Pronunciation of words ending in "ngan"
Hi, that's something I was wondering for a long time. In all examples of spoken Klingon I have heard, the stressed syllable in the word *tlhIngan* seems to be the first one: *TLHIngan*. But according to TKD it should actually be the last one, right? For most planets and countries we use the name of the planet or country + *ngan*. Since *ngan* is not a suffix, but a noun, the result should also be stressed on the last syllable (if no syllable ends in *'*). I don't know if we can consider these words compound nouns, but anyway at klingonska.org I've found that "in compound nouns, only the last syllable of the *last stem* is stressed". Is this an exception to the main stress rules or am I missing something here? Or maybe I'm not hearing it properly? By the way: In the section about numbers in TKD we can read: "Higher numbers are formed by adding special number-forming elements to the basic set of numbers (1--9)". I know, a "number-forming element" is probably not the same as a suffix, but that would explain (at least to me) why these "number-forming elements" are usually not stressed. Maybe is *ngan* not only a noun, but also something like these "special forming elements"? Thank you!
On 10/5/2020 5:53 AM, Luis Chaparro Caballero wrote:
Hi,
that's something I was wondering for a long time. In all examples of spoken Klingon I have heard, the stressed syllable in the word *tlhIngan* seems to be the first one: *TLHIngan*. But according to TKD it should actually be the last one, right?
Finally, it should be noted that there are some words which seem to have variable stress patterns, with the stress sometimes heard on one syllable and sometimes on another. This phenomenon is not yet understood. The rules given above do not account for this variability, but if they are followed, stress will wind up on acceptable syllables. In other words, the rules for stress are a vague approximation, and wherever you see exceptions you mustn't be too surprised. Neither should you expect to be able to explain the exception.
By the way: In the section about numbers in TKD we can read: "Higher numbers are formed by adding special number-forming elements to the basic set of numbers (1--9)". I know, a "number-forming element" is probably not the same as a suffix, but that would explain (at least to me) why these "number-forming elements" are usually not stressed. Maybe is *ngan* not only a noun, but also something like these "special forming elements"?
Number-forming elements certainly are suffixes. They're number suffixes. Numbers aren't nouns, even if they act like them sometimes. Is *ngan* a suffix? Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it doesn't give us predictive power over stress. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
While we enjoy working in the fantasy world of the Klingon race as real, it’s good to keep in mind that Okrand works with actors, directors, and makeup artists (the the prosthetic teeth that Klingon actors often, but not always wear), and whatever shows up on the movie screen is always right. This is how we got {HIja’/HISlaH}. Okrand can make up rules for syllabic emphasis, but if an actor mauls the pronunciation, emphasis, or natural speech rhythm, it becomes canon. taH pagh…. [long pause] … taHbe’! charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Oct 5, 2020, at 7:47 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 10/5/2020 5:53 AM, Luis Chaparro Caballero wrote:
Hi,
that's something I was wondering for a long time. In all examples of spoken Klingon I have heard, the stressed syllable in the word *tlhIngan* seems to be the first one: *TLHIngan*. But according to TKD it should actually be the last one, right? Finally, it should be noted that there are some words which seem to have variable stress patterns, with the stress sometimes heard on one syllable and sometimes on another. This phenomenon is not yet understood. The rules given above do not account for this variability, but if they are followed, stress will wind up on acceptable syllables.
In other words, the rules for stress are a vague approximation, and wherever you see exceptions you mustn't be too surprised. Neither should you expect to be able to explain the exception.
By the way: In the section about numbers in TKD we can read: "Higher numbers are formed by adding special number-forming elements to the basic set of numbers (1--9)". I know, a "number-forming element" is probably not the same as a suffix, but that would explain (at least to me) why these "number-forming elements" are usually not stressed. Maybe is *ngan* not only a noun, but also something like these "special forming elements"? Number-forming elements certainly are suffixes. They're number suffixes. Numbers aren't nouns, even if they act like them sometimes.
Is ngan a suffix? Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it doesn't give us predictive power over stress.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 10/5/2020 11:43 AM, Will Martin wrote:
While we enjoy working in the fantasy world of the Klingon race as real, it’s good to keep in mind that Okrand works with actors, directors, and makeup artists (the the prosthetic teeth that Klingon actors often, but not always wear), and whatever shows up on the movie screen is always right.
Only if Okrand explains it. If he doesn't explain it, then any deviation from what he has explained may simply be an individual's idiosyncrasy or error. For instance, in Star Trek V, Vixis says *tlhIngan 'aH wa' vub'e'.* She mispronounces *'oH.* From just this, you can't conclude that *'aH* is an acceptable alternative to *'oH* or that some cohorts find it so or anything of the kind.
Okrand can make up rules for syllabic emphasis, but if an actor mauls the pronunciation, emphasis, or natural speech rhythm, it becomes canon. It becomes a canonical example of something that someone has said. That doesn't mean we should derive rules from it. Have you never misspoken or mispronounced something?
taH pagh…. [long pause] … taHbe’!
Here's the clip: https://youtu.be/HsCVuO1yeJc?t=25 There's no long pause there. And if there were, what would that mean? That you have to put a long pause between the *pagh* and the *taHbe'?* Really? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Ok, I understand, thanks! Anyway: Is my perception right? I mean, is *ngan* when being part of the name of an inhabitant mostly not stressed? And what about the "number-forming elements", they are also usually not stressed, right?
On 10/5/2020 2:11 PM, Luis Chaparro Caballero wrote:
Anyway: Is my perception right? I mean, is*ngan* when being part of the name of an inhabitant mostly not stressed? And what about the "number-forming elements", they are also usually not stressed, right?
Going by Okrand's pronunciation and a complete lack of any canonical counterexamples anywhere, I believe you are correct. (I can think of a non-canonical counterexample. In TNG's "Since of the Father," the characters consistently give stress to the second syllable of *cha'DIch.* They also pronounce it more like /cha-DEESH/.) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Going by Okrand's pronunciation and a complete lack of any canonical counterexamples anywhere, I believe you are correct. (I can think of a non-canonical counterexample. In TNG's "Since of the Father," the characters consistently give stress to the second syllable of cha'DIch. They also pronounce it more like cha-DEESH.)
Ok! Thank you very much for your quick response!
On 10/5/2020 2:11 PM, Luis Chaparro Caballero wrote:
Anyway: Is my perception right? I mean, is*ngan* when being part of the name of an inhabitant mostly not stressed?
It's true that it's mostly not stressed, and also true that the stress is not regular. I'm not aware of a constant pattern. As this question has been addressed several times, there's a paragraph about {ngan} in the Klingon Language Wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/Stress -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com
participants (4)
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Lieven L. Litaer -
Luis Chaparro Caballero -
SuStel -
Will Martin