The verb {po'} is given as "be expert, skilled". The problem though is, that while "to be skilled", is one thing, "to be expert" is quite another. Now, I can understand the crap we usually say, that "context will clarify", but there are times when context *can't* clarify, or in order for it to do so, the main story will need to be disrupted losing its' intended focus. What is a {Qel po'} ? An expert i.e. a specialist ? Or someone "skilled", who can be just a med-school graduate with many years of experience, but nowhere near the level of a specialist ? And now I know.. Someone is itching to write nonsense like "explain which of the two cases you mean, in the text".. So, in a loong passage, one will take a pause from the main story, to explain which of the two meanings of {po'} he means.. Then, one paragraph later, he will take another pause from the main story, to clarify the next similar-to-po' word. And perhaps, two paragraphs later, the same will happen again.. I don't think this is the optimal way to write, or (to be more accurate) to be forced to write. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On 3/23/2020 2:25 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
The verb {po'} is given as "be expert, skilled".
The problem though is, that while "to be skilled", is one thing, "to be expert" is quite another.
Now, I can understand the crap we usually say, that "context will clarify", but there are times when context *can't* clarify, or in order for it to do so, the main story will need to be disrupted losing its' intended focus.
It doesn't mean /be skilled or be expert, depending on context./ It means what the combination of /be skilled/ and /be expert/ means. It means the subject has enough training or ability to be really good at something.
What is a {Qel po'} ? An expert i.e. a specialist ? Or someone "skilled", who can be just a med-school graduate with many years of experience, but nowhere near the level of a specialist ?
A *Qel po'* is a doctor who has enough training or ability to be a really good doctor. When a Klingon word is defined with more than one English term, it doesn't mean the word means either one or the other. The Klingon word has one meaning, possibly with multiple senses, and it has that meaning without any connection to how many definitions it's given in English. In other words, Klingons don't think of the word *po'* as having two meanings. It has just one meaning to them. It means *po'.* We just don't have a single English word that means exactly what *po'* means, so we're given a couple to try to give us a good understanding of what *po'* actually means. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 23.03.2020 um 19:50 schrieb SuStel:
means what the combination of /be skilled/ and /be expert/ means. It means the subject has enough training or ability to be really good at something.
In case of doubt, always look back to how a word was used. In ST5 Kirk escaped Captain Klaa, who then says {po'qu'}, meaning something along like "He's good." (I think that were the subtitles) This is a good example to show the difference to {QaQ} "be good". {QaQ} shows the quality of something (like a good wine), and {po'} is used in this situation to show that Kirk really has a lot of experience (hence the definition "be expert") and he is a very skilled captain. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
SuStel:
In other words, Klingons don't think of the > word po' as having two meanings. It has > just one meaning to them. It means po'. We just don't have a single English word that means exactly what po' means, so we're given a couple to try to give us a good understanding of what po' actually means.
This is an interesting opinion. And if things do work that way, then many things need to change, with regards to how someone (and by "someone" I mean me..) understands the known klingon vocabulary. If things work that way, then {ghargh} isn't a serpent, and it isn't a worm either.. It's something resembling both, with the words "serpent/worm" being just the closest equivalent to the "real" {ghargh}. Similarly {DuH} isn't a "possibility" nor an "option"; it's rather the sum/combined meaning of both these english words. I like this approach, and your argument convinces me. lieven:
This is a good example to show the difference to {QaQ} "be good". {QaQ} shows the quality of something (like a good wine), and {po'} is used in this situation to show that Kirk really has > a lot of experience (hence the definition "be expert") and he is a very skilled captain.
I hadn't noticed this difference. Good to know. Thanks. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
Primarily, the idea of the glosses in the vocabulary list is to point you toward a meaning to a word that might not have an exact equivalent in English (or any other human language). There is no human word for {ghargh} because it’s a fictional species that doesn’t exist on Earth. It looks kind of like a serpent or a worm, so we call it a “serpent worm” in English, but that’s just something those writing in the Star Trek Universe came up with to describe a species no human is really familiar with. {ghargh} internal anatomy might very well be different enough that human biologists might not classify it as either a serpent nor a worm. If you don’t have an exact word to give for a definition, you give whatever words you need to point someone toward the meaning. Many English words have multiple meanings, and the Klingon word might not have all those same meanings, so sometimes having multiple words in the definition are intended to restrict the meaning to something common to both words. Consider {voD}. The definition is “drill, bore”. That doesn’t mean that if someone gives a boring speech, this would be the word to use to describe what this person does to you. Both words are given because the meaning for bore which aligns with the meaning of the verb “drill” is what {voD} means. Meanwhile, it might be an activity done with an energy weapon and not a spinning, spiral-bladed, steel shaft, so it might actually not be what we think of when we say “drill” or “bore”, but it does make a cylindrical hole, like a drill does when we bore through something with it. So, if a Klingon saw a human using a drill to grind a hole into a piece of metal, he’d probably use the verb {voD}, even though we’re doing it with what he’d consider to be a primitive tool unlike the thing one usually uses to {voD}. That’s the problem with translating dictionaries. Even among human language dictionaries, translating at the word level is always imperfect because people didn’t start with one language and change the words to make a different language. Each language evolves from often quite separate histories. charghwI’ ‘utlh
On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:44 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel:
In other words, Klingons don't think of the > word po' as having two meanings. It has > just one meaning to them. It means po'. We just don't have a single English word that means exactly what po' means, so we're given a couple to try to give us a good understanding of what po' actually means.
This is an interesting opinion. And if things do work that way, then many things need to change, with regards to how someone (and by "someone" I mean me..) understands the known klingon vocabulary.
If things work that way, then {ghargh} isn't a serpent, and it isn't a worm either.. It's something resembling both, with the words "serpent/worm" being just the closest equivalent to the "real" {ghargh}.
Similarly {DuH} isn't a "possibility" nor an "option"; it's rather the sum/combined meaning of both these english words.
I like this approach, and your argument convinces me.
lieven:
This is a good example to show the difference to {QaQ} "be good". {QaQ} shows the quality of something (like a good wine), and {po'} is used in this situation to show that Kirk really has > a lot of experience (hence the definition "be expert") and he is a very skilled captain.
I hadn't noticed this difference. Good to know. Thanks.
~ mayqel qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI':
Meanwhile, it might be an activity done with an energy weapon and not a spinning, spiral-bladed, steel shaft
Believe it or not, I was *certain* that {voD} was something that was done, with the classic spiral-bladed steel shaft.. But as soon as I read your comment, I understood that indeed, it can be done with any other kind of device too. This thread reminds of something that was said in another thread; that a {qovIj} is a {qovIj} and a {ngavyaw'} is a {ngavyaw'}, and none of them is a dog. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
Am 25.03.2020 um 14:24 schrieb Will Martin:
Primarily, the idea of the glosses in the vocabulary list is to point you toward a meaning to a word that might not have an exact equivalent in English
In addition to that, we have noticed that there is no regular pattern in the usage of brackets and additional words. Sometimes, an addition can make the use of a word clear, but without limiting it to that specific term. For instance, "grammatical term" was added to "rover" because that's how it was used in the book. Nevertheless, a {lengwI'} surely also is a "traveler".
so we call it a “serpent worm” in English,
THAT was a lookup error by some TNG-authors :-) The definition clearly has the comma, and the comma-less version was retconned in the addendum of TKD.
Consider {voD}. [...]
One other nice example I remember of my first qep'a' was the usage of {ghaj}, where a native English speaker asked a native German speaker in a restaurant {nuq Daghaj?}. The German Klingonist was confused, because he literally understood "What do you possess?", while the English speaker was thinking of the English way where "have" can be used meaning "eat": "I'll have a Pizza". That's why {ghaj} is defined as "have, possess". It's ONE meaning, defined by two words. And this is an important point when learning languages, any language. You cannot always see one word by itself, it's the idea that is important. (I can report from experience, roughly speaking nine languages)
That’s the problem with translating dictionaries.
Oh, yes, definitely. While I had the honorable mission of correcting the German TKD, I stumbled over so many words of which I really had no idea of how to translate them, just because the English definition was ambiguous. As a sidenote, two years ago, somebody asked for a Klingon word for "be stuck". Maltz provided us with five different words, all translated as "be stuck" plus some explanation. Translating this for the Klingon Wiki, I noticed that in German, there is no general term for all these five. Each one has its own word, and although the English form is "be x", the German version is not always an adjective. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Stuck
On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 16:28, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
One other nice example I remember of my first qep'a' was the usage of {ghaj}, where a native English speaker asked a native German speaker in a restaurant {nuq Daghaj?}. The German Klingonist was confused, because he literally understood "What do you possess?", while the English speaker was thinking of the English way where "have" can be used meaning "eat": "I'll have a Pizza".
chab DaSopchugh vaj chab DaghajlaHtaHbe'.
That's why {ghaj} is defined as "have, possess". It's ONE meaning, defined by two words.
And this is an important point when learning languages, any language. You cannot always see one word by itself, it's the idea that is important. (I can report from experience, roughly speaking nine languages)
English is particularly bad for overloading the same verb with too many meanings. If you look up "do" or "run" in a good dictionary you'll get a page or more of definitions and examples. In Klingon, {qet} "run, jog" is the kind of running you do with your legs, not trying to get elected into a political office or filling a bath with water. -- De'vID
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin