chay' "puppy" wImughnIS ? ngavyaw' ghu ? ghu ngavyaw' ? *puppy* ? ~ Qa'yIn
FYI in 2019 Lieven translated "Sleep Tight, Little Wolf" (a children’s book by Ulrich Renz) as {Qongchu’ ngavyaw’ mach}. Was this a wolf cub (i.e. a puppy) or just a small wolf (i.e. the runt of the litter)? -- Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: mayqel qunen'oS Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:21 AM chay' "puppy" wImughnIS ? ngavyaw' ghu ? ghu ngavyaw' ? *puppy* ?
Am 13.10.2020 um 16:03 schrieb Steven Boozer:
FYI in 2019 Lieven translated "Sleep Tight, Little Wolf" (a children’s book by Ulrich Renz) as {Qongchu’ ngavyaw’ mach}. Was this a wolf cub (i.e. a puppy) or just a small wolf (i.e. the runt of the litter)?
I chose that translation because it was really referring to size only. Age was not considered in the story. This "little wolf" they speak about is a puppet, i.e. a teddy bear like toy. In addition, I wanted to keep in line with other translations which all used the term "small x". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/SleepTightLittleWolf
SuStel:
ngavyaw’ ghu = canine’s baby or baby of the canine = puppy ghu ngavyaw’ = baby’s canine or canine of the baby = baby’s pet You forget the more general genitive interpretation of the noun-noun construction. I'm not going to address this question directly, because baby and canine are both nouns and adjectives, and this confuses the translations. Instead, I'm going to translate an idea that deals strictly in nouns. How about a student who is a child? ghojwI' puq student child puq ghojwI' child student Which is it? Is it a child (head noun) of the type student (modifying noun)? Or is it a student (head noun) of the type child (modifying noun)? It's both. Either is correct. It's a child who is a student and a student who is a child. So, completely ignoring semantics, is it ngavyaw' ghu canine baby or ghu ngavyaw' baby canine ? It's both. Either is correct. It's a baby that is a canine, and it's a canine that is a baby.
maj. De'vam vIyaj. 'a latlh vay''e' qaghel vIneH. "empress" jImugh vIneH. cha' DuH tu'lu': {be' voDleH} {voDleH be'} je, 'ej lughlaw' Hoch. 'a "empress" DamughnIS net jalchugh, nuq 'oH DuH'e' DamaSbogh ? chay' bIwuq ? vuDlIj vISov vIneH. ~ Qa'yIn
On 10/14/2020 8:10 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
maj. De'vam vIyaj. 'a latlh vay''e' qaghel vIneH.
OFF-TOPIC: /It is another something, not something else, I want to ask you./ Not only do you not want *-'e'* here, but you don't need the *vay'* at all. *latlh qaghel vIneH*/I want to ask you another thing./
"empress" jImugh vIneH. cha' DuH tu'lu': {be' voDleH} {voDleH be'} je, 'ej lughlaw' Hoch. 'a "empress" DamughnIS net jalchugh, nuq 'oH DuH'e' DamaSbogh ? chay' bIwuq ?
Barring new information, I favor translating /empress/ as *ta'* or *voDleH.* Alternatively, if these words are exclusively masculine and feminine words exist, I think they would be completely separate words that we haven't heard yet. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I completely agree with SuStel about “empress”. {voDleH be’} looks like “the emperor’s woman/the woman of the emperor”. {be’ voDleH} looks like “the woman’s emperor/the emperor of the woman”, like maybe women have a different emperor than men do? One is the “man’s emperor” and the other is the “woman’s emperor”? Klingons don’t have a separate word for female warriors, yet there are obviously female warriors. Ditto for ambassadors, captains, or any other occupation/rank title. If you want to stress that an emperor is female, you need to describe it in contextually linked statements. You can’t compress that into a single noun phrase in Klingon by any means I know. Basically, if you’ve done whatever it takes to be emperor, your sexual gender is less important to people than your rank. And if the gender of the emperor is really important to you, it becomes important for you to know the emperor very personally, because inappropriate comments or gestures could have undesirable consequences. If we ever get a female president, she won’t be a *presidentress*. She’ll be a president. This is like that. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Oct 14, 2020, at 8:45 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 10/14/2020 8:10 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
maj. De'vam vIyaj. 'a latlh vay''e' qaghel vIneH. OFF-TOPIC: It is another something, not something else, I want to ask you. Not only do you not want -'e' here, but you don't need the vay' at all. latlh qaghel vIneH I want to ask you another thing.
"empress" jImugh vIneH. cha' DuH tu'lu': {be' voDleH} {voDleH be'} je, 'ej lughlaw' Hoch. 'a "empress" DamughnIS net jalchugh, nuq 'oH DuH'e' DamaSbogh ? chay' bIwuq ? Barring new information, I favor translating empress as ta' or voDleH. Alternatively, if these words are exclusively masculine and feminine words exist, I think they would be completely separate words that we haven't heard yet.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 10/14/2020 2:48 PM, Will Martin wrote:
I completely agree with SuStel about “empress”. {voDleH be’} looks like “the emperor’s woman/the woman of the emperor”. {be’ voDleH} looks like “the woman’s emperor/the emperor of the woman”, like maybe women have a different emperor than men do? One is the “man’s emperor” and the other is the “woman’s emperor”?
Klingons don’t have a separate word for female warriors, yet there are obviously female warriors.
Ditto for ambassadors, captains, or any other occupation/rank title.
If you want to stress that an emperor is female, you need to describe it in contextually linked statements. You can’t compress that into a single noun phrase in Klingon by any means I know.
Basically, if you’ve done whatever it takes to be emperor, your sexual gender is less important to people than your rank.
And if the gender of the emperor is really important to you, it becomes important for you to know the emperor very personally, because inappropriate comments or gestures could have undesirable consequences.
If we ever get a female president, she won’t be a *presidentress*. She’ll be a president. This is like that.
No, this is different. /Warrior, ambassador, captain,/ and /president/ are all gender-neutral words in English. An /Emperor/ is male and an empress is female. When we are given two words for /emperor/ in Klingon, it is not automatically the case that those words also mean /empress./ Qa'yIn asked what /I/ would do to translate /empress,/ and that's the question I answered. I didn't answer what I think the correct answer is, because I don't know. The words might be gender neutral, and Okrand simply failed to consider including the feminine translation. There might be different words for /empress./ There might be a modification of the word for /emperor/ to get /empress. /We have reason to believe that political authority is limited by gender in some ways, and we have reason to believe that the concept of an empress is not unknown to Klingons. We do not know anything about whether Klingons deem the rank more important than the gender. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I'm sure this was discussed last year, but for the benefit of those new to the list... (KGT 77f.): Among the songs sung exclusively to or by children is the {najmoHwI'} (literally, "one that causes one to dream)", or lullaby One of these {nachmoHwI'mey} is known: *Qoung vaj macht* "Sleep Little Warrior" (VOY "Human Error") -- sic for {Qong vaj mach}. Two more examples are: qIvo'rIt may'Duj mach smaller version of a K'vort class cruiser (KBoP) mach SuvwI'pu' Warriors are small. (KGT) Aside from {vaj} - no doubt one of the VOYAGER writers just looked it up in TKD - this last example could easily be a line from the lullaby. BTW, there is a word for teddy bear: {mIl'oD ngeb} "fake/counterfeit (sabre) bear". So Little Wolf could be called a {ngavyaw' ngeb}. I rather like the sound of that. Alliteration works well with children. I wonder... Has anyone tried to translate something from Dr. Seuss? -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons ----------------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: Lieven L. Litaer Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 9:56 AM Am 13.10.2020 um 16:03 schrieb [Voragh]:
FYI in 2019 Lieven translated "Sleep Tight, Little Wolf" (a children’s book by Ulrich Renz) as {Qongchu’ ngavyaw’ mach}. Was this a wolf cub (i.e. a puppy) or just a small wolf (i.e. the runt of the litter)?
I chose that translation because it was really referring to size only. Age was not considered in the story. This "little wolf" they speak about is a puppet, i.e. a teddy bear like toy. In addition, I wanted to keep in line with other translations which all used the term "small x".
ngavyaw’ ghu = canine’s baby or baby of the canine = puppy ghu ngavyaw’ = baby’s canine or canine of the baby = baby’s pet *puppy* would be pronounced “poop-pee”, if it were pronounceable at all, given the lack of vowel in the second syllable, since a {y} is never a vowel in Klingon. There is no “uh” sound in Klingon, so it would be difficult to transliterate without making it easily confused with “poppy” *{papIy}*. As human, we think everybody loves puppies, but then, we also think everybody loves tribbles for the same reasons. They just make you feel good to be around them, right? We just want to pick them up and hold them, right? Well, I wouldn’t make any assumptions about the natural response of Klingons to puppies... charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Oct 13, 2020, at 8:20 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
chay' "puppy" wImughnIS ?
ngavyaw' ghu ? ghu ngavyaw' ? *puppy* ?
~ Qa'yIn _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 10/13/2020 10:11 AM, Will Martin wrote:
ngavyaw’ ghu = canine’s baby or baby of the canine = puppy
ghu ngavyaw’ = baby’s canine or canine of the baby = baby’s pet
You forget the more general genitive interpretation of the noun-noun construction. I'm not going to address this question directly, because /baby/ and /canine/ are both nouns and adjectives, and this confuses the translations. Instead, I'm going to translate an idea that deals strictly in nouns. How about a student who is a child? *ghojwI' puq*/student child /*puq ghojwI'*/child student/ Which is it? Is it a child (head noun) of the type /student/ (modifying noun)? Or is it a student (head noun) of the type /child/ (modifying noun)? It's both. Either is correct. It's a child who is a student and a student who is a child. So, completely ignoring semantics, is it *ngavyaw' ghu*/canine baby /or *ghu ngavyaw'*/baby canine /? It's both. Either is correct. It's a baby that is a canine, and it's a canine that is a baby.
*puppy* would be pronounced “poop-pee”, if it were pronounceable at all, given the lack of vowel in the second syllable, since a {y} is never a vowel in Klingon. There is no “uh” sound in Klingon, so it would be difficult to transliterate without making it easily confused with “poppy” *{papIy}*.
Qa'yIn was not proposing to transliterate the word /puppy,/ but instead keep it as a foreign word. But on transliterating /puppy:/ remember that Klingon nouns tend to place stress on the final syllable of the root noun, so *papIy* would sound like "pa-PEE." You can add a glottal stop to draw the stress: *pa'pIy*//"PA-pee." -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (5)
-
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin