The pronunciation of {Q}
In the tkd it says: "{Q} This is like nothing particularly noteworthy in English. It is an overdone Klingon {q}. It is identical to {q} except that it is very guttural and raspy and strongly articulated, somewhat like a blend of Klingon {q} and {H}". On the other hand, it is my impression that whenever I hear the word {Qo'noS} I actually hear "Kronos"; my problem being that I hear an "r" being spoken, which according the tkd shouldn't be there. Is there something here I am missing ? qunnoq
On 11 July 2017 at 09:40, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
On the other hand, it is my impression that whenever I hear the word {Qo'noS} I actually hear "Kronos"; my problem being that I hear an "r" being spoken, which according the tkd shouldn't be there.
Where do you hear {Qo'noS} being spoken? If it's spoken by actors, it's likely influenced by the English "Kronos". -- De'vID
I can't say for sure. Perhaps it was indeed spoken by actors. I can't remember for sure because it has been an observation made quite some ago. But from your reply, I guess that at the proper pronunciation of {Q} there isn't anywhere the sound of "r", right ? qunnoq On 11 Jul 2017 11:43 am, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 July 2017 at 09:40, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
On the other hand, it is my impression that whenever I hear the word {Qo'noS} I actually hear "Kronos"; my problem being that I hear an "r" being spoken, which according the tkd shouldn't be there.
Where do you hear {Qo'noS} being spoken? If it's spoken by actors, it's likely influenced by the English "Kronos".
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 11 July 2017 at 10:53, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't say for sure. Perhaps it was indeed spoken by actors. I can't remember for sure because it has been an observation made quite some ago.
But from your reply, I guess that at the proper pronunciation of {Q} there isn't anywhere the sound of "r", right ?
You can listen to Marc Okrand pronounce this on the "tapes" (which you may find either on CD, or on a streaming service): Conversational Klingon and Power Klingon. -- De'vID
On 7/11/2017 3:40 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
On the other hand, it is my impression that whenever I hear the word {Qo'noS} I actually hear "Kronos"; my problem being that I hear an "r" being spoken, which according the tkd shouldn't be there.
There is no /r./ *q* is to *Q* as *t* is to *ch.* It's made with more or less the same tongue position, but some air forces itself through briefly, but not continuously. And remember that *q* is not /k./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Jul 11, 2017, at 3:40 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
On the other hand, it is my impression that whenever I hear the word {Qo'noS} I actually hear "Kronos"; my problem being that I hear an "r" being spoken, which according the tkd shouldn't be there.
There isn't any "r" in {Qo'noS}, but an ear unaccustomed to a sound can misinterpret what it hears. At qep'a' vaghDIch, an apparently drunk hotel guest wandered into the meeting room one evening and started asking questions (not all of which were appropriate). He heard Qov's name and tried to repeat it, saying carefully and distinctly "crove". -- ghunchu'wI'
Am 11.07.2017 um 17:21 schrieb ghunchu'wI' 'utlh:
There isn't any "r" in {Qo'noS}, but an ear unaccustomed to a sound can misinterpret what it hears.
Actually, hearing the r in the Q sound is not so far off. Note that most of the English versions on Q-names start with Kr, so it was surely Okrands intention and also a linguistic basis to have those sounds resembling. But indeed, in Klingon, you don't say {qr}. Qaj - Kradge Qel - Krell Qugh - Kruge Qotmagh - Krotmag Qo'noS - Kronos etc. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 10:40:53AM +0300, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
In the tkd it says:
"{Q} This is like nothing particularly noteworthy in English. It is an overdone Klingon {q}. It is identical to {q} except that it is very guttural and raspy and strongly articulated, somewhat like a blend of Klingon {q} and {H}".
On the other hand, it is my impression that whenever I hear the word {Qo'noS} I actually hear "Kronos"; my problem being that I hear an "r" being spoken, which according the tkd shouldn't be there.
Is there something here I am missing ?
The Klingon {Q} is a uvular affricate, represented in the International Phonetic Alphabet as [qχ] (there's usually a tie bar on top as well, but I'm not sure how to type that at the moment). What's likely going on is this: if I remember correctly, your native language is Greek (correct me if I'm wrong on that?), which has a sound similar to [χ] ([x], which confusingly is written as <χ> in the Greek alphabet) and a sound similar to [q] ([k]), but usually doesn't put those two sounds together at the beginning or end of a word the way Klingon does. On the other hand, both in Greek and in English, the cluster /kr/ is very common at the beginning of a word, leading a native speaker of either language to more naturally assume that that's what they are hearing, rather than [qχ]. Add to that the fact that in languages like German (and in the speech of many Germans speaking other languages) the sound written as and etymologically related to /r/ is pronounced as [ʁ], which is the voiced equivalent to [χ] and easy to confuse with it after a voiceless consonant like [q], and it becomes clear why Klingon {Q} sounds a lot like /kr/ to many of our ears. For what it's worth, Swiss German also has the sound represented by {Q}, and I distinctly remember my mother (and myself as well) interpreting it as /kr/ when we first heard it in Swiss place names such as "Wipkingen". - SapIr
Am 11.07.2017 um 20:54 schrieb kechpaja:
The Klingon {Q} is a uvular affricate, represented in the International Phonetic Alphabet as [qχ]
Thanks for this wonderful explanation. I just like to add two things: a) You can easily describe {Q} in Klingon as {q} + {H}. b) When teaching the sound to German students, I usually really say that it's the same as KR, because in most German dialects, this is really very identical to the Q-sound. I usually need to mention that there are regions which do speak "K+R" seperately, so that doesn't count in that case. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer Grammarian of the KLI www.klingonwiki.net/En/Pronunciation
kechpaja:
if I remember correctly, your native language is Greek
correct ! kechpaja:
if I remember correctly, your native language is Greek (correct me if I'm wrong on that?), which has a sound similar to [χ] ([x], which confusingly is written as <χ> in the Greek alphabet) and a sound similar to [q] ([k]), but usually doesn't put those two sounds together at the beginning or end of a word the way Klingon does. On the other hand, both in Greek and in English, the cluster /kr/ is very common at the beginning of a word, leading a native speaker of either language to more naturally assume that that's what they are hearing, rather than [qχ].
This is a truly wonderful explanation. Perhaps this is indeed the explanation of my confusion with regards to the {Q}. lieven:
Actually, hearing the r in the Q sound is not so far off. Note that most of the English versions on Q-names start with Kr, so it was surely Okrands intention and also a linguistic basis to have those sounds resembling. But indeed, in Klingon, you don't say {qr}. Qaj - Kradge Qel - Krell Qugh - Kruge Qotmagh - Krotmag Qo'noS - Kronos
And here lies the additional problem; As if things weren't already confusing enough, we have the english translations, all translating the {Q} as "kr". As a result, it is so easy to get the impression that its correct sound is "kr" instead of [qχ]. And because I usually encountered the {Q} at the translations of klingon names, for a while I was under the impression, that when it came to names some special pronunciation rules of {Q} applied, compared to its pronunciation in other words. Anyway, Do', DaH, vIt vIyaj. qunnoq On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:22 AM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Jul 11, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
a) You can easily describe {Q} in Klingon as {q} + {H}.
You *can*, but you would be describing the sound inaccurately. {H} is velar; {Q} is uvular.
-- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 12.07.2017 um 08:27 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
And here lies the additional problem; As if things weren't already confusing enough, we have the english translations, all translating the {Q} as "kr". As a result, it is so easy to get the impression that its correct sound is "kr" instead of [qχ].
Yes, but remember that any kind of transcription can never duplicate the same sounds, especially if the do not exist. For instance, you know that {tlhIngan} is transcribed as "Klingon", but tlh is certainly not KL. On Jul 11, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
a) You can easily describe {Q} in Klingon as {q} + {H}.
On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:22 AM, <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
You *can*, but you would be describing the sound inaccurately. {H} is velar; {Q} is uvular.
That is true, but the difference is so slightly, that for a beginner, it still is the best way to describe it. (btw, I had regular discussions that Okrand's H is not always really velar, so the difference is really slightly - but that's another topic I don't want to restart. Okrand confirmed that H is velar.) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
I would also point out that as the mouth transitions from an unvoiced uvular affricate to a vowel, it will pass through a velar or even palatal approximant. In other words, as the mouth moves from the shape of a {Q} to the shape of one of the vowels, it passes through an /r/ shape. Notice that the non-existent "r" is only heard when the {Q} is followed by a vowel and not when it is final. Jeremy
On 7/13/2017 3:29 PM, David Holt wrote:
I would also point out that as the mouth transitions from an unvoiced uvular affricate to a vowel, it will pass through a velar or even palatal approximant. In other words, as the mouth moves from the shape of a {Q} to the shape of one of the vowels, it passes through an /r/ shape. Notice that the non-existent "r" is only heard when the {Q} is followed by a vowel and not when it is final.
Can you elaborate on this? When I pronounce *Q* and then a vowel, my mouth does not pass through what I think of as an /r/ shape. Do you mean like the French guttural /r/? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Jeremy wrote: I would also point out that as the mouth transitions from an unvoiced uvular affricate to a vowel, it will pass through a velar or even palatal approximant. In other words, as the mouth moves from the shape of a {Q} to the shape of one of the vowels, it passes through an /r/ shape. Notice that the non-existent "r" is only heard when the {Q} is followed by a vowel and not when it is final. jatlh SuStel: Can you elaborate on this? When I pronounce Q and then a vowel, my mouth does not pass through what I think of as an r shape. Do you mean like the French guttural r? That second sentence was written for people who would not understand the first sentence and it is intended to help them understand why they might hear an r, but I suppose it might be misleading if they start raising the front of their tongue because of my inaccurate summary. It's really more the approximant aspect of the movement that English speakers hear as an r, rather than the actual shape. Most often, in American English (as well as in Received Pronunciation) the /r/ is a postalveolar central approximant, but due to the wide variation of placement and the common American raising of much of the tongue for the sound, English speakers will often recognize any central approximant as a variation of /r/. Thus as the tongue moves through "the French gutteral r" ([ʁ]) to move from the {Q} to the vowel, it often sounds like there's an extra r appearing between them, thus accounting for the transcription of {Q} to "Kr". Jeremy
Another factor affecting the human brain's decoding of speech is this effect. The engine noise of a big lorry / truck is often spelled "brrrm". If I say "brrrm", I say it with distinct "b" and "r" and "m" phonemes in it. But if you listen carefully to the loud diesel-powered noise made as a truck passes, you will notice no distinct phonemes in it, only a continuous noise somewhere between "b" and "r" and "m"; the brain registers all these phonemes at once; but, more accustomed to hearing phonemes in succession in speech, tends to remember it as the "b" and "r" and "m" sounds in succession. ----Original message----
From : kenjutsuka@live.com Date : 13/07/2017 - 21:44 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The pronunciation of {Q} Jeremy wrote: I would also point out that as the mouth transitions from an unvoiced uvular affricate to a vowel, it will pass through a velar or even palatal approximant. In other words, as the mouth moves from the shape of a {Q} to the shape of one of the vowels, it passes through an /r/ shape. Notice that the non-existent "r" is only heard when the {Q} is followed by a vowel and not when it is final. ......
participants (8)
-
Anthony Appleyard -
David Holt -
De'vID -
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh -
kechpaja -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
SuStel