Hello again, for my translation of Alice, we discovered another word which I think is very useful, and I wonder why we had never had (or needed) this before. I think that none of the existing {legh} and {bej} really cover what this means: <<< The word {chotlh} means "stare at" or "gaze at" or "observe." You'd also use it (often without an object) to mean staring off into space, staring at nothing in particular, zoning out. So it's used when you're looking at something intently, with a lot of focus, but also when you're not particularly focused. It can also be used for "ogle." Context clarifies which sort of connotation is intended.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/AliceInWonderland
On 11/11/2021 11:51 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
for my translation of Alice, we discovered another word which I think is very useful, and I wonder why we had never had (or needed) this before. I think that none of the existing {legh} and {bej} really cover what this means:
<<< The word {chotlh} means "stare at" or "gaze at" or "observe."
What /we?/ I've needed this word lots of times. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thursday, 11 November 2021 17:07:53 GMT SuStel wrote:
On 11/11/2021 11:51 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
for my translation of Alice, we discovered another word which I think is very useful, and I wonder why we had never had (or needed) this before. I think that none of the existing {legh} and {bej} really cover what this means:
<<< The word {chotlh} means "stare at" or "gaze at" or "observe."
What /we?/ I've needed this word lots of times.
We've needed to be able to stare in klingon for ages.
Am 11.11.2021 um 18:07 schrieb SuStel:
On 11/11/2021 11:51 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
for my translation of Alice, we discovered another word which I think is very useful, and I wonder why we had never had (or needed) this before. I think that none of the existing {legh} and {bej} really cover what this means:
<<< The word {chotlh} means "stare at" or "gaze at" or "observe."
What /we?/ I've needed this word lots of times.
What I meant to say is that I'm surprised that after so many years of "wish-listing" we do have words to express the negative charge of a neutron, but not a word for such a basic thing like "stare at". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/Chotlh
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 1:40 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
What I meant to say is that I'm surprised that after so many years of "wish-listing" we do have words to express the negative charge of a neutron, but not a word for such a basic thing like "stare at".
Words like {buS}, {nuD}, and {bej} (plus {-taH} and/or {-qu'}) have not disappointed me when I needed to talk about that "basic thing". I'm unsure about what the fundamental meaning of {chotlh} actually is. It can be used for looking intently at something, but also for not looking at anything? It sounds as if it's actually two somewhat related words, one used only with an object and one used only without. -- ghunchu'wI'
Am 11.11.2021 um 20:40 schrieb Alan Anderson:
I'm unsure about what the fundamental meaning of {chotlh} actually is. It can be used for looking intently at something, but also for not looking at anything? It sounds as if it's actually two somewhat related words, one used only with an object and one used only without.
The question originated from a character in the story who is just staring into the sky; Not watching the stars or so, just looking up with no target. Nothing is being observed or examined. I see the difference to the other verbs like {legh} is used more like "see" in general as opposed to "not see": "Do you see that cat over there?" {bej} is defined as "watch, observe". The proverb from TKW {bISutlhnISchugh jaghlI' mInDu' tIbej.} If you must negotiate, watch your enemy's eyes. is a hint to "observe" your opponent's eyes, but surely not stare at them intently. And here is the difference. When you are at a romantic dinner and you look into your girlsfriend's eyes, that's {chotlh}. And then, if you noticed (i.e. you {legh} ) another nice woman passing by, you can "ogle" at her, that is {chotlh} too. I guess there is a slight overlap betwen {bej} and {chotlh}, but if it's for staring at something - intently or stupidly - then it's clearly {chotlh}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/AliceInWonderland
On 11/11/2021 3:03 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
{bej} is defined as "watch, observe".
Is it? I don't see anywhere that /observe/ has been used to gloss *bej.*
The proverb from TKW {bISutlhnISchugh jaghlI' mInDu' tIbej.} If you must negotiate, watch your enemy's eyes. is a hint to "observe" your opponent's eyes, but surely not stare at them intently. The word /observe/ is never used in TKW to refer to vision.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 11.11.2021 um 21:53 schrieb SuStel:> Is it? I don't see anywhere that /observe/ has been used to gloss *bej.* Ah, yes. You are right. I have no idea why I had that in mind. I guess my thought came from the English definition of "watch". But of course, that does not count for Klingon. DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'! -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/Chotlh
jatlh ghunchu'wI'
I'm unsure about what the fundamental meaning of {chotlh} actually is. It can be used for looking intently at something, but also for not looking at anything? It sounds as if it's actually two somewhat related words, one used only with an object and one used only without.
I don't think it's about intent, focus, or thought at all, whether there is an object or not. It's a description of an external physical action and makes no reference at all to the internal perceptions or interpretations. You know that look that people have sometimes like they are staring very intensely at something, like they are so focused on something that they almost ignore everything else going on around them, but then when you ask them what they are looking at, they say, "nothing, I was just thinking." Maybe it looks to you like they are carefully watching the fish in the tank in front of them, but when you ask them, they say they didn't even notice the fish, they were thinking about something and didn't even see it. It's that look on the face that this word describes and not the thought process going on in the head. If they actually were looking at the fish with this kind of intense stare, then that fish would be the grammatical object of their staring. But if they were not actually staring at something specific and just had that look on their face while they were thinking about something else, then there is no grammatical object to be found for the stare. janSIy
On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 at 22:23, janSIy . <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
jatlh ghunchu'wI'
I'm unsure about what the fundamental meaning of {chotlh} actually is. It can be used for looking intently at something, but also for not looking at anything? It sounds as if it's actually two somewhat related words, one used only with an object and one used only without.
I don't think it's about intent, focus, or thought at all, whether there is an object or not. It's a description of an external physical action and makes no reference at all to the internal perceptions or interpretations. You know that look that people have sometimes like they are staring very intensely at something, like they are so focused on something that they almost ignore everything else going on around them, but then when you ask them what they are looking at, they say, "nothing, I was just thinking." Maybe it looks to you like they are carefully watching the fish in the tank in front of them, but when you ask them, they say they didn't even notice the fish, they were thinking about something and didn't even see it. It's that look on the face that this word describes and not the thought process going on in the head. If they actually were looking at the fish with this kind of intense stare, then that fish would be the grammatical object of their staring. But if they were not actually staring at something specific and just had that look on their face while they were thinking about something else, then there is no grammatical object to be found for the stare.
It might be helpful (or maybe unhelpful) to think of not using an object with this verb as implicitly using {pagh} as the object. {nuq Dachotlh?} "Watcha staring at?" {pagh vIchotlh} / {jIchotlh neH} "Nuttin'." -- De'vID
Sort of the opposite of {ghan} "glance at, take a quick look at" but similar to {nuD} "examine, look at, inspect" : nItlhejbogh petaQmey tInuD Look at these p'takhs at your side (PB, Molor to Kahless) wa' qa' nuD veqlargh, latlh qa' nuD veqlargh the Fek'lhr inspects them one by one (PB) The last example suggests that {nuD} shows professional or scientific interest, while {chotlh} is displays a more personal or absent-minded interest? -- Voragh ------------------------------Original Message------------------------------ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of Lieven L. Litaer for my translation of Alice, we discovered another word which I think is very useful, and I wonder why we had never had (or needed) this before. I think that none of the existing {legh} and {bej} really cover what this means: <<< The word {chotlh} means "stare at" or "gaze at" or "observe." You'd also use it (often without an object) to mean staring off into space, staring at nothing in particular, zoning out. So it's used when you're looking at something intently, with a lot of focus, but also when you're not particularly focused. It can also be used for "ogle." Context clarifies which sort of connotation is intended.
On 11/11/2021 12:40 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
The last example suggests that {nuD} shows professional or scientific interest, while {chotlh} is displays a more personal or absent-minded interest?
I think *nuD* implies taking in information, while *chotlh* only implies visual targeting. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (7)
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Alan Anderson -
De'vID -
janSIy . -
Jeremy Silver -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel