matlh juppu' mu'mey, from HolQeD 8-3, pages 2-4
I wanted to discuss some things after I would have finished klingonska, but I noticed something in a voragh sentence, which puzzled me greatly ; Before I start, I will make a trick question : As far as the behavior of adverbs is concerned, they are all the same, right ? Is there a difference between {tlhoy} and {chaq} ? So, hold that thought, and while you're holding that thought, let us read together the following excerpt provided by 'oqranD : matlh juppu' mu'mey, from HolQeD 8-3, pages 2-4 http://klingonska.org/canon/1999-09-holqed-08-3.txt -----START----- 2. too much The adverbial {tlhoy} means <overly, to an excessive degree>. It is used in such sentences as: {tlhoy jISop} I eat too much / I eat excessively {tlhoy bIQong} you sleep too much / you sleep excessively When {tlhoy} is used, it denotes that the action expressed by the verb ({Sop} <eat>, {Qong} <sleep>) is what is being overly done or done too much. Thus, the sentence: {tlhoy qagh vISop} I eat too much gagh / I eat gagh excessively / I overeat gagh expresses the notion that the eating is excessive, not that the amount of gagh is. (Note that although it is possible to say this, it is not something anybody would be likely to ever say). Similarly, {tlhoy yIHmey vIlegh} I see too many tribbles [[p.3]] means <I overly see tribbles> (perhaps this could be used if one meant something like "I see tribbles far too frequently and in far too many places"). To express the idea of "too much gagh" or "too many tribbles," the verb {'Iq} <be too many, be too much> is used adjectivally. For example: {yIHmey 'Iq vIlegh} I see too many tribbles {qagh 'Iq vISop} I eat too much gagh Sometimes, the word {law'qu'} <be very many> (formed from {law'} <be many> plus {-qu'}, the emphatic suffix) is translated "be too many." If the context is clear, this is acceptable, but if it is important to stress the idea of "overly many, overly much, more than there ought to be," {tlhoy} or {'Iq} is usually employed. -----END----- The way I process all this, is that the adverb refers to the verb of the sentence. So, now, let us look the sentence that the canon master provided for us at the "Disturbing irregularities" thread : chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH [Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.] PK This sentence is a SAO, utilizing {neH} and of course omitting the {'e'}. So far so good. A SAO construction is two sentences. The sentence before the {'e'} and the sentence after it. Adverbs, time stamps and indirect objects which refer to the second sentence are placed just before the {'e'}, or just before the {neH}. After all this, I would expect in the voragh sentence the {chaq} to be placed just before the {vIneH}, in order to express the "maybe I'd like to buy". The way, it is given, I read "I want to perhaps buy something from you". Not "perhaps I'd like to buy something from you". Maybe the difference is insignificant, but I believe that in the strict sense of the rules, the {chaq} should be placed before the {vIneH}. mIv Hurgh qunnoq
On 6/22/2016 1:19 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH [Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.] PK
Maybe the difference is insignificant, but I believe that in the strict sense of the rules, the {chaq} should be placed before the {vIneH}.
Yep. Consider also *reH DIvI Duj vISuv vIneH*/I've always wanted to fight a Federation ship/ (ST5). My best guess is that the placement of adverbials is different for *neH* than for *'e'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 1:28 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/22/2016 1:19 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH [Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.] PK
Maybe the difference is insignificant, but I believe that in the strict sense of the rules, the {chaq} should be placed before the {vIneH}.
Yep. Consider also *reH DIvI Duj vISuv vIneH** I've always wanted to fight a Federation ship* (ST5).
My best guess is that the placement of adverbials is different for *neH* than for *'e'.*
To me, the translation given in PK is ambiguous, which is why I think there's a different question here that needs to be considered. Specifically, is {chaq} modifying the verb {je'} or the verb {neH}. In my mind there's no question. The equivocation provided by {chaq} is all about the buying and not about whether you want it or not. A clearer translation than that found in PK might be: [I'd like to maybe buy something from you.] And of course, as we know Klingon doesn't bother with those useful tools of sentence separation like commas, periods, and semi-colons. That said, I suspect we can all agree that the final {vIneH} is its own sentence. -- Dr. Lawrence M. Schoen :: author :: publisher :: psychologist :: hypnotist :: klingonist ::: Campbell Award nominee :::: Hugo Award nominee :::: Nebula Award nominee ::: www.lawrencemschoen.com ::: www.papergolem.com ::: www.hypnosis4writers.com
The bracketed translation in PK is my own – IIRC this line by the hapless Klingon-speaking tourist was not translated on the tape -- so don’t take it as gospel. FWIW here’s my transcript of the untranslated shopping scene that begins “Power Klingon” (T = Terran tourist, K = Klingon merchant): K nuqneH [What do you want?] T 'IH jaj qar'a'? maja'chuqjaj [Beautiful day, isn't it? Can we talk?] K jISaHbe' [I don't care.] T bISaHbe'? qatlh bIjatlh [You don't care?! Why do you say that?] chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH [Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.] K tugh! SSS... bIje'be'chugh vaj bIHegh [Hurry up! Buy or die!] quvwIj DatIchpu', tera'ngan [You have insulted my honor, Terran.] bIyIntaH 'e' Daqotlhbe' [You don't deserve to live (“keep living”).] <sound of disruptor fire> T yIjotchoH [Calm down!] <sound of more disruptor fire> T Dochvetlh yItlhap [Take that!] <sound of phaser fire followed by more disruptor fire> <Terran screams as he’s hit by disruptor blast> All of which shows that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Especially on Kronos. Voragh From: Lawrence M. Schoen Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:43 PM On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 1:28 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote: On 6/22/2016 1:19 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote: chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH [Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.] PK Maybe the difference is insignificant, but I believe that in the strict sense of the rules, the {chaq} should be placed before the {vIneH}. Yep. Consider also reH DIvI Duj vISuv vIneH I've always wanted to fight a Federation ship (ST5). My best guess is that the placement of adverbials is different for neH than for 'e'. To me, the translation given in PK is ambiguous, which is why I think there's a different question here that needs to be considered. Specifically, is {chaq} modifying the verb {je'} or the verb {neH}. In my mind there's no question. The equivocation provided by {chaq} is all about the buying and not about whether you want it or not. A clearer translation than that found in PK might be: [I'd like to maybe buy something from you.] And of course, as we know Klingon doesn't bother with those useful tools of sentence separation like commas, periods, and semi-colons. That said, I suspect we can all agree that the final {vIneH} is its own sentence.
SuStel :
My best guess is that the placement of adverbials is different for neH than for 'e'.
This is an interesting theory indeed. Lawrence M. Schoen
A clearer translation than that found in PK might be: [I'd like to maybe buy something from you.]
I agree ; this was my original translation too, as soon as I read the original klingon sentence. And I believe this could be the reason that the klingon merchant was pissed. The sentence "maybe I want to buy something", focuses its meaning on the "I want". But the sentence "I want to maybe buy something focuses on the "buy" and *feels*, as if the terran actually wants to be uncertain. And I think that the latter, is what insults the klingon merchant, who perceives the terran as playing with his nerves. Maybe 'oqranD deliberately wrote the sentence this way, to demonstrate that misplacing an adverb on Qo'noS could have serious consequences. meqvammo' Qo'noSDaq vIghoSQo' ! pa', qaStaHvIS rep wa'DIch, - jIbej - muHoH ! because of this reason, I would never go to kronos ! they would have killed me there, within the hour ! Ca'non master :
FWIW here’s my transcript of the untranslated shopping scene
nuq FWIW ? mop Hurgh On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
The bracketed translation in PK is my own – IIRC this line by the hapless Klingon-speaking tourist was not translated on the tape -- so don’t take it as gospel.
FWIW here’s my transcript of the untranslated shopping scene that begins “Power Klingon” (T = Terran tourist, K = Klingon merchant):
K nuqneH [What do you want?]
T 'IH jaj qar'a'? maja'chuqjaj [Beautiful day, isn't it? Can we talk?]
K jISaHbe' [I don't care.]
T bISaHbe'? qatlh bIjatlh [You don't care?! Why do you say that?] chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH [Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.]
K tugh! SSS... bIje'be'chugh vaj bIHegh [Hurry up! Buy or die!]
quvwIj DatIchpu', tera'ngan [You have insulted my honor, Terran.]
bIyIntaH 'e' Daqotlhbe' [You don't deserve to live (“keep living”).]
<sound of disruptor fire>
T yIjotchoH [Calm down!]
<sound of more disruptor fire>
T Dochvetlh yItlhap [Take that!]
<sound of phaser fire followed by more disruptor fire>
<Terran screams as he’s hit by disruptor blast>
All of which shows that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Especially on Kronos.
Voragh
From: Lawrence M. Schoen Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:43 PM
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 1:28 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/22/2016 1:19 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH
[Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.] PK
Maybe the difference is insignificant, but I believe that in the
strict sense of the rules, the {chaq} should be placed before the
{vIneH}.
Yep. Consider also reH DIvI Duj vISuv vIneH I've always wanted to fight a Federation ship (ST5).
My best guess is that the placement of adverbials is different for neH than for 'e'.
To me, the translation given in PK is ambiguous, which is why I think there's a different question here that needs to be considered. Specifically, is {chaq} modifying the verb {je'} or the verb {neH}.
In my mind there's no question. The equivocation provided by {chaq} is all about the buying and not about whether you want it or not.
A clearer translation than that found in PK might be:
[I'd like to maybe buy something from you.]
And of course, as we know Klingon doesn't bother with those useful tools of sentence separation like commas, periods, and semi-colons. That said, I suspect we can all agree that the final {vIneH} is its own sentence.
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participants (4)
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Lawrence M. Schoen -
mayqel qunenoS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel