Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ? mop qIj
In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles. The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it. I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once. On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ?
mop qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Interesting.. Does it have horns and climb mountains as well ? mop qIjqu' On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 8:00 PM, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles.
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it.
I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once.
On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ?
mop qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Monday 25 Jul 2016 20:10:02 mayqel qunenoS wrote:
Interesting.. Does it have horns and climb mountains as well ?
No idea, but where the monastery at boreth is, it looks pretty mountainous. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Boreth
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but
by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand
vetted the new Klingon words in it.
According to the author (Keith R.A. DeCandido), Marc Okrand only vetted the glossary for "Diplomatic Implausibility". The glossary for "Honor Bound" was presumably vetted by 'angghal or somebody else from the KLI. Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/91641513691459584 Also, according to DeCandido, the bolmaq is more similar to a hyena than a sheep. I believe I asked this question in connection with the Minecraft translation. Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/219789081108946944 There is a creature known to Klingons that is called a "Degebian mountain goat", which is an eight-legged creature native to Degeb IV which incredibly good at climbing. I don't suppose that helps much with translations, however. The minn'hor is a beast of burden (similar to cattle), the milk of which is used to make cheese. I wrote a summary of Klingon-related animals I knew of a few years back (which unfortunately I've lost the original file for, so I can't update it without quite some bit of work; I will however make an effort to enter all relevant entries into the Extended Corpus, which I'm sorry to say I've been insufficiently diligent in updating). Here is the document: http://people.kth.se/~felixm/Klingon+animals.pdf I see that I accidentally described the Degebian mountain goat as quadrupetal [sic], which is wrong both in fact and in spelling. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 19:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles. The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it. I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once. On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ? mop qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
At qepa, ghunchuwi and I were reading aloud to each other from Green Eggs, just translating on the fly. When we got to the page with the goat, we just left it at goat. Its an Earth creature. It has a shape, an odour, a set of behaviours, a history in literature and a whole raft of connotations. Why would you want to substitute another animal that cant possibly be the same? You dont find it necessary to change out the targs in Klingon stories for some kind of Earth animal, do you? Why do the same if you want a goat. If what you really really want is an animal that is like a goat in every way except that it is native to QonoS then tera goat rurchubogh QonoS HaDIbaHe oH. Maybe when a Klingon says goat, its going to come out a bit like qot or ghot. The latter will go nicely with the fact that the English word for goatHom is the same as the English word for puq. Stop rebuilding the Klingon world to make it more like yours. Its like eating at McDonalds while on vacation in France. pItlh. From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of Felix Malmenbeck Sent: July 25, 2016 11:05 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but
by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand
vetted the new Klingon words in it.
According to the author (Keith R.A. DeCandido), Marc Okrand only vetted the glossary for "Diplomatic Implausibility". The glossary for "Honor Bound" was presumably vetted by 'angghal or somebody else from the KLI. Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/91641513691459584 Also, according to DeCandido, the bolmaq is more similar to a hyena than a sheep. I believe I asked this question in connection with the Minecraft translation. Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/219789081108946944 There is a creature known to Klingons that is called a "Degebian mountain goat", which is an eight-legged creature native to Degeb IV which incredibly good at climbing. I don't suppose that helps much with translations, however. The minn'hor is a beast of burden (similar to cattle), the milk of which is used to make cheese. I wrote a summary of Klingon-related animals I knew of a few years back (which unfortunately I've lost the original file for, so I can't update it without quite some bit of work; I will however make an effort to enter all relevant entries into the Extended Corpus, which I'm sorry to say I've been insufficiently diligent in updating). Here is the document: http://people.kth.se/~felixm/Klingon+animals.pdf I see that I accidentally described the Degebian mountain goat as quadrupetal [sic], which is wrong both in fact and in spelling. _____ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 19:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles. The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it. I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once. On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote: Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ? mop qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Qov:
Stop rebuilding the Klingon world to make it more like yours. It’s like eating at McDonald’s while on vacation in France.
wejpuH.. toH, cat DelmeH 'oqranD, mu' {vIghro'} chenmoHDI' vaj qay'wI' tu'lu'be' ; 'a latlh Ha'DIbaH mu' tlhoblu'DI' vaj qIchlu'. maSagh'a' ? On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
At qep’a’, ghunchu’wi’ and I were reading aloud to each other from Green Eggs, just translating on the fly. When we got to the page with the goat, we just left it at “goat”. It’s an Earth creature. It has a shape, an odour, a set of behaviours, a history in literature and a whole raft of connotations. Why would you want to substitute another animal that can’t possibly be the same?
You don’t find it necessary to change out the targs in Klingon stories for some kind of Earth animal, do you? Why do the same if you want a goat. If what you really really want is an animal that is like a goat in every way except that it is native to Qo’noS then tera’ goat rurchu’bogh Qo’noS Ha’DIbaH’e’ ‘oH. Maybe when a Klingon says “goat,” it’s going to come out a bit like qot or ghot. The latter will go nicely with the fact that the English word for goatHom is the same as the English word for puq.
Stop rebuilding the Klingon world to make it more like yours. It’s like eating at McDonald’s while on vacation in France.
pItlh.
From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of Felix Malmenbeck Sent: July 25, 2016 11:05
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but
by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand
vetted the new Klingon words in it.
According to the author (Keith R.A. DeCandido), Marc Okrand only vetted the glossary for "Diplomatic Implausibility". The glossary for "Honor Bound" was presumably vetted by 'angghal or somebody else from the KLI.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/91641513691459584
Also, according to DeCandido, the bolmaq is more similar to a hyena than a sheep. I believe I asked this question in connection with the Minecraft translation.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/219789081108946944
There is a creature known to Klingons that is called a "Degebian mountain goat", which is an eight-legged creature native to Degeb IV which incredibly good at climbing. I don't suppose that helps much with translations, however.
The minn'hor is a beast of burden (similar to cattle), the milk of which is used to make cheese.
I wrote a summary of Klingon-related animals I knew of a few years back (which unfortunately I've lost the original file for, so I can't update it without quite some bit of work; I will however make an effort to enter all relevant entries into the Extended Corpus, which I'm sorry to say I've been insufficiently diligent in updating).
Here is the document:
http://people.kth.se/~felixm/Klingon+animals.pdf
I see that I accidentally described the Degebian mountain goat as quadrupetal [sic], which is wrong both in fact and in spelling.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 19:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal
In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles.
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it.
I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once.
On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ?
mop qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
cat rurbogh tlhIngan Ha'DIbaH 'oH vIghro''e'. tera' cat vIperchu' vIneHchugh, cat jIjatlh.
On Jul 28, 2016, at 11:12, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Qov:
Stop rebuilding the Klingon world to make it more like yours. It’s like eating at McDonald’s while on vacation in France.
wejpuH..
toH, cat DelmeH 'oqranD, mu' {vIghro'} chenmoHDI' vaj qay'wI' tu'lu'be' ;
'a latlh Ha'DIbaH mu' tlhoblu'DI' vaj qIchlu'. maSagh'a' ?
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote: At qep’a’, ghunchu’wi’ and I were reading aloud to each other from Green Eggs, just translating on the fly. When we got to the page with the goat, we just left it at “goat”. It’s an Earth creature. It has a shape, an odour, a set of behaviours, a history in literature and a whole raft of connotations. Why would you want to substitute another animal that can’t possibly be the same?
You don’t find it necessary to change out the targs in Klingon stories for some kind of Earth animal, do you? Why do the same if you want a goat. If what you really really want is an animal that is like a goat in every way except that it is native to Qo’noS then tera’ goat rurchu’bogh Qo’noS Ha’DIbaH’e’ ‘oH. Maybe when a Klingon says “goat,” it’s going to come out a bit like qot or ghot. The latter will go nicely with the fact that the English word for goatHom is the same as the English word for puq.
Stop rebuilding the Klingon world to make it more like yours. It’s like eating at McDonald’s while on vacation in France.
pItlh.
From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of Felix Malmenbeck Sent: July 25, 2016 11:05
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but
by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand
vetted the new Klingon words in it.
According to the author (Keith R.A. DeCandido), Marc Okrand only vetted the glossary for "Diplomatic Implausibility". The glossary for "Honor Bound" was presumably vetted by 'angghal or somebody else from the KLI.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/91641513691459584
Also, according to DeCandido, the bolmaq is more similar to a hyena than a sheep. I believe I asked this question in connection with the Minecraft translation.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/219789081108946944
There is a creature known to Klingons that is called a "Degebian mountain goat", which is an eight-legged creature native to Degeb IV which incredibly good at climbing. I don't suppose that helps much with translations, however.
The minn'hor is a beast of burden (similar to cattle), the milk of which is used to make cheese.
I wrote a summary of Klingon-related animals I knew of a few years back (which unfortunately I've lost the original file for, so I can't update it without quite some bit of work; I will however make an effort to enter all relevant entries into the Extended Corpus, which I'm sorry to say I've been insufficiently diligent in updating).
Here is the document:
http://people.kth.se/~felixm/Klingon+animals.pdf
I see that I accidentally described the Degebian mountain goat as quadrupetal [sic], which is wrong both in fact and in spelling.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 19:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal
In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles.
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it.
I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once.
On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ?
mop qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
tera' Ha'DIbaH bIH SajwIj'e' 'a reH bIHvaD vIghro' vIpong. rut tlhIngan mu' vIlo' 'e' ngeD law', mu' nov vIngIp 'e' ngeD puS. (mu'tlhegh vorgh vIqonDI', pab vIwem 'e' DaHarchugh, HIqaD!) mIp'av yergho bu'a' bachwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh
jatlhDI' vay', tlhIngan Hol vIghoj, vaj motlh Hagh nuvpu'. qatlh Hagh chaH ? tu'HomI'raH 'oH tlhIngan Hol'e' 'e' luHarmo'. 'ej qatlh luHar ? mu'tay' QemjIq law' ghajmo' tlhIngan Hol. 'ej maH - tlhIngan yej'an -, chay' mavang ? nItlhmaj 'emDaq maSo'taH. tlhIngan Hol mu'tay' yapHa' wItlhojQo'. 'ej ngoQvam wIjunmeH nuq wIjatlh ? majangtaH, Hol nov 'oH tlhIngan Hol'e'. 'ej novmo', mu'tay' QemjIqmey ghaj.. vangmeH tIghvam wI'aghtaHmo', tlhIngan Hol wIQIvmoH. 'ej nItlhmaj 'emDaq maSo'taHmo', nunuS nuv. 'op ret, jIjatlh : mu'mey chu' chenmoHmeH mIw ghaj *lojban* ; 'ej wa' jaj mIwvetlh ghajnIS je tlhIngan Hol. DaHjaj, mu'mey'vam vIjatlhqangqa'bej. tlhIngan Hol vImuSHa'mo', naQchoH vIneH. mu'mey chu' boSuqmeH qep'a' qepHom je boloSqang ? boloSqangba' 'a jIHbe'. qaStaHvIS maH DIS poHmey veb, taHmeH tlhIngan Hol naQchoHnISbej. qatlh tlhoS pagh jatlhwI' chu' tu'lu' ? wa'vam ngoD luSovbejmo' : yapHa' tlhIngan Hol. 'ej yapHa'mo' tlhIngan Hol, qatlh lughojmeH vum ? DaH, chaq tughel : yapHa'chugh tlhIngan Hol vaj qatlh Daghojta' ? 'ej jIjang : pabDajmo' neH 'ej QIchDajmo' neH. 'ej meq peghmo'.. 'a jIleghlaHbe'Qo' 'ej vIt vItemQo'.. latlh mu'mey' law' ghajnISbej tlhIngan Hol. nach velwI' qIj 2016-07-29 7:56 GMT+03:00 Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>:
tera' Ha'DIbaH bIH SajwIj'e' 'a reH bIHvaD vIghro' vIpong. rut tlhIngan mu' vIlo' 'e' ngeD law', mu' nov vIngIp 'e' ngeD puS. (mu'tlhegh vorgh vIqonDI', pab vIwem 'e' DaHarchugh, HIqaD!)
mIp'av yergho bu'a' bachwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
At qep’a’, ghunchu’wi’ and I were reading aloud to each other from Green
Eggs, just translating on the fly. When we got to the page with the goat, we just left it at “goat”. It’s an Earth creature. It has a shape, an odour, a set of behaviours, a history in literature and a whole raft of connotations. Why would you want to substitute another animal that can’t possibly be the same?
I hear people do this all the time when speaking non-English around me. When I worked at an auto shop, I had customers that would interject English auto part names into their non-English sentence. Does their language have a term for that part of the car? Probably. But it's technical jargon for mechanics, so they don't know it. When I worked for a credit card company, people would leave the more technical terms in English. When I worked at Amazon, packages would be multi-lingual. And unlike my other two examples, these translators had time to sit down and think about things, and they left things in English as well. Often they were computer or phone terms. USB was never translated, for example. English also does this. Qov's targh example, for example. taco déjà vu (personal hobby of mine is to ask people how to say this in their language; a lot of people don't seem to know) Since joining this list in 2002, I've noticed that a lot of Klingon speakers don't like doing this. They like using Klingon words for things. To the point that there's an rule on the list not to transliterate things, because we already know you're going to try. Now, if I'm talking about an earth cat, I don't see a problem with calling it a {vIghro'}. The two are close enough IMO. If someone calls their dog a {targh}, I roll my eyes, but know what they mean. I think the answer varies based on the project. Reading a book aloud and translating on the fly for fun, I'd leave it as "goat". Translating the book for publication, I'd substitute a known Klingon animal, and inform the illustrator of the substitution. In that book, it's not important that we have a goat. Even in The Three Billy Goats Gruff, I'm pretty sure we could change the animal and keep the story. If, for some reason, keeping the goat as a goat is important, leave it as "goat". That said, I am guilty of wanting Klingon names for Terran animals. My 7yo son is obsessed with bunnies, and there was really no known Klingon animal to use instead. And he's been asking what the Klingon word for "bunny" is for several years now. So I did vote in the poll this Spring/Summer for the "animals" category. Because, to my son, it is very important that we're talking about bunnies. We can't just substitute in another animal. The same thing with my 9yo daughter and owls. But in her case, we had {lIr}. ~naHQun
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
Reading a book aloud and translating on the fly for fun, I'd leave it as "goat". Translating the book for publication, I'd substitute a known Klingon animal, and inform the illustrator of the substitution. In that book, it's not important that we have a goat.
For "Green Eggs and Ham", the important part is the rhyme with "boat". Were I to commit to a faithful poetic translation of the book, I might seriously consider substituting {qISa'ruj}. If I thought about it longer, I would probably change a lot in order to preserve the simple vocabulary and phrasing, rather than worry about the specific words used in the original. If you want to evoke an animal known to be nimblefooted on mountainsides and with a reputation for chewing on anything remotely plantlike, you could do a lot worse than calling it a {tera' qapra'} or {HIrquS} or even {bIlI'ghot}. If I had pick a Klingon name for a goat, my inclination would be to call it {lurSaS}. -- ghunchu'wI'
thank you ! "Degebian mountain goat" seems to be what I'm looking for ; but does it have a klingon spelling ? mop qIjchu' On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but
by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand
vetted the new Klingon words in it.
According to the author (Keith R.A. DeCandido), Marc Okrand only vetted the glossary for "Diplomatic Implausibility". The glossary for "Honor Bound" was presumably vetted by 'angghal or somebody else from the KLI.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/91641513691459584
Also, according to DeCandido, the bolmaq is more similar to a hyena than a sheep. I believe I asked this question in connection with the Minecraft translation.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/219789081108946944
There is a creature known to Klingons that is called a "Degebian mountain goat", which is an eight-legged creature native to Degeb IV which incredibly good at climbing. I don't suppose that helps much with translations, however.
The minn'hor is a beast of burden (similar to cattle), the milk of which is used to make cheese.
I wrote a summary of Klingon-related animals I knew of a few years back (which unfortunately I've lost the original file for, so I can't update it without quite some bit of work; I will however make an effort to enter all relevant entries into the Extended Corpus, which I'm sorry to say I've been insufficiently diligent in updating).
Here is the document:
http://people.kth.se/~felixm/Klingon+animals.pdf
I see that I accidentally described the Degebian mountain goat as quadrupetal [sic], which is wrong both in fact and in spelling.
________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 19:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal
In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles.
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it.
I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once.
On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ?
mop qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
"Degebian mountain goat" seems to be what I'm looking for ; but does it have a klingon spelling ?
Nope, which I guess means we're back to square one :P ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 09:32 To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal thank you ! "Degebian mountain goat" seems to be what I'm looking for ; but does it have a klingon spelling ? mop qIjchu' On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but
by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand
vetted the new Klingon words in it.
According to the author (Keith R.A. DeCandido), Marc Okrand only vetted the glossary for "Diplomatic Implausibility". The glossary for "Honor Bound" was presumably vetted by 'angghal or somebody else from the KLI.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/91641513691459584
Also, according to DeCandido, the bolmaq is more similar to a hyena than a sheep. I believe I asked this question in connection with the Minecraft translation.
Source: https://twitter.com/KRADeC/status/219789081108946944
There is a creature known to Klingons that is called a "Degebian mountain goat", which is an eight-legged creature native to Degeb IV which incredibly good at climbing. I don't suppose that helps much with translations, however.
The minn'hor is a beast of burden (similar to cattle), the milk of which is used to make cheese.
I wrote a summary of Klingon-related animals I knew of a few years back (which unfortunately I've lost the original file for, so I can't update it without quite some bit of work; I will however make an effort to enter all relevant entries into the Extended Corpus, which I'm sorry to say I've been insufficiently diligent in updating).
Here is the document:
http://people.kth.se/~felixm/Klingon+animals.pdf
I see that I accidentally described the Degebian mountain goat as quadrupetal [sic], which is wrong both in fact and in spelling.
________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 19:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Goat animal
In the "extended" canon (in this case the novel "Honor Bound") there is the so-called {bolmaq}, a native animal of Boreth, which makes a bleating sound and tends to run around in circles.
The word wasn't invented by Marc Okrand himself, but by the author of the novel. I think, however, Okrand vetted the new Klingon words in it.
I used {bolmaq} to describe a sheep once.
On Jul 25, 2016 18:54, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a klingon animal, which resembles the terran goat ?
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Hi there, I just found an interesting discussion on the Facebook group: We have just learned the new word {magh} for "grass-like plant", and heard that {magh yotlh} can be translated as "mawn" (i.e. lit. "field of grass") (qep'a' 2016) Now the question arose whether one should translate "lawn mower" as a) magh yotlh pewI' or b) magh pe'wI' I thought that's intereresting, because on one side, we say "lawn mower" in english, on the other hand, the device does not {pe'} the {yotlh}. Does it? I'm curious to see your opinions on that :-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/NewWordsQepa23
On 7/26/2016 10:10 AM, Lieven wrote:
Now the question arose whether one should translate "lawn mower" as
a) magh yotlh pewI' or b) magh pe'wI'
I thought that's intereresting, because on one side, we say "lawn mower" in english, on the other hand, the device does not {pe'} the {yotlh}. Does it?
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters... -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters... Very true, and the most common variant likely varies quite unpredictably from language to language. In Swedish we only say "grass cutter" (gr?sklippare), and saying "lawn mower" (gr?smattsklippare) would sound really weird. However, both Danish and Norwegian (both Bokm?l and Nynorsk) apparently use both "grass cutter" (gressklippar, grasklippar, graessl?maskine) and "lawn cutter" (plenklippar, plenklipper, plaeneklipper). Considering the fact that not even the Scandinavian languages an make up their mind, I doubt we'll be able to deduce the preferred Klingon construction sand word-of-God/Maltz. However, both <magh pe'wI'> and <magh yotlh pe'wI'> should get the idea across to any Terran Klingon-speakers (or at least those comfortable with English, which is the vast majority). I personally kind of like <magh chIpwI'>, but perhaps that's for more detailed sculpting. ...or treacherous barbers. 26 juli 2016 kl. 16:14 skrev SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>>: Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters...
I will come down strongly on the side of <<magh chIpwI'>> because the maintenance trimming we do to lawns is definitely more clearly conveyed by <<chIp>> and I think that "grass cutter" makes sense in any language, even if, like English, it is not the preferred word, whereas "Lawn cutter" might not make sense if it was not preferred. Furthermore, I doubt there is a specific set phrase for it in Klingon, because lawn maintenance seems like a useless waste of time to me; it must me much moreso to a Klingon. be''etlh On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters...
Very true, and the most common variant likely varies quite unpredictably from language to language.
In Swedish we only say "grass cutter" (gräsklippare), and saying "lawn mower" (gräsmattsklippare) would sound really weird. However, both Danish and Norwegian (both Bokmål and Nynorsk) apparently use both "grass cutter" (gressklippar, grasklippar, græsslåmaskine) and "lawn cutter" (plenklippar, plenklipper, plæneklipper).
Considering the fact that not even the Scandinavian languages an make up their mind, I doubt we'll be able to deduce the preferred Klingon construction sand word-of-God/Maltz. However, both «magh pe'wI'» and «magh yotlh pe'wI'» should get the idea across to any Terran Klingon-speakers (or at least those comfortable with English, which is the vast majority).
I personally kind of like «magh chIpwI'», but perhaps that's for more detailed sculpting. ...or treacherous barbers.
26 juli 2016 kl. 16:14 skrev SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters...
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You wouldn’t seriously speak of “mowing” someone’s hair, and you wouldn’t seriously speak of *chIp*-ping the *magh* or *magh yotlh.* We don’t know if Klingons have a separate word for /mow,/ and in that absence the only correct choice is *pe’*/cut./ As for Klingon lawn maintenance, I’m not so ready to compare my own motivations to those of Klingons. Whenever we see Klingon residences it seems to be in cities or on mountains. They seem to prefer stone and metal over foliage. A Klingon guide in /Conversational Klingon/ found a power station to be beautiful, even though it smelled and stung the Terran’s eyes. On 7/26/2016 12:29 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence wrote:
I will come down strongly on the side of <<magh chIpwI'>> because the maintenance trimming we do to lawns is definitely more clearly conveyed by <<chIp>> and I think that "grass cutter" makes sense in any language, even if, like English, it is not the preferred word, whereas "Lawn cutter" might not make sense if it was not preferred. Furthermore, I doubt there is a specific set phrase for it in Klingon, because lawn maintenance seems like a useless waste of time to me; it must me much moreso to a Klingon.
be''etlh
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se <mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote:
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters...
Very true, and the most common variant likely varies quite unpredictably from language to language.
In Swedish we only say "grass cutter" (gräsklippare), and saying "lawn mower" (gräsmattsklippare) would sound really weird. However, both Danish and Norwegian (both Bokmål and Nynorsk) apparently use both "grass cutter" (gressklippar, grasklippar, græsslåmaskine) and "lawn cutter" (plenklippar, plenklipper, plæneklipper).
Considering the fact that not even the Scandinavian languages an make up their mind, I doubt we'll be able to deduce the preferred Klingon construction sand word-of-God/Maltz. However, both «magh pe'wI'» and «magh yotlh pe'wI'» should get the idea across to any Terran Klingon-speakers (or at least those comfortable with English, which is the vast majority).
I personally kind of like «magh chIpwI'», but perhaps that's for more detailed sculpting. ...or treacherous barbers.
26 juli 2016 kl. 16:14 skrev SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>>:
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters...
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No, I would not speak of mowing someone's hair, but I would certainly speak of trimming the lawn. <<chIp>> is glossed as "cut, trim (hair)". When hair is cut or trimmed, it is shortened for aesthetic effect. I don't know that Klingons have the notion of mowing lawns at all, and "Giving the grass a haircut" is certainly much more descriptive of what is happening than "Cutting the grass" would be to people who have no tradition of mown lawns. In addition, I think that your evidence supports my point: we have no evidence that Klingons have lawns, and some evidence that they don't. Therefore, it seems less likely that they would have a specific word for "mow" and if they did it might refer specifically to the harvesting of grain grasses rather than lawn maintenance. I will continue with magh chIpwI' as the much more evocative phrase. be''etlh On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 1:17 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
You wouldn’t seriously speak of “mowing” someone’s hair, and you wouldn’t seriously speak of *chIp*-ping the *magh* or *magh yotlh.* We don’t know if Klingons have a separate word for *mow,* and in that absence the only correct choice is *pe’**cut.*
As for Klingon lawn maintenance, I’m not so ready to compare my own motivations to those of Klingons. Whenever we see Klingon residences it seems to be in cities or on mountains. They seem to prefer stone and metal over foliage. A Klingon guide in *Conversational Klingon* found a power station to be beautiful, even though it smelled and stung the Terran’s eyes.
On 7/26/2016 12:29 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence wrote:
I will come down strongly on the side of <<magh chIpwI'>> because the maintenance trimming we do to lawns is definitely more clearly conveyed by <<chIp>> and I think that "grass cutter" makes sense in any language, even if, like English, it is not the preferred word, whereas "Lawn cutter" might not make sense if it was not preferred. Furthermore, I doubt there is a specific set phrase for it in Klingon, because lawn maintenance seems like a useless waste of time to me; it must me much moreso to a Klingon.
be''etlh
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters...
Very true, and the most common variant likely varies quite unpredictably from language to language.
In Swedish we only say "grass cutter" (gräsklippare), and saying "lawn mower" (gräsmattsklippare) would sound really weird. However, both Danish and Norwegian (both Bokmål and Nynorsk) apparently use both "grass cutter" (gressklippar, grasklippar, græsslåmaskine) and "lawn cutter" (plenklippar, plenklipper, plæneklipper).
Considering the fact that not even the Scandinavian languages an make up their mind, I doubt we'll be able to deduce the preferred Klingon construction sand word-of-God/Maltz. However, both «magh pe'wI'» and «magh yotlh pe'wI'» should get the idea across to any Terran Klingon-speakers (or at least those comfortable with English, which is the vast majority).
I personally kind of like «magh chIpwI'», but perhaps that's for more detailed sculpting. ...or treacherous barbers.
26 juli 2016 kl. 16:14 skrev SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
Lawn mowers are also called grass cutters...
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On 7/26/2016 1:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence wrote:
No, I would not speak of mowing someone's hair, but I would certainly speak of trimming the lawn. <<chIp>> is glossed as "cut, trim (hair)".
But the English word /trim/ doesn't mean "cut hair." It means "make shorter by cutting." The Klingon word *chIp,* however, means "make /hair/ shorter by cutting." English /trim/ can be applied to things other than hair, and is not even especially associated with hair.
When hair is cut or trimmed, it is shortened for aesthetic effect. I don't know that Klingons have the notion of mowing lawns at all, and "Giving the grass a haircut" is certainly much more descriptive of what is happening than "Cutting the grass" would be to people who have no tradition of mown lawns.
Maltz gave us the phrase *magh yotlh,* so he at least understands the concept and could declare a "correct" phrase for it. Whether "giving the grass a haircut" is a better description of the act than "cutting the grass" is subjective, and I'm not sure I agree that it's more descriptive. One relies on metaphor; the other is straightforward. And there are other reasons to mow grass than just for aesthetics: sports fields need to be mown if they are grassy; tall grass can support dangerous fauna, obstruct vision, and hinder the operation of vehicles; some animals eat hay. Since *magh* is a Klingon plant /like/ grass, they must deal with it from time to time, either obliterating it or mowing it. Or maybe even using it decoratively.
I will continue with magh chIpwI' as the much more evocative
...and incorrect...
phrase.
I dislike playing the "a Klingon would" game, where we project our ideas of what a Klingon would do/say/believe/prefer and use that straw man as an argument for Klingon grammar. Barring information from Okrand, using *chIp* as /mow/ is, at best, poetic license. The standard verb is *pe'*/cut./ If you like, use *runmoH* /shorten/ along with it to get your point across. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I suspect you would agree that <<magh vIchIp>> is no more incorrect than "I give the lawn a haircut." I will be satisfied with that. be''etlh On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 1:55 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/26/2016 1:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence wrote:
No, I would not speak of mowing someone's hair, but I would certainly speak of trimming the lawn. <<chIp>> is glossed as "cut, trim (hair)".
But the English word *trim* doesn't mean "cut hair." It means "make shorter by cutting." The Klingon word *chIp,* however, means "make *hair* shorter by cutting." English *trim* can be applied to things other than hair, and is not even especially associated with hair.
When hair is cut or trimmed, it is shortened for aesthetic effect. I don't know that Klingons have the notion of mowing lawns at all, and "Giving the grass a haircut" is certainly much more descriptive of what is happening than "Cutting the grass" would be to people who have no tradition of mown lawns.
Maltz gave us the phrase *magh yotlh,* so he at least understands the concept and could declare a "correct" phrase for it.
Whether "giving the grass a haircut" is a better description of the act than "cutting the grass" is subjective, and I'm not sure I agree that it's more descriptive. One relies on metaphor; the other is straightforward. And there are other reasons to mow grass than just for aesthetics: sports fields need to be mown if they are grassy; tall grass can support dangerous fauna, obstruct vision, and hinder the operation of vehicles; some animals eat hay. Since *magh* is a Klingon plant *like* grass, they must deal with it from time to time, either obliterating it or mowing it. Or maybe even using it decoratively.
I will continue with magh chIpwI' as the much more evocative
...and incorrect...
phrase.
I dislike playing the "a Klingon would" game, where we project our ideas of what a Klingon would do/say/believe/prefer and use that straw man as an argument for Klingon grammar. Barring information from Okrand, using *chIp* as *mow* is, at best, poetic license. The standard verb is *pe'** cut.* If you like, use *runmoH* *shorten* along with it to get your point across.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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Your suspicion is correct. On 7/26/2016 2:15 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence wrote:
I suspect you would agree that <<magh vIchIp>> is no more incorrect than "I give the lawn a haircut." I will be satisfied with that.
be''etlh
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 1:55 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 7/26/2016 1:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence wrote:
No, I would not speak of mowing someone's hair, but I would certainly speak of trimming the lawn. <<chIp>> is glossed as "cut, trim (hair)".
But the English word /trim/ doesn't mean "cut hair." It means "make shorter by cutting." The Klingon word *chIp,* however, means "make /hair/ shorter by cutting." English /trim/ can be applied to things other than hair, and is not even especially associated with hair.
When hair is cut or trimmed, it is shortened for aesthetic effect. I don't know that Klingons have the notion of mowing lawns at all, and "Giving the grass a haircut" is certainly much more descriptive of what is happening than "Cutting the grass" would be to people who have no tradition of mown lawns.
Maltz gave us the phrase *magh yotlh,* so he at least understands the concept and could declare a "correct" phrase for it.
Whether "giving the grass a haircut" is a better description of the act than "cutting the grass" is subjective, and I'm not sure I agree that it's more descriptive. One relies on metaphor; the other is straightforward. And there are other reasons to mow grass than just for aesthetics: sports fields need to be mown if they are grassy; tall grass can support dangerous fauna, obstruct vision, and hinder the operation of vehicles; some animals eat hay. Since *magh* is a Klingon plant /like/ grass, they must deal with it from time to time, either obliterating it or mowing it. Or maybe even using it decoratively.
I will continue with magh chIpwI' as the much more evocative
...and incorrect...
phrase.
I dislike playing the "a Klingon would" game, where we project our ideas of what a Klingon would do/say/believe/prefer and use that straw man as an argument for Klingon grammar. Barring information from Okrand, using *chIp* as /mow/ is, at best, poetic license. The standard verb is *pe'*/cut./ If you like, use *runmoH* /shorten/ along with it to get your point across.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
The Klingon Dictionary defines {chIp} as "cut, trim" and puts (hair) in parentheses. I choose to interpret that as meaning "hair" is an appropriate object of the verb, and it is probably the default if one is not explicitly given, but it is not the only correct object. I treat it as similar to {baH}, which has a similar parenthetical explanation of object. Likewise, our new draw/holster verbs were presented with only (gun, knife) as part of the definition. We know that's not an exhaustive list of potential objects. I see {chIp} as a perfect word for describing mowing a lawn, trimming hedges, pruning trees, and other "maintenance" cutting. On the other hand, I'm not sure I would use it for shearing sheep, which is more of a "harvesting" activity, even though it involves literally cutting hair. -- ghunchu'wI'
On 7/26/2016 3:09 PM, Alan Anderson wrote:
The Klingon Dictionary defines {chIp} as "cut, trim" and puts (hair) in parentheses. I choose to interpret that as meaning "hair" is an appropriate object of the verb, and it is probably the default if one is not explicitly given, but it is not the only correct object.
I, however, believe it means only cutting hair. When words are put in parentheses, it means Okrand is disambiguating definitions for us, not giving us sample objects because he feels like it. *baH* is /fire (torpedo, rocket, missile)/ to distinguish it from meanings like /fire (employee)//./*QIq* is /draw, pull out (weapon, tool, instrument)/ to keep us from thinking it means /draw (as on paper)/ or /pull out (military forces). /He is even obviously not specifying an object in the parentheses in a word like *Dan* /occupy (military term).///*chIp* /cut, trim (hair)/ is doing the same thing, telling us that this refers to hair-cutting and not other kinds of cutting or trimming. If this weren't the case, he wouldn't give us parentheses only for the words that can be ambiguous in English. He doesn't give us, for instance, *bav* /orbit (planet, nucleus),/ or *ghup* /swallow (down throat)/ because these English definitions are already unambiguous.*//* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 26 July 2016 at 21:30, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
(military term). chIp cut, trim (hair) is doing the same thing, telling us that this refers to hair-cutting and not other kinds of cutting or trimming.
I interpret it as meaning "this refers to the kind of 'trim' that you might do with a hair, i.e. cut it, as opposed to, say 'trim a uniform with fur' or 'trim the control surfaces of a flyer' " -- along the lines of the "fire (torpedo, rocket, missile)" versus "fire (employee)": just an example object to clarify the action of the verb. Ph.
On 26 July 2016 at 21:30, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
(military term). chIp cut, trim (hair) is doing the same thing, telling us that this refers to hair-cutting and not other kinds of cutting or trimming.
I interpret it as meaning "this refers to the kind of 'trim' that you might do with a hair, i.e. cut it, as opposed to, say 'trim a uniform with fur' or 'trim the control surfaces of a flyer' " -- along the lines of the "fire (torpedo, rocket, missile)" versus "fire (employee)": just an example object to clarify the action of the verb.
Ph.
For the sailors on the list: to trim one's sails. -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
English "mow" is limited to only cutting grass, grain, etc. I'm in the camp that believes Klingon {chIp} is limited to only cutting hair. However, in English, it is not uncommon to hear one say that they are "giving the lawn a haircut". Though this is usually said to, or by, small children to help explain the activity. So, being an English speaker, I would understand what's going on. But I wouldn't accept it as standard usage in either language. Back to the original question, I'd be fine with {magh pe'wI'}. ~naHQun
I poked my head in this thread to see why there was so much interest in lawnmowers. I am in the camp that holds that chIp is a hair-specific verb, and that the object in question is a magh pe’wI’. I’d accept chIp for cutting the edges of things that resemble hair on a head, like maybe a trimming a shrub or the ends of curtains that hang down. Someone else asked if a magh pe’wI’ was a ride-on mower or a scythe and I say yes. It’s also a pair of nail scissors or anything else you use to pe’ your magh. - Qov From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of Michael Roney, Jr. Sent: July 26, 2016 15:08 To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] lawn mower English "mow" is limited to only cutting grass, grain, etc. I'm in the camp that believes Klingon {chIp} is limited to only cutting hair. However, in English, it is not uncommon to hear one say that they are "giving the lawn a haircut". Though this is usually said to, or by, small children to help explain the activity. So, being an English speaker, I would understand what's going on. But I wouldn't accept it as standard usage in either language. Back to the original question, I'd be fine with {magh pe'wI'}. ~naHQun
SuStel, you are right in that the parenthetical is meant to disambiguate. However, I believe it is meant to disambiguate the type of action the verb performs rather than to restrict objects of the verb. The various examples you cite bear this out. be''etlh On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
On 26 July 2016 at 21:30, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
(military term). chIp cut, trim (hair) is doing the same thing, telling us that this refers to hair-cutting and not other kinds of cutting or trimming.
I interpret it as meaning "this refers to the kind of 'trim' that you might do with a hair, i.e. cut it, as opposed to, say 'trim a uniform with fur' or 'trim the control surfaces of a flyer' " -- along the lines of the "fire (torpedo, rocket, missile)" versus "fire (employee)": just an example object to clarify the action of the verb.
Ph.
For the sailors on the list: to trim one's sails.
-- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
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On 26 July 2016 at 21:30, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/26/2016 3:09 PM, Alan Anderson wrote: I, however, believe it means only cutting hair. When words are put in parentheses, it means Okrand is disambiguating definitions for us, not giving us sample objects because he feels like it. baH is fire (torpedo, rocket, missile) to distinguish it from meanings like fire (employee). QIq is draw, pull out (weapon, tool, instrument) to keep us from thinking it means draw (as on paper) or pull out (military forces). He is even obviously not specifying an object in the parentheses in a word like Dan occupy (military term). chIp cut, trim (hair) is doing the same thing, telling us that this refers to hair-cutting and not other kinds of cutting or trimming.
If this verb refers to hair-cutting, why is "hair" in parentheses? I agree that the "(hair)" is there to differentiate, but I think you're being too narrow in interpreting "cut, trim (hair)" to apply only to hair. The disambiguation isn't between hair-cutting and other kinds of cutting, it's between the sense of trimming that applies to hair and the senses that apply to other things (uniforms, sails, etc.).
If this weren't the case, he wouldn't give us parentheses only for the words that can be ambiguous in English. He doesn't give us, for instance, bav orbit (planet, nucleus), or ghup swallow (down throat) because these English definitions are already unambiguous.
Here, I think there are two senses of the word "cut" that English doesn't distinguish very well between, but which some other languages do: (1) to make an incision into something (and possibly to sever it), and (2) to neaten something by removing parts around its edges or periphery. That is, there are two senses of the word "cut": to cut into something, and to cut something which is on or around (i.e., or decorating, if you will) something else. It seems fairly straightforward that {pe'} means to cut in the first sense. To me, {magh yotlh pe'wI'} sounds like something is making a cut into the lawn, exactly as QeS described. I read {chIp} "cut, trim (hair)" to mean "cut" in the second sense. However, I don't see the act of cutting grass as either {pe'} or {chIp}, but as {yob}. I mean, come on, we have a perfectly good word which means to separate the top part of a plant from the part that's in the ground. -- De'vID
On 7/26/2016 3:09 PM, Alan Anderson wrote:
I, however, believe it means only cutting hair.
This contradicts :
When words are put in parentheses, it means Okrand is disambiguating definitions for us, not giving us sample objects because he feels like it.
I agree that anything in parenthesis is only to disambuguate. So why would that be differnt in "trim (hair)" ?
(military term). chIp cut, trim (hair) is doing the same thing, telling us that this refers to hair-cutting and not other kinds of cutting or trimming.
What makes you believe that? When okrand gives clear object, he does not use parenthesis: {'ep} "consume soup"
cutting, it's between the sense of trimming that applies to hair and the senses that apply to other things (uniforms, sails, etc.).
I would even go further in the use. Many people use {pe'} for cutting out parts of forwarded messages. I would use {chIp} if I delete the end of a message.
I read {chIp} "cut, trim (hair)" to mean "cut" in the second sense.
in the sense of "cut of a part to make it shorter".
However, I don't see the act of cutting grass as either {pe'} or {chIp}, but as {yob}. I mean, come on, we have a perfectly good word which means to separate the top part of a plant from the part that's in the ground.
Hehe, good idea. But {yob} is done to plants you like to use later, like to eat. Cutting of grass usually ends in throwing it away. (unless of course it's grass for feeding animals). Or will you invite us to a {yobta' yupma'} after cutting the lawn? ;-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 27 July 2016 at 13:44, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
[De'vID]:
However, I don't see the act of cutting grass as either {pe'} or {chIp}, but as {yob}. I mean, come on, we have a perfectly good word which means to separate the top part of a plant from the part that's in the ground.
Hehe, good idea. But {yob} is done to plants you like to use later, like to eat. Cutting of grass usually ends in throwing it away. (unless of course it's grass for feeding animals). Or will you invite us to a {yobta' yupma'} after cutting the lawn? ;-)
Indeed, and I will serve guests the plentiful {magh qagh} I will have prepared from the {ghargh} caught during the harvest. -- De'vID
I thought that among the Klingons, the qagh was a special particular species of worm, and not merely any worm. {{magh qagh}} can also mean "he interrupts the (Klingon} grass". ----Original message----
From : de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com Date : 28/07/2016 - 07:39 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] lawn mower
On 27 July 2016 at 13:44, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
... Or will you invite us to a {yobta' yupma'} after cutting the lawn? ;-)
Indeed, and I will serve guests the plentiful {magh qagh} I will have prepared from the {ghargh} caught during the harvest.
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
I thought that among the Klingons, the qagh was a special particular species of worm, and not merely any worm.
law' qagh Sar. wa' Sar rur tera' lam-ghargh. There are many different varieties of {qagh}. The Terran earthworm does resemble one shown on screen. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Gagh -- ghunchu'wI'
'upbej. qagh vISopQo'. On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
I thought that among the Klingons, the qagh was a special particular species of worm, and not merely any worm.
law' qagh Sar. wa' Sar rur tera' lam-ghargh.
There are many different varieties of {qagh}. The Terran earthworm does resemble one shown on screen.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Gagh
-- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 27 July 2016 at 13:28, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
However, I don't see the act of cutting grass as either {pe'} or {chIp}, but as {yob}. I mean, come on, we have a perfectly good word which means to separate the top part of a plant from the part that's in the ground.
The goal is a bit different, though - {yob} is more about "acquire", in the sense that the portion you cut off is the bit you want to keep, while when you trim the grass, you discard the clippings because the result you are interested in is the bit that stays in the ground. That's kind of like using the same word "filter" for your kidneys and a Brita device - they both do filtering, but only in one of them is the result the bit you want to keep. (So your Brita could be said to {yob} the impure water you put in, perhaps, but your kidneys are not {yob}ing water into your bladder.) Ph.
My translater program gave this: translating "magh":- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ magh may mean:- - V:betray - N:Klingon_plant_like_grass Irish Gaelic "magh" (from Ancient Celtic "magos") means "field".
I'm firmly with be''etlh and ghunchu'wI' on this. The verb {chIp} does not mean "cut hair, trim hair"; it means "cut, trim". "Hair" disambiguates, but there's no reason to consider it to exclude *everything* else. To take some other examples, must the object of {weq} absolutely be a percussion instrument (KGT: "hit (percussion instrument) with palm (v)")? Or does it just need to be anything that I hit in the manner of a percussion instrument? I don't see anything wrong with saying someone {qIvDu'Daj weqtaH} "is drumming on their knees with their palms". Another instance is {ghoS}, defined in TKD as "approach, go away from, proceed, come, follow (a course)". We know from many, many canon examples that the object can, but need not, be a course: it may be a destination, or indeed a point of origin in the right context. For that reason, I think {magh chIpwI'} is better for "lawn mower". (There's another, completely subjective reason. I grew up watching my uncle cut turf, which involves not trimming the grass, but cutting out entire sections of a mat of grass, with sod still attached. The machine that does that, I would immediately describe as a {magh pe'wI'}, and describing a lawn mower with the same term feels just incorrect.) QeS 'utlh
On 27 July 2016 at 08:06, Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:
For that reason, I think {magh chIpwI'} is better for "lawn mower". (There's another, completely subjective reason. I grew up watching my uncle cut turf, which involves not trimming the grass, but cutting out entire sections of a mat of grass, with sod still attached. The machine that does that, I would immediately describe as a {magh pe'wI'}, and describing a lawn mower with the same term feels just incorrect.)
Does no one think of it as a {yobwI'}? Also, now I wonder how {Qotmagh} got his name. -- De'vID
SuStel :
I dislike playing the "a Klingon would" game, where we project our ideas of what a Klingon would do/say/believe/prefer
I agree. The whole "a klingon would" argument insults the intelligence of the people it addresses, and it is a perfect way to express "I'm not able to support my opinion, but you should buy it because a klingon would whatever". If you want to support your opinion and sell it on educated and intelligent individuals, find the facts which prove it. If you're unable to do that, then bIjatlh 'e' yImev. mop qIj On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 11:07 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 27 July 2016 at 08:06, Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:
For that reason, I think {magh chIpwI'} is better for "lawn mower". (There's another, completely subjective reason. I grew up watching my uncle cut turf, which involves not trimming the grass, but cutting out entire sections of a mat of grass, with sod still attached. The machine that does that, I would immediately describe as a {magh pe'wI'}, and describing a lawn mower with the same term feels just incorrect.)
Does no one think of it as a {yobwI'}?
Also, now I wonder how {Qotmagh} got his name.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 27.07.2016 um 08:06 schrieb Rhona Fenwick:
The verb {chIp} does not mean "cut hair, trim hair"; it means "cut, trim". [...]
This discussion made me think about the words again, and I noticed the difference between cut and trim, at least in Klingon. Remember the phrase {qatlh pe''eghlu'}? It denotes the idea that {pe'} means cut, but does not always mean that something is cut in two pieces. (although we have the pe'meH taj, which can separate things). The other word chIp has the addition "hair" as an example that you do separate something. BTW, listen to the sound of scissors cutting hair: "chip-chip" :-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 27 July 2016 at 12:57, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 27.07.2016 um 08:06 schrieb Rhona Fenwick:
The verb {chIp} does not mean "cut hair, trim hair"; it means "cut, trim". [...]
This discussion made me think about the words again, and I noticed the difference between cut and trim, at least in Klingon. Remember the phrase {qatlh pe''eghlu'}? It denotes the idea that {pe'} means cut, but does not always mean that something is cut in two pieces. (although we have the pe'meH taj, which can separate things). The other word chIp has the addition "hair" as an example that you do separate something.
BTW, listen to the sound of scissors cutting hair: "chip-chip" :-)
But OTOH the canonical word for "scissors" is {cha''etlh pe'wI'}. -- De'vID
Am 27.07.2016 um 13:00 schrieb De'vID:
BTW, listen to the sound of scissors cutting hair: "chip-chip" :-)
But OTOH the canonical word for "scissors" is {cha''etlh pe'wI'}.
That's a good objection. I think this is one of the stuation where a) Okrand has possibly forgotten about the different words and b) we just have to live with the situation of having two similar words with slightly different meanings. I don't have a problem with that. I understand {chIp} is a special form of {pe'}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 7/27/2016 2:06 AM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:
I'm firmly with be''etlh and ghunchu'wI' on this. The verb {chIp} does not mean "cut hair, trim hair"; it means "cut, trim". "Hair" disambiguates, but there's no reason to consider it to exclude *everything* else. To take some other examples, must the object of {weq} absolutely be a percussion instrument (KGT: "hit (percussion instrument) with palm (v)")? Or does it just need to be anything that I hit in the manner of a percussion instrument? I don't see anything wrong with saying someone {qIvDu'Daj weqtaH} "is drumming on their knees with their palms".
In that case, your knees are a percussion instrument. You haven't deviated from the disambiguator at all.
Another instance is {ghoS}, defined in TKD as "approach, go away from, proceed, come, follow (a course)". We know from many, many canon examples that the object can, but need not, be a course: it may be a destination, or indeed a point of origin in the right context.
All of which are available in the various verb forms listed. If Okrand had intended "(hair)" to be only an example to disambiguate /trim,/ I would have expected multiple examples, to demonstrate that hair is only an example. "(hair, bushes, grass)" We get this with *baH,* which gives us "(torpedo, rocket, missile)," and not just "(torpedo)," which is what the word was invented for. He could have given us "(projectile)," in the manner of *weq* /hit (percussion instrument),/ but he didn't. In a couple of cases, Okrand /does/ give us examples in parentheses, and in these cases he actually says "e.g.": *laQ* /fire, energize (e.g. thrusters);/*Hach* /be developed (e.g., civilization)./ / / It simply does not follow Okrand's pattern to say that hair is only one kind of thing that you can *chIp.* He wasn't giving one possible example; he was telling us the sense of the verb. This doesn't prevent you from using the verb beyond its literal meaning, just as English doesn't prevent me from saying I'll give the lawn a buzz cut. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
jatlh Rhona Fenwick: I don't see anything wrong with saying someone {qIvDu'Daj weqtaH} "is drumming on their knees with their palms". jang SuStel: In that case, your knees are a percussion instrument. You haven't deviated from the disambiguator at all-- This first of all assumes the purpose of drumming on knees is to make music, and second, we don't know Klingons would consider a body part so used to be instrument. When the voice is spoken of as an instrument, it bends the usage for effect. But even if the knee slapping is to express amusement, it's understandably similar to playing a drum. jatlh SuStel: It simply does not follow Okrand's pattern to say that hair is only one kind of thing that you can *chIp.* He wasn't giving one possible example; he was telling us the sense of the verb. This doesn't prevent you from using the verb beyond its literal meaning, just as English doesn't prevent me from saying I'll give the lawn a buzz cut. There's no evidence in Star Trek of Klingon lawns. Even among humans, it's something of a local fad. Klingons would probably find lawn-keeping to be bizarre behavior. In that case, they might well speak metaphorically (and mockingly) of giving the grass field a haircut. -- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/ My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
On 7/27/2016 10:24 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:
jatlh Rhona Fenwick:
I don't see anything wrong with saying someone {qIvDu'Daj weqtaH} "is drumming on their knees with their palms".
jang SuStel:
In that case, your knees are a percussion instrument. You haven't deviated from the disambiguator at all--
This first of all assumes the purpose of drumming on knees is to make music, and second, we don't know Klingons would consider a body part so used to be instrument. When the voice is spoken of as an instrument, it bends the usage for effect. But even if the knee slapping is to express amusement, it's understandably similar to playing a drum.
*weq* doesn't mean /hit an object which just happens to be a percussion instrument, whether or not the hitting is intended to make music./ If a car were to ram into a drum, that would not be *weq,* but it certainly would be a kind of hit. If you're rhythmically slapping your knees, or even just once when timed for audible effect, that's *weq.* If you just happen to hit your knees once at random, that's not *weq.* **
jatlh SuStel:
It simply does not follow Okrand's pattern to say that hair is only one kind of thing that you can *chIp.* He wasn't giving one possible example; he was telling us the sense of the verb. This doesn't prevent you from using the verb beyond its literal meaning, just as English doesn't prevent me from saying I'll give the lawn a buzz cut.
There's no evidence in Star Trek of Klingon lawns. Even among humans, it's something of a local fad. Klingons would probably find lawn-keeping to be bizarre behavior. In that case, they might well speak metaphorically (and mockingly) of giving the grass field a haircut.
You're playing the "a Klingon would" game again. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 10:32 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/27/2016 10:24 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:
jatlh Rhona Fenwick:
I don't see anything wrong with saying someone {qIvDu'Daj weqtaH} "is drumming on their knees with their palms".
jang SuStel:
In that case, your knees are a percussion instrument. You haven't deviated from the disambiguator at all--
This first of all assumes the purpose of drumming on knees is to make music, and second, we don't know Klingons would consider a body part so used to be instrument. When the voice is spoken of as an instrument, it bends the usage for effect. But even if the knee slapping is to express amusement, it's understandably similar to playing a drum.
*weq* doesn't mean *hit an object which just happens to be a percussion instrument, whether or not the hitting is intended to make music.* If a car were to ram into a drum, that would not be *weq,* but it certainly would be a kind of hit.
If you're rhythmically slapping your knees, or even just once when timed for audible effect, that's *weq.* If you just happen to hit your knees once at random, that's not *weq.*
SuStel, I believe you are making your argument for us. You are clearly explaining <<weq>> as "hitting (something) in the manner in which one hits a drum." We are arguing that <<chIp>> means "cutting or trimming (something) in the manner in which one cuts or trims hair."
be''etlh
On 7/27/2016 11:03 AM, Elizabeth Lawrence wrote:
SuStel, I believe you are making your argument for us. You are clearly explaining <<weq>> as "hitting (something) in the manner in which one hits a drum." We are arguing that <<chIp>> means "cutting or trimming (something) in the manner in which one cuts or trims hair."
And what is the difference between cutting one's hair and, say, cutting a rope? Cutting a banana? Cutting a presentation? Can you *chIp* a *much*? Sorry, but when Okrand says /hair,/ he means /hair./ When Okrand says /percussion instrument,/ he means /percussion instrument./ When you slap your knees rhythmically, your knees ARE a percussion instrument. When you trim the lawn, the lawn is NOT hair. If Okrand had meant "(e.g., hair)" he would have written "(e.g., hair)." At least until Maltz says otherwise. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
jatlh SuStel: And what is the difference between cutting one's hair and, say, cutting a rope? Cutting a banana? Cutting a presentation? Can you *chIp* a *much*? Sorlu'taHvIS, much chIplaHbe' vay' 'ej pe'laHbe'. much vanlaH vay' qoj ghanglaH. Sorry, but when Okrand says *hair,* he means *hair.* When Okrand says *percussion instrument,* he means *percussion instrument.* When you slap your knees rhythmically, your knees ARE a percussion instrument. When you trim the lawn, the lawn is NOT hair. If Okrand had meant "(e.g., hair)" he would have written "(e.g., hair)." At least until Maltz says otherwise. jIQochbe'. latlh DochvaD mu' chIp Dalo'chugh, bISorHa'. much qonlu'DI' 'a lablu'pa', chaq ngajmoH muchwI'qoq. -- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/ My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
I think everyone has expressed their beliefs well and it is unlikely that anyone is going to be convinced to change their beliefs without clarification from Okrand/Maltz. Please feel free to go on expressing your opinions, I'm not trying to shut down the discussion. I just wanted to take a moment to give everyone a pause to take stock of where the discussion currently stands. Jeremy ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 11:01 AM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] lawn mower jatlh SuStel: And what is the difference between cutting one's hair and, say, cutting a rope? Cutting a banana? Cutting a presentation? Can you chIp a much? Sorlu'taHvIS, much chIplaHbe' vay' 'ej pe'laHbe'. much vanlaH vay' qoj ghanglaH. Sorry, but when Okrand says hair, he means hair. When Okrand says percussion instrument, he means percussion instrument. When you slap your knees rhythmically, your knees ARE a percussion instrument. When you trim the lawn, the lawn is NOT hair. If Okrand had meant "(e.g., hair)" he would have written "(e.g., hair)." At least until Maltz says otherwise. jIQochbe'. latlh DochvaD mu' chIp Dalo'chugh, bISorHa'. much qonlu'DI' 'a lablu'pa', chaq ngajmoH muchwI'qoq. -- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/ Bellerophon's Scale Modeling Blog II<http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/> bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com Just a short update. I finished cleanup of the new vent holes to make them neatly geometrical, so they look like they were made by Germans (or Austrians, rather) and ... My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
Mostly typing this for myself to sort out my own thoughts. Just went back to TKD, where the only English info we have on {chip} is "cut, trim (hair). TKD also gives us {pe'} "cut". Since this is the same book, it looks like Marc knowingly gave us two verbs for "cut". One of them, he also described as "trim" and then added "(hair)". So, either {chIp} only involves hair, or Okrand is trying to tell us that Klingons differentiate between types of cutting. So if {chIp} refers to the snipping that takes place during a hair cut, then {pe'} must mean the type of cutting one does with a knife. {chIp} has never been used, but we indeed see {pe'} in words like {pe'meH taj} cutting knife {pe'meH 'echlet} cutting board So I {pe'} my food or my enemy, but I {chIp} my construction paper? But then TNK gives us: {cha''etlh pe'wI'} scissors But scissors are what we use to cut hair. Maybe Maltz only goes to barbers that use trimmers? Did Okrand come up with {cha''etlh pe'wI'} or did he just approve it? I would be okay with a language saying that scissors {chIp} while a knife {pe'}. It's the "(hair)" part that's giving me pause. Bringing this back to a lawnmower, my unit doesn't have giant scissors that snip, it has a giant swinging blade that lops off the top. This action doesn't resemble what I do on a cutting board, or what I do during a haircut. It more closely resembles chopping off my enemies heads. Yes, I am beheading my lawn. I shall be victorious over the weeds that have betrayed me! ~naHQun
So far as we know, {chIp} only applies to hair cutting, at least when speaking literally, since that's what TKD says. There are not a lot of examples, as there are for {pe'}, and examples to me are more useful than glosses, disambiguated or otherwise. And those are not the only types of cutting, because there are also {DuQ} and {SIj}, and {chev}, {wav}, and even {chop} could conceivably be used to describe cutting, and probably a few other words as well. jIjatlh: latlh DochvaD mu' chIp Dalo'chugh, bISorHa'. much qonlu'DI' 'a lablu'pa', chaq ngajmoH muchwI'qoq. In my haste, I mistakenly wrote muchwI'qoq, not chIpwI'qoq as intended. SuStel's example of {much} as something one presumably could not {chIp} made me think of editing. And if Klingons who produce recorded entertainment refer metaphorically to an editor as {chIpwI'}, they might also use {jIb} as slang for the recorded material. (All of this is nothing but bemused speculation, in case anyone thought I was making a pronouncement about what Klingons would do.) -- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh <http://bellerophon.blog.com/>
Once this discussion winds down it would be great for someone to summarize this all up as a HolQeD style article. On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
So far as we know, {chIp} only applies to hair cutting, at least when speaking literally, since that's what TKD says. There are not a lot of examples, as there are for {pe'}, and examples to me are more useful than glosses, disambiguated or otherwise. And those are not the only types of cutting, because there are also {DuQ} and {SIj}, and {chev}, {wav}, and even {chop} could conceivably be used to describe cutting, and probably a few other words as well.
jIjatlh: latlh DochvaD mu' chIp Dalo'chugh, bISorHa'. much qonlu'DI' 'a lablu'pa', chaq ngajmoH muchwI'qoq.
In my haste, I mistakenly wrote muchwI'qoq, not chIpwI'qoq as intended. SuStel's example of {much} as something one presumably could not {chIp} made me think of editing. And if Klingons who produce recorded entertainment refer metaphorically to an editor as {chIpwI'}, they might also use {jIb} as slang for the recorded material. (All of this is nothing but bemused speculation, in case anyone thought I was making a pronouncement about what Klingons would do.)
-- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh <http://bellerophon.blog.com/>
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
jatlh Alan Steinberg: Once this discussion winds down it would be great for someone to summarize this all up as a HolQeD style article. QaQ qechlIj. bISap'a'? -- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh <http://bellerophon.blog.com/>
Am 28.07.2016 um 01:08 schrieb Alan Steinberg:
Once this discussion winds down it would be great for someone to summarize this all up as a HolQeD style article.
When I find the time do so, I usually put my results in the Klingon Language Wiki. Anyone else can do that too, of course. It's a free wiki. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
jatlh SuStel *weq* doesn't mean *hit an object which just happens to be a percussion instrument, whether or not the hitting is intended to make music.* If a car were to ram into a drum, that would not be *weq,* but it certainly would be a kind of hit. If you're rhythmically slapping your knees, or even just once when timed for audible effect, that's *weq.* If you just happen to hit your knees once at random, that's not *weq.* I agree with you totally on what type of action constitutes {weq}. But you're correcting me for something I didn't say. I just pointed out the assumptions implicit in your reasoning, namely (1) the disambiguator limits the object of {weq} to instruments, and (2) Klingons consider the knees to be instruments when used in a like manner to drums. These strike me as the sort of literal thinking that is so useful in computer science, and the second purports to know what Klingons would think. jaS jIQub. SorHa' tlhIngan net Sov. <qIvDu' weq> jatlhtaHvIS tlhIngan, chaq loQ SorHa'. jIjatlh There's no evidence in Star Trek of Klingon lawns. Even among humans, it's something of a local fad. Klingons would probably find lawn-keeping to be bizarre behavior. In that case, they might well speak metaphorically (and mockingly) of giving the grass field a haircut. jatlh SuStel: You're playing the "a Klingon would" game again. Many humans and possibly all aliens would consider it bizarre behavior, but I did say "probably" and "might well." How much subjunctive padding do you require? -- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/ My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
On 7/27/2016 11:36 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:
jatlh SuStel
*weq* doesn't mean /hit an object which just happens to be a percussion instrument, whether or not the hitting is intended to make music./ If a car were to ram into a drum, that would not be *weq,* but it certainly would be a kind of hit.
If you're rhythmically slapping your knees, or even just once when timed for audible effect, that's *weq.* If you just happen to hit your knees once at random, that's not *weq.*
I agree with you totally on what type of action constitutes {weq}. But you're correcting me for something I didn't say. I just pointed out the assumptions implicit in your reasoning, namely (1) the disambiguator limits the object of {weq} to instruments, and (2) Klingons consider the knees to be instruments when used in a like manner to drums. These strike me as the sort of literal thinking that is so useful in computer science, and the second purports to know what Klingons would think. jaS jIQub. SorHa' tlhIngan net Sov. <qIvDu' weq> jatlhtaHvIS tlhIngan, chaq loQ SorHa'.
I'm not saying that KLINGONS consider knees slapped to make music to be percussion instruments, I'm telling you that they ARE percussion instruments. There's no cultural or subjective evaluation here.
jIjatlh
There's no evidence in Star Trek of Klingon lawns. Even among humans, it's something of a local fad. Klingons would probably find lawn-keeping to be bizarre behavior. In that case, they might well speak metaphorically (and mockingly) of giving the grass field a haircut.
jatlh SuStel
You're playing the "a Klingon would" game again.
Many humans and possibly all aliens would consider it bizarre behavior, but I did say "probably" and "might well." How much subjunctive padding do you require?
Infinite. Speculation on whether Klingons have lawns is one thing; speculation on Klingon grammar based on speculation about Klingon whether Klingons have lawns is quite another. Let's draw conclusions based on canon and linguistics, not our completely baseless estimate of Klingon horticultural interest. We know precisely two things: there is a grass-like Klingon plant called *magh,* and Klingons—or at least Maltz—have a phrase for//a field of the stuff/:/ *magh yotlh.* Does *magh* grow as tall as grass? We don't know. Do Klingons ever cultivate it for any reason whatsoever? We don't know. Do Klingons ever have to maintain it or remove it? We don't know. Do Klingons have opinions about all the lawns they've seen on Human planets or in pictures? We don't know. So to declare that Klingons "probably" find the idea of lawn maintenance bizarre is based on a whole lot of we-don't-knows, as is the idea of using the verb for barbering to refer to cutting *magh* short. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
jatlh SuStel: I'm not saying that KLINGONS consider knees slapped to make music to be percussion instruments, I'm telling you that they ARE percussion instruments. There's no cultural or subjective evaluation here. vuD Daja'bej 'a ngoD Damaqlaw'. Doch neH boplaH mu', 'ej qech bopbe'laH. chaq qechvam Dalaj, 'a vIlajQo'. qech Hutlhlu'chugh, mu' poQbe'lu'. -- mIp'av yergho bu''a' baHwI' IKAV chuch 'etlh My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/ My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
To add another data point: I have a party book from 1917, and it advises people to hold outdoor parties on a freshly-shaved lawn. So not even the English is perfectly consistent over time. ter'eS From: Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] lawn mower #yiv6864050076 #yiv6864050076 -- P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv6864050076 For that reason, I think {magh chIpwI'} is better for "lawn mower". (There's another, completely subjective reason. I grew up watching my uncle cut turf, which involves not trimming the grass, but cutting out entire sections of a mat of grass, with sod still attached. The machine that does that, I would immediately describe as a {magh pe'wI'}, and describing a lawn mower with the same term feels just incorrect.) QeS 'utlh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 26 July 2016 at 16:10, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi there,
I just found an interesting discussion on the Facebook group:
We have just learned the new word {magh} for "grass-like plant", and heard that {magh yotlh} can be translated as "mawn" (i.e. lit. "field of grass") (qep'a' 2016)
Now the question arose whether one should translate "lawn mower" as
a) magh yotlh pewI' or b) magh pe'wI'
I thought that's intereresting, because on one side, we say "lawn mower" in english, on the other hand, the device does not {pe'} the {yotlh}. Does it?
I'm curious to see your opinions on that :-)
magh yotlhwIj yIlItHa'! qatlh maghwIj 'IHqu' Dape' DaneH jay'?! -- De'vID
participants (19)
-
Alan Anderson -
Alan Steinberg -
André Müller -
Anthony Appleyard -
David Holt -
De'vID -
Ed Bailey -
Elizabeth Lawrence -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Jeremy Silver -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
Philip Newton -
Rhona Fenwick -
Robyn Stewart -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Terrence Donnelly