On 4 January 2017 at 12:07, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
First, it is truly amusing to be listening all the time “the beginner expects this, or the beginner expects that”. Because I will ask, what beginner ? The zero beginners who regularly write here, or the zero beginners who rushed to introduce themselves here a few days ago when lieven asked them to ?
Hold on a second. You were the one who introduced the idea that you're writing for beginners. The reason that I would prefer that you use punctuation is because *I* can't understand what you write.
From a previous thread:
mu'ghom Dalo'nIStaHchugh vaj Hol qa' DatIvlaHbe' teH Qatlh ghojmeH mIw 'ej naQchoHmeH qaStaHvIS poH nI' bIvum net 'utmoH 'a tagha' Dunbej tev Dachavta'bogh
ghunchu'wI': I got as far as {DativlaHbe' teH Qatlh} before losing the thread completely
Like ghunchu'wI', I can't parse your sentence either, and this is true for many of your previous messages as well. It's not only a matter of missing punctuation, it's also your "work-arounds" for non-existent problems that nobody understands except for you. (Why do you use {net 'utmoH} instead of {-nIS}? Why do you invent neologisms like {SaDlogh} instead of rephrasing your sentence using {law'} or other commonly-used tools of Klingon grammar?)
Also, it is truly remarkable the fact, that you speak in the name of a supposed number of beginners, without ever any beginner speaking for himself. Only Brian Cote wrote at this thread, and nowhere at the few posts I wrote, which didn’t use punctuation, did any beginner complain.
A couple of people who are long-time speakers of the language have complained that they can't understand what you write. Maybe no beginners have complained because they don't even bother reading anything you write as it's so incomprehensible. Have you considered that? When I have time, I usually try to read long Klingon texts posted to this list. I have no trouble reading Qov's stories, even though they are pages long. I have much more trouble reading your posts, precisely because you don't think it's a problem that you don't follow the conventions used by others.
So, now I will ask you:
1. When “experts” utilize punctuation, but nevertheless write long and complex sentences do you tell them “back off, you are confusing beginners ?” 2. When “experts” transliterate, do you tell them “don’t do it” ?
And the answer is no. Do you know why ?
You've been around long enough that you should know that when a long-time speaker writes something incomprehensible, others usually reply to ask for clarification or point out an obvious error. You're simply wrong that we wouldn't tell long-timers not to transliterate if one did so. If you haven't observed it, it's because long-timers know to follow the conventions listed in the FAQ for clarity of communication.
Because here, you function as a closely-knit group of individuals, who know each other a very long time, and of course look the other way when someone breaks the rules, which you are so much fond of. But when an outsider (such as me), someone who doesn’t belong in your tight circle begins to differentiate himself, then you turn against him, speaking to him as an inferior person who has to comply to your standards, as if this is some kind of “simon says” game.
The idea that the long-time members of this mailing list form a closely-knit group who picks on outsiders is nonsense. You've been around long enough that you should know that there are heated disagreements among the long-time speakers of Klingon. The issue here isn't that you're an "outsider" (which, considering how long you've been on the list and how much you post, you're not). The issue here is that you insist on writing in your own invented dialect of Klingon that nobody else understands, or can only understand with additional effort.
There is an english word, which describes exactly what’s going on here: “patronize”. Defined as: “treat with an apparent kindness which betrays a feeling of superiority”. Perhaps at the next qep’a’, your community should ask okrand for a klingon word for this term, because it surely describes a lot of you here.
There's actually a non-canon Klingon word for someone who insists on not following the list's conventions: {tlhoqo'}. See here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/KLIwords You, mayqel qunenoS, are a {tlhoqo'}.
You should ask okrand for another word: “to drive someone away from an art/skill/language”, because obviously there are a lot of people here, who are described by that term too..
I've found that what usually drives people away from this mailing list is interminable arguments about minutiae of the language, like whether to use punctuation, rather than using it.
There will be no “experts”, at least not the way you perceive them to be here/today. Because people who will be having the determination to learn, will have been systematically driven away. Why ? Because someone who is willing to put the effort in order to learn, isn’t a weak person who will tolerate being pushed around by “experts”.
Most people fail when it comes to learning a language, especially people who insist on not following the conventions followed by the rest of the language's speakers. Imagine that we're discussing French and you refuse to write the accents, arguing that they're unnecessary and that people who insist on them are driving students away. If students are indeed driven away by that, I'd say, "too bad, but tough". A teacher who insists that rules should be followed isn't a bad teacher; a student who refuses to follow the rules is a bad student. You're not the first person to insist on writing Klingon in a way that others can't understand. There used to be an organisation called the Interstellar Language School (ILS), which was a rival to the KLI. Unlike the KLI, the ILS was much more lenient about following Klingon language conventions. They fragmented because each member invented their own way of writing Klingon which was mutually incomprehensible to others. The core members of the KLI insisted that everyone should follow a fairly strict of conventions, and the KLI still exists. Maybe the community of Klingon speakers will cease to exist in some decades, but refraining from telling people that they should follow rules when writing Klingon isn't going to slow the process. If anything, it will hasten it by fragmentation.
I came here in order to learn klingon, because as I said in the past, I had a serious purpose for which I needed it. That purpose I accomplished. The klingon I have learnt, is more than sufficient for the purpose which I need it.
I hope that purpose is fulfilled by your speaking a dialect of Klingon that others don't understand.
It is sad though, that all the time you invested, all the effort you have made, and all the energy you spent, counted for nothing. Because I may have accomplished my goal of learning the amount of klingon which I wanted for my purpose, but the community lost a person who would be actually serious about this language.
But, since this is obviously what you want, then I will be happy to oblige. In a few days I will unsubscribe, so we can all be happy again.
Duvuv SuS DaneH. -- De'vID