Something which during the 14 months I've been on this list, only once someone has mentioned is this: the {-nIS}, expresses "need"; it isn't equivalent with the english "must". if I write {jIQongnIS}, then this means "I need to sleep". I need to sleep because I am exhausted. Similarly {jISopnIS}, is "I need to eat"; I *need* to eat, because I'm starving. But what if I want to express "must" ? The must doesn't necessarily express "need". Mainly it expresses "obligation". Mainly it expresses "necessity". So, I thought that perhaps in order to express the "must", we could use the {'ut}. Example: "because you're a bad cat, I must tickle you" {vIghro' mIgh SoHmo' vIqotlh. 'ut.} However there is a problem. In the above example, while the english sentence describes a necessity to perform an action in the future (near or not so near), the klingon one doesn't. It says "because you're a bad cat I tickle you. it is necessary". So, in order to get the job done, we only need to place a {tugh} in the beginning, or any other appropriate time stamp and we're good to go. Perhaps by the appropriate context, and a well placed {'ut}, or maybe even {potlh}, or maybe even {net pIHbej}, or even better {net poQbej}, or even way better {jIHvaD net poQbej} we can express the "must", without falling into the trap of using {-nIS}. 'ach chaq jImuj. jIQongnISmo' jIQubchu'laHbe'. Do', muloStaH QongDaqwIj tun.. qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
or maybe just a simple, yet effective: {time stamp, yadda yadda yadda I do this or that to you. jIHvaD 'ut}. qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 14 Nov 2016 10:40 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Something which during the 14 months I've been on this list, only once someone has mentioned is this:
the {-nIS}, expresses "need"; it isn't equivalent with the english "must".
if I write {jIQongnIS}, then this means "I need to sleep". I need to sleep because I am exhausted. Similarly {jISopnIS}, is "I need to eat"; I *need* to eat, because I'm starving.
But what if I want to express "must" ? The must doesn't necessarily express "need". Mainly it expresses "obligation". Mainly it expresses "necessity".
So, I thought that perhaps in order to express the "must", we could use the {'ut}.
Example: "because you're a bad cat, I must tickle you" {vIghro' mIgh SoHmo' vIqotlh. 'ut.}
However there is a problem. In the above example, while the english sentence describes a necessity to perform an action in the future (near or not so near), the klingon one doesn't. It says "because you're a bad cat I tickle you. it is necessary".
So, in order to get the job done, we only need to place a {tugh} in the beginning, or any other appropriate time stamp and we're good to go.
Perhaps by the appropriate context, and a well placed {'ut}, or maybe even {potlh}, or maybe even {net pIHbej}, or even better {net poQbej}, or even way better {jIHvaD net poQbej} we can express the "must", without falling into the trap of using {-nIS}.
'ach chaq jImuj. jIQongnISmo' jIQubchu'laHbe'. Do', muloStaH QongDaqwIj tun..
qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 11/14/2016 3:40 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
the {-nIS}, expresses "need"; it isn't equivalent with the english "must".
if I write {jIQongnIS}, then this means "I need to sleep". I need to sleep because I am exhausted. Similarly {jISopnIS}, is "I need to eat"; I *need* to eat, because I'm starving.
But what if I want to express "must" ? The must doesn't necessarily express "need". Mainly it expresses "obligation". Mainly it expresses "necessity".
So, I thought that perhaps in order to express the "must", we could use the {'ut}.
Example: "because you're a bad cat, I must tickle you" {vIghro' mIgh SoHmo' vIqotlh. 'ut.}
Here's a better way: *vIghro' qab SoHmo' qaqotlh net raD*/because you are a bad cat, I am compelled to tickle you./
However there is a problem. In the above example, while the english sentence describes a necessity to perform an action in the future (near or not so near), the klingon one doesn't. It says "because you're a bad cat I tickle you. it is necessary".
So, in order to get the job done, we only need to place a {tugh} in the beginning, or any other appropriate time stamp and we're good to go.
Your Klingon example does not express past, present, or future, so one does not necessarily expect it to mean that you'll tickle the cat RIGHT NOW. You're just being vague. Your time-stamp solution is making the situation specific. My use of *net raD* is not the One True Way of translating /must,/ but it often does a good job. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 14.11.2016 um 21:40 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Something which during the 14 months I've been on this list, only once someone has mentioned is this:
the {-nIS}, expresses "need"; it isn't equivalent with the english "must".
Actually, I have never focused much on the different kind of "must", perhabs because in German, there is not much difference between "must" and "need". For instance, in German one says "I must go to the bathroom", while in english it may be "I need to..." There is the canon example {qaleghnIS} "I need to see you", where it's not clear if anyone is forcing someon, or if it's necessary. I may be wrong (or confused) with the english phrasing, but if I were to say "We have to talk" or "We must talk", it's maybe not necessary, and nobody is forcing it, or requesting it. In Klingon, I would say {majatlhnIS} and I think that's clear. Was it not you who said two days ago that you need to scramble the english words in your brain to get one idea? I think this is one more. From my point of view, I think it's okay to say {-nIS} = "must/need".
if I write {jIQongnIS}, then this means "I need to sleep". I need to sleep because I am exhausted. Similarly {jISopnIS}, is "I need to eat"; I *need* to eat, because I'm starving.
But what if I want to express "must" ? The must doesn't necessarily express "need". Mainly it expresses "obligation". Mainly it expresses "necessity".
It depends on the situation, of course. You could use it to emphasize: {DaH jIQongnIS. jIDoy'be', 'a jIQong 'e' ra' HoD.} "I must sleep now. I'm not tired, but my captain ordered me to."
Example: "because you're a bad cat, I must tickle you" {vIghro' mIgh SoHmo' vIqotlh. 'ut.}
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 11/14/2016 4:41 PM, Lieven wrote:
Was it not you who said two days ago that you need to scramble the english words in your brain to get one idea? I think this is one more. From my point of view, I think it's okay to say {-nIS} = "must/need".
But there /is/ a distinction between being required to do something and having a need to do something. It is not at all clear to me that Klingon *-nIS* covers both. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 04:58:39PM -0500, SuStel wrote:
On 11/14/2016 4:41 PM, Lieven wrote:
Was it not you who said two days ago that you need to scramble the english words in your brain to get one idea? I think this is one more. From my point of view, I think it's okay to say {-nIS} = "must/need".
But there /is/ a distinction between being required to do something and having a need to do something. It is not at all clear to me that Klingon *-nIS* covers both.
There's definitely a difference, but would Klingons really care about it? Think about how we speak in English: often we say "I need to get X done" (or, just as frequently, "you need to get X done") when X is a legal or social requirement rather than a physical need. In Klingon culture, where upholding one's honor and fulfilling one's duties is much more heavily stressed than it is in Western Human cultures, I doubt the difference would really matter (and if you really needed to express it, you could use a circumlocution that described the law or custom that required you to do something). -SapIr
Am 14.11.2016 um 22:58 schrieb SuStel:
But there /is/ a distinction between being required to do something and having a need to do something. It is not at all clear to me that Klingon *-nIS* covers both.
I only see that canon examples sometimes use "must" and sometimes "need". Maybe it's me again proving my lack of english knowledge that you see more than I do? Or is this up to personal interpretation? {bIleSnIS} "You need a rest" {ghob tIvnISbe'lu'} "One need not enjoy virtue" {mataHmeH maSachnIS} "To survive, we must expand" {nIteb SuvnIS DevwI'} "A leader must stand alone." {pIpyuS pach DaSop DaneHchugh, pIpyuS puS DaghornIS} "If you want to eat pipius claw, you'll have to break a few pipiuses" need... must... have to... To me, it seems very clear that {-nIS} covers all of that. If something is definitely "required" add a phrase with {poQ}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
SuStel:
Here's a better way: vIghro' qab SoHmo' qaqotlh net raD because you are a bad cat, I am compelled to tickle you.
{net raD} is beautiful. I'll definitely be using it in the future ! lieven:
Was it not you who said two days ago that you need to scramble the english words in your brain to get one idea?
Yes indeed.. However the english meanings we need to scramble, in order to *feel* a single klingon word, must be the correct ones. Take the {taH} fiasco, as it occured on the "why do we fall" thread. Because some time ago, I scrambled in my mind along with the legitimate meanings of {taH} an invalid one, I used it the wrong way. And if ghunchu'wI', hadn't correct me, I would still be using it the wrong way. The problem with {-nIS}, is that not all klingonists accept that it possesses the "must" meaning too. So I think, -it's just my personal view on the matter- that in order to be able to understand each other 100% of the time, and at a 100% of the times, it is preferable to refrain from using {-nIS} where the actual meaning is "must". Perhaps, this is a way too strict interpretation of this suffix, and kahless knows in the past I had quite a problem accepting way too strict interpretations of grammar/vocabulary. But eventually I realized, that "being strict" is necessary in order to be able to understand each other while we are using the warrior's tongue. After all, I feel that the concept of "must" is better expressed with the alternate ways already described, than through the {-nIS}. qunnoH jan puqloD On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 14.11.2016 um 22:58 schrieb SuStel:
But there /is/ a distinction between being required to do something and having a need to do something. It is not at all clear to me that Klingon *-nIS* covers both.
I only see that canon examples sometimes use "must" and sometimes "need". Maybe it's me again proving my lack of english knowledge that you see more than I do? Or is this up to personal interpretation?
{bIleSnIS} "You need a rest"
{ghob tIvnISbe'lu'} "One need not enjoy virtue"
{mataHmeH maSachnIS} "To survive, we must expand"
{nIteb SuvnIS DevwI'} "A leader must stand alone."
{pIpyuS pach DaSop DaneHchugh, pIpyuS puS DaghornIS} "If you want to eat pipius claw, you'll have to break a few pipiuses"
need... must... have to... To me, it seems very clear that {-nIS} covers all of that.
If something is definitely "required" add a phrase with {poQ}.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 11/14/2016 5:40 PM, Lieven wrote:
I only see that canon examples sometimes use "must" and sometimes "need". Maybe it's me again proving my lack of english knowledge that you see more than I do? Or is this up to personal interpretation?
Here's <http://www.engvid.com/modals-of-necessity/> an excellent video explanation of the difference between /need/ and /have to/ (and /have to/ equals /must/). It says that /have to/ focuses on the consequences of not doing something, while /need/ focuses on the benefit of doing something. If you /have to/ do something, there is some agency requiring it of you; this is not the case with /need./ However, the reality isn't all that clear-cut. People interchange /need, must,/ and /have to/ all the time. For instance, while *nIteb SuvnIS DevwI'//*is translated with /must/ instead of /need,/ there is no sense in this sentence that any agency is imposing lone-fighting on a leader; rather, it's saying that a leader has a personal necessity of lone-fighting. So don't count too much on these terms having distinct meanings when used in colloquial English. Now, if someone wants to pull up a few instances of *-nIS* being used where an agency is imposing an action and consequences of failure on the subject, and not just instances where the English translation uses /must,/ I'll be happy to revise my opinion. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I do not have any strong opinion on {-nIS} and for which kind of obligation to use it. But I have a fairly complete corpus of sentences, and the following are the ones for the suffix {-nIS}. They contain all sentences with this suffix that I'm aware of, including the ones from the paq'bath. The ones marked with * after it are sentences lacking an English translation, where I came up with one myself. For many sentences one could argue in length if it's an outside force and if consequences are implied, and I leave this discussion to others. Maybe someone wants to go through them and have a look. If you find anything interesting, please let us know! - - - - - - -8< - - - - - - vIleghnIS. «I need to see him/her.» bISopnIS. «You need to eat.» mataHmeH maSachnIS. «To survive, we must expand.» yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'. «Survival must be earned.» DaH jIbwIj vISay'nISmoH. «I must wash my hair now.» jaghpu' mo' wIyajnIS. [slang] «We must understand the enemies' motive.» maSopnISbej. «We certainly need to eat.» vIchennISmoH. «I need to create it.» yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'. «Victory must be earned.» DIHIvlaHtaHvIS DaH DIHIvnIS! «Attack them now, while we still can!» vergh 'ach DIlnISbe' «free parking» Qel vISamnIS. «I need to find a doctor. / I need a doctor.» vIghochnISlaH... «I could track them down...*» DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu'! «Romulan women belong on their backs!» chalDaq DapawmeH wutlhDaq bInejnIS. «To reach the heavens, you must seek underground.» nIteb bIwuqnIS. «The choice is yours.» qaghobnISchugh maghobchuq! «I will fight you if I must!» molor DaQapbe'nISmoH. «Molor must be stopped.» jISeH'eghnIS[,] / muDechbogh Dochmey vISeHnIS[,] / Hoch vISeHnIS. «I must take control / Of myself, my surroundings, everything!» lojmItDaj veghta'DI' jubbe'wI' / yInqa'meH chegh 'e' botnIS qotar. «Still, Kotar cannot let a mortal / Pass his gates and return alive.» qeylIS HoHmeH qotar qeylIS SamnIS. «Kahless must be hunted down and killed.» bImej 'e' vIchaw'mo' / ghe'tor cheghDI' loDnI'wI' vavwI' je[,] / chaH DatlhejnIS. «In return, you must go back / With your brother and father / To the Underworld.» jIlay'ta' 'ej batlh jIpabta'[,] / vaj choDanIS. «I have kept my word of honor, / And so should you.» Qochbe'nIS. «He/she/they need(s) to not disagree. / He/she/they need(s) to agree.» QochnISbe'. «He/she/they do(es) not need to disagree.» ngajmo' jajvam, nom bIlopnIS. «Because this day is short, you have to celebrate it quickly.*» tugh QInvam lulaDlaH ghojwI'pu' chu' 'ej QaHnISbe' jatlhwI'pu' po'qu'. «Soon the new learners can read this message and the expert speakers don't need to help.*» - - - - - - ->8 - - - - - - I haven't entered the sentences from that aeronautics museum presentation yet. And Voragh might have some more sentences that I lack. So mine are not exhaustive. - André 2016-11-15 16:05 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
On 11/14/2016 5:40 PM, Lieven wrote:
I only see that canon examples sometimes use "must" and sometimes "need". Maybe it's me again proving my lack of english knowledge that you see more than I do? Or is this up to personal interpretation?
Here's <http://www.engvid.com/modals-of-necessity/> an excellent video explanation of the difference between *need* and *have to* (and *have to* equals *must*). It says that *have to* focuses on the consequences of not doing something, while *need* focuses on the benefit of doing something. If you *have to* do something, there is some agency requiring it of you; this is not the case with *need.*
However, the reality isn't all that clear-cut. People interchange *need, must,* and *have to* all the time.
For instance, while *nIteb SuvnIS DevwI' *is translated with *must* instead of *need,* there is no sense in this sentence that any agency is imposing lone-fighting on a leader; rather, it's saying that a leader has a personal necessity of lone-fighting. So don't count too much on these terms having distinct meanings when used in colloquial English.
Now, if someone wants to pull up a few instances of *-nIS* being used where an agency is imposing an action and consequences of failure on the subject, and not just instances where the English translation uses *must,* I'll be happy to revise my opinion.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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Not sure if this is helpful at all, but when we needed to say "You Must" in "A Klingon Christmas Carol", we had the character instead say <'ut>. Specifically, "It it essential". On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:35 AM, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not have any strong opinion on {-nIS} and for which kind of obligation to use it. But I have a fairly complete corpus of sentences, and the following are the ones for the suffix {-nIS}. They contain all sentences with this suffix that I'm aware of, including the ones from the paq'bath. The ones marked with * after it are sentences lacking an English translation, where I came up with one myself.
For many sentences one could argue in length if it's an outside force and if consequences are implied, and I leave this discussion to others. Maybe someone wants to go through them and have a look.
If you find anything interesting, please let us know!
- - - - - - -8< - - - - - -
vIleghnIS.
«I need to see him/her.»
bISopnIS.
«You need to eat.»
mataHmeH maSachnIS.
«To survive, we must expand.»
yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'.
«Survival must be earned.»
DaH jIbwIj vISay'nISmoH.
«I must wash my hair now.»
jaghpu' mo' wIyajnIS. [slang]
«We must understand the enemies' motive.»
maSopnISbej.
«We certainly need to eat.»
vIchennISmoH.
«I need to create it.»
yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'.
«Victory must be earned.»
DIHIvlaHtaHvIS DaH DIHIvnIS!
«Attack them now, while we still can!»
vergh 'ach DIlnISbe'
«free parking»
Qel vISamnIS.
«I need to find a doctor. / I need a doctor.»
vIghochnISlaH...
«I could track them down...*»
DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu'!
«Romulan women belong on their backs!»
chalDaq DapawmeH wutlhDaq bInejnIS.
«To reach the heavens, you must seek underground.»
nIteb bIwuqnIS.
«The choice is yours.»
qaghobnISchugh maghobchuq!
«I will fight you if I must!»
molor DaQapbe'nISmoH.
«Molor must be stopped.»
jISeH'eghnIS[,] / muDechbogh Dochmey vISeHnIS[,] / Hoch vISeHnIS.
«I must take control / Of myself, my surroundings, everything!»
lojmItDaj veghta'DI' jubbe'wI' / yInqa'meH chegh 'e' botnIS qotar.
«Still, Kotar cannot let a mortal / Pass his gates and return alive.»
qeylIS HoHmeH qotar qeylIS SamnIS.
«Kahless must be hunted down and killed.»
bImej 'e' vIchaw'mo' / ghe'tor cheghDI' loDnI'wI' vavwI' je[,] / chaH DatlhejnIS.
«In return, you must go back / With your brother and father / To the Underworld.»
jIlay'ta' 'ej batlh jIpabta'[,] / vaj choDanIS.
«I have kept my word of honor, / And so should you.»
Qochbe'nIS.
«He/she/they need(s) to not disagree. / He/she/they need(s) to agree.»
QochnISbe'.
«He/she/they do(es) not need to disagree.»
ngajmo' jajvam, nom bIlopnIS.
«Because this day is short, you have to celebrate it quickly.*»
tugh QInvam lulaDlaH ghojwI'pu' chu' 'ej QaHnISbe' jatlhwI'pu' po'qu'.
«Soon the new learners can read this message and the expert speakers don't need to help.*»
- - - - - - ->8 - - - - - -
I haven't entered the sentences from that aeronautics museum presentation yet. And Voragh might have some more sentences that I lack. So mine are not exhaustive.
- André
2016-11-15 16:05 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
On 11/14/2016 5:40 PM, Lieven wrote:
I only see that canon examples sometimes use "must" and sometimes "need". Maybe it's me again proving my lack of english knowledge that you see more than I do? Or is this up to personal interpretation?
Here's <http://www.engvid.com/modals-of-necessity/> an excellent video explanation of the difference between *need* and *have to* (and *have to* equals *must*). It says that *have to* focuses on the consequences of not doing something, while *need* focuses on the benefit of doing something. If you *have to* do something, there is some agency requiring it of you; this is not the case with *need.*
However, the reality isn't all that clear-cut. People interchange *need, must,* and *have to* all the time.
For instance, while *nIteb SuvnIS DevwI' *is translated with *must* instead of *need,* there is no sense in this sentence that any agency is imposing lone-fighting on a leader; rather, it's saying that a leader has a personal necessity of lone-fighting. So don't count too much on these terms having distinct meanings when used in colloquial English.
Now, if someone wants to pull up a few instances of *-nIS* being used where an agency is imposing an action and consequences of failure on the subject, and not just instances where the English translation uses *must,* I'll be happy to revise my opinion.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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jatlh SuStel:
Here's<http://www.engvid.com/modals-of-necessity/> an excellent video explanation of the difference between
need and have to (and have to equals must). It says that have to
focuses on the consequences of not doing something, while need
focuses on the benefit of doing something. If you have to do
something, there is some agency requiring it of you; this is not
the case with need.
However, the reality isn't all that clear-cut. People interchange
need, must, and have to all the time.
I agree with SuStel that you can't "count too much on these terms having distinct meanings when used in colloquial English." In my own use of English I mostly use them interchangeably with no difference of meaning. When I do distinguish them (as in "I don't have to, I need to"), it's not a question of consequence versus benefit, but rather a question of choice versus reason. I agree that "have to" implies some sort of agency that will force you, if you choose not to and "need to" implies there is a purpose to the action (either obtaining benefit or avoiding consequence). But I interpret the agency of "have to " pretty broadly in my use. I have to go to the grocery store, because if I don't, then my body will rebel against me and begin to shut down. In a strict interpretation, I don't HAVE to go to the store - I could just lie here and die. But in reality, it's not actually much of a choice and I do HAVE to go to the store. If, someone in the Klingon High Council simply said, {maSachnIS}. They might possibly mean that the benefits to Empire would be so great that it is the only sensible choice. But once they add {mataHmeH maSachnIS}, it no longer becomes a choice. "IF we are going to continue, the only course of action that leads to that result is expanding." "In order to continue, we have to expand, not need to, but have to." The rules of the universe demand it! And what about the sentence {yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'}. It doesn't imply the same thing as {yInluHtaH 'e' bajchughlu'} "If you work hard, you can survive." Working hard is not a good idea because it results in a benefit of survival. Working hard is the only path to survival. If you want to survive, then your only choice is working hard. I clearly see {-nIS} being used not only for desirable outcomes, but also for when no choice is given except to do the action tagged with {-nIS}. Who exactly is forcing these choices or enforcing these outcomes? I have difficulty limiting such agency in any usable way. {maSopnISbej.} Sure there is not an actual person standing there force feeding us. None the less, there are forces at work which drive us to eat even when we don't really want to - perhaps even when we think it is a bad idea. If we haven't eaten in days and we come across rotting food that is likely to cause us to be very sick, can't we still use {maSopnISbej} to describe the instinctual drive to eat even though we know it's a bad idea.
For instance, while nIteb SuvnIS DevwI' is translated with must
instead of need, there is no sense in this sentence that any
agency is imposing lone-fighting on a leader; rather, it's saying
that a leader has a personal necessity of lone-fighting.
Human nature dictates that others may abandon him. Honor dictates that he must fight alone, even when abandoned. Psychology dictates that even when he is not abandoned that because he is leading and the others are following, he will feel like he doing something different and thus is alone. He has the choice to not fight and there is no being making him fight like a puppet or threatening consequences if he doesn't, but there are many pressures pushing him forward into that fight. Let's draw up a scenario where Kirk and his crew are captured and forced to fight others. Perhaps for the amusement of their captors or perhaps for the right to be freed, or whatever. Kirk is put into the arena with three opponents and argues that he should be allowed to have some of his crew members help him fight, but the captors refuse. Here there is clear agency. The captors are the one's setting the requirement to fight alone. Is it being suggested that we cannot apply {nIteb SuvnIS DevwI'} to this situation? Jeremy
On 11/16/2016 1:15 PM, David Holt wrote:
Let's draw up a scenario where Kirk and his crew are captured and forced to fight others. Perhaps for the amusement of their captors or perhaps for the right to be freed, or whatever. Kirk is put into the arena with three opponents and argues that he should be allowed to have some of his crew members help him fight, but the captors refuse. Here there is clear agency. The captors are the one's setting the requirement to fight alone. Is it being suggested that we cannot apply {nIteb SuvnIS DevwI'} to this situation?
Yes. Kirk doesn't /need/ to fight alone; he is /ordered/ to fight alone. *nIteb Suv DevwI' net poQ/ra'/qap/raD/qaSmoH.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
jatlh SuStel:
Yes. Kirk doesn't need to fight alone; he is ordered to fight
alone. nIteb Suv DevwI' net poQ/ra'/qap/raD/qaSmoH.
I don't see the difference. vIleghnIS. = vIlegh net raD «I need to see him/her.» bISopnIS. = bISop 'e' poQ porghlIj «You need to eat.» mataHmeH maSachnIS. = mataHmeH maSach 'e' qap to' «To survive, we must expand.» yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'. = yInlu'taH 'e' bajlu' 'e' poQ 'u' «Survival must be earned.» DaH jIbwIj vISay'nISmoH. = DaH jIbwIj vISay'moH 'e' vIpoQ «I must wash my hair now.» jaghpu' mo' wIyajnIS. [slang] = jaghpu' mo' wIyaj 'e' qap to' «We must understand the enemies' motive.» maSopnISbej. = maSop 'e' poQbej porghDu'maj «We certainly need to eat.» yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'. = yay chavlu' 'e' bajlu' net poQ. «Victory must be earned.» DIHIvlaHtaHvIS DaH DIHIvnIS! = DIHIvlaHtaHvIS DaH DIHIv 'e' ra' to' «Attack them now, while we still can!» vergh 'ach DIlnISbe' = vergh 'ach DIl net qaSmoHbe' «free parking» Qel vISamnIS. = Qel vISam 'e' poQ 'oy' «I need to find a doctor. / I need a doctor.» DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu'! = DungDaq legh 'ej QottaH romuluSngan be'pu' net qap «Romulan women belong on their backs!» chalDaq DapawmeH wutlhDaq bInejnIS. = chalDaq DapawmeH wutlhDaq bInej net poQ «To reach the heavens, you must seek underground.» qaghobnISchugh maghobchuq! = qaghob 'e' Daqapchugh maghobchuq! «I will fight you if I must!» molor DaQapbe'nISmoH. = molor DaQapbe'moH 'e' vIra' «Molor must be stopped.» qeylIS HoHmeH qotar qeylIS SamnIS. = qeylIS HoHmeH qotar qeylIS Sam 'e' raD «Kahless must be hunted down and killed.» Qochbe'nIS. = Qochbe' net poQ «He/she/they need(s) to not disagree. / He/she/they need(s) to agree.» QochnISbe'. = Qoch net poQbe' «He/she/they do(es) not need to disagree.» ngajmo' jajvam, nom bIlopnIS. = ngahmo' jajvam, nom bIlop 'e' bIraD «Because this day is short, you have to celebrate it quickly.*» tugh QInvam lulaDlaH ghojwI'pu' chu' 'ej QaHnISbe' jatlhwI'pu' po'qu'. = ... 'ej QaH jatlhwI'pu' po'qu' 'e' poQbe' ghojwI'pu' chu' «Soon the new learners can read this message and the expert speakers don't need to help.*» Jeremy
On 11/16/2016 2:31 PM, David Holt wrote:
jatlh SuStel:
Yes. Kirk doesn't /need/ to fight alone; he is /ordered/ to fight alone. *nIteb Suv DevwI' net poQ/ra'/qap/raD/qaSmoH.* I don't see the difference. vIleghnIS. = vIlegh net raD
«I need to see him/her.»
*vIleghnIS */I need to see it /I have a personal requirement to see it, the fulfillment of which will result in personal benefit. No outside agency has imposed on me the task of seeing it. *vIlegh net raD */I am compelled to see it /Some agency forces me to see it. Whether I derive any benefit from seeing it is completely irrelevant. *vIlegh net poQ */I am required to see it /Some agency demands that I see it; I may or may not do so. Whether I derive any benefit from seeing it is completely irrelevant. And so on for all your examples. They are not equal. The English text chosen is irrelevant, because English /need, must,/ and /have to/ are often used interchangeably, even though they /do/ have distinct meanings. If you see me dancing up and down, you might conclude that *puch vIlo'nIS*/I need to use the toilet./ Going to the bathroom will result in the benefit of not peeing in my pants, but no one is requiring me to go. If you're my boss and you tell me *puch yIlo' */use the toilet!/ I can now truthfully say *puch vIlo' net poQ*/I am required to use the bathroom,/ because you are the outside agency making the demand, and it's my job to do what you say, regardless of the state of or danger to my pants. I can also continue to say *puch vIlo'nIS,* because my own personal need has not disappeared, but it says nothing about your demand. If you, my boss, were to tell me, *javmaH tat chu'wI' tIje'*/buy sixty ion triggers!/ but I find the buying of ion triggers a despicable act, I can truthfully say that *javmaH tat chu'wI' vIje' net poQ**'ach vIje'nISqu'be'*/I am required to buy sixty ion triggers//but I don't /need/to buy them. /I don't personally have any such need, but I do have to do it anyway. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
The benefit of -nIS seems to be brevity. I could say rav vIbI' 'e' ra' yaS, but if I arrive with a broom and announce rav vIbI'nIS, no one will think I have a personal need to sweep the floor. ~mIp'av
jatlh SuStel:
vIleghnIS I need to see it I have a personal requirement to see it, the fulfillment of which
will result in personal benefit. No outside agency has imposed
on me the task of seeing it.
vIlegh net raD I am compelled to see it Some agency forces me to see it. Whether I derive any benefit
from seeing it is completely irrelevant.
vIlegh net poQ I am required to see it
I agree that the first is less specific and the second two specify different situations.
If you see me dancing up and down, you might conclude that
puch vIlo'nIS I need to use the toilet. Going to the bathroom will
result in the benefit of not peeing in my pants, but no one is
requiring me to go. If you're my boss and you tell me puch yIlo'
use the toilet! I can now truthfully say puch vIlo' net poQ I am
required to use the bathroom, because you are the outside
agency making the demand, and it's my job to do what you say,
regardless of the state of or danger to my pants. I can also
continue to say puch vIlo'nIS, because my own personal need
has not disappeared, but it says nothing about your demand.
I still don't get it. What's the difference between the agency of the boss and the agency of the bladder?
If you, my boss, were to tell me, javmaH tat chu'wI' tIje' buy
sixty ion triggers! but I find the buying of ion triggers a
despicable act, I can truthfully say that javmaH tat chu'wI' vIje'
net poQ 'ach vIje'nISqu'be' I am required to buy sixty ion
triggers but I don't need to buy them. I don't personally have
any such need, but I do have to do it anyway.
Sure you need them. If you don't you will lose your job and dishonor yourself. I can't get this contradictory statement to make any sense in my head. Your boss has caused the first part to be true and the second part to be false. Or perhaps your desire to keep your job has caused the first part to be true and the second part to be false. Your starship can do the same thing. Your OCD can do the same thing. Which of those count as an agent and which don't? Jeremy
On 11/16/2016 3:24 PM, David Holt wrote:
If you see me dancing up and down, you might conclude that
*puch vIlo'nIS*/I need to use the toilet./Going to the bathroom will
result in the benefit of not peeing in my pants, but no one is
requiring me to go. If you're my boss and you tell me *puch yIlo'*
/use the toilet!/I can now truthfully say *puch vIlo' net poQ*/I am/
/required to use the bathroom,/because you are the outside
agency making the demand, and it's my job to do what you say,
regardless of the state of or danger to my pants. I can also
continue to say*puch vIlo'nIS,*because my own personal need
has not disappeared, but it says nothing about your demand.
I still don't get it. What's the difference between the agency of the boss and the agency of the bladder?
I'm afraid I have run out of way to explain this difference. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 11/16/2016 3:24 PM, David Holt wrote:
If you see me dancing up and down, you might conclude that
*puch vIlo'nIS*/I need to use the toilet./Going to the bathroom will
result in the benefit of not peeing in my pants, but no one is
requiring me to go. If you're my boss and you tell me *puch yIlo'*
/use the toilet!/I can now truthfully say *puch vIlo' net poQ*/I am/
/required to use the bathroom,/because you are the outside
agency making the demand, and it's my job to do what you say,
regardless of the state of or danger to my pants. I can also
continue to say*puch vIlo'nIS,*because my own personal need
has not disappeared, but it says nothing about your demand.
I still don't get it. What's the difference between the agency of the boss and the agency of the bladder?
Wait, there's one last element: /need/ implies a kind of personal urgency; /must/ or /have to/ has less of such a sense; any urgency is imposed from outside. Really, there's a ton about this easily found: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=difference+between+need+and+must -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
jatlh SuStel:
Really, there's a ton about this easily found: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=difference+between+need+and+must
More than half of the links found in such a search say that there is no significant difference in how they are used in English. Many of those still go on to talk about a supposed subtle difference. I don't find the distinction they are making to be very meaningful and it doesn't really match how I differentiate them. Spanish also has a few different options for this kind of expression and I found similar disagreement and minimization in the Spanish discussions. Those searches have not helped me understand what the difference might be in Klingon.
Wait, there's one last element: need implies a kind of personal
urgency; must or have to has less of such a sense; any urgency is
imposed from outside.
So then the line is drawn at the outside edge of my own physiology and psychology? That would be convenient, but I certainly think many of André's examples and both of Alan's examples contradict that. I wonder if instead it is similar to the language/non-language issue. There would be no hard fast line, but the way you use it might give us a window into your thinking. By using {-nIS} perhaps some amount of personal investment is implied in the need/requirement and by using one of the "required/forced" verbs perhaps you are removing the individuals own desires/needs/fears from the sentence and making it more cold and impersonal. Jeremy
On 11/16/2016 4:15 PM, David Holt wrote:
Wait, there's one last element: /need/ implies a kind of personal
urgency; /must/ or /have to/ has less of such a sense; any urgency is
imposed from outside.
So then the line is drawn at the outside edge of my own physiology and psychology?
No, and now you're just oversimplifying. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:05 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Now, if someone wants to pull up a few instances of *-nIS* being used where an agency is imposing an action and consequences of failure on the subject, and not just instances where the English translation uses *must,* I'll be happy to revise my opinion.
I thought of one such example immediately, but I didn't respond because I expected it to have been in the list presented by André. Now that I've had time to read the rest of the thread, I see he didn't include it.
From Conversational Klingon: {vagh rep bImejnIS} "Checkout time is 5 am."
That certainly counts as an imposed requirement, even if a penalty for noncompliance is not explicitly stated. There's also {lupwI' DalIghnIS} "You must ride the jitney." I think it too is a relevant example, but I can accept someone disagreeing with that assessment.. -- ghunchu'wI'
On 11/16/2016 3:44 PM, Alan Anderson wrote:
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:05 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
Now, if someone wants to pull up a few instances of *-nIS* being used where an agency is imposing an action and consequences of failure on the subject, and not just instances where the English translation uses /must,/ I'll be happy to revise my opinion.
I thought of one such example immediately, but I didn't respond because I expected it to have been in the list presented by André. Now that I've had time to read the rest of the thread, I see he didn't include it.
From Conversational Klingon: {vagh rep bImejnIS} "Checkout time is 5 am."
That certainly counts as an imposed requirement, even if a penalty for noncompliance is not explicitly stated.
Yes, that's definitely a valid example of a "must" form of *-nIS*.
There's also {lupwI' DalIghnIS} "You must ride the jitney." I think it too is a relevant example, but I can accept someone disagreeing with that assessment..
I agree that it's likely a valid example, and I can see why it might be controversial as one. It's in response to the question, *pa' jIyIt'a'*/do I walk there? /(which is translated /can I walk there?/). It could go either way. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (9)
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Alan Anderson -
André Müller -
Christopher Kidder-Mostrom -
David Holt -
Ed Bailey -
kechpaja -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
SuStel