qurgh, since this will probably be the last post I am writing here, I will address it to you since you are the moderator of this list. First, it is truly amusing to be listening all the time “the beginner expects this, or the beginner expects that”. Because I will ask, what beginner ? The zero beginners who regularly write here, or the zero beginners who rushed to introduce themselves here a few days ago when lieven asked them to ? Also, it is truly remarkable the fact, that you speak in the name of a supposed number of beginners, without ever any beginner speaking for himself. Only Brian Cote wrote at this thread, and nowhere at the few posts I wrote, which didn’t use punctuation, did any beginner complain. So, now I will ask you: 1. When “experts” utilize punctuation, but nevertheless write long and complex sentences do you tell them “back off, you are confusing beginners ?” 2. When “experts” transliterate, do you tell them “don’t do it” ? And the answer is no. Do you know why ? Because here, you function as a closely-knit group of individuals, who know each other a very long time, and of course look the other way when someone breaks the rules, which you are so much fond of. But when an outsider (such as me), someone who doesn’t belong in your tight circle begins to differentiate himself, then you turn against him, speaking to him as an inferior person who has to comply to your standards, as if this is some kind of “simon says” game. There is an english word, which describes exactly what’s going on here: “patronize”. Defined as: “treat with an apparent kindness which betrays a feeling of superiority”. Perhaps at the next qep’a’, your community should ask okrand for a klingon word for this term, because it surely describes a lot of you here. You asked me why I feel the need to spite beginners. however you are wrong; It is not my intention to make the learning process difficult for a beginner. But it is my intention to refuse to kneel to “experts”, who are obviously used to always getting their own way. “Experts” who celebrate klingon’s uniqueness and its not reliance on punctuation, to the newly arrived beginner, but when this same beginner becomes able not to use it, they say “don’t do it”, breaking their own rules. “Experts” who obviously believe they are the emperors of this language, sitting on a throne dictating do’s and don’ts. “Experts” who can’t realize that when someone accepts them as teachers then: 1. He is honoring them 2. He becomes a living person into whom their knowledge will be “poured”, thus eventually becoming the living continuation of the language they have dedicated a large part of their lives into. You should ask okrand for another word: “to drive someone away from an art/skill/language”, because obviously there are a lot of people here, who are described by that term too.. Do you know qurgh, the future of klingon ? What will it be in 40-50 years from now ? There will be no “experts”, at least not the way you perceive them to be here/today. Because people who will be having the determination to learn, will have been systematically driven away. Why ? Because someone who is willing to put the effort in order to learn, isn’t a weak person who will tolerate being pushed around by “experts”. So, eventually there will be only people able to write at a mere 20-30 percent of the tkd. Are you here “experts of klingon” ? Yes.. But you can’t realize that a master without a student who is serious about what he does, a master without a living person who will continue his skill, is a master of nothing. Anyway, have it your way.. I came here in order to learn klingon, because as I said in the past, I had a serious purpose for which I needed it. That purpose I accomplished. The klingon I have learnt, is more than sufficient for the purpose which I need it. It is sad though, that all the time you invested, all the effort you have made, and all the energy you spent, counted for nothing. Because I may have accomplished my goal of learning the amount of klingon which I wanted for my purpose, but the community lost a person who would be actually serious about this language. But, since this is obviously what you want, then I will be happy to oblige. In a few days I will unsubscribe, so we can all be happy again. michael On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 03.01.2017 um 19:28 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
Skipping punctuation won't help beginners, since most beginners expect it and most Klingon texts use them. Everyone on this list conformed to the list standards while they helped teach you Klingon.
Besides, maybe one needs to be reminded of this mailing list FAQ, which explains exactly this problem. Indeed, it is not a rule per se, but a "convention" is some kind of agreement which has been suggested for this list many years go, and any new user of the list is recommened to read it.
See it on the wiki, or read the original FAQ (which I adapted to the wiki because it was not up to date any more)
"This is the FAQ for the Klingon Mailing List, tlhIngan-Hol. " http://higbee.cots.net/Holtej/klingon/faq.htm
2.11 Can we use punctuation when writing Klingon? "Over time, we have generally settled on these practices on the mailing list, not as a matter of policy, but as a convention. Posts are not strictly held to the conventions shown here, but if you use this system you will be more readily understood. "
Extracted to http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Punctuation and http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/MailingListFAQ
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org