Go and come, know, impersonal verbs
Hi! I have three quick questions: 1. In English, if you want to say that you are approching the position of your interlocutor, you use the verb *come*: *I'm coming!* In German too: *Ich komme!*. But in Spanish we use *go*: *¡(Ya) voy!*. Does Klingon work like English/German, like Spanish or in a completely different way? 2. If I say something like: *When I saw it, I knew it would work*, the verb *know* doesn't actually mean *to have some knowledge*, but rather *to understand*, *to get to know*. You analyze the solution and you come to a conclusion: *It will work*. Should I use here *-choH*?: *Qap 'e' vISovchoH*. Or should I use some other verb? 3. Are there other impersonal verbs in Klingon apart from meterological verbs like *SIS*? *It's cold / hot* is translated with *jIbIr / jItuj*. But how about *It's early / late*, for example? Thank you!
On Sun, Apr 9, 2023 at 4:55 PM luis.chaparro--- via tlhIngan-Hol < tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> wrote:
Hi! I have three quick questions:
1. In English, if you want to say that you are approching the position of your interlocutor, you use the verb *come*: *I'm coming!* In German too: *Ich komme!*. But in Spanish we use *go*: *¡(Ya) voy!*. Does Klingon work like English/German, like Spanish or in a completely different way?
{ghoS} means both "approach" and "go away from", depending on context. I'd use something like {qaghoSlI'} for "I'm on my way to you" (I think that's what you mean by "I'm coming").
2. If I say something like: *When I saw it, I knew it would work*, the verb *know* doesn't actually mean *to have some knowledge*, but rather *to understand*, *to get to know*. You analyze the solution and you come to a conclusion: *It will work*. Should I use here *-choH*?: *Qap 'e' vISovchoH*. Or should I use some other verb?
I think you're just describing the verb {tlhoj}. {vIleghDI', Qap 'e' vItlhoj}.
3. Are there other impersonal verbs in Klingon apart from meterological verbs like *SIS*?
I don't think the weather words are impersonal. Their (typically unstated) subject is {muD} "the atmosphere".
*It's cold / hot* is translated with *jIbIr / jItuj*. But how about *It's early / late*, for example?
I don't know if {'eq}/{paS} can be used for the time sense of "early/late in the day". The only instances of its usage I'm aware of has a person as the subject. -- De'vID
Am 09.04.2023 um 18:56 schrieb De'vID via tlhIngan-Hol:
I don't know if {'eq}/{paS} can be used for the time sense of "early/late in the day". The only instances of its usage I'm aware of has a person as the subject.
Since luis had a comparison to German language, remember this: there are 2 meanings of the English word "be late/be early" - The first refers to time in the day, like the evening being late. In German "Es ist spät" and "wir sehen uns spät heute abend" - The second is when you have missed something or your planning is out of time. In German, this is usually expressed by adding "zu" (too) as in "zu spät" or you say "ich bin spät dran". This is a common error that beginners make when speaking German. When you are late for an appointment, the host would NOT say "du bist spät", they would say "du bist zu spät." In other words, in German, a person can not literally "be late". From the canon examples, it seems like {paS} is used more like the second version, like when missing an appointment or being behind schedule. You probably wouldn't use it to refer to the time of the day, as in "oh, it's late". My guess is that in Klingon, this is expressed by saying something like {Dor pem} or similar. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Ste_1998-01-18b
Thank you, De'vID and Lieven, for your answers! De'vID:
I don't think the weather words are impersonal. Their (typically unstated) subject is {muD} "the atmosphere".
That's very interesting! So there are no impersonal verbs in Klingon at all? Lieven:
From the canon examples, it seems like {paS} is used more like the second version, like when missing an appointment or being behind schedule. You probably wouldn't use it to refer to the time of the day, as in "oh, it's late".
My guess is that in Klingon, this is expressed by saying something like {Dor pem} or similar.
I like this, thank you! But sometimes you don't mean *It's late in the day*, but rather *It's late for something*, like in *It's late, we should go now or we will miss the train*. How could that be rendered in Klingon? Could we say something with *poH* or should we just recast?
On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 5:22 PM luis.chaparro--- via tlhIngan-Hol < tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> wrote:
Thank you, De'vID and Lieven, for your answers!
De'vID:
I don't think the weather words are impersonal. Their (typically unstated) subject is {muD} "the atmosphere".
That's very interesting! So there are no impersonal verbs in Klingon at all?
I can't think of any.
Lieven:
From the canon examples, it seems like {paS} is used more like the second version, like when missing an appointment or being behind schedule. You probably wouldn't use it to refer to the time of the day, as in "oh, it's late".
My guess is that in Klingon, this is expressed by saying something like {Dor pem} or similar.
I like this, thank you! But sometimes you don't mean *It's late in the day*, but rather *It's late for something*, like in *It's late, we should go now or we will miss the train*. How could that be rendered in Klingon? Could we say something with *poH* or should we just recast?
But that's exactly the meaning of {paS}. The canonical example is: {jIpaSqu'mo' narghpu' qaSuchmeH 'eb} "Because I'm very late, the opportunity to visit you has passed." See: http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-01-18b-news.txt -- De'vID
There were two more variants for translating “I was too late to visit you” in that HolQeD article: qaSuch vIneH 'ach narghpu' 'eb. jIpaSqu'. "I want to visit you, but the opportunity has escaped. I am very late. qaSuchlaHbe'. jIpaSqu' vaj narghpu' 'eb. "I cannot visit you. I am very late, thus the opportunity has escaped." Qov once suggested: paS rep It's late. (Qov [date?]) 'eq rep It's early. (Qov [date?]) -- Voragh From: De'vID via tlhIngan-Hol On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 5:22 PM luis.chaparro--- via tlhIngan-Hol I like this, thank you! But sometimes you don't mean *It's late in the day*, but rather *It's late for something*, like in *It's late, we should go now or we will miss the train*. How could that be rendered in Klingon? Could we say something with *poH* or should we just recast? But that's exactly the meaning of {paS}. The canonical example is: {jIpaSqu'mo' narghpu' qaSuchmeH 'eb} "Because I'm very late, the opportunity to visit you has passed." See: http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-01-18b-news.txt<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/klingonska.org/canon/1998-01-18b-news.txt__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!8Jxy_Rt_yuYDyZINcm6Dh0wUXRq3dfCYjRTgPcoUh_Lb54ZZr7JyrX3x_QJxuLzkOPSGI0bgyz1wdtLoww3LJzzdrPAL$> -- De'vID
Am 10.04.2023 um 22:57 schrieb De'vID via tlhIngan-Hol:
But that's exactly the meaning of {paS}.
You can also view the same message with more readable formatting and links to related topics on the Klingon Language Wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/Ste_1998-01-18b -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Usenet
On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 6:45 PM luis.chaparro--- via tlhIngan-Hol < tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> wrote:
Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'm not totally sure if I understand it right. My question is: Could a sentence like *qaSuchmeH tlhoy jIpaS* also work? I.e. using *tlhoy* to render the meaning *I was too late to visit you (so I didn't visit you)*. As far as I know the word *tlhoy* didn't exist yet at the time the message was written, right?
There are two parts to your question: * {tlhoy jIpaS} "I'm excessively late" would work to express being late past some cutoff point * {qaSuchmeH tlhoy jIpaS} would *not* work for your meaning of "I was too late to visit you", for the same reason which was the question that sparked that reply from Marc Okrand: "this sounds like I'm saying that I was intentionally very [or: excessively] late with the goal of my tardiness being that I visit you" Marc Okrand wrote (of {qaSuchmeH jIpaSqu'}): "Perhaps, then, a better English rendition of the Klingon sentence is "In order for me to visit you, I'll be very late." This suggests that the visit did or will take place (though later, perhaps, than desired), which is not the intended meaning." Analogously, {qaSuchmeH tlhoy jIpaS} would mean "In order for me to visit you, I'll be excessively late". That is, it suggests that the visit did or will take place, and that it took place (or will take place) past some cutoff point. Imagine if you had a friend who's always late to events, like she shows up to a party after everyone else has left. Normally, you miss her at the party because you show up on time, and leave before she arrives. But *in order to meet with her*, you deliberately show up to the party excessively late, when you know she will be there. That's the scenario that this sentence implies. -- De'vID
Thank you again, De'vID and Lieven, as well as charghwI', Voragh and ghunchu'wI' for your replies and really interesting suggestions! Just as an aside. In the quoted message (http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-01-18b-news.txt, http://klingon.wiki/En/Ste_1998-01-18b) we read:
But in the example sentence ("I was too late to visit you"), the phrase "too late" doesn't mean "very late"; it means "excessively late" or "overly late." Thus using {paSqu'} might not be the best course in the first place. It doesn't get across the idea of going beyond some cutoff point.
Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'm not totally sure if I understand it right. My question is: Could a sentence like *qaSuchmeH tlhoy jIpaS* also work? I.e. using *tlhoy* to render the meaning *I was too late to visit you (so I didn't visit you)*. As far as I know the word *tlhoy* didn't exist yet at the time the message was written, right?
On Apr 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, luis.chaparro wrote:
But sometimes you don't mean *It's late in the day*, but rather *It's late for something*, like in *It's late, we should go now or we will miss the train*. How could that be rendered in Klingon?
Idiomatically. You could say {vIHtaH gho} “the hoop is moving” in order to indicate that the chance to do something is about to end. You could indicate an impending deadline with {pel'aq ghorpa' mamejnIS} “before it breaks the shell…” If you prefer to be literal, you could say {DaH mamejnISbe' mapaSchoH ‘ej nulon lupwI'} “if we don’t leave now we will be late and the bus will abandon us.” You always get better answers when you ask specific questions instead of being vague and general. — ghunchu'wI'
Just to add a kink to question #3, I need to know more details about any vague statement like “It’s early,” or “It’s late,” before even starting on how to translate it. While it’s okay in English to not really say what you mean, in Klingon, I think you really need to decide specifically what you mean. First of all, if you mean “It’s early in the day,” or “It’s late at night”, keep in mind that Klingons see a day as the time between sunset and the next sunset, not as the time between midnight and the next midnight. In winter in the Northern Hemisphere on Earth, the day ends not long after 6:00pm. When it gets dark, it becomes “tomorrow”. So, if we don’t think of night as 6pm to midnight and instead see it as the full night time, “late at night” would probably imply near dawn. Maybe it’s clearer to just say something closer to what you mean, like {jIQongnIS}, or make an objective reference to time instead of a subjective reference to how you feel about what time it is. Even if you don’t have a tlhaq, just give an hour that you think is close, since we all know that “A Klingon may be inaccurate, but he is NEVER, approximate.” Prefer to be wrong than to be vague. If someone tells you that you are wrong, hey, FOOD FIGHT! pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Apr 9, 2023, at 10:55 AM, luis.chaparro--- via tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> wrote:
Hi! I have three quick questions:
1. In English, if you want to say that you are approching the position of your interlocutor, you use the verb *come*: *I'm coming!* In German too: *Ich komme!*. But in Spanish we use *go*: *¡(Ya) voy!*. Does Klingon work like English/German, like Spanish or in a completely different way?
2. If I say something like: *When I saw it, I knew it would work*, the verb *know* doesn't actually mean *to have some knowledge*, but rather *to understand*, *to get to know*. You analyze the solution and you come to a conclusion: *It will work*. Should I use here *-choH*?: *Qap 'e' vISovchoH*. Or should I use some other verb?
3. Are there other impersonal verbs in Klingon apart from meterological verbs like *SIS*? *It's cold / hot* is translated with *jIbIr / jItuj*. But how about *It's early / late*, for example?
Thank you! _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (6)
-
De'vID -
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh -
Lieven L. Litaer -
luis.chaparro＠web.de -
Steven Boozer -
Will Martin