new words from DSC-subtitles (with minor SPOILERS)
This message contains SPOILERS about episode 10 of Star Trek: Discovery. Do NOT continues beyond this line of birdies if you want to avoid them. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. I had already forwarded the word for "palace", which had been used in this latest episode, but there are two more words that could only be released after you have seen the episode. From Marc Okrand: --------------------------- {San} can be translated as either "fate" or "destiny" (and probably some other things). For “parallel universe,” I’d go with {'u' quq}, using {quq} "happen simultaneously, be simultaneous." {quq} is okay for "parallel" (in this sense). (1) Just as a "parallel universe" can't exist by itself (there has to be a universe -- presumably ours -- that it's parallel to), a "simultaneous universe" can't exist by itself. In both cases, you can refer to one universe at a time -- you don't always have to mention both (or several). (2) For "mirror universe," I suggest {Dop} "be opposite, antithetical, contradictory" (yes — this is a new word). If they're not making a real distinction between "parallel" and "mirror" (that is, if they're using the words interchangeably), I'd stick with {quq}. (3) --------------------------- Notes from me: 1) This second line appeared because I asked if the word works for "parallel", so it only works here, not in general literally. 2) This explanation was if anyone asks whether {quq} as a verb must have two subjects. 3) They ARE making a distinction, so I used both words. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/DSC110
On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 08:30:58PM +0100, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
This message contains SPOILERS about episode 10 of Star Trek: Discovery. Do NOT continues beyond this line of birdies if you want to avoid them.
.-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-.
I had already forwarded the word for "palace", which had been used in this latest episode, but there are two more words that could only be released after you have seen the episode.
From Marc Okrand: --------------------------- {San} can be translated as either "fate" or "destiny" (and probably some other things).
For “parallel universe,” I’d go with {'u' quq}, using {quq} "happen simultaneously, be simultaneous." {quq} is okay for "parallel" (in this sense). (1)
Just as a "parallel universe" can't exist by itself (there has to be a universe -- presumably ours -- that it's parallel to), a "simultaneous universe" can't exist by itself. In both cases, you can refer to one universe at a time -- you don't always have to mention both (or several). (2)
For "mirror universe," I suggest {Dop} "be opposite, antithetical, contradictory" (yes — this is a new word). If they're not making a real distinction between "parallel" and "mirror" (that is, if they're using the words interchangeably), I'd stick with {quq}. (3)
I'm now wondering whether {nIqHom SIrgh quq} could be used for "concurrent thread" in the context of software. It seems like basically the same idea from my perspective, but perhaps a Klingon {ghunwI'} would see things differently. - SapIr
For "mirror universe," I suggest {Dop} "be opposite, antithetical, contradictory" (yes — this is a new word).
Very useful! I've been wanting a word for "be opposite". I guess the opposites would go in the subject: {Dop X Y je.} = "X and Y are the opposites of each other." Alternatively, perhaps you could say something like {X'e' Dop Y.}, or just {Dop Y.} if X is clear from context. Perhaps you could even use {Y DopmoH X.}; it is X that makes Y opposite, as something cannot be opposite of nothing. Would be interesting to know how to use this to describe antonyms. Can you treat verbs like names, and say something like: {Dop Say' lam je.} = "Say' and lam are opposites." Or perhaps give them "titles" such as: {Dop Say' wot lam wot je.} = "The verb Say' is the opposite of the verb lam." Or would you have to nominalize for the sentence to make grammatical sense? {Dop Say'taHghach lamtaHghach je.} = "Cleanliness and filthiness are opposites."
I'm now wondering whether {nIqHom SIrgh quq} could be used for "concurrent thread" in the context of software.
I would be inclined to use {quq} when discussing parallel computing, where the threads are actually being run simultaneously, unlike concurrent threading where (I believe) the threads need to share resources. I'm a bit tempted to use {'ovbogh} to describe "concurrent", as they are essentially competing (albeit peacefully) for resources. However, that may be a case of linguistic bias (in Swedish, the word "konkurrent" means "competitor" or "rival"). I think {tlhegh} might be preferable to {SIrgh}, considering the word {mu'tlhegh}, though I might be reading too much into that. {mIr} would certainly make a lot of sense, as it has discrete elements. {tlhegh} is also apparently used for lines formed by people (c.f. paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 1, Stanza 9, Line 2 - chen wej tlheghmey), though it's unclear if the word incorporates the sequential aspects of a queue or just the shape of a rope. //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 21:23 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] new words from DSC-subtitles (with minor SPOILERS) On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 08:30:58PM +0100, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
This message contains SPOILERS about episode 10 of Star Trek: Discovery. Do NOT continues beyond this line of birdies if you want to avoid them.
.-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-. .-=-.
I had already forwarded the word for "palace", which had been used in this latest episode, but there are two more words that could only be released after you have seen the episode.
From Marc Okrand: --------------------------- {San} can be translated as either "fate" or "destiny" (and probably some other things).
For “parallel universe,” I’d go with {'u' quq}, using {quq} "happen simultaneously, be simultaneous." {quq} is okay for "parallel" (in this sense). (1)
Just as a "parallel universe" can't exist by itself (there has to be a universe -- presumably ours -- that it's parallel to), a "simultaneous universe" can't exist by itself. In both cases, you can refer to one universe at a time -- you don't always have to mention both (or several). (2)
For "mirror universe," I suggest {Dop} "be opposite, antithetical, contradictory" (yes — this is a new word). If they're not making a real distinction between "parallel" and "mirror" (that is, if they're using the words interchangeably), I'd stick with {quq}. (3)
I'm now wondering whether {nIqHom SIrgh quq} could be used for "concurrent thread" in the context of software. It seems like basically the same idea from my perspective, but perhaps a Klingon {ghunwI'} would see things differently. - SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
The use of {Dop} may work in parallel <g> to {Don} and {leD}: (De'vId < MO, 11/16/2014): While {Don} means "be parallel," {DonHa'} does not mean "be perpendicular." It means something like "be misaligned." The word for "be perpendicular" is {leD} and it's normally used with a plural subject: {leD rav tlhoy' je} "the floor and the wall are perpendicular (to each other)". (De'vID, 11/19/2014): The reason I asked [Okrand] about {Don} is that it's defined as both "be parallel" and "go parallel to", suggesting it can either take a plural subject (?{Don rav, rav'eq je}) or an object (?{'entepray' Don Qo'noS wa'}). He answered with {leD}, which he explained is normally used with plural subjects (implying it doesn't take an object). Does that make {Don} and {leD} a pair of words which one might expect to be parallel, but actually aren't quite - that is, as if they were misaligned ({DonHa'})? :-) I think that's part of the joke." --Voragh -----Original Message----- From: Felix Malmenbeck I guess the opposites would go in the subject: {Dop X Y je.} = "X and Y are the opposites of each other." Alternatively, perhaps you could say something like {X'e' Dop Y.}, or just {Dop Y.} if X is clear from context. Perhaps you could even use {Y DopmoH X.}; it is X that makes Y opposite, as something cannot be opposite of nothing.
I'd like to know if in {Dop} we finally have a way to express negative numbers, ?{wa' Dop}, etc. ~mIp'av
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 3:47 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
Perhaps you could even use {Y DopmoH X.}; it is X that makes Y opposite, as something cannot be opposite of nothing.
Isn't something already the opposite of nothing? :)
Would be interesting to know how to use this to describe antonyms. Can you treat verbs like names, and say something like:
{Dop Say' lam je.} = "Say' and lam are opposites."
Or perhaps give them "titles" such as:
{Dop Say' wot lam wot je.} = "The verb Say' is the opposite of the verb lam."
We don't really know a lot about how Klingon deals with referring to words as words. At the very least, I feel like you'd want some sort of quotation mark: {Dop "Say'" "lam" je.} (Just out of curiosity, is there some other punctuation accepted by the Klingonist community to indicate quotations besides the "? It kind of mixes in with the qaghwI'mey.) I think {tlhegh} might be preferable to {SIrgh}, considering the word
{mu'tlhegh}, though I might be reading too much into that. {mIr} would certainly make a lot of sense, as it has discrete elements. {tlhegh} is also apparently used for lines formed by people (c.f. paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 1, Stanza 9, Line 2 - chen wej tlheghmey), though it's unclear if the word incorporates the sequential aspects of a queue or just the shape of a rope.
{mIr} or possibly {mIw mIr} makes the most sense to me for a software thread. I'd be interested to know a little more about the different ways {tlhegh} and {mIr} are used metaphorically. {mIr} is used in {lupwI' mIr} "train" and {lut mIr} "series of stories", and seems to mean "related things connected sequentially". {tlhegh} is used in {mu'tlhegh} "sentence", {vIttlhegh} "proverb", and {yutlhegh} "scale, spectrum", and seems to be a bit more abstract, and isn't used as a standalone word in those metaphorical compounds. Are there any more uses of these words from canon?
Regarding punctuation, many of us use one or two angle brackets for that very reason. E.g. <<Star Trek: Discovery>> lut mIrmeyvaD tlhIngan qotlhwI'qoq 'ang NETFLIX Netflix Releases Klingon Trailer for "Star Trek: Discovery" Series (Netflix press release) The smaller guillemets, or angle quotes ( « and » ) look better but they sometimes don’t survive posting and re-posting via various email programs, showing up as alpha-numeric gibberish instead. There is another problematic example of tlhegh known: nugh tlhegh (lit. "society rope") from the KCD novelization (was it used in KCD itself?): "Pok has yet to complete the Second Rite of Ascension. In the eyes of the nugh tlhegh he is still a boy." This seems to mean received opinion or acceptable behavior. (Compare the phrase "party line" in English.) Someone once suggested that this actually refers to the line of six painstik-wielding warriors who form the gauntlet (i.e. the "River of Pain") a young Klingon must pass through during his/her nentay ceremony. As for talking about mIr and tlhegh, there isn’t much in my notes: (Okrand, HQ 5.1): The usual term for proverb is vIttlhegh, literally truth rope and formed, no doubt, by analogy with mu'tlhegh sentence or, literally, word rope. (Lieven, 9/2017): Of course, it's [lut mIr] literal translation is 'story chain' or 'chain of stories' (parallel to the lupwI' mIr, train from TNK) … Besides, it was not a message, Okrand was sitting next to me and said "do it this way"." --Voragh _______________________________________________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of nIqolay Q We don't really know a lot about how Klingon deals with referring to words as words. At the very least, I feel like you'd want some sort of quotation mark: {Dop "Say'" "lam" je.} (Just out of curiosity, is there some other punctuation accepted by the Klingonist community to indicate quotations besides the "? It kind of mixes in with the qaghwI'mey.) [….] I'd be interested to know a little more about the different ways {tlhegh} and {mIr} are used metaphorically. {mIr} is used in {lupwI' mIr} "train" and {lut mIr} "series of stories", and seems to mean "related things connected sequentially". {tlhegh} is used in {mu'tlhegh} "sentence", {vIttlhegh} "proverb", and {yutlhegh} "scale, spectrum", and seems to be a bit more abstract, and isn't used as a standalone word in those metaphorical compounds. Are there any more uses of these words from canon?
On 1/9/2018 11:32 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
There is another problematic example of *tlhegh* known: *nugh tlhegh* (lit. "society rope") from the KCD novelization (was it used in KCD itself?):
"Pok has yet to complete the Second Rite of Ascension. In the eyes of the *nugh tlhegh* he is still a boy."
This line does appear in the game: https://youtu.be/mcTGRaPTNOQ?t=29m9s The actor pronounces it something like /n//oo//g kleH//./ It does not occur in the Language Lab, which is the canonical part of KCD. The script of the game was not written or vetted by Okrand, and is not Okrandian canon (or even officially /Star Trek/ canon, for that matter). -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
The script of the game was not written or vetted by Okrand, and is not
Okrandian canon (or even officially Star Trek canon, for that matter).
That being said, he was a creative consultant on the game and contributed a lot (if not all) of the tlhIngan Hol used therein; at least the introductory monologue and everything available in the language lab. So, there is a high probability that he came up with the term {nugh tlhegh}; definitely worth asking him about. I wonder if the {nugh tlhegh} might refer to one's lineage, as during the Rite of Ascension the character takes his place in a line of warriors. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 17:46 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] new words from DSC-subtitles (with minor SPOILERS) On 1/9/2018 11:32 AM, Steven Boozer wrote: There is another problematic example of tlhegh known: nugh tlhegh (lit. "society rope") from the KCD novelization (was it used in KCD itself?): "Pok has yet to complete the Second Rite of Ascension. In the eyes of the nugh tlhegh he is still a boy." This line does appear in the game: https://youtu.be/mcTGRaPTNOQ?t=29m9s The actor pronounces it something like noog kleH. It does not occur in the Language Lab, which is the canonical part of KCD. The script of the game was not written or vetted by Okrand, and is not Okrandian canon (or even officially Star Trek canon, for that matter). -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I agree. {nugh tlhegh} is an odd phrase for a writer - hired specifically to convert someone else's script for a computer game to novel form - to have added on their own, especially without explanation. The sentence is perfectly understandable without it. Which is why it was worth mentioning when nIqolay Q asked for other known examples. --Voragh From: Felix Malmenbeck That being said, he was a creative consultant on the game and contributed a lot (if not all) of the tlhIngan Hol used therein; at least the introductory monologue and everything available in the language lab. So, there is a high probability that he came up with the term {nugh tlhegh}; definitely worth asking him about. I wonder if the {nugh tlhegh} might refer to one's lineage, as during the Rite of Ascension the character takes his place in a line of warriors. ________________________________ From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> On 1/9/2018 11:32 AM, Steven Boozer wrote: There is another problematic example of tlhegh known: nugh tlhegh (lit. "society rope") from the KCD novelization (was it used in KCD itself?): "Pok has yet to complete the Second Rite of Ascension. In the eyes of the nugh tlhegh he is still a boy." This seems to mean received opinion or acceptable behavior. (Compare the phrase "party line" in English.) Someone once suggested that this actually refers to the line of six painstik-wielding warriors who form the gauntlet (i.e. the "River of Pain") a young Klingon must pass through during his/her nentay ceremony. This line does appear in the game: https://youtu.be/mcTGRaPTNOQ?t=29m9s The actor pronounces it something like noog kleH. It does not occur in the Language Lab, which is the canonical part of KCD. The script of the game was not written or vetted by Okrand, and is not Okrandian canon (or even officially Star Trek canon, for that matter). -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (7)
-
Ed Bailey -
Felix Malmenbeck -
kechpaja -
Lieven L. Litaer -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel