For our Master of Ca'Non !
tlhIngan ghe'naQ bej pab po'wI'; 'ej ghaH retlhDaq ba' tlhIngan ghojwI'.. a klingon grammarian watches klingon opera; and next to him sits a klingon student.. vaj, ghojwI'vaD jatlh pab po'wI'; ghantoH pIn'a' lot'a' DaSov'a' ? ghel po'wI' have you ever heard of the tragedy of the master of Ca'Non ? asks the grammarian ghobe'; jang ghojwI'.. no, replies the student.. ngoDvam vIpIHpu'; SoHvaD lutvam lujatlhqangbe' ghantoH pabbe'wI'pu'. I thought so; its not a story Ca'Non breakers would tell you. tlhIngan Hol wIch 'oH.. its a klingon legend.. tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI' ghaHpu' ghantoH pIn'a''e'; tlhoy valpu'mo', tlhoy vaQpu'mo', 'ej tlhoy vumta'mo', tlhIngan Hol ghantoH naQ ta chenmoHlaHpu', 'ej tlhoy varHa'pu'mo', latlhpu'vaD ghantoH taDaj bonpu'. The master of Ca'Non was a speaker of klingon, so wise, so thorough, that he managed to create an archive of the entire Ca'Non of klingon; and because he was generous, he always shared his Ca'Non archive with others. Dojqu'bej ghantoH SovDaj.. he had such a knowledge of Ca'Non.. meqvammo', vabDot ghojwI'pu' tlhIb QaHlaH, 'ej ghaHmo', vabDot jatlhwI'pu'na' mojlaH.. he was even able to turn incompetent students into masters.. (jatlh ghojwI':) (says the student:) tlhIbwI'pu'na'vaD, pIn'a' mojmoHlaHbej'a' ? tlhIbwI'pu'na'vaD, ghantoH ngeb nompuq junmoHlaHbej'a' ? he could actually save people from non-canonic influences ? (jang pab po'wI':) (the grammarian replies:) laH law' lojmIt'a' 'oH tlhIngan Hol ghantoH Sar'e'; taQ 'op net Har.. the Ca'Non side of klingon is a pathway to many abilities; some considered to be unnatural.. nuq 'oHpu' SanDaj'e' ? ghel ghojwI' what happened to him ? asks the student vaj, jang pab po'wi': and replies the grammarian: Do'Ha', boQwI'DajvaD Hoch 'otHa', vabDot taDaj chaw' ngoq 'otHa'. vaj, QongtaHvIS, taDaj naw'meH boQwI'Daj, nIDta', 'ej bong, taDaj ghItlhHa' ! Unfortunately, he revealed everything to his apprentice, including the password of his Ca'Non archive; so while he was sleeping, in attempt to access his master's archive, the apprentice accidentally deleted it ! wejpuH.. ironic.. tlhoy latlhpu' tavaD ghaqlaHpu', 'a tagha' ngabpu' taDaj'e' ! he was able to contribute so much to the archives of others, but eventually it was *his* archive that vanished ! 'ej ghel ghojwI': so asks the student: laH'a'vam ghojlaH'a' vay' ? qIt'a' ? is it possible to learn this power ? not SoHvaD laH'a'vam lughojmoH ghantoH pabbe'wI'pu'.. jangpu' pab po'wI' not from Ca'NoN breakers.. replied the grammarian.. ~ m. qunen'oS for sharing your archive with us, we thank you Ca'Non master !
I don't have my canon notes with me right now; I think it may have been HQ Dec 98 that talked about verbs of speech. IIRC... This:
ghobe'; jang ghojwI'.. no, replies the student..
should be: jang ghojwI', jatlh [ghobe']. He can jang, jach, tlhup; but the quote goes with a jatlh. Same goes for the other lines in that email. - DloraH
{tlhoy} means “too much”. I’m not sure that’s what you intend here. Sent from my iPad
On Apr 17, 2019, at 6:12 PM, DloraH <seruq@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I don't have my canon notes with me right now; I think it may have been HQ Dec 98 that talked about verbs of speech.
IIRC... This:
ghobe'; jang ghojwI'.. no, replies the student..
should be:
jang ghojwI', jatlh [ghobe'].
He can jang, jach, tlhup; but the quote goes with a jatlh.
Same goes for the other lines in that email.
- DloraH _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
DloraH:
He can jang, jach, tlhup; but the quote goes with a jatlh.
I didn't know that; Is this something certain ? charghwI':
{tlhoy} means "too much"
It also means "overly, to an excessive degree, excessively". The intended meaning was "because he was overly generous/because he worked excessively/and so on.." I can't see how it is fails to convey the intended meaning. Could you explain further why you find it isn't appropriate ? ~ m. qunen'oS one Ca'Non to rule them all..
On Apr 18, 2019, at 04:07, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
DloraH:
He can jang, jach, tlhup; but the quote goes with a jatlh.
I didn't know that; Is this something certain ?
It’s from the HQ 7.4 interview: http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-holqed-07-4.txt Note, however, that the two canonical long form jokes from Power Klingon don’t use jatlh to mark the quotes.
Holy Hell ! So, that's what's happening ! Now I understand; in the past I'd noticed, that whenever Rhona replied by quoting other people, she wrote (if I remember correctly): jangpu' mayqel, jatlh.. I had wondered then, why this "long version", instead of a simpler {jang mayqel..}. And I'd asked then too, if my mind, for mysterious reasons, didn't wander off to kangaroos happily jumping around. But, luckily, now I understand ! Better late than never. And, since it came up, if anyone knows how to say "kangaroo" in klingon, now is as good a time as any to enlighten us.. ~ m. qunen'oS ironic.. a mailing list of the klingon language, where 99% of the posts are written in english..
Excessive, overly, to an excessive degree, too much... All of these terms imply that there’s an action that might have a positive effect up to a point, but if you do it more than that, it has a negative effect, and you have crossed the line and created this negative effect. “Too wise” is a particularly odd phrase. Think of it like “I ate too much; I ate excessively, I ate to an excessive degree. Now, my stomach aches and I feel uncomfortably stuffed, and I feel regret that I am not achieving my goal of losing weight. I might even be on the verge of throwing up. I’m miserable because I ate too much.” Or, “I drank too much.” I did embarrassing things I would never do sober. I passed out. I woke up in the hospital, having nearly died from alcohol poisoning. {tlhoy HIq vItlhutlh.} One tends to regret having done anything to the degree that is appropriate for {tlhoy}. It doesn’t just mean “a lot”. It means “too much”. The word itself is a pun on the English word “cloy”, which refers to excessive sweetness — when something is so sweet that the sweetness is a bad thing; something so sweet you can’t eat it without making a “yuck” face. Sent from my iPad
On Apr 18, 2019, at 5:07 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
charghwI':
{tlhoy} means "too much"
It also means "overly, to an excessive degree, excessively".
The intended meaning was "because he was overly generous/because he worked excessively/and so on.."
I can't see how it is fails to convey the intended meaning. Could you explain further why you find it isn't appropriate ?
~ m. qunen'oS one Ca'Non to rule them all..
hmm I see. So how would you propose expressing the "too much" of the good kind ? By the -qu' ? ~ m. qunen'oS
-chu’ Sent from my iPhone. Will
On Apr 20, 2019, at 7:31 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
hmm I see.
So how would you propose expressing the "too much" of the good kind ?
By the -qu' ?
~ m. qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I rethought this, and I can't say I'm convinced, why tlhoy is inappropriate for this purpose. Lets say I study for an exam, and I study excessively for it. Meaning, that in order to study I lose friends, I alienate my girlfriend, and my life goes down the drain. Why couldn't I say {tlhoy jIHaDta'} ? ~ m. qunen'oS ironic.. people willing to say anything in english about the slightest in klingon, yet unable to say the slightest in klingon about anything in english..
I’m not saying you can’t say {tlhoy vIHaDpu’}. Unless it was your intentional goal to accomplish destroying your relationships and wrecking your life, I do suggest that {-ta’} is an odd choice. Sent from my iPhone. charghwI’
On Apr 21, 2019, at 3:00 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I rethought this, and I can't say I'm convinced, why tlhoy is inappropriate for this purpose.
Lets say I study for an exam, and I study excessively for it. Meaning, that in order to study I lose friends, I alienate my girlfriend, and my life goes down the drain.
Why couldn't I say {tlhoy jIHaDta'} ?
~ m. qunen'oS ironic.. people willing to say anything in english about the slightest in klingon, yet unable to say the slightest in klingon about anything in english..
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/21/2019 11:45 AM, Will Martin wrote:
I’m not saying you can’t say {tlhoy vIHaDpu’}. Unless it was your intentional goal to accomplish destroying your relationships and wrecking your life, I do suggest that {-ta’} is an odd choice.
The intentionality of *-ta'* applies to having set out to accomplish studying, not having set out to do too much. And *tlhoy* doesn't automatically lead to ruined lives. *tlhoy vIHaDta'* might be said if I spent so much time studying that I didn't get a good night's sleep, for instance. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I brought up the inappropriate use of {tlhoy} because the original text using it clearly didn’t match the English translation originally ascribed to it, and ever since then, responses have posited increasingly unlikely situations in which it could conceivably be possible for it to be acceptable. So, what part of “too much” don’t you guys not understand? Sent from my iPhone. charghwI’
On Apr 21, 2019, at 12:16 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 4/21/2019 11:45 AM, Will Martin wrote: I’m not saying you can’t say {tlhoy vIHaDpu’}. Unless it was your intentional goal to accomplish destroying your relationships and wrecking your life, I do suggest that {-ta’} is an odd choice. The intentionality of -ta' applies to having set out to accomplish studying, not having set out to do too much.
And tlhoy doesn't automatically lead to ruined lives. tlhoy vIHaDta' might be said if I spent so much time studying that I didn't get a good night's sleep, for instance.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/22/2019 9:00 AM, Will Martin wrote:
I brought up the inappropriate use of {tlhoy} because the original text using it clearly didn’t match the English translation originally ascribed to it, and ever since then, responses have posited increasingly unlikely situations in which it could conceivably be possible for it to be acceptable.
So, what part of “too much” don’t you guys not understand?
chaq wIyajchu' 'ej bo'Dagh'a' Dalo' 'e' wIbot. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Next time you see Okrand, ask him about {tlhoy}. I dare you. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 22, 2019, at 9:12 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 4/22/2019 9:00 AM, Will Martin wrote:
I brought up the inappropriate use of {tlhoy} because the original text using it clearly didn’t match the English translation originally ascribed to it, and ever since then, responses have posited increasingly unlikely situations in which it could conceivably be possible for it to be acceptable.
So, what part of “too much” don’t you guys not understand?
chaq wIyajchu' 'ej bo'Dagh'a' Dalo' 'e' wIbot.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/22/2019 11:36 AM, Will Martin wrote:
Next time you see Okrand, ask him about {tlhoy}. I dare you.
Ask him what? It means /too much,/ not /oh my god my life is in ruins!/ Your initial description was good, and then you went too far. Perhaps you were demonstrating the concept of /too much?/ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
This is what I was responding to: *************************************************************** tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI' ghaHpu' ghantoH pIn'a''e'; tlhoy valpu'mo', tlhoy vaQpu'mo', 'ej tlhoy vumta'mo', tlhIngan Hol ghantoH naQ ta chenmoHlaHpu', 'ej tlhoy varHa'pu'mo', latlhpu'vaD ghantoH taDaj bonpu'. The master of Ca'Non was a speaker of klingon, so wise, so thorough, that he managed to create an archive of the entire Ca'Non of klingon; and because he was generous, he always shared his Ca'Non archive with others. *************************************************************** I do not believe that this use of {tlhoy} in the Klingon works to produce the meaning implied by the English translation involved. Ever since, there’s been a weird, slippery slope argument that never gets back to this simple observation that in this case, the author clearly misunderstands what {tlhoy} is supposed to mean. {tlhoy valpu’mo’} does not mean “so wise” because {tlhoy} does not mean “very much” or “impressively” or “to an extreme degree”. It means “to an excessive degree”. There’s a difference between “an extreme degree” and “an excessive degree”, and that’s the core element of meaning of the word {tlhoy}. It’s the thing that the original author obviously didn’t understand. He wants it to simply mean “a whole lot”, ignoring that it really does mean “too much”, and if you try to shave away the outer edge of meaning from “excessive” and “too much” in order to also cover “a lot” or “to an extreme degree”, then you basically don’t understand {tlhoy}. That was never acknowledged, and nobody else on this list bothered to respond to it, implying, I guess, that it’s close enough to right that we should just let it slide without comment, while getting into impassioned arguments plenty of other perhaps less obvious points of meaning. So, we go on and on and on with “Well, maybe this is or isn’t right, but if we change it a little for some other special situation, it’s still right, right?” over and over again, kicking the same dead horse without ever acknowledging that, well, actually, here in the beginning, this was definitely misusing the word {tlhoy}. Until that is fully and clearly acknowledged, I’ve completely lost interest in the topic. Misuse it as you like. Don’t trust my opinion. Ignore any skill or authority I’ve exhibited over the past few decades on this list. Insist that you know this word better than I do. Make up all the special situations that you like to justify your obvious mistake, pretending that it wasn’t one and just continue arguing for the simple meanness of it. The resulting text will, over time, stand or fall on its own. If you really think this is just my mistaken opinion, the long view will reveal who has a better perspective on this. I don’t really care if I went “too far” trying to get a very stubborn person who clearly erred to understand the thing he still shows no evidence of having the slightest glimmer of comprehending. Amuse yourself, as you choose. A well-intended person should not have to work this hard to offer a simple spark of insight to the ignorant. It does not speak well for this list that it does. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 22, 2019, at 11:54 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 4/22/2019 11:36 AM, Will Martin wrote:
Next time you see Okrand, ask him about {tlhoy}. I dare you. Ask him what? It means too much, not oh my god my life is in ruins!
Your initial description was good, and then you went too far. Perhaps you were demonstrating the concept of too much?
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/22/2019 12:29 PM, Will Martin wrote:
I don’t really care if I went “too far”
quSDaq bIba'.
trying to get a very stubborn person who clearly erred to understand the thing he still shows no evidence of having the slightest glimmer of comprehending.
Watch this. It's pretty neat. "This very stubborn person doesn't have the slightest glimmer of comprehending it." Insulting. "He doesn't understand." Not insulting. Cool, huh?
A well-intended person should not have to work this hard to offer a simple spark of insight to the ignorant.
bIbechchu' chay' 'e' DaSIQ, 'o valwI'? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
'op ret.. charghwI':
I don’t admire myself for this. It makes me unpopular. It’s the thing that has repeatedly driven me to take a break and leave the list for extended periods in order to stop being this confrontational person that I really am not in any other context. The passion is inexplicable, and counterproductive. jIH: jIHvaD, qay'be'; naHchu'ghach vItIv, net Sov. vaj yIvuS'eghQo' ! ghoHIv.. ghoHIvqu' jay' !!! For me it isn't a problem; after all I enjoy negativity. So don't restrain yourself ! Let us have it.. Let us have it real good !!!
DaHjaj: charghwI':
don’t really care if I went “too far” trying to get a very stubborn person who clearly erred to understand the thing he still shows no evidence of having the slightest glimmer of comprehending.
qeSwIj Dalajta'mo', jIQuch ! because you took my advice, I'm glad ! 'ej, sidious darth mu'mey vIjatlhqa' net chaw'chugh.. and, if I'm to repeat the words of darth sidious.. QaQ.. QaQ.. DuchIq muSmeH HoS; 'e' yIchaw' ! good.. good.. let the hate flow through you ! hahahahahahahahaha ~ m. qunen'oS Ca'Non holy Ca'non
participants (5)
-
Daniel Dadap -
DloraH -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin