Lets say I'm writing a passage which concerns some "things".. In english I can write "these things are:", and after the ":" (which I don't know how you call it in english), I can continue by writing what these things are. Is it possible to do something similar in klingon ? Can someone write {Dochmeyvam bIH:} or {bIH Dochmeyvam'e':} ? And then continue by describing whatever it is he wants to describe ? And if the answer is yes, then what is preferable/more correct ? {Dochmeyvam bIH:} or {bIH Dochmeyvam'e':} ? qunnoq
Am 17.08.2017 um 14:49 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
In english I can write "these things are:", and after the ":" (which I don't know how you call it in english),
A column.
I can continue by writing what these things are. Is it possible to do something similar in klingon?
No, it is not - at least not in the way we like doing this to emphasisze things, like "And the winner is..." The basic reson for this is the sentence order, which always names the object first. I usually solve this using two phrases, to move the important object to the end: {Doch taQ vIleghpu'. puvbogh targh 'oH (Dochvam'e').} or {Dochmey vIje'ta'. DaH bIH vIDel: wa', cha', wej} -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 8/17/2017 8:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
Lets say I'm writing a passage which concerns some "things"..
In english I can write "these things are:", and after the ":" (which I don't know how you call it in english), I can continue by writing what these things are.
Is it possible to do something similar in klingon ? Can someone write {Dochmeyvam bIH:} or {bIH Dochmeyvam'e':} ? And then continue by describing whatever it is he wants to describe ?
And if the answer is yes, then what is preferable/more correct ? {Dochmeyvam bIH:} or {bIH Dochmeyvam'e':} ?
It's called a colon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colon_%28punctuation%29>, and as part of a sentence it is typically used either as you are using it here (enumerating a list) are as an explanation or definition of what comes before the colon. The Bird of Prey poster uses colons in some of the Klingon text <http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-11-01-bop.txt>. In normal speaking, I wouldn't rely on this. Just put your list in the normal place: *Doch wa', Doch cha', Doch wej je bIH Dochmeyvam'e'.* Don't look to punctuation to be able to speak in new ways; use punctuation to make clear the text you write. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 17.08.2017 um 15:09 schrieb SuStel:
It's called a colon
Uh - yeah. I meant that, but spelled it wrong. HIvqa' veqlargh!
In normal speaking, I wouldn't rely on this. Just put your list in the normal place: *Doch wa', Doch cha', Doch wej je bIH Dochmeyvam'e'.*
I just remembered a canon example from ST5. Only partially used in the film, but from Okrand's notes: vubpu' jonta' HeSwI'. wa' vub ghaH tlhIngan gharwI''e'. wa' ghaH tera'ngan'e'. I don't have the translation at hand, I'd say this would use a colon in English: "Hostages have been taken: One Klingon diplomat and one Terran." -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
ok, I understand everything written so far, and I will use these suggestions in the future. I just a final question.. If I write {Dochmeyvam bIH Dochmeyvam'e':}, then would it be possible for whatever follows the colon to refer to the {Dochmeyvam'e'}, or the only possible interpretation of the sentence would be that the {Dochmeyvam'e'} are the {Dochmeyvam} ? qunnoq On Aug 17, 2017 16:15, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 17.08.2017 um 15:09 schrieb SuStel:
It's called a colon
Uh - yeah. I meant that, but spelled it wrong. HIvqa' veqlargh!
In normal speaking, I wouldn't rely on this. Just put your list in the
normal place: *Doch wa', Doch cha', Doch wej je bIH Dochmeyvam'e'.*
I just remembered a canon example from ST5. Only partially used in the film, but from Okrand's notes:
vubpu' jonta' HeSwI'. wa' vub ghaH tlhIngan gharwI''e'. wa' ghaH tera'ngan'e'.
I don't have the translation at hand, I'd say this would use a colon in English:
"Hostages have been taken: One Klingon diplomat and one Terran."
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 17.08.2017 um 15:24 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
If I write {Dochmeyvam bIH Dochmeyvam'e':}, then would it be possible for whatever follows the colon to refer to the {Dochmeyvam'e'}, or the only possible interpretation of the sentence would be that the {Dochmeyvam'e'} are the {Dochmeyvam} ?
I think that's so ambiguous as the english: "These things are these things." Not so nice. You could specify: {Dochmey vIqelbogh bIH Dochmey veb'e'} "The following this are the things I talked about" or you say it explicitely: {DaH Dochmey vIqelta'bogh vIpong} "I will now name thie things I talked about." -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 8/17/2017 9:15 AM, Lieven wrote:
I just remembered a canon example from ST5. Only partially used in the film, but from Okrand's notes:
vubpu' jonta' HeSwI'. wa' vub ghaH tlhIngan gharwI''e'. wa' ghaH tera'ngan'e'.
I don't have the translation at hand, I'd say this would use a colon in English:
"Hostages have been taken: One Klingon diplomat and one Terran."
There are also examples from /Star Trek III:/ *matHa' DoS jonta' neH */Gunner: target engine only./ Ignore the subtitle. I would punctuate this as follows: *matHa', DoS: jonta' neH.*/Gunner [comma for direct address] the target [colon for a following explanation] engine only./ *jabbI'ID pItlh */Transmission completed./ Again, ignore the subtitle. I would punctuate this as *jabbI'ID: pItlh*/Data transmission [colon for a following description] finished./ The Klingon in /Star Trek III/ is also a warning to us not to rely on formal grammar when in tense situations. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 17 August 2017 at 16:08, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
There are also examples from Star Trek III:
matHa' DoS jonta' neH Gunner: target engine only.
Ignore the subtitle. I would punctuate this as follows: matHa', DoS: jonta' neH. Gunner [comma for direct address] the target [colon for a following explanation] engine only.
jabbI'ID pItlh Transmission completed.
Again, ignore the subtitle. I would punctuate this as jabbI'ID: pItlh Data transmission [colon for a following description] finished.
The Klingon in Star Trek III is also a warning to us not to rely on formal grammar when in tense situations.
Other examples from Star Trek III: {He chu' ghoS: DIvI' neHmaH} "New course: Federation neutral zone." {baHwI', DoS yIbuS: QuQ neH. yaj'a'?} "Gunner, target engine only. Understood?" It might be that Kruge and Valkris come from a region of the Empire where speaking like this is common. -- De'vID
On 8/17/2017 11:18 AM, De'vID wrote:
It might be that Kruge and Valkris come from a region of the Empire where speaking like this is common.
I think the intention was that this is colloquial standard Klingon, and the stuff we got later, like the stuff in /The Klingon Way,/ is formal standard Klingon. We're just fuddy-duddies. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 8/17/2017 11:18 AM, De'vID wrote:
It might be that Kruge and Valkris come from a region of the Empire where speaking like this is common.
Am 17.08.2017 um 17:27 schrieb SuStel:
I think the intention was that this is colloquial standard Klingon, and the stuff we got later, like the stuff in /The Klingon Way,/ is formal standard Klingon. We're just fuddy-duddies.
Another thing to note is that military speach in Klingon is abbreviated very often, like {baH} instead of {yIbaH}, so {matHa', DoS: 'entepray'} is just perrfectly brief, saying nothing unncecessary. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/ClippedKlingon
On 8/17/2017 11:36 AM, Lieven wrote:
On 8/17/2017 11:18 AM, De'vID wrote:
It might be that Kruge and Valkris come from a region of the Empire where speaking like this is common.
Am 17.08.2017 um 17:27 schrieb SuStel:
I think the intention was that this is colloquial standard Klingon, and the stuff we got later, like the stuff in /The Klingon Way,/ is formal standard Klingon. We're just fuddy-duddies.
Another thing to note is that military speach in Klingon is abbreviated very often, like {baH} instead of {yIbaH}, so {matHa', DoS: 'entepray'} is just perrfectly brief, saying nothing unncecessary.
As chapter seven of TKD notes, Clipped Klingon is used commonly in both military and everyday Klingon. "Extensively" is the word Okrand uses. The preceding grammatical sketch describes “proper” Klingon, that is, Klingon as it is taught in Klingon schools or to non-Klingons. In actual day-to-day use, however, spoken Klingon may vary somewhat from its “proper” form, usually by leaving some elements out. This abbreviated form of speaking, called Clipped Klingon by Klingon grammarians, is heard quite frequently in military contexts where quick—rather than eloquent—communication is deemed a virtue. Probably for similar reasons, Clipped Klingon is used quite extensively in all walks of Klingon life. So Clipped Klingon is not eloquent, but it is common and used for quick communication. Don't offer Clipped Klingon when people ask for inscriptions, tattoos, or song lyrics, but do use it when speaking casually. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 17.08.2017 um 17:56 schrieb SuStel:
So Clipped Klingon is not eloquent, but it is common and used for quick communication. Don't offer Clipped Klingon when people ask for inscriptions, tattoos, or song lyrics, but do use it when speaking casually.
Although not military situations, one could compare it to "can't" instead of "cannot", and "won't" instead of "will not", or even worse "ain't" instead of "is not". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/ClippedKlingon
On 8/17/2017 1:24 PM, Lieven wrote:
Am 17.08.2017 um 17:56 schrieb SuStel:
So Clipped Klingon is not eloquent, but it is common and used for quick communication. Don't offer Clipped Klingon when people ask for inscriptions, tattoos, or song lyrics, but do use it when speaking casually.
Although not military situations, one could compare it to "can't" instead of "cannot", and "won't" instead of "will not", or even worse "ain't" instead of "is not".
Contractions are much more acceptable in formal language now than they were, say, a hundred years ago. Clipped Klingon is more like speaking in shorthand. A: Sup? B: Nothin'. A: Busy? B: Got homework. A: How much? B: All night. A: C'mon, catch a movie. B: I wish. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 17.08.2017 um 17:56 schrieb SuStel:
So Clipped Klingon is not eloquent, but it is common and used for quick communication. Don't offer Clipped Klingon when people ask for inscriptions, tattoos, or song lyrics, but do use it when speaking casually.
Although not military situations, one could compare it to "can't" instead of "cannot", and "won't" instead of "will not", or even worse "ain't" instead of "is not".
I'm not sure that's quite right. "Can't" and "won't" are perfectly acceptible and grammatical even in formal situations, whereas "ain't" is still considered incorrect. Clipped Klingon reminds me a lot of the sparse style used in newspaper headlines, where functional words like articles, "and" or forms of "to be" get dropped, leaving mostly just the most important nouns and verbs.
On Aug 17, 2017 17:28, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: On 8/17/2017 11:18 AM, De'vID wrote: It might be that Kruge and Valkris come from a region of the Empire where speaking like this is common. I think the intention was that this is colloquial standard Klingon, and the stuff we got later, like the stuff in *The Klingon Way,* is formal standard Klingon. We're just fuddy-duddies. Recently, we got {SIS 'e' 'aqlu', javmaH vatlhvI' DIch} "it is predicted it will rain, 60% certainty". That comma might as well be a colon. -- De'vID
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel