verb prefix on XvaD Y ponglu' construction when Y is plural
Sometime ago, I wanted to say "they called the festival the panatheneans". So, initially I wrote {yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'}. But immediately I realized that the word "panatheneans" is plural; I can't translate it exactly in English, but it's like saying "the all Athenses". And by saying "Athenses" I mean the plural of the word "Athens". As if there are many cities, each by the name of Athens, and we're meaning all of them. (Perhaps, a similar example would be "they called the festival 'all solstices'"). Anyway, back to the original question.. Since the word "panatheneans" is plural, what should I write? yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu' yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu' Which of the two would be the correct choice? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
I would still use the singular verb prefix, since even though the English word is plural, it's still only one name. If, on the other hand, there were multiple festivals and each was called with the singular of the word, I would use a plural suffix. yupma'vaD «jajmey Dun» ponglu'. The festival is called "Great days". Great days is the name of the festival. It has only one name, and the plural suffix is a part of the name. yupma'meyvaD «jajmey Dun» luponglu'. The festivals are called "Great days". A single festival is called "jaj Dun", so the plural is not part of the name. As far as I know, there is no canonical evidence to support this though. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 14.50, D qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Sometime ago, I wanted to say "they called the festival the panatheneans".
So, initially I wrote {yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'}.
But immediately I realized that the word "panatheneans" is plural; I can't translate it exactly in English, but it's like saying "the all Athenses". And by saying "Athenses" I mean the plural of the word "Athens". As if there are many cities, each by the name of Athens, and we're meaning all of them.
(Perhaps, a similar example would be "they called the festival 'all solstices'").
Anyway, back to the original question.. Since the word "panatheneans" is plural, what should I write?
yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu' yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'
Which of the two would be the correct choice?
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
On 7/6/2022 7:50 AM, D qunen'oS wrote:
Anyway, back to the original question.. Since the word "panatheneans" is plural, what should I write?
yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu' yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'
/Panatheneans,/ being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon. *yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
Panatheneans,being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon.yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.
I think there is an error in this message, since you use singular ponglu'. So do you think that the word should be treated as plural (and the verb should be luponglu'), or that the word should be treated as singular (and the verb should be ponglu')? In my opinion, the word should be treated as singular, since it's a name and a foreign word. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 16.42, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/6/2022 7:50 AM, D qunen'oS wrote:
Anyway, back to the original question.. Since the word "panatheneans" is plural, what should I write?
yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu' yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'
Panatheneans, being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon. yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 7/6/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote:
SuStel:
/Panatheneans,/being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon.*yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.*
* * I think there is an error in this message, since you use singular *ponglu'*. So do you think that the word should be treated as plural (and the verb should be *luponglu'*), or that the word should be treated as singular (and the verb should be *ponglu'*)?
In my opinion, the word should be treated as singular, since it's a name and a foreign word.
Yes, I should have used the *lu-.* Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural. Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.
That isn't clear. For example, in Finnish, foreign plurals aren't acknoledged. Either the plural loaned word is treated as singular, or the foreign plural suffix is replaced with the Finnish plural suffix and then the word is a native plural word. In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter. SuStel:
Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it.
YvaD X ponglu' doesn't mean "one names the Xs". I know that "name, call" is the gloss, but the grammar of pong does not match those English words. There is no English word that matches the grammar, but perhaps "is used" is somewhat similar in grammar: "[the name] X is used for Y". I imagine that the name doesn't even need to be a noun phrase, it could be a sentence: paqvaD «qul naj» ponglu'. In my opinion, if we imagine the name to be a kind of quote, whatever grammar it has is irrelevant from the point of view of the outer sentence. Of course, since we have know info on this matter, it could very well work the way you suggest. I'm only trying to give a plausible reason why it could work the other way. You must be careful not to make claims that sound like facts when they are in reality speculation. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 17.46, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/6/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote:
SuStel:
Panatheneans,being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon.yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.
I think there is an error in this message, since you use singular ponglu'. So do you think that the word should be treated as plural (and the verb should be luponglu'), or that the word should be treated as singular (and the verb should be ponglu')?
In my opinion, the word should be treated as singular, since it's a name and a foreign word.
Yes, I should have used the lu-.
Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.
Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter.
I think this can vary quite a lot. For example, you'd normally say "The United States is a country.", rather than "The United States _are_ a country." With sports teams, on the other hand, one tends to use the plural form even when the team name is singular: "The Chicago Bulls are gonna win; they're the best." "Nuh-uh, Miami Heat are way better; they're gonna win for sure." ... although I'm pretty sure that you'd still use the singular form if you were specifically referring to the team's name, rather than to the team itself. "'The Chicago Bulls' is the name of a popular basketball team. Miami Heat are also a basketball team." For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions, but my gut feeling is that the object of {pong} is really a word/phrase (or a set of words/phrases), so it depends on the number of names being used, not the number of things being named. chaHvaD tlhInganpu' ponglu'. tlhInganpu'vetlhvaD martaq ghawran je luponglu'. latlh tlhInganpu'vaD pongmey law' luponglu'. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Iikka Hauhio <fergusq@protonmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 6:56:09 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Cc: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] verb prefix on XvaD Y ponglu' construction when Y is plural SuStel: Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural. That isn't clear. For example, in Finnish, foreign plurals aren't acknoledged. Either the plural loaned word is treated as singular, or the foreign plural suffix is replaced with the Finnish plural suffix and then the word is a native plural word. In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter. SuStel: Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it. YvaD X ponglu' doesn't mean "one names the Xs". I know that "name, call" is the gloss, but the grammar of pong does not match those English words. There is no English word that matches the grammar, but perhaps "is used" is somewhat similar in grammar: "[the name] X is used for Y". I imagine that the name doesn't even need to be a noun phrase, it could be a sentence: paqvaD «qul naj» ponglu'. In my opinion, if we imagine the name to be a kind of quote, whatever grammar it has is irrelevant from the point of view of the outer sentence. Of course, since we have know info on this matter, it could very well work the way you suggest. I'm only trying to give a plausible reason why it could work the other way. You must be careful not to make claims that sound like facts when they are in reality speculation. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 17.46, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: On 7/6/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote: SuStel: Panatheneans, being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon. yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'. I think there is an error in this message, since you use singular ponglu'. So do you think that the word should be treated as plural (and the verb should be luponglu'), or that the word should be treated as singular (and the verb should be ponglu')? In my opinion, the word should be treated as singular, since it's a name and a foreign word. Yes, I should have used the lu-. Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural. Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
De'vID:
For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions, but my gut feeling is that the object of {pong} is really a word/phrase (or a set of words/phrases), so it depends on the number of names being used, not the number of things being named.
chaHvaD tlhInganpu' ponglu'.
tlhInganpu'vetlhvaD martaq ghawran je luponglu'.
latlh tlhInganpu'vaD pongmey law' luponglu'.
I agree with this. However, the situation was that the festival has only one name that happens to be plural (perhaps similar to the United States example you gave). Specifically, Dana'an's question has two separate questions combined: - Are foreign plural words treated as grammatically singular or plural? - If a plural word is a name and we refer to it as a name, is it grammatically singular or plural? Answer to neither of these questions is obvious. For the first question, given that in Klingon irregular plurals are treated as singular, I think it might well be that foreign plural words are also treated as singular. There is no evidence for this possibility either. It is also possible that Klingons recognize the foreign plural form and treat the word grammatically plural. For the second question, I don't think we have enough evidence for either direction either. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 20.51, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter.
I think this can vary quite a lot. For example, you'd normally say "The United States is a country.", rather than "The United States _are_ a country."
With sports teams, on the other hand, one tends to use the plural form even when the team name is singular:
"The Chicago Bulls are gonna win; they're the best."
"Nuh-uh, Miami Heat are way better; they're gonna win for sure."
... although I'm pretty sure that you'd still use the singular form if you were specifically referring to the team's name, rather than to the team itself.
"'The Chicago Bulls' is the name of a popular basketball team. Miami Heat are also a basketball team."
For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions, but my gut feeling is that the object of {pong} is really a word/phrase (or a set of words/phrases), so it depends on the number of names being used, not the number of things being named.
chaHvaD tlhInganpu' ponglu'.
tlhInganpu'vetlhvaD martaq ghawran je luponglu'.
latlh tlhInganpu'vaD pongmey law' luponglu'.
//loghaD
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Iikka Hauhio <fergusq@protonmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 6:56:09 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Cc: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] verb prefix on XvaD Y ponglu' construction when Y is plural
SuStel:
Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.
That isn't clear. For example, in Finnish, foreign plurals aren't acknoledged. Either the plural loaned word is treated as singular, or the foreign plural suffix is replaced with the Finnish plural suffix and then the word is a native plural word. In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter.
SuStel:
Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it.
YvaD X ponglu' doesn't mean "one names the Xs". I know that "name, call" is the gloss, but the grammar of pong does not match those English words. There is no English word that matches the grammar, but perhaps "is used" is somewhat similar in grammar: "[the name] X is used for Y". I imagine that the name doesn't even need to be a noun phrase, it could be a sentence: paqvaD «qul naj» ponglu'. In my opinion, if we imagine the name to be a kind of quote, whatever grammar it has is irrelevant from the point of view of the outer sentence.
Of course, since we have know info on this matter, it could very well work the way you suggest. I'm only trying to give a plausible reason why it could work the other way. You must be careful not to make claims that sound like facts when they are in reality speculation.
Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio
------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 17.46, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/6/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote:
SuStel:
Panatheneans,being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon.yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.
I think there is an error in this message, since you use singular ponglu'. So do you think that the word should be treated as plural (and the verb should be luponglu'), or that the word should be treated as singular (and the verb should be ponglu')?
In my opinion, the word should be treated as singular, since it's a name and a foreign word.
Yes, I should have used the lu-.
Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.
Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
De'vID:
mu'tlheghvam vIqonpu'be'. Felix jIHbe'.
jISov. jIghItlhHa'. ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 23.28, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jul 2022 at 22:11, Iikka Hauhio <fergusq@protonmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions,
mu'tlheghvam vIqonpu'be'. Felix jIHbe'.
--
De'vID
On Wed, 6 Jul 2022 at 13:50, D qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Sometime ago, I wanted to say "they called the festival the panatheneans".
So, initially I wrote {yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'}.
But immediately I realized that the word "panatheneans" is plural; I can't translate it exactly in English, but it's like saying "the all Athenses".
English has "borrowed" enough Greek words that I think most literate English speakers would recognise the prefix "pan", e.g., "pan-American", "pan-Asian", and other "pan-" geographic terms; "pantheism", "pandemic", etc.
And by saying "Athenses" I mean the plural of the word "Athens". As if there are many cities, each by the name of Athens, and we're meaning all of them.
(Perhaps, a similar example would be "they called the festival 'all solstices'").
According to John Dryden's translation of Plutarch's Theseus, the name "Panathenaea" means "(the sacrifice of) all the united Athenians". But whether it refers to people or cities, it's in any case plural (in Greek).
Anyway, back to the original question.. Since the word "panatheneans" is plural, what should I write?
yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu' yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'
Which of the two would be the correct choice?
This doesn't really answer your question, but it really depends on whether the Klingon (or Klingon speaker) is aware that the original word was plural, and whether they care. Words which are plural in one language are sometimes borrowed into another language as singular. See this Quora question: https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-examples-of-plural-words-in-one-language... yupma'vamvaD «Hoch *aten-nganpu' yupma'» ponglu'. 'elaDya' Hol lo'lu'DI', «Panathenaea» jatlhlu'. -- De'vID
jIH:
But immediately I realized that the word "panatheneans" is plural; I can't translate it exactly in English, but it's like saying "the all Athenses". And by saying "Athenses" I mean the plural of the word "Athens". As if there are many cities, each by the name of Athens, and we're meaning all of them. De'vID: According to John Dryden's translation of Plutarch's Theseus, the name "Panathenaea" means "(the sacrifice of) all the united Athenians". But whether it refers to people or cities, it's in any case plural (in Greek).
I think what Dryden does, is describe the event which was happening during that festival, rather than the literal meaning of the word (which was my intention to describe). Although I can't translate it exactly in English, since it can be applied as a term to many things. But yes -as you wrote- it's always plural. De'vID:
This doesn't really answer your question, but it really depends on whether the Klingon (or Klingon speaker) is aware that the original word was plural, and whether they care. Words which are plural in one language are sometimes borrowed into another language as singular.
Yes, this is true. My confusion on this matter came as a result that my greek mind couldn't reconcile seeing {yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'} with the fact that the word is plural. On the other hand though, when I thought of the {yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'}, the problem became that I was given the impression that this festival had many names. De'vID:
yupma'vamvaD «Hoch *aten-nganpu' yupma'» ponglu'. 'elaDya' Hol lo'lu'DI', «Panathenaea» jatlhlu'.
This is a nice suggestion, but again the problem would be that the "panathenea" can refer to the city instead of the people. Of course one could argue, that in the festival it's the people that actually participate and not the buildings. I don't know.. Perhaps I'm overthinking this. It's tempting though to just write {yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'} basing this choice on the accord (if I understand correctly what this is..). But yes, I know that one could say that "we don't know for sure if the accord applies to foreign words too". But think of it this way; if I wanted to say "the spartans defeated the opponent", then I'd surely write {ghol lujeypu' spartans}, obviously treating the foreign word as plural. So why not do the same for the "panatheneans"? Anyway, I'll just stop now since this all gave me a headache. Thank you SuStel, De'vID, fergusq, and loghaD for sharing your thoughts on this matter. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
If we have canon for this, then it is settled. If we don’t have canon, then I suggest that a focus on Klingon grammar that we know. There are three nouns implied by {yupma’vaD Hoch panatheneans (lu)ponglu’}. The subject is indefinite. The object is plural. The indirect object/beneficiary is singular. Unless you are using the prefix trick, which one never uses with the indefinite subject and certainly no one is using here, the indirect object has nothing to do with the prefix. The plural object should determine the prefix. TKD gives us no rules as to the use of alien words. So far as we know, Klingons simply don’t use them, except to transliterate proper names, and even then, we are given no advice as to whether to use the foreign plural, as you have done, or Klingon plural suffix. If you go with the foreign plural, then you should not assume that the Klingon you are speaking to understands the foreign language enough to know that it is plural, and if you wish to convey that information, the best tool available is the verb prefix. Then again, we’ve been told that omitting {lu-} when it would be appropriate is perhaps the most common error in Klingon grammar, so in the end, unless this is some formal setting, it probably doesn’t matter very much. Meanwhile, the thing that leaps out at me the most is the use of untransliterated foreign words that violate Klingon phonology. I don’t think we have any canon for that, and it’s probably presumptive for us to do that. If we know for sure that the recipient of the communication is multilingual, then it makes sense, but if you were talking to a Klingon and you did that, I would not assume that you were safe from a response that included physical violence. Maybe. Maybe not. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Jul 7, 2022, at 8:21 AM, D qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
jIH:
But immediately I realized that the word "panatheneans" is plural; I can't translate it exactly in English, but it's like saying "the all Athenses". And by saying "Athenses" I mean the plural of the word "Athens". As if there are many cities, each by the name of Athens, and we're meaning all of them. De'vID: According to John Dryden's translation of Plutarch's Theseus, the name "Panathenaea" means "(the sacrifice of) all the united Athenians". But whether it refers to people or cities, it's in any case plural (in Greek).
I think what Dryden does, is describe the event which was happening during that festival, rather than the literal meaning of the word (which was my intention to describe). Although I can't translate it exactly in English, since it can be applied as a term to many things. But yes -as you wrote- it's always plural.
De'vID:
This doesn't really answer your question, but it really depends on whether the Klingon (or Klingon speaker) is aware that the original word was plural, and whether they care. Words which are plural in one language are sometimes borrowed into another language as singular.
Yes, this is true.
My confusion on this matter came as a result that my greek mind couldn't reconcile seeing {yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'} with the fact that the word is plural. On the other hand though, when I thought of the {yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'}, the problem became that I was given the impression that this festival had many names.
De'vID:
yupma'vamvaD «Hoch *aten-nganpu' yupma'» ponglu'. 'elaDya' Hol lo'lu'DI', «Panathenaea» jatlhlu'.
This is a nice suggestion, but again the problem would be that the "panathenea" can refer to the city instead of the people. Of course one could argue, that in the festival it's the people that actually participate and not the buildings.
I don't know.. Perhaps I'm overthinking this. It's tempting though to just write {yupma'vaD panatheneans luponglu'} basing this choice on the accord (if I understand correctly what this is..).
But yes, I know that one could say that "we don't know for sure if the accord applies to foreign words too". But think of it this way; if I wanted to say "the spartans defeated the opponent", then I'd surely write {ghol lujeypu' spartans}, obviously treating the foreign word as plural. So why not do the same for the "panatheneans"?
Anyway, I'll just stop now since this all gave me a headache.
Thank you SuStel, De'vID, fergusq, and loghaD for sharing your thoughts on this matter.
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ <https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/> Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (6)
-
D qunen'oS -
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Iikka Hauhio -
SuStel -
Will Martin