For the creation of the play {mu' mu' mu'} by the Dutch theatre company URLAND that premiered on 4th of March 2020, I was asked to translate a German play into Klingon, which was partially used in their play. The play "Die Hamletmaschine" by German author Heiner Müller was written in 1977, is internationally known and has been translated into several languages. During translation work, I got help from Marc Okrand who could discuss some useful information with Maltz. Due to some copyright situations, I cannot publish the translation right now, but I do not want to keep those words hidden until publication until then, so here we go. For a clearer and more "colorful" overview, see the page at the Klingon Language wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine Body parts: == Okrand quote == {nev'ob} refers to both the "thigh" and the "upper arm" (above the elbow). Similarly, {reStav} refers to both the "shin" and the "forearm." If it's necessary to make a distinction, precede these words with {'uS} or {DeS}. {cha'neH}, when used alone, means "forearm." But when preceded by {'uS}, it means "lower part of the leg." You could also say {DeS cha'neH} for "forearm," but this would probably be used only in a context where you were talking about both the forearm and the lower leg and wanted to clarify which was which. {reStav} is "shin," meaning the front of the lower leg. (I assume "Schienbein" is "shin bone." {reStav} is more than just the bone. The only way Maltz was aware of for referring to the bone is {reStav Hom}.) {Do'ghI'} is "calf," meaning the back of the lower leg ("Wade," presumably). == Okrand quote end == Clarifying "hang": == Okrand quote == {HuS} takes an object. If your shoes are hanging on a wall it's because somebody hung them there. {HuS} is not used to mean "lynch" or "execute by hanging." That's a different word: {jIb}. (Maltz thought maybe an early form of torture or execution was hanging people by their hair, but he wasn't totally sure about this and may have just been reacting to the homophony.) And there's another word: {tlhep} "be suspended, be dangling." Use {HuS} if, for example, you hang your coat on a hook on the wall or hang sheets on a clothesline to dry. But if, say, you see a spider dangling at the bottom of one of those silk threads that spiders extrude, use {tlhep}. Or if you see a pair of shoes tied together by the laces and, for whatever reason, they're hanging by the tied-together laces from an overhead power wire, use {tlhep}. == Okrand quote end == Okrand agreed that {jIb'egh} is "suicide by hanging". Next, there was a question about a "concubine": == Okrand quote == Maltz thought the best word for this might be {lIwnal}, though maybe not: the cultural connotations are a bit different since, in Klingon culture, everything associated with a {lIwnal} lacks honor, and this is not necessarily the case for a (Terran) king's concubines or courtesans. Note that only married people could have a partner who could be considered a {lIwnal}. Also, {lIwnal} could be male or female, so if it's necessary to distinguish, say {loD lIwnal} or {be' lIwnal}. == Okrand quote end == More words: {ghenlan} - Greenland (country) {qaw'} - flip over {qaw'moH} - flip over (i.e. "make something flip over") {rIv} - split {vIrgh} - rip (up), slash, tear (up), gash {'o'nI'} - foam, froth Not new words, but combined translations: {DeSwar bIr} - refrigerator {jorchan velqa'} - stage decoration {much jech} - costume {much yaH} - stage {qab jech} - mask Transliterations: {qo'qa' qo'la'} - Coca Cola {lIyenIn} - Lenin {maw} - Mao The question for a "stage" was answered with a general statement: == Okrand quote == Any place specifically designated for the performance of a specific task (or tasks) is a {yaH}. A stage is the {yaH} for the performance of plays or, perhaps, music. A football field is the {yaH} for a football game. A laboratory is a scientist's {yaH}. And, of course, on a ship, a {yaH} is a duty station. If context isn't enough to clarify what sort of {yaH} it is, you can say things like {much yaH}, {QoQ yaH}, {tamlerQeD yaH}, etc. == Okrand quote end == There's an idiom for "kill time": {'ebmey jonHa'} Talking about a "virgin", Okrand suggested saying it literally what a virgin is: {pagh ngaghpu'bogh be'} or {not vay' ngaghpu'bogh be'} Doing so, he answered the question if {ngagh} can be used with people. And in case anyone wondered, {jach} is a good verb to describe what a {jajlo' Qa'} does. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:02 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
*During translation work, I got help from Marc Okrand who could discuss some useful information with Maltz. Due to some copyright situations, I cannot publish the translation right now, but I do not want to keep those words hidden until publication until then, so here we go.*
majQa'!
Transliterations: {qo'qa' qo'la'} - Coca Cola
Not to be confused with *{qoq'a' qo'la'} - Borg Queen 😉 ~Melanie Roney Sent from my Palm Prē On Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 16:02 Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
For the creation of the play {mu' mu' mu'} by the Dutch theatre company URLAND that premiered on 4th of March 2020, I was asked to translate a German play into Klingon, which was partially used in their play. The play "Die Hamletmaschine" by German author Heiner Müller was written in 1977, is internationally known and has been translated into several languages.
During translation work, I got help from Marc Okrand who could discuss some useful information with Maltz. Due to some copyright situations, I cannot publish the translation right now, but I do not want to keep those words hidden until publication until then, so here we go.
For a clearer and more "colorful" overview, see the page at the Klingon Language wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
Body parts: == Okrand quote == {nev'ob} refers to both the "thigh" and the "upper arm" (above the elbow). Similarly, {reStav} refers to both the "shin" and the "forearm." If it's necessary to make a distinction, precede these words with {'uS} or {DeS}.
{cha'neH}, when used alone, means "forearm." But when preceded by {'uS}, it means "lower part of the leg." You could also say {DeS cha'neH} for "forearm," but this would probably be used only in a context where you were talking about both the forearm and the lower leg and wanted to clarify which was which.
{reStav} is "shin," meaning the front of the lower leg. (I assume "Schienbein" is "shin bone." {reStav} is more than just the bone. The only way Maltz was aware of for referring to the bone is {reStav Hom}.)
{Do'ghI'} is "calf," meaning the back of the lower leg ("Wade," presumably). == Okrand quote end ==
Clarifying "hang": == Okrand quote == {HuS} takes an object. If your shoes are hanging on a wall it's because somebody hung them there.
{HuS} is not used to mean "lynch" or "execute by hanging." That's a different word: {jIb}. (Maltz thought maybe an early form of torture or execution was hanging people by their hair, but he wasn't totally sure about this and may have just been reacting to the homophony.)
And there's another word: {tlhep} "be suspended, be dangling." Use {HuS} if, for example, you hang your coat on a hook on the wall or hang sheets on a clothesline to dry. But if, say, you see a spider dangling at the bottom of one of those silk threads that spiders extrude, use {tlhep}. Or if you see a pair of shoes tied together by the laces and, for whatever reason, they're hanging by the tied-together laces from an overhead power wire, use {tlhep}. == Okrand quote end ==
Okrand agreed that {jIb'egh} is "suicide by hanging".
Next, there was a question about a "concubine": == Okrand quote == Maltz thought the best word for this might be {lIwnal}, though maybe not: the cultural connotations are a bit different since, in Klingon culture, everything associated with a {lIwnal} lacks honor, and this is not necessarily the case for a (Terran) king's concubines or courtesans. Note that only married people could have a partner who could be considered a {lIwnal}. Also, {lIwnal} could be male or female, so if it's necessary to distinguish, say {loD lIwnal} or {be' lIwnal}. == Okrand quote end ==
More words: {ghenlan} - Greenland (country) {qaw'} - flip over {qaw'moH} - flip over (i.e. "make something flip over") {rIv} - split {vIrgh} - rip (up), slash, tear (up), gash {'o'nI'} - foam, froth
Not new words, but combined translations: {DeSwar bIr} - refrigerator {jorchan velqa'} - stage decoration {much jech} - costume {much yaH} - stage {qab jech} - mask
Transliterations: {qo'qa' qo'la'} - Coca Cola {lIyenIn} - Lenin {maw} - Mao
The question for a "stage" was answered with a general statement: == Okrand quote == Any place specifically designated for the performance of a specific task (or tasks) is a {yaH}. A stage is the {yaH} for the performance of plays or, perhaps, music. A football field is the {yaH} for a football game. A laboratory is a scientist's {yaH}. And, of course, on a ship, a {yaH} is a duty station. If context isn't enough to clarify what sort of {yaH} it is, you can say things like {much yaH}, {QoQ yaH}, {tamlerQeD yaH}, etc. == Okrand quote end ==
There's an idiom for "kill time": {'ebmey jonHa'}
Talking about a "virgin", Okrand suggested saying it literally what a virgin is: {pagh ngaghpu'bogh be'} or {not vay' ngaghpu'bogh be'}
Doing so, he answered the question if {ngagh} can be used with people.
And in case anyone wondered, {jach} is a good verb to describe what a {jajlo' Qa'} does.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
maj! I'm a little confused by one small thing. What's the difference between a {cha'neH} and a {DeS reStav}? Does {cha'neH} include the whole forearm, whereas {DeS reStav} only applies to one side? Or are they synonymous? Also, some puns: {Do'ghI'} - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dogie {rIv} - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rive#English {jIb} - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gibbet {'on'I'} - perhaps from the "-ino" on "cappucino" and "raktajino", drinks with foamy milk On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:02 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
For the creation of the play {mu' mu' mu'} by the Dutch theatre company URLAND that premiered on 4th of March 2020, I was asked to translate a German play into Klingon, which was partially used in their play. The play "Die Hamletmaschine" by German author Heiner Müller was written in 1977, is internationally known and has been translated into several languages.
During translation work, I got help from Marc Okrand who could discuss some useful information with Maltz. Due to some copyright situations, I cannot publish the translation right now, but I do not want to keep those words hidden until publication until then, so here we go.
For a clearer and more "colorful" overview, see the page at the Klingon Language wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
Body parts: == Okrand quote == {nev'ob} refers to both the "thigh" and the "upper arm" (above the elbow). Similarly, {reStav} refers to both the "shin" and the "forearm." If it's necessary to make a distinction, precede these words with {'uS} or {DeS}.
{cha'neH}, when used alone, means "forearm." But when preceded by {'uS}, it means "lower part of the leg." You could also say {DeS cha'neH} for "forearm," but this would probably be used only in a context where you were talking about both the forearm and the lower leg and wanted to clarify which was which.
{reStav} is "shin," meaning the front of the lower leg. (I assume "Schienbein" is "shin bone." {reStav} is more than just the bone. The only way Maltz was aware of for referring to the bone is {reStav Hom}.)
{Do'ghI'} is "calf," meaning the back of the lower leg ("Wade," presumably). == Okrand quote end ==
Clarifying "hang": == Okrand quote == {HuS} takes an object. If your shoes are hanging on a wall it's because somebody hung them there.
{HuS} is not used to mean "lynch" or "execute by hanging." That's a different word: {jIb}. (Maltz thought maybe an early form of torture or execution was hanging people by their hair, but he wasn't totally sure about this and may have just been reacting to the homophony.)
And there's another word: {tlhep} "be suspended, be dangling." Use {HuS} if, for example, you hang your coat on a hook on the wall or hang sheets on a clothesline to dry. But if, say, you see a spider dangling at the bottom of one of those silk threads that spiders extrude, use {tlhep}. Or if you see a pair of shoes tied together by the laces and, for whatever reason, they're hanging by the tied-together laces from an overhead power wire, use {tlhep}. == Okrand quote end ==
Okrand agreed that {jIb'egh} is "suicide by hanging".
Next, there was a question about a "concubine": == Okrand quote == Maltz thought the best word for this might be {lIwnal}, though maybe not: the cultural connotations are a bit different since, in Klingon culture, everything associated with a {lIwnal} lacks honor, and this is not necessarily the case for a (Terran) king's concubines or courtesans. Note that only married people could have a partner who could be considered a {lIwnal}. Also, {lIwnal} could be male or female, so if it's necessary to distinguish, say {loD lIwnal} or {be' lIwnal}. == Okrand quote end ==
More words: {ghenlan} - Greenland (country) {qaw'} - flip over {qaw'moH} - flip over (i.e. "make something flip over") {rIv} - split {vIrgh} - rip (up), slash, tear (up), gash {'o'nI'} - foam, froth
Not new words, but combined translations: {DeSwar bIr} - refrigerator {jorchan velqa'} - stage decoration {much jech} - costume {much yaH} - stage {qab jech} - mask
Transliterations: {qo'qa' qo'la'} - Coca Cola {lIyenIn} - Lenin {maw} - Mao
The question for a "stage" was answered with a general statement: == Okrand quote == Any place specifically designated for the performance of a specific task (or tasks) is a {yaH}. A stage is the {yaH} for the performance of plays or, perhaps, music. A football field is the {yaH} for a football game. A laboratory is a scientist's {yaH}. And, of course, on a ship, a {yaH} is a duty station. If context isn't enough to clarify what sort of {yaH} it is, you can say things like {much yaH}, {QoQ yaH}, {tamlerQeD yaH}, etc. == Okrand quote end ==
There's an idiom for "kill time": {'ebmey jonHa'}
Talking about a "virgin", Okrand suggested saying it literally what a virgin is: {pagh ngaghpu'bogh be'} or {not vay' ngaghpu'bogh be'}
Doing so, he answered the question if {ngagh} can be used with people.
And in case anyone wondered, {jach} is a good verb to describe what a {jajlo' Qa'} does.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:30 PM nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, some puns: {Do'ghI'} - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dogie {rIv} - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rive#English {jIb} - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gibbet {'on'I'} - perhaps from the "-ino" on "cappucino" and "raktajino", drinks with foamy milk
toH! cha' latlh vItu'pu'. {reStav} - the Hebrew letter "shin" comes between the letters "resh" and "tav" {nev'ob} - the Dutch word "boven" means "above", "bovenbeen" and "bovenarm" appear to be words for "thigh" and "upper arm" in Dutch
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 04:31, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
maj! I'm a little confused by one small thing. What's the difference between a {cha'neH} and a {DeS reStav}? Does {cha'neH} include the whole forearm, whereas {DeS reStav} only applies to one side? Or are they synonymous?
I also read it as implying that {cha'neH} is the whole forearm whereas {DeS reStav} applies only to one side, but it's not clear to me which side, since the elbow and knee joints bend in opposite directions relative to the front of the body. How did others understand it? -- De'vID
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 4:31 AM nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
maj! I'm a little confused by one small thing. What's the difference between a {cha'neH} and a {DeS reStav}? Does {cha'neH} include the whole forearm, whereas {DeS reStav} only applies to one side? Or are they synonymous?
During this year's Saarbrücken qepHom'a' (at which I was not present), I asked Lieven to convey to Dr. Okrand a request to clarify the difference between {[DeS] reStav} and {cha'neH}. Dr. Okrand's answer came to me via Lieven, and is quoted below: --- begin quote ---
It works like this:
For legs: Entire lower part of the leg: {’uS cha’neH} Front of lower part of the leg (shin): {’uS reStav} Back of the lower part of the leg (calf): {Do’ghI’} Entire upper part of the leg (thigh): {’uS nev’ob} Unless specificity is called for, {’uS} is generally left out of {’uS reStav} and {’uS nev’ob}; even when the context is clear, however, {’uS} is seldom if ever left out of {’uS cha’neH}. {’uS} tends to be used with {Do’ghI’} only if a distinction or comparison is being made with {DeS Do’ghI’} (see below). For arms: Entire lower part of the arm (forearm): {cha’neH} Outer part of the forearm (extending from the back of the hand to outer part of the elbow): {DeS reStav} Inner part of the forearm (extending from the palm to the elbow pit [{DeS tutren}]): {DeS Do’ghI’} Entire upper part of the arm: {DeS nev’ob} Unless specificity is called for, {DeS} is generally left out of {DeS reStav} and {DeS nev’ob}; even when the context is clear, however, {DeS} is seldom if ever left out of {DeS Do’ghI’}. {DeS} tends to be used with {cha’neH} only if a distinction or comparison is being made with {’uS cha’neH}. Glossing {reStav} as “forearm” is a result of a mismatch between English and Klingon. Since English has no everyday word corresponding to either {DeS reStav} or {DeS Do’ghI’}, in a nontechnical conversation, these would both probably be translated into English as simply “forearm.” If one pointed to one’s {DeS reStav} and asked “what is this called in English?” the most likely answer would be “forearm.” Likewise for {DeS Do’ghI’}. The specificity is in Klingon only. --- end quote --- -- De'vID
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 at 22:02, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Body parts: == Okrand quote == {nev'ob} refers to both the "thigh" and the "upper arm" (above the elbow). Similarly, {reStav} refers to both the "shin" and the "forearm." If it's necessary to make a distinction, precede these words with {'uS} or {DeS}.
Does {reStav} refer to the front (facing front of the body) side of the shin and forearm, or the side exterior to the joint (front of the lower leg, but back of the lower arm)?
{cha'neH}, when used alone, means "forearm." But when preceded by {'uS}, it means "lower part of the leg." You could also say {DeS cha'neH} for "forearm," but this would probably be used only in a context where you were talking about both the forearm and the lower leg and wanted to clarify which was which.
{reStav} is "shin," meaning the front of the lower leg. (I assume "Schienbein" is "shin bone." {reStav} is more than just the bone. The only way Maltz was aware of for referring to the bone is {reStav Hom}.)
So, to be clear, {cha'neH} refers to sum of {reStav} and {Do'ghI'}? {Do'ghI'} is "calf," meaning the back of the lower leg ("Wade," presumably).
Is there a {DeS Do'ghI'} and if so, what specifically does it refer to?
== Okrand quote end ==
Clarifying "hang": == Okrand quote == {HuS} takes an object. If your shoes are hanging on a wall it's because somebody hung them there.
{HuS} is not used to mean "lynch" or "execute by hanging." That's a different word: {jIb}. (Maltz thought maybe an early form of torture or execution was hanging people by their hair, but he wasn't totally sure about this and may have just been reacting to the homophony.)
Hang on... Does {jIb} primarily mean "lynch" or "execute by hanging"? I assume the latter since this is being mentioned in connection with {HuS}, but "lynch" just means extrajudicial execution by a mob, not necessarily hanging. (Perhaps the two are equated in American culture?)
And there's another word: {tlhep} "be suspended, be dangling." Use {HuS} if, for example, you hang your coat on a hook on the wall or hang sheets on a clothesline to dry. But if, say, you see a spider dangling at the bottom of one of those silk threads that spiders extrude, use {tlhep}. Or if you see a pair of shoes tied together by the laces and, for whatever reason, they're hanging by the tied-together laces from an overhead power wire, use {tlhep}.
Okay, but what if your shoes are hanging by tied laces to dry on a clothesline next to some sheets? In that case, has it been {HuS}'d but isn't {tlhep}ing, is it considered to {tlhep} and not was not {HuS}'d even if someone had put it up there, or is it both? What about a pair of winter gloves hung up to dry? What if you threw some sheets up on a power line? I'm not being pedantic, I genuinely don't understand the distinction between shoes and other clothing or whatever exact distinction is being drawn here between hanging and dangling.
== Okrand quote end ==
Okrand agreed that {jIb'egh} is "suicide by hanging".
Next, there was a question about a "concubine": == Okrand quote == Maltz thought the best word for this might be {lIwnal}, though maybe not: the cultural connotations are a bit different since, in Klingon culture, everything associated with a {lIwnal} lacks honor, and this is not necessarily the case for a (Terran) king's concubines or courtesans. Note that only married people could have a partner who could be considered a {lIwnal}. Also, {lIwnal} could be male or female, so if it's necessary to distinguish, say {loD lIwnal} or {be' lIwnal}. == Okrand quote end ==
More words: {ghenlan} - Greenland (country) {qaw'} - flip over {qaw'moH} - flip over (i.e. "make something flip over") {rIv} - split
(This is clarified in the linked page to be transitive, as in "the ax split the watermelon", not "the watermelon split in half".)
{vIrgh} - rip (up), slash, tear (up), gash {'o'nI'} - foam, froth
Is this a verb or a noun?
Not new words, but combined translations: {DeSwar bIr} - refrigerator {jorchan velqa'} - stage decoration {much jech} - costume {much yaH} - stage {qab jech} - mask
Transliterations: {qo'qa' qo'la'} - Coca Cola {lIyenIn} - Lenin {maw} - Mao
This entry is going to be annoying for me as I have to add it in Hong Kong Chinese to {boQwI'}, but nobody refers to Mao as just "Mao". (That is, for the Chinese entry to make sense, it should be the transliteration of Mao Zedong/Mao Tse-Tung, not just "Mao".) Anyway, I wonder if someone is going to complain that {boQwI'} now contains the names of Communists but not famous people associated with other political ideologies. (If you think I'm kidding, you have no idea how many weirdos there are on the Internet. Better throw in the names of America's Founding Fathers now.)
The question for a "stage" was answered with a general statement: == Okrand quote == Any place specifically designated for the performance of a specific task (or tasks) is a {yaH}. A stage is the {yaH} for the performance of plays or, perhaps, music. A football field is the {yaH} for a football game. A laboratory is a scientist's {yaH}. And, of course, on a ship, a {yaH} is a duty station. If context isn't enough to clarify what sort of {yaH} it is, you can say things like {much yaH}, {QoQ yaH}, {tamlerQeD yaH}, etc. == Okrand quote end ==
Is a {tamlerQeD yaH} the entirety of a {tamlertej}'s {Qulpa'}, or just the table/desk/station in the {tamlertej}'s immediate work area? I assume the latter since that corresponds to a "duty station" on a ship, but the other examples suggest a {yaH} could cover a much bigger area or concept.
There's an idiom for "kill time": {'ebmey jonHa'}
Talking about a "virgin", Okrand suggested saying it literally what a virgin is: {pagh ngaghpu'bogh be'} or {not vay' ngaghpu'bogh be'}
Doing so, he answered the question if {ngagh} can be used with people.
And in case anyone wondered, {jach} is a good verb to describe what a {jajlo' Qa'} does.
-- De'vID
Am 31.03.2020 um 11:10 schrieb De'vID:
Does {reStav} refer to the front (facing front of the body) side of the shin and forearm, or the side exterior to the joint (front of the lower leg, but back of the lower arm)?
For the leg, it is clear: When you look at me, face to face, and I kick your leg, I touch the {reStav}.
So, to be clear, {cha'neH} refers to sum of {reStav} and {Do'ghI'}?
That's how I see it too, yes.
Is there a {DeS Do'ghI'} and if so, what specifically does it refer to?
He did not talk about it, so I guess there is no such thing. Or we don't know yet. At this moment, I would only list it as "calf, back of leg", not more. (Even in English, a "arm calf" does not make sense, but that doesnot count in Kingon anyway)
Hang on... Does {jIb} primarily mean "lynch" or "execute by hanging"?
Since we were talking about the verb "hang", the focus lies more on that verb. Okrand also confirmed {jIb'egh} for "hang yourself", and that would be strange to say "lynch yourself".
Okay, but what if [...] I'm not being pedantic, I genuinely don't understand the distinction between shoes and other clothing or whatever exact distinction is being drawn here between hanging and dangling.
It was just a random example to make the difference, which is quite simple: hang, transitive = HuS hang, intransitive = tlhep
(This is clarified in the linked page to be transitive, as in "the ax split the watermelon", not "the watermelon split in half".)
Yes.
{'o'nI'} - foam, froth
Is this a verb or a noun?
Definitely a noun. It's like the foam you see on a cappuccino, on a beer, in the water a shoreside, in the bathtub etc. A summary of many bubbles.
This entry is going to be annoying for me as I have to add it in Hong Kong Chinese to {boQwI'}, but nobody refers to Mao as just "Mao". (That is, for the Chinese entry to make sense, it should be the transliteration of Mao Zedong/Mao Tse-Tung, not just "Mao".)
Maybe you can add a note that this is an English transcription, or - in the game - Klingons have heard this name from a English speaker not being aware that the original name is different.
other political ideologies. (If you think I'm kidding, you have no idea how many weirdos there are on the Internet. Better throw in the names of America's Founding Fathers now.)
It just originated from the play being translated, which used these names. Marx is also in there (even with a long quote), but Okrand gave no transpcriptopn for that, I made it myself, so it's not canon.
Is a {tamlerQeD yaH} the entirety of a {tamlertej}'s {Qulpa'}, or just the table/desk/station in the {tamlertej}'s immediate work area? I assume the latter since that corresponds to a "duty station" on a ship, but the other examples suggest a {yaH} could cover a much bigger area or concept.
I did not give the translation because Okrand also did not. But I agree with what you said. Compare the {jonSeH yaH} with the {jonta' pa'}. I think it's okay to assume that the {yaH} is part of the {pa'}, but on the same time, {yaH} could also refer to the entire working place (like "I'm at the office", I'd say yaH). Talking about size, like the football field, this is large, but includes all of the working area, and it'S not a room. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 12:35, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Is there a {DeS Do'ghI'} and if so, what specifically does it refer to?
He did not talk about it, so I guess there is no such thing. Or we don't know yet. At this moment, I would only list it as "calf, back of leg", not more. (Even in English, a "arm calf" does not make sense, but that doesnot count in Kingon anyway)
But in English, an "arm knee" doesn't make sense either, but we know it's an elbow. If someone didn't know English and described something which is the analogue of the calf, but on the arm, I'd understand it as the bicep.
It was just a random example to make the difference, which is quite simple:
hang, transitive = HuS hang, intransitive = tlhep
So once you {HuS} something, its state is {tlhep}? But something which is {tlhep} wasn't necessarily {HuS}'d?
{'o'nI'} - foam, froth
Is this a verb or a noun?
Definitely a noun. It's like the foam you see on a cappuccino, on a beer, in the water a shoreside, in the bathtub etc. A summary of many bubbles.
Okay. In English, "foam" and "froth" could also be verbs, so it's good to clarify this.
Is a {tamlerQeD yaH} the entirety of a {tamlertej}'s {Qulpa'}, or just the table/desk/station in the {tamlertej}'s immediate work area? I assume the latter since that corresponds to a "duty station" on a ship, but the other examples suggest a {yaH} could cover a much bigger area or concept.
I did not give the translation because Okrand also did not.
But I agree with what you said. Compare the {jonSeH yaH} with the {jonta' pa'}. I think it's okay to assume that the {yaH} is part of the {pa'}, but on the same time, {yaH} could also refer to the entire working place (like "I'm at the office", I'd say yaH).
Thinking about this some more, on a ship or station with a {Qulpa'}, you could have multiple {yaH} within it corresponding to the various sciences. That is, you could have a {tamlerQeD yaH} and a {HapQeD yaH} and a {HovQeD yaH} and so on, within the same {Qulpa'}. -- De'vID
Am 31.03.2020 um 15:30 schrieb De'vID:
So once you {HuS} something, its state is {tlhep}? But something which is {tlhep} wasn't necessarily {HuS}'d?
Correctly. Like an apple at the tree. Or Okrand's example: A spider on its self produced string. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:11 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Does {reStav} refer to the front (facing front of the body) side of the shin and forearm, or the side exterior to the joint (front of the lower leg, but back of the lower arm)?
I'd say the closest analogue to the shin on the arm is the back of the forearm. Like the shin, it's "bonier" (i.e. less padded with muscle, though not as bony as the shin), it faces more-or-less forward when you're standing in a "neutral" position, the digits on the associated appendage curl away from it, and when you bend the limb it's on the outside of the angle. (Though Maltz might have other ideas.)
Hang on... Does {jIb} primarily mean "lynch" or "execute by hanging"? I assume the latter since this is being mentioned in connection with {HuS}, but "lynch" just means extrajudicial execution by a mob, not necessarily hanging. (Perhaps the two are equated in American culture?)
"Lynching" often has connotations that the mob is going to hang their victim, possibly influenced from depictions of the Wild West. "String 'im up!" and so on.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 at 22:02, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
{much jech} - costume
But only in the context of stage plays? For example, not a Halloween costume (unless there's a Halloween play involved)?
{qab jech} - mask
Just for disguise, not protection, right? So not a surgical mask or a N95 respirator mask, for example? -- De'vID
On Mar 31, 2020, at 5:36 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 at 22:02, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
{much jech} - costume
But only in the context of stage plays? For example, not a Halloween costume (unless there's a Halloween play involved)?
I would be comfortable using it for stage plays or street plays or some sort of pageant. Mummers, costumed parade float characters, maybe Carnaval dancers; all wear a {much jech}. Some cosplayers go so deeply and consistently into character that I would not balk at applying it to what they’re wearing as well (I'm thinking especially of Moxie Magnus). -- ghunchu'wI'
Am 31.03.2020 um 11:36 schrieb De'vID:> {much jech} - costume
But only in the context of stage plays? For example, not a Halloween costume (unless there's a Halloween play involved)?
I've always thought that a halloween costume is just a {jech}. The difference is that a {much jech} is used on stage, so roughly a "theatre costume". People would not run around in a {much jech}, unless they want to {much} something.
{qab jech} - mask
Just for disguise, not protection, right? So not a surgical mask or a N95 respirator mask, for example?
Well, Okrand didn't say that, but {jech} implies to me "disguise", and I doubt a surgeon wants to disguise. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
Does HuS equal tlhepmoH? lay'tel SIvten On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 1:19 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 31.03.2020 um 11:36 schrieb De'vID:> {much jech} - costume
But only in the context of stage plays? For example, not a Halloween costume (unless there's a Halloween play involved)?
I've always thought that a halloween costume is just a {jech}. The difference is that a {much jech} is used on stage, so roughly a "theatre costume". People would not run around in a {much jech}, unless they want to {much} something.
{qab jech} - mask
Just for disguise, not protection, right? So not a surgical mask or a N95 respirator mask, for example?
Well, Okrand didn't say that, but {jech} implies to me "disguise", and I doubt a surgeon wants to disguise.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:44 PM MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Does HuS equal tlhepmoH?
lay'tel SIvten
I'm not sure they'd be quite equal. If I knock someone off of a piece of scaffolding and they end up dangling from their safety cable, I feel like {tlhepmoH} would make sense for what I did, but {HuS} wouldn't.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:44 PM MorphemeAddict wrote:
Does HuS equal tlhepmoH?
Am 31.03.2020 um 21:59 schrieb nIqolay Q:
I'm not sure they'd be quite equal. If I knock someone off of a piece of scaffolding and they end up dangling from their safety cable, I feel like {tlhepmoH} would make sense for what I did, but {HuS} wouldn't.
That's a wonderful answer. Indeed, not everything that is {thlep}ing has been {HuS}'d; think of the spider or the apple on a tree. But if you {HuS} somthing, it will {tlhep} (unless you {HuSHa'}). And if a person is {jIb}'ed, they will certainly also {tlhep}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 21:19, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
{qab jech} - mask
Just for disguise, not protection, right? So not a surgical mask or a N95 respirator mask, for example?
Well, Okrand didn't say that, but {jech} implies to me "disguise", and I doubt a surgeon wants to disguise.
In case you didn't notice, everyone on Earth is talking about masks and respirators, so it would be good to know the correct terminology for this. -- De'vID
Am 01.04.2020 um 05:43 schrieb De'vID:
In case you didn't notice, everyone on Earth is talking about masks and respirators, so it would be good to know the correct terminology for this.
Yes, that is true. But it was not the case during that translation work, so nobody was even thinking about a surgical mask at that time. It was just "the actors take of their mask", so a {qab jech} is a costume mask in the first place. But I'll try to forward this to Maltz and see what happens. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
Most of these are well explained, but one word gives me pause. On Mar 30, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
{qaw'} - flip over {qaw'moH} - flip over (i.e. "make something flip over")
In the demonstration you gave in the video interview by DeSDu', it looked like you were showing an action I would define as “*tip* over”. The object started basically in a vertical orientation and ended up horizontal after being pushed. It rotated through only a quarter of a circle. Was that the meaning you used in the translation? Or was your physical example not quite indicative of the true sense of the word? If a playing card is flat on a table, with the suit and rank facing down and hidden, do I {qaw'moH} it to reveal it? Is {qaw'moH} what I do to a pancake or meat patty halfway through cooking it? Those would definitely be “flip over”. It’s a 180° rotation. Or is {qaw'} what a domino does after I balance it on an end and tap it sideways to make it fall? Do I {qaw'moH} an outhouse or a Porta-Potty? That would be “tip over”, a 90° rotation. -- ghunchu'wI'
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:57 PM Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
Or is {qaw'} what a domino does after I balance it on an end and tap it sideways to make it fall? Do I {qaw'moH} an outhouse or a Porta-Potty? That would be “tip over”, a 90° rotation.
The possible pun on cow tipping suggests MO might have thought the verb was meant to include "tip over".
Am 31.03.2020 um 20:57 schrieb Alan Anderson:
{qaw'} - flip over {qaw'moH} - flip over (i.e. "make something flip over")
Was that the meaning you used in the translation? Or was your physical example not quite indicative of the true sense of the word?
That is a actually a good question, and I was not aware of a difference between "flip" over and "tip" over. I asked exactly this:
kick over, flip. In the text, some rebels flip over cars on the street. This verb could certainly also work for making a glass fall, or a chair, or a big box kicked away, or anything falling from a vertical position into a horizontal position. --> I'll use {pummoH}, uyfsb.
Okrand answered:
Probably {qaw'} "flip over" or {qaw'moH} would be better here.
So if you take my question as part of the definition, it's the 90° answer. BTW, for 180°, I'd use {yoymoH}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 21:13, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 31.03.2020 um 20:57 schrieb Alan Anderson:
{qaw'} - flip over {qaw'moH} - flip over (i.e. "make something flip over")
Was that the meaning you used in the translation? Or was your physical example not quite indicative of the true sense of the word?
That is a actually a good question, and I was not aware of a difference between "flip" over and "tip" over.
I asked exactly this:
kick over, flip. In the text, some rebels flip over cars on the street. This verb could certainly also work for making a glass fall, or a chair, or a big box kicked away, or anything falling from a vertical position into a horizontal position. --> I'll use {pummoH}, uyfsb.
What is "uyfsb"?
Okrand answered:
Probably {qaw'} "flip over" or {qaw'moH} would be better here.
Based on your question, "tip over" does look like a better English gloss. -- De'vID
Am 01.04.2020 um 05:47 schrieb De'vID:
What is "uyfsb"?
That's a kind of insider joke. For everything I asked for, I gave an option, saying "I will use X for that, until you find something better".
Okrand answered: > Probably {qaw'} "flip over" or {qaw'moH} would be better here.
Based on your question, "tip over" does look like a better English gloss.
I think so too. I've changed the entry at the wiki as well, but I'll ask Okrand too. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
Thirty-some years ago, I was a live-in volunteer at a place called Innisfree Village. It was a live-in facility on a 300 acre farm for mentally handicapped adults and those who took care of them. I’ll let you guess which one I was. It was started by a German man named Heinz Kramp (pronounced “crump”) who grew up selected for training as part of the Hitler Youth program. Being a kid at the time, he didn’t understand what he was being pulled into. As an adult, he accepted the burden of ignorantly being part of something horrible, and so he came to America and got a green card, but never gave up his German citizenship, because he said he knew people who had immigrated to America and said, “Yes, those Germans did horrible things, but I’m an American,” and he wanted instead to say, “Hitler was a German and he did those horrible things, and I am also a German and here are the good things I’m doing.” He told stories about, as a youth, working on a farm. He would get paid more if the cows he cared for looked content. If they were lying on the ground, they were interpreted to be more content, though cows are excellently capable of sleeping while standing up. Seeking that pay bonus, he and his fellow workers (also kids) figured out that given the way that cow legs bend (front legs knees bend forward and what look like back knees but are biologically closer to ankles bend backwards) that two guys could loop ropes inside the standing-sleeping cow’s legs and with one kid in front and the other kid in back, and they could pull and the cow would fall straight down, wake up, look around, dazed, and then go back to sleep without bothering to stand back up. The kids could pull the ropes from under the cow and move on to the next cow. This doesn’t involve 90º roll, but is similar enough to the sport of cow tipping, which is somewhat meaner; walking up to a sleeping-standing cow and pushing it over (and usually running away, leaving the startled cow, floundering on the ground). charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 1, 2020, at 3:02 AM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 01.04.2020 um 05:47 schrieb De'vID:
What is "uyfsb"?
That's a kind of insider joke. For everything I asked for, I gave an option, saying "I will use X for that, until you find something better".
Okrand answered: > Probably {qaw'} "flip over" or {qaw'moH} would be better here.
Based on your question, "tip over" does look like a better English gloss.
I think so too. I've changed the entry at the wiki as well, but I'll ask Okrand too.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 20:57, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
If a playing card is flat on a table, with the suit and rank facing down and hidden, do I {qaw'moH} it to reveal it? Is {qaw'moH} what I do to a pancake or meat patty halfway through cooking it? Those would definitely be “flip over”. It’s a 180° rotation.
Or is {qaw'} what a domino does after I balance it on an end and tap it sideways to make it fall? Do I {qaw'moH} an outhouse or a Porta-Potty? That would be “tip over”, a 90° rotation.
Why not both? 'echlet vIqaw'moHDI', wa'vatlh chorghmaH law lID. puchpa' qachHom vIqaw'moHDI', HutmaH law lID. -- De'vID
Am 01.04.2020 um 05:55 schrieb De'vID:
Why not both?
I also thought it may be both, but what about {yoymoH}? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:04, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 01.04.2020 um 05:55 schrieb De'vID:
Why not both?
I also thought it may be both, but what about {yoymoH}?
Different emphasis? To {yoymoH} is to cause something to be upside down, focusing on the final state. To {qaw'moH} (if I understand it correctly) is to apply a force to something to cause it to move away from its currently stable orientation. When you {qaw'moH} a chair by kicking it, it does not normally become {yoy}. Maybe {leDchoH quS rav je}. When you {qaw'moH} a playing card, does it become {yoy} or {Dop}? I'm thinking that one axis is {yoy} and one is {Dop}, but I'm not sure which is which. (If you have a card face down on the table, you can flip it to reveal the face. If you have a card face up on the table, you can rotate it so that it faces the player sitting opposite from you. This doesn't matter so much for the standard deck of playing cards, but might matter for card games where orientation indicates the card's state. I *think* the former is {DopmoH} and the latter is {yoymoH}, but it could easily be the other way.) -- De'vID
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 5:36 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
When you {qaw'moH} a playing card, does it become {yoy} or {Dop}? I'm thinking that one axis is {yoy} and one is {Dop}, but I'm not sure which is which. (If you have a card face down on the table, you can flip it to reveal the face. If you have a card face up on the table, you can rotate it so that it faces the player sitting opposite from you. This doesn't matter so much for the standard deck of playing cards, but might matter for card games where orientation indicates the card's state.
{lI'bej Sovvetlh, <'IDnar: ghom chaH> 'echletHom Quj Damugh DaneHchugh...}
participants (8)
-
Alan Anderson -
De'vID -
Lawrence M. Schoen -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Melanie Roney -
MorphemeAddict -
nIqolay Q -
Will Martin