It just came to me.. Are arabic numerals (i.e. 1,2,3..) canon ? Would klingons use them in their sentences ? Do they appear in sentences written by 'oqranD ? qunnoq
I don't have an authoritative answer to this, but I'd assume they're only "canon" insofar as they are part of the official Latin alphabet transcription system for Klingon. Klingons themselves probably don't use them (unless they were imported with base-10 numbers). Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 11, 2017, at 11:04, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
It just came to me..
Are arabic numerals (i.e. 1,2,3..) canon ? Would klingons use them in their sentences ? Do they appear in sentences written by 'oqranD ?
qunnoq _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:04 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Are arabic numerals (i.e. 1,2,3..) canon ? Would klingons use them in their sentences ? Do they appear in sentences written by 'oqranD ?
Not a direct answer - but 1,2,3 are just Symbols for {wa', cha', wej} and so on. Since we do not know how Klingons write, only how they speak, this question is not a real question. {wa' yIHoH} is identical to {1 yIHoH}. We have some canon examples which use numbers, but of course, they were are written out, because they were made for the actors. They would not know how to read {5000 qelIqam}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Numbers
hmm.. I see.. So, let me rephrase the question: Are there sentences written by 'oqranD, which sentences weren't written for actors, and which sentences utilize arabic numerals ? qunnoq On 11 Aug 2017 11:12 am, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:04 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Are arabic numerals (i.e. 1,2,3..) canon ? Would klingons use them in their sentences ? Do they appear in sentences written by 'oqranD ?
Not a direct answer - but 1,2,3 are just Symbols for {wa', cha', wej} and so on. Since we do not know how Klingons write, only how they speak, this question is not a real question.
{wa' yIHoH} is identical to {1 yIHoH}.
We have some canon examples which use numbers, but of course, they were are written out, because they were made for the actors. They would not know how to read {5000 qelIqam}.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Numbers _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
hmm.. I see.. So, let me rephrase the question:
Are there sentences written by 'oqranD, which sentences weren't written for actors, and which sentences utilize arabic numerals ?
I don't remember any phrase using arabic letters, I'll leave that to the canon experts. But again: All the Klingon we know is only a transcrption of a SPOKEN language. Alle the Klingon was basically written for actors, or for anyone who wants to speak it. There is no rule or proof for using numbers or not use them. using numbers would just be a lazy way to abbreviate numbers. You cannot speak "1", do you? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
lieven:
You cannot speak "1", do you?
I see your point. Indeed you are right; even if you see the arabic numeral in a klingon sentence, when you will actually speak it, you will say it in klingon. However, I anxiously await for our honorable Ca'non master to decloak his bird of prey, and shed some light on the matter. And the question we need him to answer is "are there canon sentences, which were not written for actors, utilizing roman numerals ?". qunnoq On 11 Aug 2017 11:24 am, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
hmm.. I see.. So, let me rephrase the question:
Are there sentences written by 'oqranD, which sentences weren't written for actors, and which sentences utilize arabic numerals ?
I don't remember any phrase using arabic letters, I'll leave that to the canon experts.
But again: All the Klingon we know is only a transcrption of a SPOKEN language. Alle the Klingon was basically written for actors, or for anyone who wants to speak it. There is no rule or proof for using numbers or not use them. using numbers would just be a lazy way to abbreviate numbers.
You cannot speak "1", do you?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
ghunchu'wI':
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are spelled out in Klingon.
When you say "spelled out in klingon", you mean that they are written in pIqaD ? qunnoq On 11 Aug 2017 5:11 pm, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:34 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
However, I anxiously await for our honorable Ca'non master to decloak
his bird of prey,...
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are spelled out in Klingon.
-- ghunchu'wI'
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Aug 11, 2017 16:15, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote: ghunchu'wI':
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are spelled out in Klingon.
When you say "spelled out in klingon", you mean that they are written in pIqaD ? He means it says {cha' vI' vagh} (in Latin script) where it says "2.5" in the English translation. -- De'vID
From the Bird of Prey poster: wejvatlh loSmaH loS vI' vagh wej 'uj 'aD Duj Length: 120 M loSmaH jav vI' Soch loS 'uj 'ab meH Bridge Height: 16.28 M HIvtaHvIS toQDuj cha'vatlh wejmaH Soch vI' vagh chorgh 'uj 'ab 'oH Attack Formation Height: 82.75 M qughtaHvIS toQDuj HutmaH vI' jav wa' 'uj 'ab 'oH Cruise Formation Height: 31.56 M SaqtaHvIS toQDuj wa'vatlh loS vI' jav chorgh 'uj 'ab 'oH Landing Formation Height: 36.46 M cha' vI' vagh choQmey lutoghlu' Number of Decks: 2.5 cha' choQmey naQ tu'lu' 'ej tep choQ bIngDaq lo' law' bID choQ tu'lu') 2 Full Decks and a Half Utility Deck under the Cargo Deck) wejvatlh SochmaH vagh SaD cheb'a'mey ngI' Duj Mass: 8.7 KT Hong boq chuyDaH: loS Impulse Fusion Thrusters - 4 muDDaq 'eDSeHcha lulaQlu'bogh: jav Atmospheric Take-Off/Landing Thrusters - 6 pIvchem lIngwI' DaHmey: cha' Warp Field Generation Arrays - 2 pIvchem SeHwI': cha' Warp Field Controller - 2 qughDo motlh: pIvlob vagh Normal Cruising Speed - Warp 5 Okrand gives all the {tlhIngan Hol} in full words so that people know how to SAY the numbers and phrases. E.g. How do you say “2.5”? Answer: {cha’ vI’ vagh} using {vI’} “decimal point” not {DoD} “mark (in coordinates). He’s never said that a technically advanced, space-faring civilization doesn’t have numerals. In fact he’s used numerals in the Monopoly game: voHDajbo' wellu' 200 [140, etc.] Mortgaged for 200. ngIq raQ – 200 QaS, mon – 200 QaS loS raQmey je Outposts cost 200 each; capitals, 200 each plus 4 outposts ngIq raQ - 150 QaS "outposts cost 150 each" ngIq raQvaD cha'maH vagh QaS yInob. "For each outpost pay 25 forces." ngIq gholvo' wa'maH QaS yItlhap. "Collect 10 forces from every player." … and in his HolQeD 9.3 [Sept. 2000] article on simple arithmetic: 4 + 3 = 7 wej boq loS; chen Soch "four allies with three; seven forms". 2 + 1 = 3 wa' boq cha'; chen wej "two allies with one, three forms." 4 - 3 = 1 loS boqHa' wej; chen wa' "three dissociates from four, one forms" 2 x 3 = 6 cha'logh boq'egh wej; chen jav "twice, three allies with itself, six forms" 3 x 2 wejlogh boq'egh cha' "three times, two allies with itself" 6/3 = 2 wejlogh boqHa''egh jav; chen cha' "three times, six dissociates from itself, two forms" --Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of mayqel qunenoS ghunchu'wI':
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are spelled out in Klingon.
When you say "spelled out in klingon", you mean that they are written in pIqaD ? qunnoq On 11 Aug 2017 5:11 pm, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net<mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net>> wrote: On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:34 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
However, I anxiously await for our honorable Ca'non master to decloak his bird of prey,...
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are spelled out in Klingon. -- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________
My guess is that he writes the numerals out (except in Monopoly) for the same reason people tend to prefer transliterating proper names to Klingon instead of just leaving them in *DIvI' Hol* -- it looks more Klingon. This conversation also reminds me of something very silly I thought of a few years ago. Since numbers and letters have names that sound like other words and syllables, you could use them for slang Klingon Internet abbreviations: *3! HI4!* *"Don't do it yet! Wait for me!"* *Sa'9vo' ruqpu' 'Iv?* *"Who farted?"* *gh'2!* *"Dammit!"* *uawIjDaq pa' 'oHtaH* "It's over there in my bureau." *vIpbe'** "I don't regret it."* *95! **"There's too many people here!"* *ch' j'?! **"What the hell is going on?!"* *mIv1wIj Daleghpu'''a'? **"Have you seen my scar?"* (The original spellings R left as an exercise 2 the reader.) I assume Klingon teenagers did this all the time as soon as text message technology was invented on Qo'noS. On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
From the Bird of Prey poster:
wejvatlh loSmaH loS vI' vagh wej 'uj 'aD Duj
Length: 120 M
loSmaH jav vI' Soch loS 'uj 'ab meH
Bridge Height: 16.28 M
HIvtaHvIS toQDuj cha'vatlh wejmaH Soch vI' vagh chorgh 'uj 'ab 'oH
Attack Formation Height: 82.75 M
qughtaHvIS toQDuj HutmaH vI' jav wa' 'uj 'ab 'oH
Cruise Formation Height: 31.56 M
SaqtaHvIS toQDuj wa'vatlh loS vI' jav chorgh 'uj 'ab 'oH
Landing Formation Height: 36.46 M
cha' vI' vagh choQmey lutoghlu'
Number of Decks: 2.5
cha' choQmey naQ tu'lu' 'ej tep choQ bIngDaq lo' law' bID choQ tu'lu')
2 Full Decks and a Half Utility Deck under the Cargo Deck)
wejvatlh SochmaH vagh SaD cheb'a'mey ngI' Duj
Mass: 8.7 KT
Hong boq chuyDaH: loS
Impulse Fusion Thrusters - 4
muDDaq 'eDSeHcha lulaQlu'bogh: jav
Atmospheric Take-Off/Landing Thrusters - 6
pIvchem lIngwI' DaHmey: cha'
Warp Field Generation Arrays - 2
pIvchem SeHwI': cha'
Warp Field Controller - 2
qughDo motlh: pIvlob vagh
Normal Cruising Speed - Warp 5
Okrand gives all the {tlhIngan Hol} in full words so that people know how to SAY the numbers and phrases. E.g. How do you say “2.5”? Answer: {cha’ vI’ vagh} using {vI’} “decimal point” not {DoD} “mark (in coordinates). He’s never said that a technically advanced, space-faring civilization doesn’t have numerals. In fact he’s used numerals in the Monopoly game:
voHDajbo' wellu' 200 [140, etc.]
Mortgaged for 200.
ngIq raQ – 200 QaS, mon – 200 QaS loS raQmey je
Outposts cost 200 each; capitals, 200 each plus 4 outposts
ngIq raQ - 150 QaS
"outposts cost 150 each"
ngIq raQvaD cha'maH vagh QaS yInob.
"For each outpost pay 25 forces."
ngIq gholvo' wa'maH QaS yItlhap.
"Collect 10 forces from every player."
… and in his HolQeD 9.3 [Sept. 2000] article on simple arithmetic:
4 + 3 = 7 wej boq loS; chen Soch "four allies with three; seven forms".
2 + 1 = 3 wa' boq cha'; chen wej "two allies with one, three forms."
4 - 3 = 1
loS boqHa' wej; chen wa' "three dissociates from four, one forms"
2 x 3 = 6 cha'logh boq'egh wej; chen jav "twice, three allies with itself, six forms"
3 x 2 wejlogh boq'egh cha' "three times, two allies with itself"
6/3 = 2 wejlogh boqHa''egh jav; chen cha' "three times, six dissociates from itself, two forms"
--Voragh
*From:* tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] *On Behalf Of *mayqel qunenoS
ghunchu'wI':
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are
spelled out in Klingon.
When you say "spelled out in klingon", you mean that they are written in pIqaD ?
qunnoq
On 11 Aug 2017 5:11 pm, "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:34 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
However, I anxiously await for our honorable Ca'non master to decloak
his bird of prey,...
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are spelled out in Klingon.
-- ghunchu'wI'
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:15 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
ghunchu'wI':
The Bird of Prey poster is rife with numbers. All of them are spelled out in Klingon.
When you say "spelled out in klingon", you mean that they are written in pIqaD ?
No, i mean they are spelled out using words instead of numerals. For example: loSmaH jav vI' Soch loS 'uj 'ab meH instead of 16.74, which is how the numbers on the poster are written in the English sentences. -- ghunchu'wI'
Cleaning up my mailbox, I found this old post from qunnoq. Yes, we have seen Okrand translate things expressed with Roman numbers in “Federation Standard” – planet names: nImbuS wej Nimbus III (GN) tlh'a' HoD, nImbuS wej yIghoS. Captain Klaa, proceed to Nimbus III. (ST5 notes) nImbuS wej maghoS, He yInab Plot course for Nimbus III. ST5 nImbuS wejDaq 'ejDo' 'entepray' ngeHlu'pu' The starship Enterprise has been dispatched to Nimbus III. ST5 pentatlh wej Penteth III (in Cardassian Union) MKE pIvghor yIchu' 'ej pentatlh wej yIjaH Warp to Pentath III. MKE chaltoq loS Chaltok IV (in Romulan Star Empire) MKE la'pa' loS Lappa IV (in Ferengi Alliance) MKE vanDIroS loS Vandros IV (in Gamma Quadrant) MKE Do’natu vagh Donatu V (qep’a’ 2017) … and royal names: (KGT 126): In Shakespeare's original Klingon version of HenrI' vagh, known in Federation Standard as Henry V, HenrI', the Supreme Commander, gets into an argument with one of his troops the night before a great battle. The point here is that royal names are read out using the cardinal number (just like planet names), not the ordinal with –DIch as in, say, English king Henry the Eighth. --Voragh From: mayqel qunenoS However, I anxiously await for our honorable Ca'non master to decloak his bird of prey, and shed some light on the matter. And the question we need him to answer is "are there canon sentences, which were not written for actors, utilizing roman numerals ?". On 11 Aug 2017 11:24 am, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: Am 11.08.2017 um 10:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: Are there sentences written by 'oqranD, which sentences weren't written for actors, and which sentences utilize arabic numerals ? I don't remember any phrase using arabic letters, I'll leave that to the canon experts. But again: All the Klingon we know is only a transcrption of a SPOKEN language. Alle the Klingon was basically written for actors, or for anyone who wants to speak it. There is no rule or proof for using numbers or not use them. using numbers would just be a lazy way to abbreviate numbers. You cannot speak "1", do you? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI
On 9/26/2017 3:15 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
*Do’natu vagh *Donatu V (qep’a’ 2017)
… and royal names:
(KGT 126): In Shakespeare's original Klingon version of *HenrI' vagh*, known in Federation Standard as /Henry V/, *HenrI'*, the Supreme Commander, gets into an argument with one of his troops the night before a great battle.
The point here is that royal names are read out using the cardinal number (just like planet names), not the ordinal with –*DIch* as in, say, English king /Henry the Eighth. /
For slightly different reasons. *Do'natu vagh* is not /Donatu Number Five;/ the *vagh* /five/ is just a label that happens to follow a numeric sequence. *HenrI' vagh,* however, actually is the Henry Number Five. I wonder how Klingons would translate the names /Ingraham B//and/ /Theta Cygni XII/? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel: << I wonder how Klingons would translate the names Ingraham B and Theta Cygni XII? SuStel's post reminded me about the "Prime" planet names from Klingon Monopoly: qarDaS wa' Cardassia Prime (i.e. the Cardassian homeworld) qu'rIl wa' Kurill Prime (in Gamma Quadrant) QI'yoS wa' Krios Prime (a Klingon colony planet ) yaDe'ra' wa' Yadera Prime (Dominion planet in Gamma Quadrant) I've previously used ordinal numbers for the Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta Quadrants (jogh wa'DIch, jogh cha'DIch, etc.), but now I would use cardinal numerals: jogh wa', jogh cha', etc. No doubt Klingons have their own names for these but in the meantime what about Alpha 177, Memory Alpha , Alpha Cygni, Alpha Carinae II , Alpha Centauri, Beta XII-A, Beta Stromgren, Gamma II, Gamma Hydra IV, the Gamma Canaris region, Delta-Vega, the Delta Expanse, Epsilon Canaris III, etc., etc.? --Voragh -----Original Message----- From: Voragh Yes, we have seen Okrand translate things expressed with Roman numbers in “Federation Standard” – planet names: nImbuS wej Nimbus III (GN) tlh'a' HoD, nImbuS wej yIghoS. Captain Klaa, proceed to Nimbus III. (ST5 notes) nImbuS wej maghoS, He yInab Plot course for Nimbus III. ST5 nImbuS wejDaq 'ejDo' 'entepray' ngeHlu'pu' The starship Enterprise has been dispatched to Nimbus III. ST5 pentatlh wej Penteth III (in Cardassian Union) MKE pIvghor yIchu' 'ej pentatlh wej yIjaH Warp to Pentath III. MKE chaltoq loS Chaltok IV (in Romulan Star Empire) MKE la'pa' loS Lappa IV (in Ferengi Alliance) MKE vanDIroS loS Vandros IV (in Gamma Quadrant) MKE Do’natu vagh Donatu V (qep’a’ 2017) … and royal names: (KGT 126): In Shakespeare's original Klingon version of HenrI' vagh, known in Federation Standard as Henry V, HenrI', the Supreme Commander, gets into an argument with one of his troops the night before a great battle. The point here is that royal names are read out using the cardinal number (just like planet names), not the ordinal with –DIch as in, say, English king Henry the Eighth. --Voragh From: mayqel qunenoS However, I anxiously await for our honorable Ca'non master to decloak his bird of prey, and shed some light on the matter. And the question we need him to answer is "are there canon sentences, which were not written for actors, utilizing roman numerals ?". On 11 Aug 2017 11:24 am, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de <mailto:levinius@gmx.de> > wrote: Am 11.08.2017 um 10:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: Are there sentences written by 'oqranD, which sentences weren't written for actors, and which sentences utilize arabic numerals ?
Usually, "Alpha" in star names refers to the brightest star in that constellation, so Alpha Centauri is the brightest star in the constellation of Centaur, Beta Centauri would be the second-brightest and so on. I think we have no clue how Klingons would call these, especially since Klingons would have completely different constellations (as we know already), and from their homeworld stars would form different patterns anyway, and other stars might be brighter than our Alpha stars anyway. The Roman numbers behind star names then refer to the position of the planet relative to the other planets in the same system. Earth could be called "Sol III", as it's the third planet. If the Klingons call our sun {Sol}, Earth might have been called {Sol wej} prior to contact with the Federation (but then they wouldn't have called our sun {Sol} either, of course). I had always thought that Prime refers to either the biggest planet in the system (e.g. Jupiter in our case), or perhaps to the only planet for those stars who only have one planet. In that case {wa'} is of course also suitable, and even more logical. Does anyone know what "Prime" means, in Star Trek? - André 2017-09-27 21:03 GMT+02:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
On 9/27/2017 2:54 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Beta XII-A
ghuy'cha'!
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I know the etymology of the word, that is why I added "in Star Trek". "Prime" doesn't necessarily refer to the first item, it could refer to the biggest or most important one. The main planet, so to speak. According to Memory Alpha, Cardassia Prime is the second planet in the system. So I would not translate Prime with {wa'} here. If we don't know the number of a Prime planet, perhaps {yuQ'a'} could be a solution? - André 2017-09-27 21:26 GMT+02:00 Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com>:
From Latin adjective "primus" = "first".
----Original message---- From : esperantist@gmail.com Date : 27/09/2017 - 20:15 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Are arabic numerals canon ?
... Does anyone know what "Prime" means, in Star Trek?
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 27.09.2017 um 21:40 schrieb André Müller:
According to Memory Alpha, Cardassia Prime is the second planet in the system. So I would not translate Prime with {wa'} here. If we don't know the number of a Prime planet, perhaps {yuQ'a'} could be a solution?
No, Klingons say {juHqo'}. I tend to believe that Star Trek authors never thought about this as much as we do. I agree with the theory of importance. Do you remember the show/episode when humans found a planet, and called it "Earth Two"? So sometimes "prime" just refers to the most important planet of a system, or even an entire civilization, without regarding size, brightness or position. So if Terrans would ever find a second planet, their first planet remians "Terra prime". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
The press release by Netflix announcing the Klingon subtitles for DSC, was published entirely in Klingon. It contained one new word: {'ot} Here's the full defintion by Okrand: A verb to use for what Maltz does when he tells us new words is {'otHa'} "disclose, divulge." ({'ot} means "withhold (information)".) Here's the entire text: https://www.schroederschoembs.com/pressemitteilung/netflix-trailer-star-trek... -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Netflix
On 9/27/2017 4:07 PM, Lieven wrote:
The press release by Netflix announcing the Klingon subtitles for DSC, was published entirely in Klingon. It contained one new word: {'ot}
Here's the full defintion by Okrand: A verb to use for what Maltz does when he tells us new words is {'otHa'} "disclose, divulge." ({'ot} means "withhold (information)".)
Here's the entire text: https://www.schroederschoembs.com/pressemitteilung/netflix-trailer-star-trek...
'entepray' Qaw'chugh vIy'jer, Hoch De' poQbogh vIy'jer Qaw' je. De' poQlu'bogh Da'otchugh QapHa' meqlIj. qIrq ngIq... qIrq ngIq, qatlh De' Da'ot? yuQ wejDIch Dabbogh Hoch ghav ngIqpu''e' Qaw'mo' vIy'jer. chenmoHwI' lubotpu'. De' 'otlu'. De' poQqu' vIy'jer. vaj Hoch bavtaHbogh janmey teqnIS vIy'jer. HeQ vIy'jer... De' lu'otHa'chugh ghav ngIqpu'. ***** Yeah, yeah, deal with the *ngIq.* I think it works. Anyone got anything better for /repress?/ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Is this klingon text written by 'oqranD ? Because if it is, I noticed that at the last paragraph (the last two sentences) there is {NetflixDaq}. If this was written by 'oqranD, then it means that we can use the {-Daq} not only with regards to physical places, but on virtual ones as well. other that that.. Who or what is {vIy'jer} ? I can't find anywhere such a word. qunnoq On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 11:33 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/27/2017 4:07 PM, Lieven wrote:
The press release by Netflix announcing the Klingon subtitles for DSC, was published entirely in Klingon. It contained one new word: {'ot}
Here's the full defintion by Okrand: A verb to use for what Maltz does when he tells us new words is {'otHa'} "disclose, divulge." ({'ot} means "withhold (information)".)
Here's the entire text: https://www.schroederschoembs.com/pressemitteilung/netflix-trailer-star-trek...
'entepray' Qaw'chugh vIy'jer, Hoch De' poQbogh vIy'jer Qaw' je.
De' poQlu'bogh Da'otchugh QapHa' meqlIj. qIrq ngIq... qIrq ngIq, qatlh De' Da'ot?
yuQ wejDIch Dabbogh Hoch ghav ngIqpu''e' Qaw'mo' vIy'jer.
chenmoHwI' lubotpu'.
De' 'otlu'.
De' poQqu' vIy'jer.
vaj Hoch bavtaHbogh janmey teqnIS vIy'jer.
HeQ vIy'jer... De' lu'otHa'chugh ghav ngIqpu'.
*****
Yeah, yeah, deal with the ngIq. I think it works.
Anyone got anything better for repress?
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
SEE ALSO: pegh keep something secret, be secret, classified (v) peghHa'moH cause to not keep a secret (v) magh indicate, reveal (v) So' encrypt (v) (qepHom 2014) meS encrypt (v) (slang) (qepHom 2014) So'Ha' decrypt with permission (v) (qepHom 2014) baghHa' decrypt without permission (v) (qepHom 2014) USEFUL PROVERBS: not mev peghmey Secrets never cease. PK (secrecy proverb) De' lI' Sovlu'DI' chaq Do'Ha' Knowledge of useful information may be unfortunate. PK --Voragh ---------------Original Message--------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of Lieven The press release by Netflix announcing the Klingon subtitles for DSC, was published entirely in Klingon. It contained one new word: {'ot} Here's the full definition by Okrand: A verb to use for what Maltz does when he tells us new words is {'otHa'} "disclose, divulge." ({'ot} means "withhold (information)".) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 05:06:45PM +0000, Steven Boozer wrote:
SEE ALSO: pegh keep something secret, be secret, classified (v)
Wait, does this mean that {pegh} is ambitransitive? Klingon seems to have very few verbs of that type, so I figure it would be worth explicitly checking. - SapIr
I think ambitransitive isn't the right word here. Ambitransitive verbs can be intransitive or transitive, like {Soj vISop} vs. {jISop}. This one reminds me more of Chinese and Thai in which some verbs are their own causative verb. But I cannot remember the correct term for this type of verb... - André 2017-09-28 19:21 GMT+02:00 kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net>:
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 05:06:45PM +0000, Steven Boozer wrote:
SEE ALSO: pegh keep something secret, be secret, classified (v)
Wait, does this mean that {pegh} is ambitransitive? Klingon seems to have very few verbs of that type, so I figure it would be worth explicitly checking.
- SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
ok, wait.. the {lut mIr} is canon for "series" ? qunnoq On Sep 28, 2017 20:27, "André Müller" <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
I think ambitransitive isn't the right word here. Ambitransitive verbs can be intransitive or transitive, like {Soj vISop} vs. {jISop}. This one reminds me more of Chinese and Thai in which some verbs are their own causative verb. But I cannot remember the correct term for this type of verb...
- André
2017-09-28 19:21 GMT+02:00 kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net>:
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 05:06:45PM +0000, Steven Boozer wrote:
SEE ALSO: pegh keep something secret, be secret, classified (v)
Wait, does this mean that {pegh} is ambitransitive? Klingon seems to have very few verbs of that type, so I figure it would be worth explicitly checking.
- SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 28.09.2017 um 19:27 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
ok, wait..
the {lut mIr} is canon for "series" ?
It's not in the message you quoted, but that's correct. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Netflix
On 9/28/2017 1:26 PM, André Müller wrote:
I think ambitransitive isn't the right word here. Ambitransitive verbs can be intransitive or transitive, like {Soj vISop} vs. {jISop}. This one reminds me more of Chinese and Thai in which some verbs are their own causative verb. But I cannot remember the correct term for this type of verb...
- André
2017-09-28 19:21 GMT+02:00 kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net <mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net>>:
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 05:06:45PM +0000, Steven Boozer wrote: > SEE ALSO: > pegh keep something secret, be secret, classified (v)
Wait, does this mean that {pegh} is ambitransitive? Klingon seems to have very few verbs of that type, so I figure it would be worth explicitly checking.
Whatever the verb is, we've got a few of them in Klingon. *tagh* *taghbej mu'qaDveS */Curse warfare has definitely begun. /(CK) *Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je tIqaw*/ When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Melota. /(TKW) *mev* *not mev peghmey */Secrets never cease. /(PK) *bIjatlh 'e' yImev */Shut up!/ (PK) *meQ* *Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv tera'nganpu' */Terrans enjoy eating burnt animals./ (CK, but notice the missing *lu-* on *tIv*) *to'waQ meQ vutwI' */The cook burns the tendon./ (KGT) And you've noticed *pegh.* There may be others I can't remember right now. There are also a lot of verbs whose transitivity we don't know, like *DIng* /spin /and *chagh*/drop./ And maybe, just maybe, Klingons aren't quite so rigorous with their transitivity as we are. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 01:38:20PM -0400, SuStel wrote:
On 9/28/2017 1:26 PM, André Müller wrote:
I think ambitransitive isn't the right word here. Ambitransitive verbs can be intransitive or transitive, like {Soj vISop} vs. {jISop}. This one reminds me more of Chinese and Thai in which some verbs are their own causative verb. But I cannot remember the correct term for this type of verb...
You're right; I used the wrong terminology. That's definitely what I was thining about though.
- André
2017-09-28 19:21 GMT+02:00 kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net <mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net>>:
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 05:06:45PM +0000, Steven Boozer wrote: > SEE ALSO: > pegh keep something secret, be secret, classified (v)
Wait, does this mean that {pegh} is ambitransitive? Klingon seems to have very few verbs of that type, so I figure it would be worth explicitly checking.
Whatever the verb is, we've got a few of them in Klingon.
*tagh*
*taghbej mu'qaDveS */Curse warfare has definitely begun. /(CK)
*Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je tIqaw*/ When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Melota. /(TKW)
*mev*
*not mev peghmey */Secrets never cease. /(PK)
*bIjatlh 'e' yImev */Shut up!/ (PK)
*meQ*
*Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv tera'nganpu' */Terrans enjoy eating burnt animals./ (CK, but notice the missing *lu-* on *tIv*)
*to'waQ meQ vutwI' */The cook burns the tendon./ (KGT)
And you've noticed *pegh.* There may be others I can't remember right now. There are also a lot of verbs whose transitivity we don't know, like *DIng* /spin /and *chagh*/drop./
And maybe, just maybe, Klingons aren't quite so rigorous with their transitivity as we are.
As languages go, English is actually pretty loose with transitivity, especially with the sorts of verbs that André referred to. There's no reason Klingon couldn't also be that loose, but the presence of an explicit causative marker makes me want it to be stricter, since marking the transitive variants of these sorts of verbs would be so easy. Of course, that doesn't mean that it has to work that way, and it seems that it probably doesn't. - SapIr
On 28 September 2017 at 19:38, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Whatever the verb is, we've got a few of them in Klingon.
*tagh*
*taghbej mu'qaDveS **Curse warfare has definitely begun. *(CK) *Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je tIqaw* * When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Melota. *(TKW)
*mev*
*not mev peghmey **Secrets never cease. *(PK)
*bIjatlh 'e' yImev **Shut up!* (PK)
*meQ*
*Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv tera'nganpu' **Terrans enjoy eating burnt animals.* (CK, but notice the missing *lu-* on *tIv*)
*to'waQ meQ vutwI' **The cook burns the tendon.* (KGT)
And you've noticed *pegh.* There may be others I can't remember right now. There are also a lot of verbs whose transitivity we don't know, like *DIng* *spin *and *chagh** drop.*
Some other verbs of this type (where the presence or absence of an object changes the role of the subject) that I know of are: {Don} v. be parallel, go parallel to {ghom} v. meet, encounter, assemble, rendezvous {So'} v. hide, cloak There are also homophonous pairs like {SaH} (where it likely means "be present" without an object and "to care about" the object when there is one) but I think those cases are really pairs of verbs which happen to sound the same. -- De'vID
On 9/30/2017 6:41 PM, De'vID wrote:
On 28 September 2017 at 19:38, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
Whatever the verb is, we've got a few of them in Klingon.
*tagh*
*taghbej mu'qaDveS */Curse warfare has definitely begun. /(CK)
*Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je tIqaw*/ When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Melota. /(TKW)
*mev*
*not mev peghmey */Secrets never cease. /(PK)
*bIjatlh 'e' yImev */Shut up!/ (PK)
*meQ*
*Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv tera'nganpu' */Terrans enjoy eating burnt animals./ (CK, but notice the missing *lu-* on *tIv*)
*to'waQ meQ vutwI' */The cook burns the tendon./ (KGT)
And you've noticed *pegh.* There may be others I can't remember right now. There are also a lot of verbs whose transitivity we don't know, like *DIng* /spin /and *chagh*/drop./
Some other verbs of this type (where the presence or absence of an object changes the role of the subject) that I know of are:
{Don} v. be parallel, go parallel to {ghom} v. meet, encounter, assemble, rendezvous {So'} v. hide, cloak
And it's no coincidence that the ones that do it in Klingon are also the ones that do it in their English definitions... -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
This can happen in English: the horse grazed in the pasture; I grazed my horse in the pasture. ----Original message----
From : esperantist@gmail.com Date : 28/09/2017 - 18:26 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] What Maltz does: {'otHa'} I think ambitransitive isn't the right word here. Ambitransitive verbs can be intransitive or transitive, like {Soj vISop} vs. {jISop}. This one reminds me more of Chinese and Thai in which some verbs are their own causative verb. But I cannot remember the correct term for this type of verb...
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
The press release by Netflix announcing the Klingon subtitles for DSC,
was published entirely in Klingon. It contained one new word: {'ot}
Here's the full defintion by Okrand: A verb to use for what Maltz does when he tells us new words is {'otHa'}
"disclose, divulge." ({'ot} means "withhold (information)".)
Here's the entire text:
https://www.schroederschoembs.com/pressemitteilung/netflix-trailer-star-trek...
This version of the press release seems to include an extra paragraph: http://www.flipgeeks.com/movies-and-tv/tv/netflix-releases-klingon-trailer-f... Someone on facebook pointed out that it includes the previously unknown word {peS}. ~naHQun -- ~Michael Roney, Jr. Freelance Translator
For those interested, the relevant bit for ‘otHa’ is: jar Hut jaj 25, NetflixDaq tagh muchmey ’otHa’meH mIwvam: Hoch DaSjaj, PT-Daq qaSDI’ pagh rep, NetflixDaq lut chu’ ’otHa’lu’, jaj vorgh ’amerIqa’ SepjIjQa’ CBS-Daq lut ’otHa’lu’DI’. Starting September 25, episodes will premiere on Netflix at 12am PT every Monday, following the US episode broadcast on CBS. … and for peS: tera’Daq ’Internet HaSta muchmey peSwI’’e’ Netflix tIn law’, Hoch tIn puS. 190 SepmeyDaq 104 ’uy’ lo’wI’ lutu’lu’ ’ej qaStaHvIS wa’ jaj HaSta muchmey’e’ 125 ’uy’ rep lutIvlu’. lut mIrmey, ja’bogh muchmey, HaSta muchmey lIngbogh Netflix peS je. Netflix is the world’s leading internet entertainment service with 104 million members in over 190 countries enjoying more than 125 million hours of TV shows and movies per day, including original series, documentaries and feature films. --Voragh From: Michael Roney, Jr. On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote:
The press release by Netflix announcing the Klingon subtitles for DSC, was published entirely in Klingon. It contained one new word: {'ot}
Here's the full defintion by Okrand: A verb to use for what Maltz does when he tells us new words is {'otHa'} "disclose, divulge." ({'ot} means "withhold (information)".)
Here's the entire text: https://www.schroederschoembs.com/pressemitteilung/netflix-trailer-star-trek...
This version of the press release seems to include an extra paragraph: http://www.flipgeeks.com/movies-and-tv/tv/netflix-releases-klingon-trailer-f... Someone on facebook pointed out that it includes the previously unknown word {peS}. ~naHQun -- ~Michael Roney, Jr. Freelance Translator
On 9/27/2017 3:52 PM, Lieven wrote:
Do you remember the show/episode when humans found a planet, and called it "Earth Two"?
You're thinking of the episode "Miri," and the only thing anyone ever calls it is "another Earth." Maybe they called it "Earth Two" in the German dub, but not in English. Novels and fan literature I've seen usually call it "Miri's Planet" and "the Planet of the Onlies." According to Memory Alpha, the final draft script calls it "Earth Two," but it is never named on screen. Obviously, the original inhabitants would have called it "Earth." -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 27.09.2017 um 22:07 schrieb SuStel:
According to Memory Alpha, the final draft script calls it "Earth Two," but it is never named on screen.
Nevertheless, the page in Memory Alpha is named "Earth Two". But actually (I just checked the web) there really exists a TV series called "Earth 2". That's the one I really had in mind. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/MemoryAlpha
On 9/27/2017 3:40 PM, André Müller wrote:
According to Memory Alpha, Cardassia Prime is the second planet in the system. So I would not translate Prime with {wa'} here. If we don't know the number of a Prime planet, perhaps {yuQ'a'} could be a solution?
But Cardassia Prime is canonically *qarDaS wa'.* Assuming that Memory Alpha is correct, that means Klingons either translate /prime/ as *wa'* regardless of position, or else Klingons don't follow the convention, and it is only a convention, of numbering planets in order of distance from their stars. Since we also know that Klingons will translate names based (apparently) on orbit order, and this contradicts the /prime/ naming, I conclude that all the planet names with numbers in them are simply translations of names, whatever the origin of the numbers, and not how Klingon astronomers refer to them. This means there can be confusion between knowing whether a planet is the important one in the system or the closest one to its star. How do you refer to Cardassia I? Oh well. These confusions happen in language. Klingons undoubtedly think Federation Standard is dumb for getting this all mixed up. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:59 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Klingons undoubtedly think Federation Standard is dumb for getting this all mixed up.
Star Trek's planet-naming scheme follows longstanding Science Fiction convention, which arguably evolved organically rather than having been set down with a strict definition. In the real world, the pattern for labeling exoplanets is based on their order of discovery and has nothing to do with the orbital distance from their parent star. This is a relatively recent extension of the International Astronomical Union's rules for multiple-star systems -- back when Star Trek started calling things "Rigel 6" etc., no exoplanets had yet been observed and there was not yet a need for a way to name them. -- ghunchu'wI'
Am 27.09.2017 um 21:59 schrieb SuStel:> But Cardassia Prime is canonically *qarDaS wa'.* Assuming that Memory > Alpha is correct, that means Klingons either translate /prime/ as *wa'* > regardless of position, or else Klingons don't follow the convention, > and it is only a convention, of numbering planets in order of distance > from their stars. Maybe they really do not care, and simply translate the names they hear from their spys? It would only lead to confusion if the Cardassians says "cardas 1" and the Klingon spy names it "cardas 3" or so. It would be like translating "Windows 10" as {Qorwagh Soch} (or so whatever the real counting might be). -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.net http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On 9/27/2017 4:25 PM, Lieven wrote:
It would be like translating "Windows 10" as {Qorwagh Soch} (or so whatever the real counting might be).
/Windows 10/ is a brand name meant to superficially resemble a version number in sequence. Presumably, /Star Trek /scientists have better reasons for naming their stars and planets the ways they do. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, 2017-09-27 at 15:59 -0400, SuStel wrote:
On 9/27/2017 3:40 PM, André Müller wrote:
According to Memory Alpha, Cardassia Prime is the second planet in the system. So I would not translate Prime with {wa'} here. If we don't know the number of a Prime planet, perhaps {yuQ'a'} could be a solution?
But Cardassia Prime is canonically *qarDaS wa'.* Assuming that Memory Alpha is correct, that means Klingons either translate /prime/ as *wa'* regardless of position, or else Klingons don't follow the convention, and it is only a convention, of numbering planets in order of distance from their stars.
Since we also know that Klingons will translate names based (apparently) on orbit order, and this contradicts the /prime/ naming, I conclude that all the planet names with numbers in them are simply translations of names, whatever the origin of the numbers, and not how Klingon astronomers refer to them.
This means there can be confusion between knowing whether a planet is the important one in the system or the closest one to its star. How do you refer to Cardassia I? Oh well. These confusions happen in language. Klingons undoubtedly think Federation Standard is dumb for getting this all mixed up.
Or perhaps something like: qarDaS wa' - Cardassia Prime (The important planet) qarDaS wa'DIch - The first in sequence. (Whatever sequence they are using.) The problem with this is the Klingon capital city uses wa'DIch.
I wonder if there is more than one inhabited planet in the Cardassian system. “Prime” could then refer to the most important planet, the one which was inhabited first (otherwise known as the homeworld), before they moved out into space colonizing other habitable planets in their own star system. Or… maybe this isn’t Federation or Klingon usage, but a (clumsy) attempt to render an alien nomenclature. BTW in Star Trek: Enterprise we learned of Tellar Prime. Now Okrand came up with tellarngan Tellarite for DSC -- revealed at the last qep’a’ -- so I wouldn’t be surprised to hear of *tellar wa’ in an upcoming Discovery episode. --Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of André Müller I know the etymology of the word, that is why I added "in Star Trek". "Prime" doesn't necessarily refer to the first item, it could refer to the biggest or most important one. The main planet, so to speak. According to Memory Alpha, Cardassia Prime is the second planet in the system. So I would not translate Prime with {wa'} here. If we don't know the number of a Prime planet, perhaps {yuQ'a'} could be a solution? - André 2017-09-27 21:26 GMT+02:00 Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com<mailto:a.appleyard@btinternet.com>>: From Latin adjective "primus" = "first". ----Original message---- From : esperantist@gmail.com<mailto:esperantist@gmail.com> ... Does anyone know what "Prime" means, in Star Trek?
participants (14)
-
Alan Anderson -
André Müller -
Anthony Appleyard -
De'vID -
DloraH -
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh
-
kechpaja -
kechpaja＠comcast.net
-
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel