Quvar, qaghel; qaStaHvIS jaj law' vIneH.. QISmaS cake Davutta''a'. DoyIchlanDaq QISmaS cake luvut Hoch, reH 'e' vIHar. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
Am 31.12.2016 um 14:32 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Quvar, qaghel; qaStaHvIS jaj law' vIneH..
QISmaS cake Davutta''a'. DoyIchlanDaq QISmaS cake luvut Hoch, reH 'e' vIHar.
jIjangpa', loQ pab vIbuS: qatlh not ghelbogh Degh Dalo'? chaq bIjang: reH ghelwI' 'ang mojaqmey. 'ach DoDmey Dalo' je, mu'tlhegh bertlham Da'angmeH. mISmoH Hutlhbogh ghelwI' Degh. QISmaS chab Daqelbogh vISovbe'. chab luvut DoyIchlanganpu' not 'e' vIQoy. 'ach jIQubchu'DI', wa' chab Segh vIqaw. 'oHvaD {Christstollen} ponglu'. 'oH vIpar. roD letqu', 'ej 'oH vel Su'ghar qutHommey law'. ghIrep naHHommey QaD ngaS je. Hoch Dochmeyvetlh vIparmo', QISmaS chabvam vIpar. 'ach juHDaq chabvam vutlu'be'. roD tIr ngogh ngevwI'Daq 'oH je'lu'. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
lieven:
jIjangpa', loQ pab vIbuS: qatlh not ghelbogh Degh Dalo'? chaq bIjang: reH ghelwI' 'ang mojaqmey. 'ach DoDmey Dalo' je, mu'tlhegh bertlham Da'angmeH. mISmoH Hutlhbogh > ghelwI' Degh.
bIlugh. ghelmeH mu'tlhegh 'oSbogh Degh'e', vIlo'Qo'; 'op ret 'e' vIwuq. 'utbe' 'ej meqvammo', vIlajta'Qo'. DachtaHvIS Deghvam not jImISchoH, 'ej jImISchoHbe'mo' taghwI' jIHtaHvIS, vaj mISchoHlaH pagh latlhpu'. DaH, HIja', bIlughqa'.. qatlh mu'tlhegh bertlham 'oSbogh DoD'e' vIlajQo'Qo'. 'ut; 'e' vIHarmo'. Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided that they are unnecessary. Their absence never confuses me, and since even I, a beginner, am never confused by their absence, obviously noone else would be confused as well. On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely necessary. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 31 Dec 2016 3:47 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 31.12.2016 um 14:32 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Quvar, qaghel; qaStaHvIS jaj law' vIneH..
QISmaS cake Davutta''a'. DoyIchlanDaq QISmaS cake luvut Hoch, reH 'e' vIHar.
jIjangpa', loQ pab vIbuS: qatlh not ghelbogh Degh Dalo'? chaq bIjang: reH ghelwI' 'ang mojaqmey. 'ach DoDmey Dalo' je, mu'tlhegh bertlham Da'angmeH. mISmoH Hutlhbogh ghelwI' Degh.
QISmaS chab Daqelbogh vISovbe'. chab luvut DoyIchlanganpu' not 'e' vIQoy. 'ach jIQubchu'DI', wa' chab Segh vIqaw. 'oHvaD {Christstollen} ponglu'. 'oH vIpar. roD letqu', 'ej 'oH vel Su'ghar qutHommey law'. ghIrep naHHommey QaD ngaS je. Hoch Dochmeyvetlh vIparmo', QISmaS chabvam vIpar.
'ach juHDaq chabvam vutlu'be'. roD tIr ngogh ngevwI'Daq 'oH je'lu'.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/31/2016 9:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
bIlugh. ghelmeH mu'tlhegh 'oSbogh Degh'e', vIlo'Qo'; 'op ret 'e' vIwuq. 'utbe' 'ej meqvammo', vIlajta'Qo'.
DachtaHvIS Deghvam not jImISchoH, 'ej jImISchoHbe'mo' taghwI' jIHtaHvIS, vaj mISchoHlaH pagh latlhpu'.
DaH, HIja', bIlughqa'.. qatlh mu'tlhegh bertlham 'oSbogh DoD'e' vIlajQo'Qo'. 'ut; 'e' vIHarmo'.
Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided that they are unnecessary.
Their absence never confuses me, and since even I, a beginner, am never confused by their absence, obviously noone else would be confused as well.
On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely necessary.
Spacesarenotnecessaryeitherbuttheymakereadingsomucheasier! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 31.12.2016 um 15:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided that they are unnecessary.
Why did you decide that. Don't you think it looks strange. Would it look strange in English.
On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely necessary.
Not really It's the same in English When you write one line per phrase it's clear the sentence is over If you have longer phrases that are longer than one line and may jump into the following line you can just leave a space to mark a ne phrase like I am doing now This is the next phrase So saying that punctuation is necessary contradicts your saying that the qustion mark is not :-) I agree that it is visible from the sentence that it'S a question, but it still helps the reading fluency when question marks are used. That's actually what they been invented for. I can read your messages, but it's still strange to read. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
It certainly looks strange, but after all it is a strange, alien language, right ? hehehe Anyway, because I respect yours and SuStel's opinion on this matter, and because I always accept the advice of experts, from now on I will be using question marks too ! qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 31 Dec 2016 4:30 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 31.12.2016 um 15:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided that they are unnecessary.
Why did you decide that. Don't you think it looks strange. Would it look strange in English.
On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely
necessary.
Not really It's the same in English When you write one line per phrase it's clear the sentence is over If you have longer phrases that are longer than one line and may jump into the following line you can just leave a space to mark a ne phrase like I am doing now
This is the next phrase
So saying that punctuation is necessary contradicts your saying that the qustion mark is not :-)
I agree that it is visible from the sentence that it'S a question, but it still helps the reading fluency when question marks are used. That's actually what they been invented for. I can read your messages, but it's still strange to read.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/31/2016 9:30 AM, Lieven wrote:
Am 31.12.2016 um 15:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided that they are unnecessary.
Why did you decide that. Don't you think it looks strange. Would it look strange in English.
On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely necessary.
Not really It's the same in English When you write one line per phrase it's clear the sentence is over If you have longer phrases that are longer than one line and may jump into the following line you can just leave a space to mark a ne phrase like I am doing now
This is the next phrase
So saying that punctuation is necessary contradicts your saying that the qustion mark is not :-)
Well, technically, line endings are also punctuation. But capitalization, alternate typefaces, horizontal and vertical spacing, and marks are all used to improve the readability of writing, refined* over thousands of years. Earlier writing often eschewed punctuation, showing it's not strictly necessary. But it helps a lot. Messing around with it is a disservice to your readers. * But the modern ignorance of the difference between text figures and lining figures is nothing short of a crime! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
however, there is a major difference between the {-'a'} and punctuation in general. if you are reading a sentence which contains a verb bearing the {-'a'}, or a sentence starting with any question word, there is no way you can't realize instantly that it is a question. but if you are trying to read a passage with no commas and periods, then good luck, especially in klingon. one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly this lack of punctuation. the problem isn't the lack of question marks; its having to be a psychic in order to understand where everything starts and stops. whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to read just a few sentences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall. I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am I supposed to understand this" ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 31 Dec 2016 5:00 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 12/31/2016 9:30 AM, Lieven wrote:
Am 31.12.2016 um 15:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided that they are unnecessary.
Why did you decide that. Don't you think it looks strange. Would it look strange in English.
On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely necessary.
Not really It's the same in English When you write one line per phrase it's clear the sentence is over If you have longer phrases that are longer than one line and may jump into the following line you can just leave a space to mark a ne phrase like I am doing now
This is the next phrase
So saying that punctuation is necessary contradicts your saying that the qustion mark is not :-)
Well, technically, line endings are also punctuation. But capitalization, alternate typefaces, horizontal and vertical spacing, and marks are all used to improve the readability of writing, refined* over thousands of years. Earlier writing often eschewed punctuation, showing it's not strictly necessary. But it helps a lot. Messing around with it is a disservice to your readers.
* But the modern ignorance of the difference between text figures and lining figures is nothing short of a crime!
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I also forego question marks and exclamation marks at times, sticking to just periods and commas. (Used to do it quite a lot, now less so) It mirrors the writing system in pIqaD, which I consider to be a good thing. It's nice to have a one-to-one transliteration between the two (which is also part of the reason I prefer to transcribe words rather than writing them out in English). That being said, TKD and other Okrandian sources use exclamation marks and question marks in romanized, so it makes sense that we also do. After all, romanized tlhIngan Hol is still the most widely accepted version; pIqaD has gained a lot of popularity in recent years, but it is still not universally accepted. http://klingonska.org/punct.html //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 17:21 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Quvar, QISmaS cake Davutta''a' however, there is a major difference between the {-'a'} and punctuation in general. if you are reading a sentence which contains a verb bearing the {-'a'}, or a sentence starting with any question word, there is no way you can't realize instantly that it is a question. but if you are trying to read a passage with no commas and periods, then good luck, especially in klingon. one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly this lack of punctuation. the problem isn't the lack of question marks; its having to be a psychic in order to understand where everything starts and stops. whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to read just a few sentences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall. I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am I supposed to understand this" ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 31 Dec 2016 5:00 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote: On 12/31/2016 9:30 AM, Lieven wrote: Am 31.12.2016 um 15:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided that they are unnecessary. Why did you decide that. Don't you think it looks strange. Would it look strange in English. On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely necessary. Not really It's the same in English When you write one line per phrase it's clear the sentence is over If you have longer phrases that are longer than one line and may jump into the following line you can just leave a space to mark a ne phrase like I am doing now This is the next phrase So saying that punctuation is necessary contradicts your saying that the qustion mark is not :-) Well, technically, line endings are also punctuation. But capitalization, alternate typefaces, horizontal and vertical spacing, and marks are all used to improve the readability of writing, refined* over thousands of years. Earlier writing often eschewed punctuation, showing it's not strictly necessary. But it helps a lot. Messing around with it is a disservice to your readers. * But the modern ignorance of the difference between text figures and lining figures is nothing short of a crime! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/31/2016 11:21 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
however, there is a major difference between the {-'a'} and punctuation in general.
if you are reading a sentence which contains a verb bearing the {-'a'}, or a sentence starting with any question word, there is no way you can't realize instantly that it is a question.
but if you are trying to read a passage with no commas and periods, then good luck, especially in klingon.
one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly this lack of punctuation. the problem isn't the lack of question marks; its having to be a psychic in order to understand where everything starts and stops.
whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to read just a few sentences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall.
I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am I supposed to understand this" ?
"There is a major difference" "Is there a major difference" In English, there is a major difference between the same sentence in indicative and interrogative moods, as I have just illustrated. You can tell which is a statement and which is a question. So why do we have the question mark? Why do some languages use the question mark twice, once at the beginning and once at the end? So basically, we're asking why you won't follow the conventions of punctuation that society has agreed upon for a long time. I find your English-language text more difficult to read than someone else's, because you don't capitalize so it's hard to find the beginnings of sentences; you put spaces before your end-of-sentence punctuation which makes it hard to find the ends of sentences; you don't use apostrophes consistently so it's hard to tell the difference between /its/ and /it's. / I've seen worse on the Internet: I once knew someone who put line breaks throughout his words like this because he thought it made things easier to read. Everyone yelled at him and told him it was actually harder to read written this way. He didn't believe them and kept on doing it because he was convinced his way was better than what they had learned. Whether or not it was better nobody else could read it easily because they hadn't been taught to read like this. OR WHY DON'T WE STICK TO ONE TYPEFACE? WHY DO WE MIX MAJUSCULES AND MINUSCULES WHEN ONE SIZE OF LETTERS WILL DO? it's because over the centuries we have found minuscule lettering is easier to read in large blocks, but majuscule lettering works better for emphasis, and emphasizing certain words in sentences by capitalizing them. I don't know the reason they chose to present /paq'batlh/ without punctuation. It probably has something to do with trying to recreate a spoken song rather than a prose text; you don't usually speak punctuation unless you're Victor Borge. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
bImuj. DIvI Hol vIlo'bogh 'oH DIvI Hol qaqchu''e'; not 'e' vImeq. vaj, vay' vIpon 'e' vInIDbe'. you're wrong. I never said that my english is the best, or the most preferable. so, I am not trying to convince anyone, about my english writing style. now, as far as klingon is concerned, there is no way you can convince me that the lack of question marks makes things difficult. how long do you study klingon ? 20-30 years ? I have been doing this for 14 months, and the lack of question marks doesn't confuse me. So, I find hard to believe that it is confusing to you, or others of your level. furthermore, as I have said before, you can't execute someone on the spot the moment he strays from canon, while at the same time condemn something which he does, although that something stems from it. if you accept paq'batlh as valid, then you can't say to someone "use punctuation !". because if you do, you will be contradicting your own self. 'ej mayajchuqlaHba'be'mo' 'ej maQochbe'choH ghItlhmeH Degh vIbuSHa'choHchu' 'op lup ret QIn ghomDaq jIjatlhta' ghelmeH Degh vIlo'qang 'a DaH jaS jIwuq 'ej Hoch Deghmey vIlon and because we are obviously unable to understand each other and agree, from now on I will stop using any all kinds of punctuation. earlier I wrote that I was willing to use question marks; now I changed my mind. 'ej canon 'oHmo' ghItlhmeH mIwvam'e', vIlo' vIneHchugh vaj DIbwIj 'oHbej. and because this way of writing is canon, it is my write to use it. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 31 Dec 2016 6:53 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 12/31/2016 11:21 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
however, there is a major difference between the {-'a'} and punctuation in general.
if you are reading a sentence which contains a verb bearing the {-'a'}, or a sentence starting with any question word, there is no way you can't realize instantly that it is a question.
but if you are trying to read a passage with no commas and periods, then good luck, especially in klingon.
one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly this lack of punctuation. the problem isn't the lack of question marks; its having to be a psychic in order to understand where everything starts and stops.
whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to read just a few sentences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall.
I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am I supposed to understand this" ?
"There is a major difference" "Is there a major difference"
In English, there is a major difference between the same sentence in indicative and interrogative moods, as I have just illustrated. You can tell which is a statement and which is a question. So why do we have the question mark? Why do some languages use the question mark twice, once at the beginning and once at the end?
So basically, we're asking why you won't follow the conventions of punctuation that society has agreed upon for a long time. I find your English-language text more difficult to read than someone else's, because you don't capitalize so it's hard to find the beginnings of sentences; you put spaces before your end-of-sentence punctuation which makes it hard to find the ends of sentences; you don't use apostrophes consistently so it's hard to tell the difference between *its* and *it's. *
I've seen worse on the Internet:
I once knew someone who put line breaks throughout his words like this because he thought it made things easier to read. Everyone yelled at him and told him it was actually harder to read written this way. He didn't believe them and kept on doing it because he was convinced his way was better than what they had learned. Whether or not it was better nobody else could read it easily because they hadn't been taught to read like this.
OR WHY DON'T WE STICK TO ONE TYPEFACE? WHY DO WE MIX MAJUSCULES AND MINUSCULES WHEN ONE SIZE OF LETTERS WILL DO? it's because over the centuries we have found minuscule lettering is easier to read in large blocks, but majuscule lettering works better for emphasis, and emphasizing certain words in sentences by capitalizing them.
I don't know the reason they chose to present *paq'batlh* without punctuation. It probably has something to do with trying to recreate a spoken song rather than a prose text; you don't usually speak punctuation unless you're Victor Borge.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 31.12.2016 um 18:37 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
you're wrong. I never said that my english is the best, or the most
Don't get upset because of SuStel. He sometimes enjoys being... let's say "unusual"... in his wording. :-)
how long do you study klingon ? 20-30 years ? I have been doing this for 14 months, and the lack of question marks doesn't confuse me.
That's not a valid argument. On the contrary: if one is used to using question marks during those 30 years, it is indeed confusing to suddenly see them missing.
if you accept paq'batlh as valid, then you can't say to someone "use punctuation !".
Actually, the majority agrees that paq'batlh is not to be taken too seriously: It has some true mistakes, very contradictory rules and some really strange constructions. Their lack of punctuation is more a kind of artistic usage. But indeed, TKD does not use punctuation at all, but TKW does, which is also canon. It seems like Okrand decided to add puntuation to that maybe for the same reason we are talking about. It makes it easier to read, especially when writing in the "transcription mode"
from now on I will stop using any all kinds of punctuation.earlier I wrote that I was willing to use question marks; now I changed my mind.
As I wrote before, don't get upset because of SuStel.
and because this way of writing is canon, it is my write to use it.
Sometimes, it's not only a question of canon. It's a matter of readability. It's your choice to write as you want, but it may make it more difficult for others to read. There is no rule for the use of punctuation, but it helps when using "our" (i.e. english) way of using it. And I think it's not a valid argument to say that the language is "alien" so it would be no problem to make it more "alien". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
true, however the tkd isn't a poem and it doesn't use punctuation either qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 2 Jan 2017 5:59 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31 December 2016 at 18:37, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
if you accept paq'batlh as valid, then you can't say to someone "use punctuation !". because if you do, you will be contradicting your own self.
ghuQ 'oH paq'batlh'e'. le'ba'.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
But it does put each sentence on it's own line so the reader can tell when they end (so the same job as a period does). If you are going to copy TKD format, then you need to follow everything it does. Remember that the goal of this list is to help people learn, study, and discuss the Klingon language. If your messages are incomprehensible by the majority then you are no longer on topic IMO. qurgh On Jan 2, 2017 11:28 AM, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
true, however the tkd isn't a poem and it doesn't use punctuation either
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 2 Jan 2017 5:59 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31 December 2016 at 18:37, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
if you accept paq'batlh as valid, then you can't say to someone "use punctuation !". because if you do, you will be contradicting your own self.
ghuQ 'oH paq'batlh'e'. le'ba'.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 11:28 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
true, however the tkd isn't a poem and it doesn't use punctuation either
The category of "punctuation" includes white space and line breaks. It isn't just visible marks like periods and semicolons. Reading your refusal to punctuate is like listening to someone who speaks an entire paragraph in a robotic monotone without taking a breath. It's hard work, imposed on everyone, just so a single person can avoid a few keystrokes. TKD actually does have an example of using punctuation marks for a Klingon sentence. See the end of the introduction to the Addendum. -- ghunchu'wI'
Marc Okrand sometimes points out that Klingon is a spoken language first and a written language second. For example, he tends to care less than most of us do about whether or not a noun-noun compound is written as one word or two words. There are some exceptions to this, however, such as his description about the spelling distinction regarding {wabDo} vs. {wab Do}: https://www.kli.org/activities/qepmey/qephommey/qephom-2016/ In any event, I suspect that punctuation might be less standardized in Klingon than it is in English, and therefore be used mainly for the sake of clarity and disambiguation. When writing a single, simple sentence, as is often the case in TKD, punctuation might not be considered very important, and might even be completely optional. When writing poetry, punctuation might follow (or boldly subvert!) the standards of the form one is using. I think it's almost certain that some conventions would be bound to one's profession, which might either be required by some authority or simply be widely espoused by the community. For example, in science and engineering, as well as in law, where there is an emphasis on unambiguous communication, there would perhaps be particular conventions regarding how to demarcate sentences and list items, as well as how to frame (or avoid) complex noun phrases. Klingon linguists and literary critics might have their own set of punctuation marks used to denote stress, tone, pitch, syllable boundaries, vowel length and whatever else. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 17:28 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Quvar, QISmaS cake Davutta''a' true, however the tkd isn't a poem and it doesn't use punctuation either qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 2 Jan 2017 5:59 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com<mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote: On 31 December 2016 at 18:37, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
if you accept paq'batlh as valid, then you can't say to someone "use punctuation !". because if you do, you will be contradicting your own self.
ghuQ 'oH paq'batlh'e'. le'ba'. -- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 2 January 2017 at 20:14, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
In any event, I suspect that punctuation might be less standardized in Klingon than it is in English, and therefore be used mainly for the sake of clarity and disambiguation.
When writing a single, simple sentence, as is often the case in TKD, punctuation might not be considered very important, and might even be completely optional.
When writing poetry, punctuation might follow (or boldly subvert!) the standards of the form one is using.
We're not talking about punctuation in {pIqaD}, of which we have examples in the SkyBox cards. We're talking about punctuation in the Latin transcription, which is a convention only. The convention established in canon for regular text (as opposed to poetry, or when dissecting a sentence for grammatical exposition) is to use commas, periods, and question marks as appropriate. -- De'vID
the only valid argument presented here was the argument put forth by qurgh who said: qurgh:
But it does put each sentence on it's own line so the reader can tell when they end (so the same job as a period does). If you are going to copy TKD format, then you need to follow everything it does. Remember that the goal of this list is to help people learn, study, and discuss the Klingon language. If your messages are incomprehensible by the majority then you are no longer on topic IMO.
because I do want to help beginners, from now on I will put each sentence in its own line, and use curly brackets to single it out according to tkd. and if a beginner wants to discuss any sentence, I will be happy to reply. but I will be damned if I use punctuation ever again. I am not writing to entertain "experts"; I am writing in order to practice and yes help others. As qurgh said, this list is to help people learn. Not to please you "experts". so, unless someone now tells me that I have to use the same fonts with tkd, the same operating system 'oqranD used, or wear the same clothes he was wearing when he was writing the tkd, then I believe this matter is settled. {taghwI'pu' vIQaH vIneHmo' DaqDajDaq Hoch mu'tlhegh vIlan 'ej jIghItlhtaHvIS Degh {} vIlo'} {mu'tlhegh wIpoj neHchugh taghwI' vaj vIjangqang} {'a Degh boneHbogh vIlo'chugh vaj SuQaghhu'} {po'wI'qoqvaD jISaHQo'} {jIqeq 'ej latlhpu' QaH Dochmey neH vIneH} {po'wI'pu' belvaD QIn tetlhvam tu'lu'be'} {tujatlhbe'chugh tkd ngutlh Degh rap yIlo' nIqHom ram'e' lo'ta'bogh 'oqranD tIlo' Sut rap tuQta'bogh 'oqranD yIlo' vaj rIn} qunnoH jan puqloD On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 9:39 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 January 2017 at 20:14, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
In any event, I suspect that punctuation might be less standardized in Klingon than it is in English, and therefore be used mainly for the sake of clarity and disambiguation.
When writing a single, simple sentence, as is often the case in TKD, punctuation might not be considered very important, and might even be completely optional.
When writing poetry, punctuation might follow (or boldly subvert!) the standards of the form one is using.
We're not talking about punctuation in {pIqaD}, of which we have examples in the SkyBox cards. We're talking about punctuation in the Latin transcription, which is a convention only. The convention established in canon for regular text (as opposed to poetry, or when dissecting a sentence for grammatical exposition) is to use commas, periods, and question marks as appropriate.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:32 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
because I do want to help beginners, from now on I will put each sentence in its own line, and use curly brackets to single it out according to tkd. and if a beginner wants to discuss any sentence, I will be happy to reply.
TKD doesn't use { } anywhere. Those are there because in TKD *italics* and *bold* are used for tlhIngan Hol sentences and their translations, but plain text doesn't support them.
but I will be damned if I use punctuation ever again. I am not writing to entertain "experts"; I am writing in order to practice and yes help others. As qurgh said, this list is to help people learn. Not to please you "experts".
Skipping punctuation won't help beginners, since most beginners expect it and most Klingon texts use them. Everyone on this list conformed to the list standards while they helped teach you Klingon. They didn't post blocks of text with no punctuation and then expected you to struggle your way through it. Why do you feel the need to spite new beginners by making it more difficult for them? Punctuation isn't there for the writer, but for the reader. qurgh
Am 03.01.2017 um 19:28 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
Skipping punctuation won't help beginners, since most beginners expect it and most Klingon texts use them. Everyone on this list conformed to the list standards while they helped teach you Klingon.
Besides, maybe one needs to be reminded of this mailing list FAQ, which explains exactly this problem. Indeed, it is not a rule per se, but a "convention" is some kind of agreement which has been suggested for this list many years go, and any new user of the list is recommened to read it. See it on the wiki, or read the original FAQ (which I adapted to the wiki because it was not up to date any more) "This is the FAQ for the Klingon Mailing List, tlhIngan-Hol. " http://higbee.cots.net/Holtej/klingon/faq.htm 2.11 Can we use punctuation when writing Klingon? "Over time, we have generally settled on these practices on the mailing list, not as a matter of policy, but as a convention. Posts are not strictly held to the conventions shown here, but if you use this system you will be more readily understood. " Extracted to http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Punctuation and http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/MailingListFAQ -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
qurgh, since this will probably be the last post I am writing here, I will address it to you since you are the moderator of this list. First, it is truly amusing to be listening all the time “the beginner expects this, or the beginner expects that”. Because I will ask, what beginner ? The zero beginners who regularly write here, or the zero beginners who rushed to introduce themselves here a few days ago when lieven asked them to ? Also, it is truly remarkable the fact, that you speak in the name of a supposed number of beginners, without ever any beginner speaking for himself. Only Brian Cote wrote at this thread, and nowhere at the few posts I wrote, which didn’t use punctuation, did any beginner complain. So, now I will ask you: 1. When “experts” utilize punctuation, but nevertheless write long and complex sentences do you tell them “back off, you are confusing beginners ?” 2. When “experts” transliterate, do you tell them “don’t do it” ? And the answer is no. Do you know why ? Because here, you function as a closely-knit group of individuals, who know each other a very long time, and of course look the other way when someone breaks the rules, which you are so much fond of. But when an outsider (such as me), someone who doesn’t belong in your tight circle begins to differentiate himself, then you turn against him, speaking to him as an inferior person who has to comply to your standards, as if this is some kind of “simon says” game. There is an english word, which describes exactly what’s going on here: “patronize”. Defined as: “treat with an apparent kindness which betrays a feeling of superiority”. Perhaps at the next qep’a’, your community should ask okrand for a klingon word for this term, because it surely describes a lot of you here. You asked me why I feel the need to spite beginners. however you are wrong; It is not my intention to make the learning process difficult for a beginner. But it is my intention to refuse to kneel to “experts”, who are obviously used to always getting their own way. “Experts” who celebrate klingon’s uniqueness and its not reliance on punctuation, to the newly arrived beginner, but when this same beginner becomes able not to use it, they say “don’t do it”, breaking their own rules. “Experts” who obviously believe they are the emperors of this language, sitting on a throne dictating do’s and don’ts. “Experts” who can’t realize that when someone accepts them as teachers then: 1. He is honoring them 2. He becomes a living person into whom their knowledge will be “poured”, thus eventually becoming the living continuation of the language they have dedicated a large part of their lives into. You should ask okrand for another word: “to drive someone away from an art/skill/language”, because obviously there are a lot of people here, who are described by that term too.. Do you know qurgh, the future of klingon ? What will it be in 40-50 years from now ? There will be no “experts”, at least not the way you perceive them to be here/today. Because people who will be having the determination to learn, will have been systematically driven away. Why ? Because someone who is willing to put the effort in order to learn, isn’t a weak person who will tolerate being pushed around by “experts”. So, eventually there will be only people able to write at a mere 20-30 percent of the tkd. Are you here “experts of klingon” ? Yes.. But you can’t realize that a master without a student who is serious about what he does, a master without a living person who will continue his skill, is a master of nothing. Anyway, have it your way.. I came here in order to learn klingon, because as I said in the past, I had a serious purpose for which I needed it. That purpose I accomplished. The klingon I have learnt, is more than sufficient for the purpose which I need it. It is sad though, that all the time you invested, all the effort you have made, and all the energy you spent, counted for nothing. Because I may have accomplished my goal of learning the amount of klingon which I wanted for my purpose, but the community lost a person who would be actually serious about this language. But, since this is obviously what you want, then I will be happy to oblige. In a few days I will unsubscribe, so we can all be happy again. michael On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 03.01.2017 um 19:28 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
Skipping punctuation won't help beginners, since most beginners expect it and most Klingon texts use them. Everyone on this list conformed to the list standards while they helped teach you Klingon.
Besides, maybe one needs to be reminded of this mailing list FAQ, which explains exactly this problem. Indeed, it is not a rule per se, but a "convention" is some kind of agreement which has been suggested for this list many years go, and any new user of the list is recommened to read it.
See it on the wiki, or read the original FAQ (which I adapted to the wiki because it was not up to date any more)
"This is the FAQ for the Klingon Mailing List, tlhIngan-Hol. " http://higbee.cots.net/Holtej/klingon/faq.htm
2.11 Can we use punctuation when writing Klingon? "Over time, we have generally settled on these practices on the mailing list, not as a matter of policy, but as a convention. Posts are not strictly held to the conventions shown here, but if you use this system you will be more readily understood. "
Extracted to http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Punctuation and http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/MailingListFAQ
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4 January 2017 at 12:07, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
First, it is truly amusing to be listening all the time “the beginner expects this, or the beginner expects that”. Because I will ask, what beginner ? The zero beginners who regularly write here, or the zero beginners who rushed to introduce themselves here a few days ago when lieven asked them to ?
Hold on a second. You were the one who introduced the idea that you're writing for beginners. The reason that I would prefer that you use punctuation is because *I* can't understand what you write.
From a previous thread:
mu'ghom Dalo'nIStaHchugh vaj Hol qa' DatIvlaHbe' teH Qatlh ghojmeH mIw 'ej naQchoHmeH qaStaHvIS poH nI' bIvum net 'utmoH 'a tagha' Dunbej tev Dachavta'bogh
ghunchu'wI': I got as far as {DativlaHbe' teH Qatlh} before losing the thread completely
Like ghunchu'wI', I can't parse your sentence either, and this is true for many of your previous messages as well. It's not only a matter of missing punctuation, it's also your "work-arounds" for non-existent problems that nobody understands except for you. (Why do you use {net 'utmoH} instead of {-nIS}? Why do you invent neologisms like {SaDlogh} instead of rephrasing your sentence using {law'} or other commonly-used tools of Klingon grammar?)
Also, it is truly remarkable the fact, that you speak in the name of a supposed number of beginners, without ever any beginner speaking for himself. Only Brian Cote wrote at this thread, and nowhere at the few posts I wrote, which didn’t use punctuation, did any beginner complain.
A couple of people who are long-time speakers of the language have complained that they can't understand what you write. Maybe no beginners have complained because they don't even bother reading anything you write as it's so incomprehensible. Have you considered that? When I have time, I usually try to read long Klingon texts posted to this list. I have no trouble reading Qov's stories, even though they are pages long. I have much more trouble reading your posts, precisely because you don't think it's a problem that you don't follow the conventions used by others.
So, now I will ask you:
1. When “experts” utilize punctuation, but nevertheless write long and complex sentences do you tell them “back off, you are confusing beginners ?” 2. When “experts” transliterate, do you tell them “don’t do it” ?
And the answer is no. Do you know why ?
You've been around long enough that you should know that when a long-time speaker writes something incomprehensible, others usually reply to ask for clarification or point out an obvious error. You're simply wrong that we wouldn't tell long-timers not to transliterate if one did so. If you haven't observed it, it's because long-timers know to follow the conventions listed in the FAQ for clarity of communication.
Because here, you function as a closely-knit group of individuals, who know each other a very long time, and of course look the other way when someone breaks the rules, which you are so much fond of. But when an outsider (such as me), someone who doesn’t belong in your tight circle begins to differentiate himself, then you turn against him, speaking to him as an inferior person who has to comply to your standards, as if this is some kind of “simon says” game.
The idea that the long-time members of this mailing list form a closely-knit group who picks on outsiders is nonsense. You've been around long enough that you should know that there are heated disagreements among the long-time speakers of Klingon. The issue here isn't that you're an "outsider" (which, considering how long you've been on the list and how much you post, you're not). The issue here is that you insist on writing in your own invented dialect of Klingon that nobody else understands, or can only understand with additional effort.
There is an english word, which describes exactly what’s going on here: “patronize”. Defined as: “treat with an apparent kindness which betrays a feeling of superiority”. Perhaps at the next qep’a’, your community should ask okrand for a klingon word for this term, because it surely describes a lot of you here.
There's actually a non-canon Klingon word for someone who insists on not following the list's conventions: {tlhoqo'}. See here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/KLIwords You, mayqel qunenoS, are a {tlhoqo'}.
You should ask okrand for another word: “to drive someone away from an art/skill/language”, because obviously there are a lot of people here, who are described by that term too..
I've found that what usually drives people away from this mailing list is interminable arguments about minutiae of the language, like whether to use punctuation, rather than using it.
There will be no “experts”, at least not the way you perceive them to be here/today. Because people who will be having the determination to learn, will have been systematically driven away. Why ? Because someone who is willing to put the effort in order to learn, isn’t a weak person who will tolerate being pushed around by “experts”.
Most people fail when it comes to learning a language, especially people who insist on not following the conventions followed by the rest of the language's speakers. Imagine that we're discussing French and you refuse to write the accents, arguing that they're unnecessary and that people who insist on them are driving students away. If students are indeed driven away by that, I'd say, "too bad, but tough". A teacher who insists that rules should be followed isn't a bad teacher; a student who refuses to follow the rules is a bad student. You're not the first person to insist on writing Klingon in a way that others can't understand. There used to be an organisation called the Interstellar Language School (ILS), which was a rival to the KLI. Unlike the KLI, the ILS was much more lenient about following Klingon language conventions. They fragmented because each member invented their own way of writing Klingon which was mutually incomprehensible to others. The core members of the KLI insisted that everyone should follow a fairly strict of conventions, and the KLI still exists. Maybe the community of Klingon speakers will cease to exist in some decades, but refraining from telling people that they should follow rules when writing Klingon isn't going to slow the process. If anything, it will hasten it by fragmentation.
I came here in order to learn klingon, because as I said in the past, I had a serious purpose for which I needed it. That purpose I accomplished. The klingon I have learnt, is more than sufficient for the purpose which I need it.
I hope that purpose is fulfilled by your speaking a dialect of Klingon that others don't understand.
It is sad though, that all the time you invested, all the effort you have made, and all the energy you spent, counted for nothing. Because I may have accomplished my goal of learning the amount of klingon which I wanted for my purpose, but the community lost a person who would be actually serious about this language.
But, since this is obviously what you want, then I will be happy to oblige. In a few days I will unsubscribe, so we can all be happy again.
Duvuv SuS DaneH. -- De'vID
Hi Michael, I am not this lists admin, but I want to answer anyway for several reasons; I was part of the discussion, one of the experts you talk about, and I've been on this list for almost twenty years now. And after all, I still admire how quickly you learned Klingon. I still remember when we first met and had interesting conversations, even off list. First of all, please don't be discouraged so quickly. After all, learning Klingon should be fun and if you throw it away, it will not only be our time that is lost, it's yours as well. Don't end up as "the one who left the list angrily" About your comments, I'll answer shortly, because you are a bit wrong with some of them. (my mail software lost the quotes marks, so I'll use quotes myself) You ask "Because I will ask, what beginner ? The zero beginners who regularly ..." Did you know that there are about 290 members on this mailing list? Not all learners are writting. It has always been a fact that there are so called lurkers who learn just by watching what happens. I know many klingonists who NEVER write a thing here. You write: 1. When “experts” utilize punctuation, but nevertheless write long and complex sentences do you tell them “back off, you are confusing beginners ?” No, we don't, because the list is made not ONLY for beginners. People can write about what they want, in Klingon. (pointing at te FAQ again). But I would also tell experts to use punctiuation, because any text without looks horrible, even for experts. I don't want to guess where a sentence ends, also not in english. You write:
When “experts” transliterate, do you tell them “don’t do it” ?
Yes, we do! It's in the list's FAQ. You write:
Because here, you function as a closely-knit group of individuals,
Well, actually, those closely-knit members usually do follow those rules. There is one reason to explain why these people are so strict on their rules. It goes back to a ime when we did not have as many canon examples as today. These "rules" or "conventions" or whatever you call them were set up to avoid that people start to use their own Klingon. Back then, students - and also experts - tried to stick words and nouns together like they wanted, creating absolute no-gos. They would stick noun suffixes to verbs, just because they thought it makes sense. That's why we are so strict on following the rules. That's why SuStel keeps saying "we just don't know if xyz is correct just because you think it is.". We don't want to stop students from leraning Klingon, but there has to be some guidance. That's what this list is for, and that's the goal of the KLI. ------------ I'll let others answer more. I just want to tell you that I will not be happy when you leave the list. You made it alive again, and asked very interesting quetions from a differetn point of view. If you leave the list, I hope you keep learning and using Klingon, so we can meet at other places. rIn. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 6:07 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
qurgh,
since this will probably be the last post I am writing here, I will address it to you since you are the moderator of this list.
I've read your message, and as the moderator of this list I will simply say: No one is singling you out, or picking on you. I understand you feel that way, but all the active members here have given their all to help you learn the language. If the group was as tight-knit and anti-outsider as you described, then you wouldn't have been able to spend the last 14 months here being taught the language for free. I just ask that you, like everyone else, follow the conventions of the list. You do have a tendency to go into areas of the language that are not defined in the canon texts you have read, this leads to a lot of "No, it's said like this ...", or "we don't know...", posts from members who have already been through that area. Often, instead of heeding their advice, you go off on your own tangent, making up things that few others can understand. This leads to more "No" posts. When people suggest you study canon texts to learn more, you dismiss them and tell everyone those texts confuse you. My advice would be to read those texts and post here when something confuses you. Not only does it help others that might have been confused by it but didn't feel like they should ask the question (or didn't know how), but it also puts a copy of the answer into the KLI archives, which are used by a lot of people to find out what's been done in the past. Asking questions about the language helps everyone learn more. I won't be made happy by you leaving the group. I don't think anyone here will be happy because of that. What would make me happy is for us to move passed this whole silly "punctuation" thing and get back to the fun of learning, studying, and speaking tlhIngan Hol. qurgh
ja' qurgh:
What would make me happy is for us to move passed this whole silly "punctuation" thing and get back to the fun of learning, studying, and speaking tlhIngan Hol.
nuqDaq 'oH QIn naDmeH leQ'e'? Do'Ha', Facebook vIlo'chu'mo', leQvam vIlo' 'e' vInID. :-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:32 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
because I do want to help beginners, from now on I will put each sentence in its own line, and use curly brackets to single it out according to tkd. and if a beginner wants to discuss any sentence, I will be happy to reply.
tlhuHbogh jatlhwI' DaDaQo'chugh, pagh DaQaH. not {} Deghmey lo' tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom. not Del. not qel. mu'mey Hol 'angmeH, pat pIm lo'. mu'tlheghmeylIj poj je po'wI' 'e' Dalajqang'a'? bIDubtaHmeH, QaghmeylIj DaSovnIS. 1) You're not helping anyone by refusing to indicate pauses and intonation in your Klingon sentences. 2) Curly brackets are neither used nor mentioned in TKD. We use them here because we want to be able to indicate Klingon words and phrases in the midst of English, and plain text email does not support boldface emphasis. 3) Are you also willing to discuss your sentences with experts? You still often make beginner's mistakes like using {-chugh} only on the first of conjoined clauses, or choosing the noun suffix {-vaD} when the verb suffix {-meH} would be more appropriate, or fixating on a direct translation using a nominalized verb instead of using the verb itself. If you continue to dismiss advice from the skilled longtime speakers of Klingon, your progress will probably stagnate and you will probably never become one yourself. -- ghunchu'wI'
On 3 January 2017 at 18:32, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
the only valid argument presented here was the argument put forth by qurgh who said:
qurgh:
But it does put each sentence on it's own line so the reader can tell when they end (so the same job as a period does). If you are going to copy TKD format, then you need to follow everything it does. Remember that the goal of this list is to help people learn, study, and discuss the Klingon language. If your messages are incomprehensible by the majority then you are no longer on topic IMO.
because I do want to help beginners, from now on I will put each sentence in its own line, and use curly brackets to single it out according to tkd.
wejpuH. ngIq mu'tlhegh QIjmo' tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom mu'tlheghmey chev. pab QIjmeH paq Daqonbe'. naH jajmeylIj bIghItlh 'e' DaghojtaHvIS chaq rItlh naQ Dalo'pu'. bInenchoHpu'DI' bIghItlhtaHvIS ghItlhwI' motlh Dalo' net pIHba'. rItlh naQ Dalo'taHchugh ghojwI'pu' QaHbe'. bInenHa' 'e' 'ang neH. -- De'vID
On 2 January 2017 at 17:28, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
true, however the tkd isn't a poem and it doesn't use punctuation either
ghojmoHmeH paq 'oH TKD'e'. mu'tlheghmey nap ngaS. The sentences in TKD are mostly short, and the even slightly longer sentences are annotated like this: <{SutlhtaHvIS chaH DIHIvpu'} or {DIHIvpu' SutlhtaHvIS chaH} While they were negotiating we attacked them. ({SutlhtaHvIS} while they are negotiating, {chaH} they, {DIHIvpu'} we attacked them> Are you going to annotate your sentences like so? The two later books, where Klingon sentences are written out to be read by readers assumed to be familiar with the grammar without need of dissection, present Klingon sentences with punctuation like so: "Tickle us, do we not laugh? Prick us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, shall we not seek revenge?" {cheqotlhchugh maHaghbe''a'? cheDuQchugh mareghbe''a'? cheQIHchugh manoDbe''a'?} Other canon sources, such as the SkyBox cards and the little phrase booklet that came with Power Klingon, all use punctuation. (In the case of the SkyBox cards, the punctuation is even in the {pIqaD}.) And that's how Latinised Klingon is written by most people in the Klingon community, outside of contexts where sentences are dissected for grammatical analysis or poetry. Saying that you're not going to use punctuation because a grammar book and a poem don't do so, while most of the canon sentences meant for regular reading do, is silly. -- De'vID
Am 31.12.2016 um 17:21 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly this lack of punctuation.
That's indeed very hard when reading it. A good advice for a good practice: Analyze the text, and put the punctuation marks where you think they make sense.
whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to read just a few sentences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall.
I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am I supposed to understand this" ?
Read your previous lines again, an then read your message where you wrote that you will stop using punctuation marks. :-/ Think about it again. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
I concur. If I can read it (while still looking up lots of vocab), you'll definitely be able to read it. I just pencil in the punctuation as I go. It makes reading it WAY easier. (Plus I'd like to read your paq'batlh reviews ... like you're doing with the Silmarillion!) QImSIr On Saturday, December 31, 2016, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 31.12.2016 um 17:21 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly this lack of punctuation.
That's indeed very hard when reading it. A good advice for a good practice: Analyze the text, and put the punctuation marks where you think they make sense.
whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to read just a few
sentences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall.
I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am I supposed to understand this" ?
Read your previous lines again, an then read your message where you wrote that you will stop using punctuation marks. :-/
Think about it again.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Someone wrote here that people do not pronounce punctuation. But people do pronounce punctuation - as a slight or longer pause between words, and/or as variations in pitch. ----Original message----
From : wearetheinformation00@gmail.com Date : 01/01/2017 - 05:19 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Quvar, QISmaS cake Davutta''a' I concur. If I can read it (while still looking up lots of vocab), you'll definitely be able to read it. I just pencil in the punctuation as I go. It makes reading it WAY easier. (Plus I'd like to read your paq'batlh reviews ... like you're doing with the Silmarillion!) QImSIr
Am 31.12.2016 um 20:47 schrieb Lieven <levinius@gmx.de>:
jIjangpa', loQ pab vIbuS: qatlh not ghelbogh Degh Dalo'? chaq bIjang: reH ghelwI' 'ang mojaqmey. ''ach DoDmey Dalo' je, mu'tlhegh bertlham Da'angmeH. mISmoH Hutlhbogh ghelwI' Degh.
Quvar, mu'tlhegh vanmeH tera'ngan Degh'e' lo'Qo'mo' qunnoH, bImISlaw', 'a pab pabHa'be'. ghelmeH Degh le' ghajbe' tlhIngan Hol DaSov. meq mu'tlheghvaD qolqoS mu'tlhegh Datlha'moHpu'. net chaw'be' 'e' DaSov. reH qolqoS mu'tlhegh nengnIS meq mu'tlhegh. qatlh pab DapabHa'pu'? (qamISmoHbe'meH DIvI' Hol Degh vIlo'.) ~mIp'av
Am 01.01.2017 um 07:57 schrieb Ed Bailey:
Am 31.12.2016 um 20:47schrieb Lieven <levinius@gmx.de <mailto:levinius@gmx.de>>:
jIjangpa', loQ pab vIbuS: qatlh not ghelbogh Degh Dalo'? chaq bIjang: reH ghelwI' 'ang mojaqmey. ''ach DoDmey Dalo' je, mu'tlhegh bertlham Da'angmeH. mISmoH Hutlhbogh ghelwI' Degh.
Quvar, mu'tlhegh vanmeH tera'ngan Degh'e' lo'Qo'mo' qunnoH, bImISlaw', 'a pab pabHa'be'. ghelmeH Degh le' ghajbe' tlhIngan Hol DaSov. meq mu'tlheghvaD qolqoS mu'tlhegh Datlha'moHpu'. net chaw'be' 'e' DaSov. reH qolqoS mu'tlhegh nengnIS meq mu'tlhegh. qatlh pab DapabHa'pu'? (qamISmoHbe'meH DIvI' Hol Degh vIlo'.)
Do'Ha' qayajchu'be'. nuq 'oS {meq mu'tlhegh}, nuq 'oS {qolqoS mu'tlhegh}? yImugh, DaQIjmeH. 'ach latlh qech vIyaj. bIjatlh: ghelmeH Degh ghajbe' tlhIngan Hol. bIlughbej, 'ach lughchugh ngoDvam, vaj latlh DoDmey ghajbe' je tlhIngan Hol. SKI: Why do people seem to accept usage of "punctuation", but do not want to include the question mark as "punctuation." To me, punctuation includes all the symbols we can use to make reading easier {([.,:;])}/!?"<-> Either use all of them, or do not use them at all. I you decide not using them, then don't complain about paq'batlh. You talk about rules? Then stick to the facts: a) Okrand has never written anything "about" punctuation. b) The Klingon Dictionary does not use any punctuation, not in the main text, nor in the list of expressions. c) The Klingon Way uses periods, commas (p. 67), semicolons (p. 19), question marks (p. 131) and exclamation marks (p. 153) d) Klingon for The Galactic Traveler does use punctuation as well, (p. 20, 118, 194, 195 e.a.) even including question marks (p. 34) e) I don't have at hand right now, but I'm sure that TalkNow and Monopoly also use similar punctuation. Since these are the major canon sources we must rely on, in my point of view the use of punctuation - including question marks - is used by Okrand himself and therefore recommended usage. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
participants (10)
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Alan Anderson -
Anthony Appleyard -
Brian Cote -
De'vID -
Ed Bailey -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
qurgh lungqIj -
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