I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow". How is it possible, that the almighty warrior race never invented arrows or apparently never came to know them ? qunnoq
Am 19.07.2017 um 16:26 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow".
How is it possible, that the almighty warrior race never invented arrows or apparently never came to know them ?
I need to return the question: Have you ever seen a Klingon on screen shooting arrows? :-) Okay, staying in the game, I think that Klingons certainly enjoy close contct combat. Whe know they have lots of swords, knives, axes etc. They have spears, and even a spear throwing device, which still does not go sofar as an arrow goes. Arrows are good for long distance fights. I think that's just not the Klingon way of fighting. Perhaps someone knows more about that, because I'm usually more into grammar than culture. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Weapons
On 7/19/2017 10:30 AM, Lieven wrote:
Am 19.07.2017 um 16:26 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow".
How is it possible, that the almighty warrior race never invented arrows or apparently never came to know them ?
I need to return the question: Have you ever seen a Klingon on screen shooting arrows?
No, but I've seen a Klingon on screen being /shot/ by an arrow! Barring a dedicated word, I'd probably just use *naQjejHom, chonnaQHom, *or*gnIntaqHom* as the situation warranted. Maybe I'd say something like *naQjejHom vo'lu'bogh*/minor spear which is propelled;/ maybe using *vo'* instead of *chuH* is enough to show this just a small thrown spear. Oh, look! This question has been asked before: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/97330/klingon-for-arrow I don't have /Hamlet/ handy. How did they translate /slings and arrows/? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 19 July 2017 at 16:42, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I don't have Hamlet handy. How did they translate slings and arrows?
{taH pagh taHbe’. DaH mu’tlheghvam vIqelnIS. quv’a’, yabDaq San vaQ cha, pu’ je SIQDI’?} "To be, or not to be:—that is the question:— Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, ..." {cha, pu' je} -- De'vID
SuStel:
* naQjejHom vo'lu'bogh*
Or maybe even {naQjejHom'e' vo'bogh jan} And as a sidenote to all this.. tlhoy muHagh "phasers and torpedoes of misfortune", 'ej jIHaghtaHvIS mInDu'wIjvo' ghIt bIQ.. The "phasers and torpedoes of misfortune" made me cry from laughter.. hahaha qunnoq On 19 Jul 2017 5:49 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 19 July 2017 at 16:42, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I don't have Hamlet handy. How did they translate slings and arrows?
{taH pagh taHbe’. DaH mu’tlheghvam vIqelnIS. quv’a’, yabDaq San vaQ cha, pu’ je SIQDI’?} "To be, or not to be:—that is the question:— Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, ..."
{cha, pu' je}
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
{taH pagh taHbe’. DaH mu’tlheghvam vIqelnIS. quv’a’, yabDaq San vaQ cha, pu’ je SIQDI’?} It seems to mean: "To endure or not to endure, now he must consider this (grammatical) sentence. Is he honored, in the brain, when he endures the torpedoes and phasers of effective/vigorous fate?". So the issue was dodged. We need a word for "arrow", a short word, not a long periphrasis. And for bow, bowstring, quiver, etc. Also, in a scenario dominated by energy weapons, we seem to have no word for "bullet", or "artillery shell". ----Original message----
From : de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com Date : 19/07/2017 - 15:49 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Don't they have jay' arrows ?
On 19 July 2017 at 16:42, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I don't have Hamlet handy. How did they translate slings and arrows?
If the play is from before {cha} and {pu'} had their modern meanings, maybe it's not a dodge after all. Perhaps these words translate at least roughly from no' Hol as "slings" and "arrows," and are connected to the irregular plural of {peng} and the {pu'} in {DaSpu'}. ~mIp'av On Wednesday, July 19, 2017, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
{taH pagh taHbe’. DaH mu’tlheghvam vIqelnIS. quv’a’, yabDaq San vaQ cha, pu’ je SIQDI’?}
It seems to mean:
"To endure or not to endure, now he must consider this (grammatical) sentence. Is he honored, in the brain, when he endures the torpedoes and phasers of effective/vigorous fate?".
So the issue was dodged. We need a word for "arrow", a short word, not a long periphrasis. And for bow, bowstring, quiver, etc.
Also, in a scenario dominated by energy weapons, we seem to have no word for "bullet", or "artillery shell".
----Original message---- From : de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com Date : 19/07/2017 - 15:49 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Don't they have jay' arrows ?
On 19 July 2017 at 16:42, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I don't have Hamlet handy. How did they translate slings and arrows?
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 7/19/2017 1:46 PM, Ed Bailey wrote:
If the play is from before {cha} and {pu'} had their modern meanings, maybe it's not a dodge after all. Perhaps these words translate at least roughly from no' Hol as "slings" and "arrows," and are connected to the irregular plural of {peng} and the {pu'} in {DaSpu'}.
First, let's remember that /Hamlet/ is not by Okrand; it's not canonical. Don't go crazy trying to work this into your personal understanding of Klingon. Then, for those who haven't read it, know that /Hamlet/ is given a backstory in its introduction: it's actually a fairly modern Klingon play, written by a Klingon after Klingons have achieved spaceflight and apparently after contact with the Federation. But the sneaky Federation has waged a propaganda war against the Klingon Empire and created a false history of Earth literature, in which Shex'pir was actually a human from many centuries earlier, so it's hard to go and find proof that this isn't true. This edition of /Hamlet/ is an attempt to counter this propaganda and "reconstruct" what the original Klingon must have looked like. So when /Hamlet/ says *cha pu' je,* you should take it literally and in its modern sense. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I think I was pretty clear when I said, "If the play is from before {cha} and {pu'} had their modern meanings." Or are we not allowed to speculate? ~mIp'av On Wednesday, July 19, 2017, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/19/2017 1:46 PM, Ed Bailey wrote:
If the play is from before {cha} and {pu'} had their modern meanings, maybe it's not a dodge after all. Perhaps these words translate at least roughly from no' Hol as "slings" and "arrows," and are connected to the irregular plural of {peng} and the {pu'} in {DaSpu'}.
First, let's remember that Hamlet is not by Okrand; it's not canonical. Don't go crazy trying to work this into your personal understanding of Klingon.
Then, for those who haven't read it, know that Hamlet is given a backstory in its introduction: it's actually a fairly modern Klingon play, written by a Klingon after Klingons have achieved spaceflight and apparently after contact with the Federation. But the sneaky Federation has waged a propaganda war against the Klingon Empire and created a false history of Earth literature, in which Shex'pir was actually a human from many centuries earlier, so it's hard to go and find proof that this isn't true. This edition of Hamlet is an attempt to counter this propaganda and "reconstruct" what the original Klingon must have looked like.
So when Hamlet says cha pu' je, you should take it literally and in its modern sense.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 7/19/2017 2:03 PM, Ed Bailey wrote:
I think I was pretty clear when I said, "If the play is from before {cha} and {pu'} had their modern meanings." Or are we not allowed to speculate?
To which I answered: but the play is not from before *cha* and *pu'* had their modern meanings. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Jul 19, 2017, at 2:03 PM, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I was pretty clear when I said, "If the play is from before {cha} and {pu'} had their modern meanings."
ngerlIj tobHa'chu'DI' vay', bIlujbe'. ghurmo' SovlIj bIQaplaw'. The reply was equally clear: it is not from such ancient times. Shouldn't you be thanking him for sharing that knowledge, rather than acting annoyed at having received more information?
Or are we not allowed to speculate?
qay'be'. yISIv. yIghel. 'a bImujchugh, yIqejQo'. De' lI' yIlaj. yIghoj. Speculation is okay when it's about something we don't know. That's not the case here, and the appropriate response to finding that out ought to be a positive one, not a defensive one. Continuing to wonder about the truth of something we know to be false won't help anyone understand things better. -- ghunchu'wI'
On 19 July 2017 at 16:26, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow".
How is it possible, that the almighty warrior race never invented arrows or apparently never came to know them ?
It's obvious that a so-called "arrow" is just a {-Hom}ed version of a "spear". Klingon has vocabulary dealing with spears and spear-throwing devices. -- De'vID
This whole subject reminds me of something similar I had read about the ancient Spartans, i.e. that they felt contempt for any type of weapon which would kill from afar. So, perhaps -culturally-, this or something similar could apply for klingons as well. On the other hand, De'vID's comment was indeed very interesting, i.e. describing an arrow with the word for spear plus the {-Hom}. And taking this further, perhaps the ideal thing to do would be saying {thlevjaQHom} in order to describe an "arrow", since the other types of klingon spears are "hand held ones", in contrast to the {tlhevjaQ}, which is thrown with the aid of a special tool. Or perhaps we could say also {tlhevjaQ mach}.. qunnoq On 19 Jul 2017 5:31 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 19 July 2017 at 16:26, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow".
How is it possible, that the almighty warrior race never invented arrows or apparently never came to know them ?
It's obvious that a so-called "arrow" is just a {-Hom}ed version of a "spear". Klingon has vocabulary dealing with spears and spear-throwing devices.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I think the fact that there is currently no word for "arrow" says less about Klingon approaches to ancient forms of ranged weaponry and more about which topics Marc Okrand has gotten around to asking Maltz about. On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:26 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow".
How is it possible, that the almighty warrior race never invented arrows or apparently never came to know them ?
qunnoq
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
naQjejHom On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:26 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow".
How is it possible, that the almighty warrior race never invented arrows or apparently never came to know them ?
qunnoq
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
ghItlhpu' mayqel, jatlh:
I can't understand why there isn't a klingon word for "arrow".
The Australian indigenous people have been getting by perfectly well for 65,000 years without bow and arrow technology and they've largely done just fine. The bow and arrow is a relatively recent development that seems to have been invented just once, in Eurasia, and spread out to the rest of the world from there. Aside from which, a well-thrown spear from a woomera or atlatl can travel nearly as far as an arrow; the current world record for an atlatl-propelled spear is 258.6 metres, set by Dave Engvall in 1995. Given how exhaustive KGT's discussion of weaponry is, I believe the only reason there isn't a Klingon word for "arrow" (or "bow", for that matter) is that they simply never developed bow and arrow technology, and that the {chetvI'} was the device they used instead. QeS 'utlh
participants (10)
-
Anthony Appleyard -
De'vID -
Ed Bailey -
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
Rhona Fenwick -
SuStel -
Will Martin