For the translation of the intro of a famous German children TV show I have asked Marc Okrand how I'd best name their main characters which are a mouse and an elephant. Okrand talked to Maltz and replied with the following. It's not really a new word, but at least some canon spelling of a terran animal. --------------------------------------- Lieven — I think {Qa'Hom} is okay for "mouse." And Maltz wasn't aware of any native Klingon elephant-like animal. So go with a Klingon version of Federation Standard. How about {'e'levan}? - Marc --------------------------------------- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Tuesday 21 Mar 2017 14:55:08 Lieven wrote:
For the translation of the intro of a famous German children TV show I have asked Marc Okrand how I'd best name their main characters which are a mouse and an elephant. Okrand talked to Maltz and replied with the following. It's not really a new word, but at least some canon spelling of a terran animal.
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Lieven —
I think {Qa'Hom} is okay for "mouse."
And Maltz wasn't aware of any native Klingon elephant-like animal. So go with a Klingon version of Federation Standard. How about {'e'levan}?
- Marc
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Now the video of this intro seems to be available: http://www1.wdr.de/kinder/tv/die-sendung-mit-der-maus/video-vorspann-maus-kl... Is there a transcript available for those with hearing as bad as mine? Who narrated it? qathlo', mupwI'
On 3/26/2017 4:25 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
On Tuesday 21 Mar 2017 14:55:08 Lieven wrote:
For the translation of the intro of a famous German children TV show I have asked Marc Okrand how I'd best name their main characters which are a mouse and an elephant. Okrand talked to Maltz and replied with the following. It's not really a new word, but at least some canon spelling of a terran animal.
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Lieven —
I think {Qa'Hom} is okay for "mouse."
And Maltz wasn't aware of any native Klingon elephant-like animal. So go with a Klingon version of Federation Standard. How about {'e'levan}?
- Marc
--------------------------------------- Now the video of this intro seems to be available: http://www1.wdr.de/kinder/tv/die-sendung-mit-der-maus/video-vorspann-maus-kl...
Is there a transcript available for those with hearing as bad as mine? Who narrated it?
Don't blame yourself; the pronunciation is a valiant attempt, but very difficult to make out. Here is what I heard (and I have no idea what the original German is, nor would I understand it if I did). Each line is ended with a pause. QaghmeH wojmeH je lutmey DaHjaj nom jul He wItlha'qu' Alexander tera' velqa' chImpu' pumlaw'bogh tera' pegh tlhom chum Hutlhbogh jajmey'e' 'ej net Sov nutlhej /mawS 'elevan/ je The speaker somewhat skips over *qaghwI'* and seems to have trouble with *Qay* and *tlhay.* His cadence is also difficult to follow, though he clearly understands what he's saying. The translator chose not to use *Qa'Hom* for /mouse./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 26.03.2017 um 18:33 schrieb SuStel:
Don't blame yourself; the pronunciation is a valiant attempt, but very difficult to make out.
Thanks for your opinion on my pronunciation. ;-) I've noticed that Klingon is hard to understand in general, and even more difficult with background sound or music. When I held a five minute speech entirley in Klingon at the qepHom'a', Marc Okrand said that he understood each word, so I don't see a problem with my pronunciation.
Here is what I heard (and I have no idea what the original German is, nor would I understand it if I did). Each line is ended with a pause.
This may be confusing if one doesn't know what this is about. This intro explains what happens during the episode. Using punctuation makes it more visible: DaHjaj: - wa' - cha' - wej You almost got everything correct:
QaghmeH wojmeH je lutmey
{HaghmeH ghojmeH ja lutmey} "Stories for learning and for laughing"
Alexander tera' velqa' chImpu'
{tInqu'}: Alexander's very large earth replica.
The speaker somewhat skips over *qaghwI'* and seems to have trouble with *Qay* and *tlhay.*
I have no trouble with Qay and tlhay, and blame the music for the bad understanding :-P
His cadence is also difficult to follow,
This may be related to the fact that each line is not a sentence but matches the images.
though he clearly understands what he's saying.
tlhIngan Hol vIjatlhlaH net Sov.
The translator chose not to use *Qa'Hom* for /mouse./
Yes, that is true. Since Okrand could not provide a word for elephant, I decided to leave both words untranslated being names, which happens very often when they use other languages (which do have words for those animals). You can read the entire text including some comments on the Klingon language Wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/DieSendungMitDerMaus -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
On 3/26/2017 2:59 PM, Lieven wrote:
QaghmeH wojmeH je lutmey
{HaghmeH ghojmeH ja lutmey} "Stories for learning and for laughing"
HaghmeH 'ej ghojmeH lutmey or HaghmeH lutmey 'ej ghojmeH unless you're specifically mimicking the odd grammar of *Qoy qeylIS puqloD.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 26.03.2017 um 22:00 schrieb SuStel:
unless you're specifically mimicking the odd grammar of *Qoy qeylIS puqloD.*
Yes, indeed, now I think about it... that song may have influenced me a bit. :-) Let's pretend it was intentionally; poetic freedom *haha* -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/DieSendungMitDerMaus
Few days ago, I sent this bit of Okrand's message to the list, because somebody asked for it.
And Maltz wasn't aware of any native Klingon elephant-like animal. So go with a Klingon version of Federation Standard. How about {'e'levan}?
I have not forwarded this immediately when I received it, because in my opinion, this was no real word; It's just a suggestion for how to pronounce that Terran animal. Okrand even adds a question mark, so he seems not sure himself what do with it. But through the years I was told so often to immediately forward what we get, so I did it, after somebody asked me to publish it. Now on Facebook, our good friend and experience Klingonist SuStel started to argue it is not a canon word, just an English word prounced with a Klingon accent. Well, according to our self-inducted guidelines, canon means everything coming from Okrand. From this, the word is canon now. The new words list even has {'o} listed for "oh". If you prefer to say "it's only a transcription", then you have to reject every fruit and every country name we have learned lately, e.g. 'epIl, QISmaS, 'aSralya', raSya', qo'la', ray' tIr, tomat, meyS, Sutra'ber, 'anyan, raSber, gharlIq, pItSa', pIlam ... etc. I will use {'e'levan} now when talking about elephants, because that's how Okrand suggested it. That's the game we play. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 3/27/2017 8:10 AM, Lieven wrote:
Now on Facebook, our good friend and experience Klingonist SuStel started to argue it is not a canon word, just an English word prounced with a Klingon accent.
WRONG WRONG WRONG. You wanna know why I argue with you? This is why I argue with you. You don't actually read what I write; you reduce what I say to nonsense. I said there's the canon of everything Okrand says about Klingon, and there's the canon of what is recognized by Klingons as Klingon. I said there are three categories of canon: native Klingon words, loan words that have become Klingon, and on-the-spot phonetic adaptations. Okrand specifically said that you should use the latter for /elephant:/ an on-the-spot "Klingon version of Federation Standard." He said to Klingon-ify an English word. Other words like *pItSa'* and *'epIl* fall into one of the two latter categories: loan words and phonetic adaptations. I accept them as canonical, but I cannot identify whether they are loan words that Klingons would recognize or merely on-the-spot phonetic adaptations. And neither can you. So is *'e'levan* THE way to say /elephant/ in Klingon? No. It's just a SUGGESTION on how a Klingon might pronounce an English word if he weren't going to try very hard to get English pronunciation right. Is *'e'levan* a canonical word? Depends what you mean. Most people will see "canonical word" and assume that means it's THE way to say the word, but that's not the case. It's canonical in that Okrand typed it; it's not canonical in the sense that it should appear on the New Words List as THE way you say /elephant/ in Klingon. I know you like to see yourself as the Prophet of Okrandian Canon, but try to read his words a little closer before expounding upon them, and mine before you start arguing with them. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 27 March 2017 at 15:32, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 3/27/2017 8:10 AM, Lieven wrote:
Now on Facebook, our good friend and experience Klingonist SuStel started to argue it is not a canon word, just an English word prounced with a Klingon accent.
WRONG WRONG WRONG. You wanna know why I argue with you? This is why I argue with you. You don't actually read what I write; you reduce what I say to nonsense.
I said there's the canon of everything Okrand says about Klingon, and there's the canon of what is recognized by Klingons as Klingon. I said there are three categories of canon: native Klingon words, loan words that have become Klingon, and on-the-spot phonetic adaptations. Okrand specifically said that you should use the latter for elephant: an on-the-spot "Klingon version of Federation Standard." He said to Klingon-ify an English word.
Other words like pItSa' and 'epIl fall into one of the two latter categories: loan words and phonetic adaptations. I accept them as canonical, but I cannot identify whether they are loan words that Klingons would recognize or merely on-the-spot phonetic adaptations. And neither can you.
FWIW, I draw the same distinction as SuStel. Also, {'e'levan} and {mauS} appear to be names (which just happen to also be words in English), so that makes them different from {'epIl naH} or {pItSa' chab}. Note that in the examples we've seen of Klingon terms which are loan words from English, the borrowed term is followed by a word to indicate what type of object it is: {Sutra'ber naH}, {'anyan 'oQqar}, {bama Hol}, and so on. Klingon seems to be stricter than English (or German) with regards to indicating noun type. For example, in English, "English", "French", and "German" can be either languages or people, whereas in Klingon, {tlhIngan}, {romuluSngan}, {vulqangan} are people, and {tlhIngan Hol}, {romuluS Hol}, and {vulqan Hol} are languages. The fact that {'e'levan} and {mauS} are not rendered as {'e'levan Sargh'a'} and {mauS Qa'Hom} (or however a Klingon would classify such animals) would indicate that {'e'levan} is seen as a proper name here, not a loan word. -- De'vID
Am 28.03.2017 um 12:14 schrieb De'vID:
FWIW, I draw the same distinction as SuStel.
Also, {'e'levan} and {mauS} appear to be names (which just happen to
Just as a neutral side note, for the record: "mauS" is not from Okrand, {'e'levan} is.
Hol} are languages. The fact that {'e'levan} and {mauS} are not rendered as {'e'levan Sargh'a'} and {mauS Qa'Hom}
further: Okrand wote that {Qa'Hom} is fine for "mouse".
Klingon would classify such animals) would indicate that {'e'levan} is seen as a proper name here, not a loan word.
That's why I did not post the message in the first place. I prefer I had not forwarded this, but it's the lists's policy to share anything from Okrand. Maybe someone can ask him, I will not. I don't want to appear as the prophet of canon. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh
Isn't the Qa'Hom shown in Star Trek: Klingon a ligonian titmouse (lIghon Qa'Hom), though? It's probably similar to a Kronosian Qa'Hom, but it might differ slightly. //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 14:55 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] elephant For the translation of the intro of a famous German children TV show I have asked Marc Okrand how I'd best name their main characters which are a mouse and an elephant. Okrand talked to Maltz and replied with the following. It's not really a new word, but at least some canon spelling of a terran animal. --------------------------------------- Lieven — I think {Qa'Hom} is okay for "mouse." And Maltz wasn't aware of any native Klingon elephant-like animal. So go with a Klingon version of Federation Standard. How about {'e'levan}? - Marc --------------------------------------- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 07.02.2018 um 16:46 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
Isn't the Qa'Hom shown in Star Trek: Klingon a ligonian titmouse (lIghon Qa'Hom), though? It's probably similar to a Kronosian Qa'Hom, but it might differ slightly.
I'm not sure that it IS one, but the accompanying file says: "little animal (eg, ligonian titmouse)" "eg" usually stands for "example". I won't try to interpret. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Cursing
On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 07.02.2018 um 16:46 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
Isn't the Qa'Hom shown in Star Trek: Klingon a ligonian titmouse (lIghon Qa'Hom), though? It's probably similar to a Kronosian Qa'Hom, but it might differ slightly.
I'm not sure that it IS one, but the accompanying file says:
"little animal (eg, ligonian titmouse)"
"eg" usually stands for "example". I won't try to interpret.
And a "Ligonian titmouse" might just be a Ligonian creature that /resembles/ a *Qa'Hom* as a cat resembles a *vIghro'.* There's really no point in trying to pin it down. At least we know something about what a *Qa'Hom* is. You tell me what an *'er* is first, and then maybe we can come back to this. :) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
You tell me what an 'er is first, and then maybe we can come back to this. :)
Oh, that's easy: An «'er» is something that presumably resembles something that presumably resembles a Tasmanian devil in some way. Source: «naQ 'er» = "brush devil" (qurgh, qep'a' 24 New Words, 7/29/2017): Presumably this is a type of {'er}. "Brush devil" is not a direct translation of {naQ 'er}, and the Klingon words {naQ} and {'er} have nothing to do with brushes or devils. The Federation Standard name was an invention of, probably, the first Federation Standard speaker who saw one of these things and reported about it. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 5:05:16 PM To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] elephant On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote: Am 07.02.2018 um 16:46 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck: Isn't the Qa'Hom shown in Star Trek: Klingon a ligonian titmouse (lIghon Qa'Hom), though? It's probably similar to a Kronosian Qa'Hom, but it might differ slightly. I'm not sure that it IS one, but the accompanying file says: "little animal (eg, ligonian titmouse)" "eg" usually stands for "example". I won't try to interpret. And a "Ligonian titmouse" might just be a Ligonian creature that resembles a Qa'Hom as a cat resembles a vIghro'. There's really no point in trying to pin it down. At least we know something about what a Qa'Hom is. You tell me what an 'er is first, and then maybe we can come back to this. :) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 11:05:16AM -0500, SuStel wrote:
On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 07.02.2018 um 16:46 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
Isn't the Qa'Hom shown in Star Trek: Klingon a ligonian titmouse (lIghon Qa'Hom), though? It's probably similar to a Kronosian Qa'Hom, but it might differ slightly.
I'm not sure that it IS one, but the accompanying file says:
"little animal (eg, ligonian titmouse)"
"eg" usually stands for "example". I won't try to interpret.
And a "Ligonian titmouse" might just be a Ligonian creature that /resembles/ a *Qa'Hom* as a cat resembles a *vIghro'.* There's really no point in trying to pin it down. At least we know something about what a *Qa'Hom* is. You tell me what an *'er* is first, and then maybe we can come back to this. :)
Since there are a number of non-native English speakers on this list, and nobody has mentioned it yet, I think it bears pointing out that a "titmouse" is a bird, not a kind of mouse. I suspect that {Qa'Hom} can refer to a much wider variety of creatures than the small rodents that one might picture after hearing that {Qa'Hom} was used to translate "mouse". - SapIr
participants (7)
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De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Jeremy Silver -
kechpaja -
Lieven -
Lieven L. Litaer
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SuStel