Re: [tlhIngan Hol] {net Sov} vs {'e' Sovlu'}
{'e' -lu'} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-lu'} is on the verb {'aq}. Always, as soon as you find yourself wanting to say {yadda yadda 'e' *whatever*lu'} you should instead write {yadda yadda net whatever} ~ nI'ghma On Nov 30, 2017 9:12 PM, "Aurélie Demonchaux" <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> wrote: Today I am trying to grasp the difference between {net + verb} and {'e' + verb-lu'} The way I understand it is, for example with "Sov" net Sov = it is common knowledge that 'e' Sovlu' = someone (indefinite) knows that Thus: qama'pu' DIHoHbe' net Sov = It is common knowledge that we don't kill prisoners qama'pu' DIHoHbe' 'e' Sovlu' = It is known / someone knows that we don't kill prisoners Similarly with chaw' : qama'pu' DIHoH net chaw'be' = we are not allowed to kill prisoners qama'pu' DIHoH 'e' chaw'lu'be' = someone does not allow us to kill prisoners Am I getting it right ? Thanks in advance! Aurélie ghItlhjaj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
From: mayqel qunenoS
{'e' -lu'} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-lu'} is on the verb {'aq}.
SIS 'e' 'aqlu', javmaH vatlhvI' DIch It is predicted it will rain, 60% certainty. (qep'a' 2017) However, the {'e' -lu'} pattern can indeed be used with verbs other than {‘aq}. E.g. Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'. You are chosen to serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the chancellor. MKE We’ve also seen the pattern {-lu' 'e' -lu'} used: yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu' Victory must be earned. TKW yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu' Survival must be earned. TKW DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH qep. Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue. MKE And we’ve even seen the pattern {-lu' net}: vImuHlu' net wuqHa'! My death sentence was commuted! (ENT "Affliction") -- Voragh From: mayqel qunenoS {'e' -lu'} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-lu'} is on the verb {'aq}. Always, as soon as you find yourself wanting to say {yadda yadda 'e' *whatever*lu'} you should instead write {yadda yadda net whatever} ~ nI'ghma On Nov 30, 2017 9:12 PM, "Aurélie Demonchaux" <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com<mailto:demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com>> wrote: Today I am trying to grasp the difference between {net + verb} and {'e' + verb-lu'} The way I understand it is, for example with "Sov" net Sov = it is common knowledge that 'e' Sovlu' = someone (indefinite) knows that Thus: qama'pu' DIHoHbe' net Sov = It is common knowledge that we don't kill prisoners qama'pu' DIHoHbe' 'e' Sovlu' = It is known / someone knows that we don't kill prisoners Similarly with chaw' : qama'pu' DIHoH net chaw'be' = we are not allowed to kill prisoners qama'pu' DIHoH 'e' chaw'lu'be' = someone does not allow us to kill prisoners Am I getting it right ? Thanks in advance! Aurélie ghItlhjaj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
voragh:
However, the {*'e' -lu'*} pattern can indeed be used with verbs other than {*‘aq*}.
This is new to me. I can't understand why on these examples the {'e' -lu'} pattern is used, but I do remember that on numerous occasions on this list, we have said (or I have been told) that it is not permissible. Do the examples that you posted, mean that we can freely use {'e' -lu'} ? As far as the {-lu' net} is concerned, I see no problem with it since it doesn't contradict any rule. ~ nI'ghma On Nov 30, 2017 10:00 PM, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
*From:* mayqel qunenoS
{'e' -lu'} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-lu'} is on the verb {'aq}.
* SIS 'e' 'aqlu', javmaH vatlhvI' DIch* It is predicted it will rain, 60% certainty. (qep'a' 2017)
However, the {*'e' -lu'*} pattern can indeed be used with verbs other than {*‘aq*}. E.g.
* Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'. *You are chosen to serve on the *Yan-Isleth* and protect the chancellor. MKE
We’ve also seen the pattern {*-lu' 'e' -lu'*} used:
* yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'*
Victory must be earned. TKW
* yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'* Survival must be earned. TKW
* DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH qep. *Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue. MKE
And we’ve even seen the pattern {*-lu' net*}:
* vImuHlu' net wuqHa'! * My death sentence was commuted! (ENT "Affliction")
-- Voragh
*From:* mayqel qunenoS
{*'e' -lu'*} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-*lu'*} is on the verb {*'aq*}.
Always, as soon as you find yourself wanting to say {yadda yadda *'e'* *whatever**lu'*} you should instead write {yadda yadda *net* whatever}
~ nI'ghma
On Nov 30, 2017 9:12 PM, "Aurélie Demonchaux" < demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> wrote:
Today I am trying to grasp the difference between {net + verb} and {'e' + verb-lu'}
The way I understand it is, for example with "Sov"
net Sov = it is common knowledge that
'e' Sovlu' = someone (indefinite) knows that
Thus:
qama'pu' DIHoHbe' net Sov = It is common knowledge that we don't kill prisoners
qama'pu' DIHoHbe' 'e' Sovlu' = It is known / someone knows that we don't kill prisoners
Similarly with chaw' :
qama'pu' DIHoH net chaw'be' = we are not allowed to kill prisoners
qama'pu' DIHoH 'e' chaw'lu'be' = someone does not allow us to kill prisoners
Am I getting it right ?
Thanks in advance!
Aurélie
ghItlhjaj
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Voragh:
However, the {'e' -lu'} pattern can indeed be used with verbs other than {‘aq}.
nI'ghma : Ø This is new to me. I can't understand why on these examples the {'e' -lu'} pattern is used, but I do remember that on numerous occasions on this list, we have said (or I have been told) that it is not permissible. Well I don’t think it’s exactly “not permissible”, just not recommended. Using {net} is simpler and easier to understand. Ø Do the examples that you posted, mean that we can freely use {'e' -lu'} ? I wouldn’t go crazy over-using it. It’s hardly ever used by Okrand, but it does exist. Ø As far as the {-lu' net} is concerned, I see no problem with it since it doesn't contradict any rule. I just wanted to give all the known variations since there are so few of them. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons On Nov 30, 2017 10:00 PM, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu<mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: From: mayqel qunenoS
{'e' -lu'} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-lu'} is on the verb {'aq}. SIS 'e' 'aqlu', javmaH vatlhvI' DIch It is predicted it will rain, 60% certainty. (qep'a' 2017) However, the {'e' -lu'} pattern can indeed be used with verbs other than {‘aq}. E.g. Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'. You are chosen to serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the chancellor. MKE We’ve also seen the pattern {-lu' 'e' -lu'} used: yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu' Victory must be earned. TKW yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu' Survival must be earned. TKW DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH qep. Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue. MKE And we’ve even seen the pattern {-lu' net}: vImuHlu' net wuqHa'! My death sentence was commuted! (ENT "Affliction") -- Voragh
From: mayqel qunenoS {'e' -lu'} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-lu'} is on the verb {'aq}. Always, as soon as you find yourself wanting to say {yadda yadda 'e' *whatever*lu'} you should instead write {yadda yadda net whatever} ~ nI'ghma On Nov 30, 2017 9:12 PM, "Aurélie Demonchaux" <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com<mailto:demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com>> wrote: Today I am trying to grasp the difference between {net + verb} and {'e' + verb-lu'} The way I understand it is, for example with "Sov" net Sov = it is common knowledge that 'e' Sovlu' = someone (indefinite) knows that Thus: qama'pu' DIHoHbe' net Sov = It is common knowledge that we don't kill prisoners qama'pu' DIHoHbe' 'e' Sovlu' = It is known / someone knows that we don't kill prisoners Similarly with chaw' : qama'pu' DIHoH net chaw'be' = we are not allowed to kill prisoners qama'pu' DIHoH 'e' chaw'lu'be' = someone does not allow us to kill prisoners Am I getting it right ? Thanks in advance! Aurélie ghItlhjaj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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mayqel qunenoS -
Steven Boozer