Expressing location and “prettier than all others” / Hoch DechtaH tI nIl
I think I’ll probably stop once I’ve done nine songs, since nine seems like a nice round number (in ternary), and I don’t think I’ll have the energy to do twenty seven. This one was fairly straightforward, since there is a formula to each verse, and rhyme isn’t a constraint, but I have a couple of questions about the formula: 1) IIUC the generally expected way to express that noun Y is in/on/at noun X is {(X)Daq 'oHtaH (Y)'e'}. How acceptable or unacceptable is it to abbreviate this to {(X)Daq (Y)}? I’ve used the shorter option below, but if that doesn’t really fly I can switch to the longer version; it just means that each line of Klingon text following that pattern takes up the musical space of two analogous lines from the English version, which would make the Klingon version even longer and more annoying than the already long and annoying English version. 2) Would {(X) (Y) law' Hoch latlhmey (Y) puS} mean that X is more Y than all other Xes, or that X is more Y than all other things, not limited to other Xes? I’m trying to express the former meaning without having to do {(X) (Y) law' Hoch (X)mey (Y) puS} every time, partly because being able to use {latlh} in every verse strengthens the formula, and partly because it’s already slightly awkward to accommodate different syllable counts for the different X items that appear in the verses. Anyway, here’s my reconstruction of the original Klingon for “The Green Grass Grows All Around”. I’m only going to bother with the intended meaning in English for the first verse, because the subsequent verses just plug new words into the formula: toH, vogh yavDaq, QemjIq tu'lu', QemjIq 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. So, somewhere in the ground, there was a hole, The hole was prettier than all others. The hole was in the ground, And grassy vegetation was surrounding everything, grassy vegetation, And grassy vegetation was surrounding everything. 'ej QemjIqDaq Sor woch tu'lu', Sorvetlh 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej SorDaq Qechjem'a' tu'lu', Qechjem'a' 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. Qechjem'a'Daq, Qechjem tu'lu', Qechjem 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej QechjemDaq, bartIq tu'lu', bartIq 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. vaj QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej bartIqDaq, bo'Degh juH tu'lu', bo'Degh juH 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. bo'Degh juHDaq, QIm mach tu'lu', QImvetlh 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. vaj juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej QImvetlhDaq bo'Degh tu'lu', bo'Degh 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej bo'DeghDaq, telHom tu'lu', telvetlh 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej telvetlhDaq, boHom tu'lu', bovetlh 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. vaj telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej bovetlhDaq, ghewHom tu'lu', ghewvetlh 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. vaj boDaq ghew, 'ej telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej ghewvetlhDaq, lerup tu'lu', lerup 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. ghewDaq lerup, 'ej boDaq ghew, 'ej telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej lerupDaq, roSghaH tu'lu', roSghaH 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. lerupDaq roSghaH, ghewDaq lerup, 'ej boDaq ghew, 'ej telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej roSghaHDaq 'o'rIS tu'lu', 'o'rIS 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. roSghaHDaq 'o'rIS, lerupDaq roSghaH, ghewDaq lerup, 'ej boDaq ghew, 'ej telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej 'o'rISDaq, HeySel tu'lu', HeySel 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. 'o'rISDaq HeySel, roSghaHDaq 'o'rIS, lerupDaq roSghaH, ghewDaq lerup, 'ej boDaq ghew, 'ej telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej HeySelDaq, valtIn tu'lu', valtIn 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. HeySelDaq valtIn, 'o'rISDaq HeySel, roSghaHDaq 'o'rIS, lerupDaq roSghaH, ghewDaq lerup, 'ej boDaq ghew, 'ej telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej valtInvetlh bavtaH tem mach, temvetlh 'IQ law' Hoch latlhmey 'IQ puS. valtIn bavtaH tem, HeySelDaq valtIn, 'o'rISDaq HeySel, roSghaHDaq 'o'rIS, lerupDaq roSghaH, ghewDaq lerup, 'ej boDaq ghew, 'ej telDaq bo, bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh, 'ej juHDaq QIm, bartIqDaq juH, QechjemDaq bartIq, Qechjem'a'Daq Qechjem, SorDaq Qechjem'a', QemjIqDaq Sor, yavDaq QemjIq, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl. 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl, tI nIl, 'ej Hoch DechtaH tI nIl.
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 8:37 AM, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
1) IIUC the generally expected way to express that noun Y is in/on/at noun X is {(X)Daq 'oHtaH (Y)'e'}. How acceptable or unacceptable is it to abbreviate this to {(X)Daq (Y)}? I’ve used the shorter option below, but if that doesn’t really fly I can switch to the longer version; it just means that each line of Klingon text following that pattern takes up the musical space of two analogous lines from the English version, which would make the Klingon version even longer and more annoying than the already long and annoying English version.
In Proper Grammatical Klingon, it wouldn't fly at all. You need to have a verb. We do know that sometimes grammatical rules get broken for the sake of poetry, though we don't know what kinds of grammatical errors are considered more acceptable than others in poetry. I don't think we have examples of "X is at Y" being abbreviated like that. We do have a chapter of the paq'batlh titled {qamchIyDaq 'uQ'a'} "The Feast at Kam-Chee", which is a similar construction (that is similarly ungrammatical), though it's a noun phrase and not a whole sentence. (That is, it's not supposed to mean "The feast is at Kam-Chee.") If you wanted to claim poetic license, I'd be willing to accept it, since the meaning isn't unclear and you're not just doing it because you don't know how to properly translate "the hole was in the ground". But if you're trying to go for strict grammar, you're going to need to change it. 2) Would {(X) (Y) law' Hoch latlhmey (Y) puS} mean that X is more Y than
all other Xes, or that X is more Y than all other things, not limited to other Xes? I’m trying to express the former meaning without having to do {(X) (Y) law' Hoch (X)mey (Y) puS} every time, partly because being able to use {latlh} in every verse strengthens the formula, and partly because it’s already slightly awkward to accommodate different syllable counts for the different X items that appear in the verses.
What sort of things X is being compared to (i.e., other Xs) will probably be obvious from context. You're fine. Strictly speaking, you probably don't need the {latlh} at all, but I assume it's there for the syllable count. (The usual {X Q law' Hoch Q puS} construction already has an implied {latlh}: {wo'rIv yoH law' Hoch yoH puS}, if interpreted literally the way you interpret other comparatives, would mean "Worf is braver than everyone (including himself).")
Anyway, here’s my reconstruction of the original Klingon for “The Green Grass Grows All Around”. I’m only going to bother with the intended meaning in English for the first verse, because the subsequent verses just plug new words into the formula:
{qeSHom}: I don't know if you went with {tI nIl} because of the metrical quality or something like that, but we do have a word for grass: {magh}.
Thanks, nIqolay, SuStel, voragh je.
On Jun 12, 2018, at 09:55, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
If you wanted to claim poetic license, I'd be willing to accept [ yavDaq QemjIq], since the meaning isn't unclear and you're not just doing it because you don't know how to properly translate "the hole was in the ground". But if you're trying to go for strict grammar, you're going to need to change it.
I’m not necessarily going for strict grammar, but I also don’t want to break rules unless not breaking them is overly burdensome. I suppose in the Terran version, the equivalent phrases are sentence fragments as well (“Oh the wing on the bird, and the bird in the egg” is roughly equivalent grammatically to “bo'DeghDaq tel, QImDaq bo'Degh”), but since there’s a reasonable likelihood that someone might actually look to these songs as examples of Klingon grammar, I should be safe and do e.g. “vaj bo'DeghDaq 'oHtaH tel'e', 'ej QImDaq 'oHtaH bo'Degh'e'”. Like I said, it works metrically, it just consumes 2x as much time as the equivalent English lines, making this song even longer and more annoying. However, since I consider how long and annoying this song to be a feature and not a bug, that’s not a problem for me.
What sort of things X is being compared to (i.e., other Xs) will probably be obvious from context. You're fine. Strictly speaking, you probably don't need the {latlh} at all, but I assume it's there for the syllable count.
Yes, “Hoch 'IQ puS” isn’t quite enough syllables for what I want. I’ve also used “latlhmey” instead of “latlh” because I read a rule that says explicitly plural nouns after Hoch make the Hoch read as “all”, and non-explicit plural nouns make Hoch read as “each”, though I suppose either meaning is fine for my purposes.
{qeSHom}: I don't know if you went with {tI nIl} because of the metrical quality or something like that, but we do have a word for grass: {magh}.
It was just because I already knew the word {nIl}, and didn’t bother looking up a word for grass. {magh SuD} works just as well metrically, although unless someone knows for sure that grass on Qo'noS is also SuD, I might leave it as {tI nIl} to keep it planet-agnostic. Or maybe {magh nIl}, if that doesn’t sound as redundant in Klingon as it does in English. SuStel wrote:
the alternative is more complicated to say, so why not use what Okrand gave us?
Because I wanted more syllables than I could get with “Hoch 'IQ puS”, and also because my knowledge of canon is not yet well developed. Until maybe three months ago or so (when the Duolingo Klingon course launched), anything more advanced than “nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'” was beyond my ability to understand and analyze. Now that I have a better mental model of Klingon grammar, I think it’s probably time to read the grammar section of TKD front-to-back. I had tried doing that in past attempts to learn Klingon, but didn’t build a good enough understanding to be able to retain anything that I read, so I just gave up and memorized the more amusing phrases from the phrase list instead.
ghItlhpu' nIqolay, jatlh:
If you wanted to claim poetic license, I'd be willing to accept [ yavDaq QemjIq],
since the meaning isn't unclear and you're not just doing it because you don't
know how to properly translate "the hole was in the ground". But if you're
trying to go for strict grammar, you're going to need to change it.
jang Daniel, jatlh:
I’m not necessarily going for strict grammar, but I also don’t want to break rules
unless not breaking them is overly burdensome. I suppose in the Terran version,
the equivalent phrases are sentence fragments as well (“Oh the wing on the bird,
and the bird in the egg”
Are they? Huh. The version of the song I'm familiar with deploys full sentences: "And the wing was on the bird, and the bird was in the egg, and the egg was in the nest, and the nest was in the tree, and the tree was in the wood, and the green grass grew all around, all around, and the green grass grew all around". That's folk songs for you. In either case, I agree with the others that you should steer clear of {X-Daq Y}. The only two examples we have of that construction are labels (one on BoP, one a paq'batlh chapter heading) and consequently are probably abbreviated from something longer anyway. In a coherent text like a song, I'd consider them completely off-limits. (poD vay') taH:
Or maybe {magh nIl}, if that doesn’t sound as redundant in Klingon as it does in English.
This is a children's song, so I see no problem with {magh nIl} even with that bit of semantic redundancy. In any case, in English "green grass" is relatively redundant anyway, as grass is the stereotypical green object (and both arise from the same etymological origin, along with the verb "grow", which is why "green grass grew" alliterates so neatly). Alternatively, what about rendering the English directly as {magh SuD}? taH:
Now that I have a better mental model of Klingon grammar, I think it’s probably time to read the grammar section of TKD front-to-back.
If you've gotten to this point without having read through the TKD grammar sketch, then you've done amazingly well. But yes, TKD is still basically crucial to give the full grammatical picture, including the finer nuances of idiom. QeS 'utlh
On Jun 12, 2018, at 23:44, Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:
jang Daniel, jatlh:
I suppose in the Terran version, the equivalent phrases are sentence fragments as well (“Oh the wing on the bird, and the bird in the egg”
Are they? Huh. The version of the song I'm familiar with deploys full sentences: "And the wing was on the bird, and the bird was in the egg, and the egg was in the nest, and the nest was in the tree, and the tree was in the wood, and the green grass grew all around, all around, and the green grass grew all around". That's folk songs for you.
Hah, folk songs indeed. The version I know also says “green grass grows” in the present tense, but luckily Klingon isn’t burdened by such distinctions.
grass is the stereotypical green object (and both arise from the same etymological origin, along with the verb "grow", which is why "green grass grew" alliterates so neatly).
Wow, that is really cool! I never did get very far in learning my PIE roots, but I remember my mind being blown when I learned of connections between words that seemed fairly distinct from one another. (Although I wouldn’t put it past myself to have known about *ghre-, which I had to look up just now, at some point 15 years or so ago, only to have long forgotten it.)
Alternatively, what about rendering the English directly as {magh SuD}?
Right, I called that out as a possibility, but I don’t know what color grass is on Qo'noS, and where possible I want to keep things planet-agnostic.
If you've gotten to this point without having read through the TKD grammar sketch, then you've done amazingly well.
Thanks, but to be perfectly clear, I *have* read through the grammar sketch, multiple times in fact, but until I had developed a better understanding of how to use the language in practice, I wasn’t able to retain anything apart from the basics (SVO word order, the existence of affixes but not how to use them, beyond noun type 2 and verb type 7 for some reason, and first/second person subject with third person object verb prefixes), which held me back from growing a better understanding of how to use the language, so it was a bit of a feedback cycle. I probably could have tried harder if I had been more motivated at the time (I’ve been trying to learn Klingon on and off since the early-mid '90s, never devoting more than a week or two to the effort at a time, and never getting far); I think the excellent Klingon in Discovery rekindled my interest, and the Duolingo course launching shortly after is what pushed me over the edge. What I meant is that now that I can actually make sense of what TKD is actually saying, it’s time to read it again, mInDu' chu' vIlo'taHvIs.
QeS 'utlh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6/12/2018 8:37 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
1) IIUC the generally expected way to express that noun Y is in/on/at noun X is {(X)Daq 'oHtaH (Y)'e'}. How acceptable or unacceptable is it to abbreviate this to {(X)Daq (Y)}?
I would accept it as clipped Klingon, but not as formally grammatical Klingon.
2) Would {(X) (Y) law' Hoch latlhmey (Y) puS} mean that X is more Y than all other Xes, or that X is more Y than all other things, not limited to other Xes? I’m trying to express the former meaning without having to do {(X) (Y) law' Hoch (X)mey (Y) puS} every time, partly because being able to use {latlh} in every verse strengthens the formula, and partly because it’s already slightly awkward to accommodate different syllable counts for the different X items that appear in the verses.
/More than all others/ is just another way to say /most,/ and that's the superlative construction. *HoD Dun law' Hoch Dun puS. */The captain is the greatest./ If you want to put the superlative in context, you can model a line from /Star Trek V/ and get: *SuvwI''e' HoD Dun law' Hoch Dun puS. */The captain is the greatest warrior. As for warriors, the captain is the greatest./ Or you can just rely on context to make the superlative clear: *Dun Hoch SuvwI'pu' 'ach le'bej HoDma'. Devchu'. baHDI' not baHHa'. tlheDnISchugh reH pe'vIl chegh. HoDma' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS.* Technically speaking, I don't see anything wrong with saying *HoD Dun law' Hoch latlh SuvwI'pu' Dun puS*/The captain is greater than all other warriors,/ but we're given rules for the superative, and the alternative is more complicated to say, so why not use what Okrand gave us? ** -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Another example from ST5: <qIbDaq SuvwI''e'> SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS You would be the greatest warrior in the galaxy. (ST5) And while we’re on the topic, here are some more ways of using law’/puS (I’ve bracketed the introductory phrase/clause) : <jonlu'meH> wo'maj pop tIn law' Hoch tIn puS Our Empire's highest bounty has been placed on his head. (ST5 notes) <tlhutlhmeH> HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS Drinking fake ale is better than drinking water. (TKW) <noH ghoblu'DI'> yay quv law' Hoch quv puS In war there is nothing more honorable than victory. (TKW) <reH latlh qabDaq> qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS The fire is always hotter on someone else's face. (PK) <tlhIngan wo' yuQmey chovlu'chugh> Qo'noS potlh law' Hoch potlh puS The principal planet of the Klingon Empire, Qo'noS... (S27) <cha’ DISmo’> jIH qan law’ SoH qan puS I'm two years older than you. (Lieven < Okrand, 7/25/2016) <cha’ ’ujmo’> jIH woch law’ SoH woch puS I'm two 'ujes taller than you. (Lieven < Okrand, 7/25/2016) And the here’s the most complicated law’/puS we’ve seen: <DujvamDaq tlhIngan nuH tu'lu'bogh> pov law' Hoch pov puS 'ej <DujvamDaq 'op SuvwI' tu'lu'bogh> po' law' <tlhIngan yo' SuvwI' law'> po' puS It [the IKC Pagh] has the best weapons and some of the finest warriors in the Klingon fleet. (S7) --Voragh From: SuStel On 6/12/2018 8:37 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote: 2) Would {(X) (Y) law' Hoch latlhmey (Y) puS} mean that X is more Y than all other Xes, or that X is more Y than all other things, not limited to other Xes? I’m trying to express the former meaning without having to do {(X) (Y) law' Hoch (X)mey (Y) puS} every time, partly because being able to use {latlh} in every verse strengthens the formula, and partly because it’s already slightly awkward to accommodate different syllable counts for the different X items that appear in the verses. More than all others is just another way to say most, and that's the superlative construction. HoD Dun law' Hoch Dun puS. The captain is the greatest. If you want to put the superlative in context, you can model a line from Star Trek V and get: SuvwI''e' HoD Dun law' Hoch Dun puS. The captain is the greatest warrior. As for warriors, the captain is the greatest. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 6/12/2018 3:03 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Another example from ST5:
<qIbDaq SuvwI''e'> SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS You would be the greatest warrior in the galaxy. (ST5)
Yes, that's the one I was referring to. I type it so often, sometimes I get tired of doing so.
And while we’re on the topic, here are some more ways of using law’/puS (I’ve bracketed the introductory phrase/clause) :
<jonlu'meH> wo'maj pop tIn law' Hoch tIn puS Our Empire's highest bounty has been placed on his head. (ST5 notes)
I wonder if this isn't using *jonlu'meH wo'maj pop* as a noun phrase. Instead of /In order to capture, our empire's reward is the biggest,/ it's /our empire reward for capturing./ Actually, I'd prefer to see it as *wo'maj jonmeH pop,* but Okrand's purpose clauses are all pretty weird for /Star Trek V./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (5)
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Daniel Dadap -
nIqolay Q -
Rhona Fenwick -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel