been completed. But now I wonder: In the {jIHaDchoHta'DI'}, is it possible for the {-ta'} to refer to the {-choH}, or does it exclusively refer to the verb ? jIH:

'ej jIbuS 'e' vInID SuStel 'e' vInIDDI'

oh yes, you're right ! I actually thought of using the {-DI'}, but some wires in my mind short-circuited and I thought it was a type 7 suffix ! jIH:

yIQ vay' SuStel vay' yIQ

I can't believe I made this mistake.. jIH:

vItlhe'taH SuStel: vItlhe'lI'

Indeed ! I always seem to forget the existence of the {-lI'}. qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 23 Nov 2016 5:25 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 11/23/2016 10:11 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

jIHaDchoHta'DI',

The *-ta'* here is unnecessary, and could be interpreted in multiple ways; it's not strictly wrong. But if you just said *jIHaDchoHDI',* you're saying *as soon as I begin studying,* which is obviously what you're going for.

'ej jIbuS 'e' vInID,

*'e' vInIDDI'*

'ej SIbI' muHotchoH yIQ vay' !

*vay' yIQ*

or even better:

*yIQwI'*

ghIq jIleghmeH nachwIj vItlhe'taH, 'ej ghIch yIQ vItu' !

*vItlhe'lI'* would work so much better here.

On 11/23/2016 10:11 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

ben law', jIHaDmeH yotlhmajDaq vIjaH.

pa', jIpawta'DI' wa'DIch quSlabDaq jIba' 'ej ghIq jIHaDchoH..

'ach, pIj qaS wanI'vam Huj:

jIHaDchoHta'DI', 'ej jIbuS 'e' vInID, pay' wab vIQoychoH. Huj wabvam 'ej tlhaQ: *sniff* *sniff* *sniiiif*..

'ej SIbI' muHotchoH yIQ vay' !

wa'DIch jIQub: qaStaH nuq jay' ? ghIq jIleghmeH nachwIj vItlhe'taH, 'ej ghIch yIQ vItu' ! mularghtaH vavwI' dog..

toH, ngugh dogvaD jIjatlh: *hey* maqoch.. Doch qaq DaqaSnISmoHbogh tu'be'lu''a' ? be' dog DaSam DaneHbe''a' ?

'ej ghIq - Do' -, jIHvo' tlheD dog..

-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name

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SuStel:

Or to look at it another way: at what point do you finish starting? Can you point to the moment that *-DI'* points to, when the starting is completed and something else happens?

I see.. Indeed I can't define a specific point at which I finish starting and something else happens. So, I understand that trying to combine the {-ta'} with the {-choH} is indeed weird. however, since this came up let me ask you about this: SuStel:

Whether *-ta'* must refer to only the verb or can be applied to the *-choH* is not a settled issue

this "not settled issue" concerns only the {-ta'} and {-choH} (when they co-exist) at the same verb, or does it extend to all kinds of verb suffixes ? qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 23 Nov 2016 6:06 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 11/23/2016 10:44 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

jIH:

...

jIHaDchoHta'DI' SuStel: jIHaDchoHDI'

I was trying to express "as soon as I had started studying", trying to give emphasis to the fact that "my starting" had been completed. But now I wonder: In the {jIHaDchoHta'DI'}, is it possible for the {-ta'} to refer to the {-choH}, or does it exclusively refer to the verb ?

Saying *jIHaDchoHDI'* doesn't mean the starting of your studying is incomplete. It does mean that studying has started. Although it isn't described this way in *TKD,* *-choH* is a kind of aspect just like *-pu', -taH,* and the other type 7s are. Aspect describes how an action behaves over time. *-choH* describes the action as suddenly starting, then continuing from that point. Combining *-choH* and *-DI'* is enough to say "as soon as this starting point arrives."

Whether *-ta'* must refer to only the verb or can be applied to the *-choH* is not a settled issue, but I don't think you need to resolve it to say what you're trying to say. You're interested in a starting point, not a stopping point. *-ta'* describes a stopping point; *-choH* describes a starting point.

Or to look at it another way: at what point do you finish starting? Can you point to the moment that *-DI'* points to, when the starting is completed and something else happens?

-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name

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I remember reading somewhere at the klingon wiki about this subject; about the fact that although the order of verb suffixes is rigid, there can be many possible alternate interpretations. I guess the goal is, to be able to express the intented meaning with the simplest way possible in order to diminish the margin for alternate meanings. I think it was bruce lee who said: "as years go by, the real master removes things from his art instead of adding new ones". The application of these words in klingon, with regards to our current subject, is "use only the necessary suffixes; the fact that you can string together many of them doesn't mean you should actually do it". roS'egh dog ngoQvam chavlaHmo'. but since we're not dogs, we should refrain from doing things just because we can. qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 23 Nov 2016 6:56 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 11/23/2016 11:42 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

SuStel:

...

Whether *-ta'* must refer to only the verb or can be applied to the *-choH* is not a settled issue

this "not settled issue" concerns only the {-ta'} and {-choH} (when they co-exist) at the same verb, or does it extend to all kinds of verb suffixes ?

It's a question that involves many suffix combinations. Even those suffixes that explicitly modify other suffixes (e.g., *-be'*) sometimes seem to modify entire verbs or entire sentences.

*qamejnISmoH:* do I need to cause you to leave, or do I cause you to need to leave?

*Hoch DaSopbe'chugh batlh bIHeghbe' **Eat everything or you will die without honor *(PK) Will you remain alive honorably?

*SuvwI'pu' qan tu'lu'be' *(TKW)* 'ach QuvlIjDaq yIH tu'be'lu'jaj* (PK) What exactly does a negated indefinite subject mean, anyway?

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