Summary: - new word {yI'var} = "therapy" - difference between {DIng} and {jIr} clarified - expanded meaning of {yer ghajwI' chaw'} Hello my dear friends, during a conversation with Marc Okrand, he has revealed some interesting details on some words, even giving us one new useful word. The entire message is also archived on qepHom.de: http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_210322_another_project.html -- begin of message -------------------------------------------- Hi, Lieven — Okay.... here we go... ------------ LL: "partner" - Can {qoch} really work as a "business partner"? It sounds weird to me. MO: Thinking like a Klingon, will making use of {boq} ("alliance, coalition" / "ally with") work? ----------- LL: "therapy" - In the sense of "a procedure to heal somebody". I'm confused that I'm not finding anything. Of course I could say {rachmeH mIw}, but maybe there's an option? The sentence is something like using a name "The Dr-Maltz-Therapy will be successful" but also describing the method: "We present to you the fluoride-therapy." or "the magnetic therapy" or "ultraviolet light therapy" and so on. MO: Perhaps you can just go with {X mIw}, where X is fluoride, magnet, ultraviolet light, etc., as long as it will always be clear from context that {mIw} refers to a health/therapeutic procedure or treatment. If context isn't enough to make things clear, then I'll bother Maltz some more. LL: This could be confusing with the existing word {porgh mIw}, whatever that could be. MO: I don't know what "body therapy" would be either, but I do see how {porgh mIw} could make this confusing. So instead of using {mIw}, go with {yI'var} "treatment, therapy." ----------- LL: What is the difference between {jIr} and {DIng}? MO: Though there's some overlap, {DIng} is generally used for things spinning or rotating continuously or for a long time, while {jIr} is used when the thing rotates partially or once or for a few times. (So you'd use {jIr} or {jIrmoH} for what you might be doing with the steering wheel while the car's tires {DIng}.) ----------- LL: Do I understand correctly that {pIn} means "boss" as in the opposite of employee? "My boss tells me what to do". Right? MO: The short answer is yes, but there doesn't have to be an employer-employee relationship. The {pIn} is the person in charge of something or in control of something. ----------- LL: "patented" as in "The company has unique and patented products." MO: Believe it or not, you can use {yer ghajwI' chaw'}. In Klingon Monopoly, this was used for "title deed," but it can apply to things other than land or property or real estate — it just means the legally recognized right to control something (land, yes, but also technology and perhaps other things). It is often shortened to {yer chaw'}. {yer chaw'}, of course, is a noun. Verbs commonly used when {yer chaw'} is the object are {Suq}, {ghaj}, and even {much}. ----------- LL: "support" - {ngaq} is labeled as "military term" in TKD. Is there a different noun for mental support, as in getting help from "software support" or "personal support"? MO: {boQ} could work. Maybe also {vuy} "be helpful, supportive." ----------- LL: "health" as a noun. This is not a verb in a sentence, it talks about "health products", "personal health" and "Health is important", even stands alone "health". MO: Have you tried wrestling with {pIv} (and constructing short phrases)? [After talking about this, we agreed that {porgh Dotlh} is a good solution for this, although it's not a direct translation for "health".] ----------- LL: product: - A thing that is produced and then sold. The company has several "products". MO: How about {vIqraq}? {vIqraq} is defined as "artifact, work of art," but it's further clarified as: "handicraft, gizmo, gadget, contraption, machine, device, etc. That is, it refers to something manufactured or made." So I think it could be used for a "product" (assuming the product was something physical). ----------- It's not the middle of the night, but, as usual, if you see any typos or anything else weird, let me know. - Marc -- end of message -------------------------------------------- In addition to the above, we talked on the phone to find some solutions. - To talk about a motorcycle, Okrand confirmed that this counts as a land vehicle, i.e. a {puH Duj}. Although a motorcycle looks like a bike, you cannot say {qam Do Duj} because it definitely goes faster than {qam Do}. He accepted my wording {cha' rutlh puH Duj} as "Yes, you can say that". In addition to that, {SeD} would be the verb for riding/driving a motorcycle. - A long and complicated discussion about what would be the best verb for controlling/using a device ended with Okrand's suggestion that {lo'} is probably the most useful verb, avoiding the entire discussion. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Maltz
Am 26.03.2021 um 12:55 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
MO: Thinking like a Klingon, will making use of {boq} ("alliance, coalition" / "ally with") work?
So does 'oqranD ask whether {boq} would work, or does he say that {boq} indeed actually works?
When he asks it this way, it usually means that it does work. It's similar to "Why don't you use xy?" (Of course, in case I would have said NO, he might have found a different word. So he really asks wheter the word would work, but implies that it should.) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Bok
On 3/26/2021 8:09 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 26.03.2021 um 12:55 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
> MO: Thinking like a Klingon, will making > use of {boq} ("alliance, coalition" / "ally > with") work?
So does 'oqranD ask whether {boq} would work, or does he say that {boq} indeed actually works?
When he asks it this way, it usually means that it does work. It's similar to "Why don't you use xy?"
(Of course, in case I would have said NO, he might have found a different word. So he really asks wheter the word would work, but implies that it should.)
He's doing exactly what we do: finding a way to say something using existing tools. He's not decreeing that "this is the way Klingons do it" or even that "Klingon doesn't have that." In other words, don't put "use the word *boq* for business alliances instead of *qoch*" into your personal dictionary. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 6:48 AM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
In addition to the above, we talked on the phone to find some solutions.
- To talk about a motorcycle, Okrand confirmed that this counts as a land vehicle, i.e. a {puH Duj}. Although a motorcycle looks like a bike, you cannot say {qam Do Duj} because it definitely goes faster than {qam Do}.
This is interesting to me. I always figured the phrase {qam Do Duj} for "bicycle" was a sort of calque on "velocipede", but here {qam Do} might be a phrase in its own right. The fastest a person can go without powered assistance, maybe?
Hmm… *qam Do “foot speed” FWIW: qughDo cruising speed wabDo speed of sound gho'Do sublight (speed) Note that these are one word, not two. Also note the longer {wa’ rutlh qam Do Duj} “unicycle” – probably more of a definition, not a translations. (Somehow I can’t imagine Klingon warriors disporting themselves on unicycles!) Voragh From: nIqolay Q On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 6:48 AM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: In addition to the above, we talked on the phone to find some solutions. - To talk about a motorcycle, Okrand confirmed that this counts as a land vehicle, i.e. a {puH Duj}. Although a motorcycle looks like a bike, you cannot say {qam Do Duj} because it definitely goes faster than {qam Do}. This is interesting to me. I always figured the phrase {qam Do Duj} for "bicycle" was a sort of calque on "velocipede", but here {qam Do} might be a phrase in its own right. The fastest a person can go without powered assistance, maybe?
Am 01.04.2021 um 23:19 schrieb Steven Boozer:
Hmm…
*qam Do “foot speed”
I always thought that was a very clear and obvious parsing of the word. What else would it be? [qam {Do Duj}] "speed vessel of the foot?"
FWIW:
qughDo cruising speed wabDo speed of sound gho'Do sublight (speed)
Note that these are one word, not two.
Talking about this, the point of having a space in a compound noun is something that WE had observed ourselves, it was not something that Okrand thought about initially. As Klingon was mainly intended as a spoken language, the space was not important. You would not hear any difference. This is not a direct quote, but that's what Okrand told me. In addition to that, there is a difference in the example of {wab Do}. Now, this is a direct quote: As a spelling convention, {wab Do} "speed of sound" is written as two words. When used as a measurement term ("Mach"), it's written as one word (wabDo). The pronunciation (and, for that matter, meaning) is the same. (qepHom 2016) See also: http://klingon.wiki/En/Spacing -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com
I know that the space isn't that significant for Okrand. That opens up the possibility for nonce expressions like {SolDeS Do} "sail(ing) speed", {SuS Do} "wind speed" or {rapmar Do} "oar/rowing speed" for ships; {rutlh Do} "wheel speed" for various types of wheeled vehicles; etc. Spaces are far more likely when the first element is two words (e.g. {bIQ Duj} ship, {lupwI' mIr} train, {puH Duj} car) or three words (e.g. {qam Do Duj} bicycle) or four words (e.g. {cha' rutlh puH Duj} motorcycle) or even five words (e.g. {wa’ rutlh qam Do Duj} unicycle). I imagine the same thing might work for the bound morpheme {ghor} meaning a type of propulsion system, so far seen in only two words: {Hongghor} "impulse drive" and {pIvghor} "warp drive". *{tatghor} "ion propulsion" and *{’otlhghor} "photonic propulsion, photon drive" proposed on the List so I can envision *{SISghor} "steam drive/propulsion" or even *{SuSghor} "wind propulsion". BTW, since it comes up so often... have you and Okrand come up with an explicit way to refer to the space between words? {‘olQan} "gap" is the obvious choice: (qep'a' 2018): like the space between your teeth or the area between rows of seats in a theater, but it (and {‘olQanmey}) can be used for the space in a room, space on a desk, etc. A verb commonly used with {‘olQan} is {‘uch}. This generally means hold, grasp, but when the object is {‘olQan} it’s often translated "occupy" or "take up". ... but Okrand might prefer using a verb such as {chev} "separate" -- as in {chevwI' tlhoy'} "territorial wall" (literally a "separator wall"). *{chevwI' 'olQan} perhaps? -- Voragh ---------------------------------------------Original Message---------------------------------------- From: Lieven L. Litaer Am 01.04.2021 um 23:19 schrieb Steven Boozer:
Hmm… *qam Do “foot speed”
I always thought that was a very clear and obvious parsing of the word. What else would it be? [qam {Do Duj}] "speed vessel of the foot?"
FWIW: qughDo cruising speed wabDo speed of sound gho'Do sublight (speed)
Note that these are one word, not two.
Talking about this, the point of having a space in a compound noun is something that WE had observed ourselves, it was not something that Okrand thought about initially. As Klingon was mainly intended as a spoken language, the space was not important. You would not hear any difference. This is not a direct quote, but that's what Okrand told me. In addition to that, there is a difference in the example of {wab Do}. Now, this is a direct quote: As a spelling convention, {wab Do} "speed of sound" is written as two words. When used as a measurement term ("Mach"), it's written as one word (wabDo). The pronunciation (and, for that matter, meaning) is the same. (qepHom 2016) See also: http://klingon.wiki/En/Spacing
On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 14:13:53 +0000, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
BTW, since it comes up so often... have you and Okrand come up with an explicit way to refer to the space between words? {‘olQan} "gap" is the obvious choice:
(qep'a' 2018): like the space between your teeth or the area between rows of seats in a theater, but it (and {‘olQanmey}) can be used for the space in a room, space on a desk, etc. A verb commonly used with {‘olQan} is {‘uch}. This generally means hold, grasp, but when the object is {‘olQan} it’s often translated "occupy" or "take up".
... but Okrand might prefer using a verb such as {chev} "separate" -- as in {chevwI' tlhoy'} "territorial wall" (literally a "separator wall"). *{chevwI' 'olQan} perhaps?
Consider the possibility that the concept [space between words] might not exist in tlhIngan Hol except in discussions of orthography of other languages - _we_ separate words when writing them in the FSE-derived orthography used on the list - but when natives write using the native orthography, it's conceivable that they don't separate words visually, any more than Thai does. While Dr Okrand would certainly have some ideas for expressing the concept, Maltz may not, unless he has studied FSE or some other non-Klingon language whose orthography does use spaces.
On 4/2/2021 3:23 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
As a spelling convention, {wab Do} "speed of sound" is written as two words. When used as a measurement term ("Mach"), it's written as one word (wabDo). The pronunciation (and, for that matter, meaning) is the same. (qepHom 2016)
The difference is whether a Klingon would perceive something as a single word or not. In English we have the word /desktop./ As a noun, it refers to the surface of a desk. You /can/ talk about a /desk top/ as two separate words, describing the desk's top, but the actual name of the surface is /desktop./ Now, English has rules about how to pronounce words that are lexicalized compounds versus productive phrases. When someone talks about the desk's top as /desk top,/ the word /top/ will be stressed. When talking about the name of the surface, /desktop,/ the /desk/ is stressed. This rule is regular in English: descriptive and ad-hoc phrases tend to be stressed at the end; fixed names tend to be stressed at the beginning. I once heard an explanation of this that used a clip from a Seinfeld episode: the characters were all talking about /Chinese FOOD//,/ but the expression has become fixed since then, and now we say /CHINESE food./ We say /ICE cream,/ not /ice CREAM./ This feature of English lets us recognize lexicalized words just from hearing them. The point is that there is a difference between lexicalized phrases and simply putting words together to describe a thing. In English we note it with stress. In Klingon we note it by spelling convention. Lexicalized phrases may be given to us as a single word, in which case we are justified in using it that way. But we cannot coin our own single words because that is equal to declaring the word as something that you will find in the dictionaries of Klingons. We don't have any of those to reference, so we cannot make any such assertion. (I find it very amusing that my spell-checker doesn't have /lexicalized /in its database.) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 3:23 AM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 01.04.2021 um 23:19 schrieb Steven Boozer:
Hmm…
*qam Do “foot speed”
I always thought that was a very clear and obvious parsing of the word. What else would it be? [qam {Do Duj}] "speed vessel of the foot?"
In the case of {qam Do Duj}, I parsed it as a more generic genitive phrase, something like "speed that has something to do with feet (in this case, being generated by feet)", not as a reference to a specific measurement of velocity like with {wab Do}.
participants (6)
-
Jeff Zeitlin -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel