excuse me but what the jay' is {taymey}
We have: {bI'reS taymey} (n) "prologue" {bertlham taymey} (n) "epilogue" But then we have the obscure definition of {taymey}. Read: {taymey} (n) "section of a book or play or the like that's separate from the main portion of the work. taymey is a frozen form and is considered singular. It's okay to say taymeymey". Obviously, I must not be "the brightest bulb on the Yule tree" because I still can't understand what the jay' {taymey} actually is. Seemingly apparently it isn't a paragraph, but is it a "chapter"? Because if it isn't a chapter, then with the exception of {bI'reS taymey} and {bertlham taymey} I can't understand in what other way it could be useful. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
jatlh mayqel qunen'oS
Seemingly apparently it isn't a paragraph, but is it a "chapter"? Because if it isn't a chapter, then with the exception of {bI'reS taymey} and {bertlham taymey} I can't understand in what other way it could be useful.
The problem is that, in English, we consider only the numbered or titled sections of the narrative itself as chapters. But sometimes there are additional sections that are not chapters of the story. Like the prologue, epilogue, foreword, preface, glossary, appendix, index, table of contents, conclusion, afterword, postscript, etc. These and each of the chapters might all be called "sections" of the book, but we don't normally refer to these extra sections as chapters. Usually, we would consider some of these sections as part of the narrative (like the prologue and epilogue), but if the chapters were numbered, those sections would not receive chapter numbers, so it seems Klingons think even more strongly about them as being separate from the narrative itself. janSIy
Perhaps in a book {taymey} would be a forward, introduction, afterward, or appendix. In a documentary, it might be the part at the beginning where the narrator whets your appetite for the story about to be told, or the part at the end that summarizes what happened to the various people after the event that the documentary is about. In a traditional Southern Square Dance, it might be the improvised introduction used to synchronize the dancers to the tune before starting the dance taught during the walk-through, or perhaps the walk-through itself. It’s a supportive add-on, not part of the main thing divided into chapters. Does that help?
On Nov 11, 2021, at 7:50 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
We have:
{bI'reS taymey} (n) "prologue" {bertlham taymey} (n) "epilogue"
But then we have the obscure definition of {taymey}. Read:
{taymey} (n) "section of a book or play or the like that's separate from the main portion of the work. taymey is a frozen form and is considered singular. It's okay to say taymeymey".
Obviously, I must not be "the brightest bulb on the Yule tree" because I still can't understand what the jay' {taymey} actually is.
Seemingly apparently it isn't a paragraph, but is it a "chapter"? Because if it isn't a chapter, then with the exception of {bI'reS taymey} and {bertlham taymey} I can't understand in what other way it could be useful.
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
janSIy:
so it seems Klingons think even more strongly about them as being separate from the narrative itself charghwI': t’s a supportive add-on, not part of the main thing divided into chapters. Does that help?
I still don't understand, and perhaps it's because I'm trying to find a greek/english word for {taymey}. So let's approach this differently. Could we assume that a {taymey} is something broader that just a chapter? That perhaps it could be many chapters taken as a whole, as long as these chapters collectively were about the same subject? But if that's the case, then perhaps a {taymey} could be a number of paragraphs within a chapter, provided that they dealt with a specific subject, a subject different than that of the rest of the paragraphs of that chapter. What are your thoughts on this approach? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
jatlh mayqel qunen'oS
Could we assume that a {taymey} is something broader that just a chapter? That perhaps it could be many chapters taken as a whole, as long as these chapters collectively were about the same subject?
But if that's the case, then perhaps a {taymey} could be a number of paragraphs within a chapter, provided that they dealt with a specific subject, a subject different than that of the rest of the paragraphs of that chapter.
What are your thoughts on this approach?
I don't like it. Books are already divided into sections. For the majority of the narrative, those sections are chapters. But some of the sections are not chapters and these would be {taymey}. However, they would be individual sections separated from the other sections. You don't get to just divide up the book in whatever manner you wish - the author and publisher have already marked off the sections. The sections each have titles, but wouldn't be titled as chapters. I supposed an author could decide to make a single paragraph a whole section and give it a title and a page break. If the book has an epigraph, it is often just one sentence treated as a whole independent section of the book. English also does not have a single word for this kind of outside-the-narrative section, thus the need for the paragraph-of-text definition given and the difficulty describing them even with long exposition. "Section" is the closest we can get for a single word, but since you are imagining sectioning up the book in many different ways, it is clearly also not ideal. However, you need to pay attention to the intentional sectioning by the author and publisher. A {taymey} is a section in the same way that a "chapter" is a section. It has been separated from the other sections and chapters of the book in a consistent manner for that publication. janSIy
On the other hand.. Perhaps my whole approach is wrong from the start. Perhaps it's not a matter of paragraphs, chapters, etc; perhaps it's "a section of the book with a different purpose compared to the rest". And that's how we have {bI'reS taymey} and {bertlham taymey}. Because the prologue has a specific purpose, which is different from the purpose of the main book/play, which in turn has a different purpose from the epilogue. So perhaps a {taymey} is a part of a book/play/whatever, which could consist of one or more paragraphs/chapters, and with a purpose which is different than the purpose of the other taymey. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
Am 11.11.2021 um 14:32 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
I still don't understand, and perhaps it's because I'm trying to find a greek/english word for {taymey}. So let's approach this differently.
I'm actually not sure what your problem is with this, especially since "prologue" and "epilogue" are both of greek origin. {taymey} is part of a book that is not part of the main contents. You could probable even read and understand the story without looking at the {taymey}. You might see it as a "frame", or as "additional information". In most cases, the taymey are shorter than the book itself. Look at this page of contents: bI'reS taymey <-- introduction telling you to read the book chapter 1 <-- story begins here chapter 2 chapter 3 chapter 4 <-- story ends here bertlham taymey <-- final word outside the story HommaH <-- appendix with additional information, like a glossary Does that help? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/AliceInWonderland
Here's how {taymey} was described in the qep'a' 2020 materials: Prologue is {bI'reS taymey} and epilogue is {bertlham taymey}. But it's really more complicated. {taymey} is a section of a book or play or the like that's separate from the main portion of the work. It's seldom used without {bI'reS} ("beginning") or {bertlham} ("end") unless everyone already knows what the discussion is about (so, for example, you could say {bI'reS taymey} once and then, after that in the same discussion about the same thing, you don't have to include {bI'reS} each time). Despite its description, {taymey} is not used for the appendix of a work. A {taymey} contextualizes the main work; an appendix [see {HommaH}] is considered supplemental. Maltz thought that this word was a remnant of the way stories used to be told orally, since they'd begin and end with some sort of ritual ({tay}), the details of which are lost. Even though {taymey} ends with the {-mey} "plural" suffix, {taymey} is a frozen form and is considered singular. It's okay to say {taymeymey} should the need arise. -- Voragh ------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of Lieven L. Litaer Am 11.11.2021 um 14:32 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
I still don't understand, and perhaps it's because I'm trying to find a greek/english word for {taymey}. So let's approach this differently.
I'm actually not sure what your problem is with this, especially since "prologue" and "epilogue" are both of greek origin. {taymey} is part of a book that is not part of the main contents. You could probable even read and understand the story without looking at the {taymey}. You might see it as a "frame", or as "additional information". In most cases, the taymey are shorter than the book itself. Look at this page of contents: bI'reS taymey <-- introduction telling you to read the book chapter 1 <-- story begins here chapter 2 chapter 3 chapter 4 <-- story ends here bertlham taymey <-- final word outside the story HommaH <-- appendix with additional information, like a glossary
On 11/11/2021 10:59 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
A {taymey} contextualizes the main work; an appendix [see {HommaH}] is considered supplemental.
In that case, a *taymey* is only those front matters that set you up for the main work and those back matters that summarize what you've just read. None of the rest of the supplemental stuff is a *taymey.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 11/11/2021 8:32 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
janSIy:
so it seems Klingons think even more strongly about them as being separate from the narrative itself charghwI': t’s a supportive add-on, not part of the main thing divided into chapters. Does that help? I still don't understand, and perhaps it's because I'm trying to find a greek/english word for {taymey}.
In English, we have the phrases /front matter/ and /back matter/ (or /end matter/) that refer to the sections that come before and after the main body of the text, respectively. Front matter may consist of an introduction, a foreword, a preface, a title page, a table of contents, and so on. Back matter may include an afterword, an index, a bibliography, a glossary, charts and tables, and so on. The front matter and the back matter together are all of the *taymeymey* of a book.
Could we assume that a {taymey} is something broader that just a chapter? That perhaps it could be many chapters taken as a whole, as long as these chapters collectively were about the same subject?
No. Size and scope are not what define a *taymey.* It is about whether it is the main body of the text or another piece in support of the main body.
But if that's the case, then perhaps a {taymey} could be a number of paragraphs within a chapter, provided that they dealt with a specific subject, a subject different than that of the rest of the paragraphs of that chapter.
No. Paragraphs in the main body of a text that are more specific than other paragraphs are still part of the main body, and so are not *taymeymey.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
In English, we have the phrases front matter and back matter (or end matter) that refer to the sections that come before and after the main body of the text, respectively. Front matter may consist of an introduction, a foreword, a preface, a title page, a table of contents, and so on. Back matter may include an afterword, an index, a bibliography, a glossary, charts and tables, and so on. The front matter and the back matter together are all of the taymeymey of a book.
I didn't know all this about front matter and back matter. I thought there was just the prologue, epilogue, and that's it. Now everything became clear. Thanks. lieven:
Does that help?
Yeah, we're cool. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
Am 11.11.2021 um 14:12 schrieb Will Martin:
Perhaps in a book {taymey} would be a forward, introduction, afterward, or appendix.
Sorry for nitpicking, and I might be wrong, but isn't that called "foreword" instead of "forward"? I'm serious, rally, I don't know. I've seen that in books sometimes and I'm really not sure if it's a typo or really the same. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/Taymey
On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 07:16, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 11.11.2021 um 14:12 schrieb Will Martin:
Perhaps in a book {taymey} would be a forward, introduction, afterward, or appendix.
Sorry for nitpicking, and I might be wrong, but isn't that called "foreword" instead of "forward"?
I'm serious, rally, I don't know. I've seen that in books sometimes and I'm really not sure if it's a typo or really the same.
Yes, it's a common misspelling. A short introduction to a book that goes before the main contents is a "fore-word" (as in "word"s that go be"fore"). It's pronounced the same way as "forward" (to go to"ward" the front), which is why they're often confused. (A good name for a TNG-themed bookstore would be "Ten Foreword".) -- De'vID
participants (7)
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De'vID -
janSIy . -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin