There are certain special forms of law' puS constructions, which are discussed at HolQeD 13.1, p.8-10, Mar. 2004. Because there are more chances for me to visit Qo'noS, than ever acquiring any HolQeD issues, I would like to ask: 1. At this HQ issue it says: "To say that something is as X as something else [...], or {law'} is used with {rap} or {nIb} (the latter of which implies the two things being compared are exactly the same in some way). And the following examples are given: {tlhIngan woch law' tera'ngan woch rap} The klingon is as tall as the terran {tlhIngan woch law' tera'ngan woch nIb} The klingon is (exactly) as tall as the terran The question I want to ask is: Is it possible at the examples above, to have {puS} instead of {law'}, and if yes, then how does that alter the meaning ? 2. At the same HQ issue it says: "It is also possible to use {puS} with {rap} or {nIb}, but that carries a connotation of disparagement". What does this mean ? Can someone who knows for certain write an example ? 3. At the same HQ issues it also says: "To say that something is not as X as something else, {pIm} is used in place of the second verb in the pair". And the following example is given: {QuchlIj vIl law' QuchwIj vIl pIm} Your forehead is not as ridgy as my forehead I want to ask, if in this sentence in the place of {law'} we could have {puS}. And if the answer is yes, then how does that alter the meaning ? qunnoq
On 8/4/2017 9:15 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
There are certain special forms of law' puS constructions, which are discussed at HolQeD 13.1, p.8-10, Mar. 2004.
Because there are more chances for me to visit Qo'noS, than ever acquiring any HolQeD issues, I would like to ask:
1. At this HQ issue it says:
"To say that something is as X as something else [...], or {law'} is used with {rap} or {nIb} (the latter of which implies the two things being compared are exactly the same in some way).
And the following examples are given:
{tlhIngan woch law' tera'ngan woch rap} The klingon is as tall as the terran {tlhIngan woch law' tera'ngan woch nIb} The klingon is (exactly) as tall as the terran
The question I want to ask is: Is it possible at the examples above, to have {puS} instead of {law'}, and if yes, then how does that alter the meaning ?
2. At the same HQ issue it says:
"It is also possible to use {puS} with {rap} or {nIb}, but that carries a connotation of disparagement".
What does this mean ? Can someone who knows for certain write an example ?
Your point 2 answers your point 1. *tlhIngan woch puS tera'ngan woch rap* means /the Klingon is as tall as the Terran, and that's a bad thing./
3. At the same HQ issues it also says:
"To say that something is not as X as something else, {pIm} is used in place of the second verb in the pair". And the following example is given:
{QuchlIj vIl law' QuchwIj vIl pIm} Your forehead is not as ridgy as my forehead
I want to ask, if in this sentence in the place of {law'} we could have {puS}. And if the answer is yes, then how does that alter the meaning ?
Same answer. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Here are the variants of *law'/puS* and other comparatives we've gotten over the years. A Q *law'* B Q *puS */A is more Q than B/ A Q *law' Hoch* Q *puS */A is the most Q of all/ Q A;*rap* B /B is as Q as A/ Q A; *nIb* B /B is as Q as A/ (connotes precision) A Q *law'* B Q *rap */A is as Q as B/ A Q *puS* B Q *rap */A is as Q as B /(connotes disparagement, seldom used) A Q *law'* B Q *nIb */A is as Q as B/ (connotes precision) A Q *law'* B Q *law' */A is as Q as B /(connotes positive quality) A Q *puS* B Q *puS */A is as Q as B/ (connotes negative quality) A Q *law'* B Q *pIm */A's Q is different than B's Q**/(does not imply that one is more Q than the other, only that their Qs are different) A Q *law'be'* B Q *puSbe'* /A is not more Q than B/ Furthermore, wordplay, ungrammatical but common, allows one to substitute antonyms into the standard comparative and superlative constructions where *law'* and *puS* normally go. If the positive antonym is used in place of *law'* and the negative in place of *puS,* you get the same meaning as the standard *law'/puS.* If the order is reversed, you get /A is less Q than B./ The reversed version is seldom used. Okrand does not give any examples of doing this with *Hoch* in the B slot, but he says it can be done. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
This is a great summary. It belongs on one of the new (and forthcoming) KLI Trading Cards. On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 9:54 AM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Here are the variants of *law'/puS* and other comparatives we've gotten over the years.
A Q *law'* B Q *puS **A is more Q than B*
A Q *law' Hoch* Q *puS **A is the most Q of all*
Q A;* rap* B *B is as Q as A*
Q A; *nIb* B *B is as Q as A* (connotes precision)
A Q *law'* B Q *rap **A is as Q as B*
A Q *puS* B Q *rap **A is as Q as B *(connotes disparagement, seldom used)
A Q *law'* B Q *nIb **A is as Q as B* (connotes precision)
A Q *law'* B Q *law' **A is as Q as B *(connotes positive quality)
A Q *puS* B Q *puS **A is as Q as B* (connotes negative quality)
A Q *law'* B Q *pIm **A's Q is different than B's Q *(does not imply that one is more Q than the other, only that their Qs are different)
A Q *law'be'* B Q *puSbe'* *A is not more Q than B*
-- Dr. Lawrence M. Schoen :: author :: publisher :: psychologist :: hypnotist :: klingonist :::: Campbell, Hugo, Nebula, & WSFS Award nominee ::::: Cóyotl Award winner :::: www.lawrencemschoen.com ::: www.papergolem.com ::: www.hypnosis4writers.com
SuStel:
connotes negative quality (connotes disparagement, seldom used)
What is the difference between "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement" ? I googled disparagement, (because I didn't know its meaning), and I got the synonyms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation". The way I understand the "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discussing is: If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a negative quality) then I use {A Q *puS* B Q *puS}. *But if I want to say that the forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the phrase to have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {A Q *puS* B Q *rap}. *And maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccoked it, I will use again {A Q *puS* B Q *rap} *instead of the {A Q *puS* B Q *puS*} *. *Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns only the occupant of slot A, and not those in direct relation to him as well ? Am I right ? SuStel:
If the positive antonym is used in place of *law'* and the negative in place of *puS,* you get the same meaning as the standard *law'/puS.* If the order is reversed, you get *A is less Q than B.* The reversed version is seldom used. Okrand does not give any examples of doing this with *Hoch* in the B slot, but he says it can be done.
You mean that what 'oqranD says that can be done, is in an antonym construction placing the {Hoch} in the A slot, thus having that "all are less than.." ? ..and finally As far as the intentional ungrammaticality of the law' puS construction, as it is described in kgt is concerned.. Is someone allowed to make use of it regularly, or is it only to be used under special circumstances ? qunnoq On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Lawrence M. Schoen <klingonguy@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a great summary. It belongs on one of the new (and forthcoming) KLI Trading Cards.
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 9:54 AM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Here are the variants of *law'/puS* and other comparatives we've gotten over the years.
A Q *law'* B Q *puS **A is more Q than B*
A Q *law' Hoch* Q *puS **A is the most Q of all*
Q A;* rap* B *B is as Q as A*
Q A; *nIb* B *B is as Q as A* (connotes precision)
A Q *law'* B Q *rap **A is as Q as B*
A Q *puS* B Q *rap **A is as Q as B *(connotes disparagement, seldom used)
A Q *law'* B Q *nIb **A is as Q as B* (connotes precision)
A Q *law'* B Q *law' **A is as Q as B *(connotes positive quality)
A Q *puS* B Q *puS **A is as Q as B* (connotes negative quality)
A Q *law'* B Q *pIm **A's Q is different than B's Q *(does not imply that one is more Q than the other, only that their Qs are different)
A Q *law'be'* B Q *puSbe'* *A is not more Q than B*
-- Dr. Lawrence M. Schoen :: author :: publisher :: psychologist :: hypnotist :: klingonist :::: Campbell, Hugo, Nebula, & WSFS Award nominee ::::: Cóyotl Award winner :::: www.lawrencemschoen.com ::: www.papergolem.com ::: www. hypnosis4writers.com
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On 8/4/2017 10:56 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
connotes negative quality (connotes disparagement, seldom used)
What is the difference between "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement" ? I googled disparagement, (because I didn't know its meaning), and I got the synonyms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation".
The way I understand the "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discussing is:
If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a negative quality) then I use {A Q *puS* B Q *puS}. *But if I want to say that the forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the phrase to have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {A Q *puS* B Q *rap}. *And maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccoked it, I will use again {A Q *puS* B Q *rap} *instead of the {A Q *puS* B Q *puS*}*. *Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns only the occupant of slot A, and not those in direct relation to him as well ? * * Am I right ?
Disparagement is insult; negativity just means something is not good. *qagh let puS nagh let puS */the qagh is as hard as a stone /(so you should improve your recipe) *qagh let puS nagh let rap */the qagh is as hard as a stone/ (you incompetent chef!) When I wrote "connotes positive/negative quality," I suppose what I really should have said is "used with positive/negative qualities." You'll use the *law'/law'* form when you're saying A has an much of the positive quality Q as B; the *puS/puS* version when you're saying A has as much of the negative quality Q as B. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel wrote: Ø Your point 2 answers your point 1. tlhIngan woch puS tera'ngan woch rap means the Klingon is as tall as the Terran, and that's a bad thing. Disparagement is the act of speaking about someone in a negative or belittling way. Iagine a different sentence (said with a sneer): tlhInganvam woch puS verengan woch rap This Klingon is as tall as a Ferengi! --Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of mayqel qunenoS Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 9:57 AM SuStel:
connotes negative quality (connotes disparagement, seldom used)
What is the difference between "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement" ? I googled disparagement, (because I didn't know its meaning), and I got the synonyms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation". The way I understand the "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discussing is: If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a negative quality) then I use {A Q puS B Q puS}. But if I want to say that the forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the phrase to have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {A Q puS B Q rap}. And maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccoked it, I will use again {A Q puS B Q rap} instead of the {A Q puS B Q puS}. Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns only the occupant of slot A, and not those in direct relation to him as well ? Am I right ? SuStel:
If the positive antonym is used in place of law' and the negative in place of puS, you get the same meaning as the standard law'/puS. If the order is reversed, you get A is less Q than B. The reversed version is seldom used. Okrand does not give any examples of doing this with Hoch in the B slot, but he says it can be done.
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel:
connotes negative quality (connotes disparagement, seldom used)
What is the difference between "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement" ? I googled disparagement, (because I didn't know its meaning), and I got the synonyms of "devaluation, debasement, derogation".
The way I understand the "connotes negative quality" and "connotes disparagement", with regards to the matter we are discussing is:
If I want to say that the qagh is as dead as a stone (which is a negative quality) then I use {A Q *puS* B Q *puS}. *But if I want to say that the forehead of someone's mother is smooth as a peach, and I want the phrase to have the maximum insulting effect, then I will use {A Q *puS* B Q *rap}. *And maybe, in the qagh example, if I want to insult the chef who ccoked it, I will use again {A Q *puS* B Q *rap} *instead of the {A Q *puS* B Q *puS*} *. *Or is it that the "disparagement" concerns only the occupant of slot A, and not those in direct relation to him as well ?
I think you might be overthinking this. Looking back at the original source for the constructions ( http://klingonska.org/canon/2004-03-holqed-13-1.txt ), it seems that the primary difference is that {A Q puS B Q puS} puts more emphasis on the fact that Q is a bad quality to have, whereas in {A Q puS B Q rap} it's a more general sense of negativity about the situation, rather than anything specifically negative about Q itself. If I had to think of some examples: {tlhIngan yoH puS tera'ngan yoH rap} suggests that the speaker thinks it's a bad thing that the Klingon is as brave as the Terran. Perhaps they think Klingons should always be braver than Terrans, and think this particular Klingon is a disappointment. {tlhIngan yoH puS tera'ngan yoH puS} makes less sense, though, since being brave isn't a negative quality. To say someone's mother's forehead is as smooth as a peach, I think either construction would work. Since smoothness is a bad thing when applied to someone's forehead, the {puS/puS} construction makes sense. Likewise, since deadness is a bad thing when applied to gagh, I think either the {puS/rap} or the {puS/puS} construction would work. I don't think either one necessarily singles out the chef, though. They both mean roughly the same thing: "my gagh is dead as a rock, and that's bad".
As far as the intentional ungrammaticality of the law' puS construction, as it is described in kgt is concerned.. Is someone allowed to make use of it regularly, or is it only to be used under special circumstances ?
It's a form of wordplay, which means it's appropriate whenever wordplay is appropriate. You probably shouldn't do it too often, or when there's the opportunity for confusion, or at a very formal occasion, or in a situation where beginners are learning.
On 8/4/2017 11:24 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
As far as the intentional ungrammaticality of the law' puS construction, as it is described in kgt is concerned.. Is someone allowed to make use of it regularly, or is it only to be used under special circumstances ?
It's a form of wordplay, which means it's appropriate whenever wordplay is appropriate. You probably shouldn't do it too often, or when there's the opportunity for confusion, or at a very formal occasion, or in a situation where beginners are learning.
Only the stuff in KGT, which involves substituting different words for the *law'* and *puS,* is called wordplay by Okrand; all the stuff from the /HolQeD/ article about /as Q as/, /not more Q than,/ and /differently Q than/ is presented as ordinary grammar. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (5)
-
Lawrence M. Schoen -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel