expressing "the nerve of this guy"
In english we say "can you believe, the nerve of this guy?", which I think is described by one of the meanings of the adjective "bold" as "impudent/presumptuous", as is shown here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bold. Also, according to merriam-webster one of the definitions of "nerve" is: "assurance, boldness also: presumptuous audacity: gall". (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nerve) So, I ask.. You want to say "Can you imagine the nerve of that guy? Although he crashed my car, he wants me to pay for the damages he caused to that poor man's house too". How would you express in klingon this meaning of the word "nerve"? I don't think we could use the verb {jaq}, since according to kgt, the {jaqmoH} "embolden" can be said of music, which I don't think means the negative meaning of "the nerve of that guy". ~ Dana'an
The closest direct equivalent of "nerve" in this sense is probably {butlh} ("gall; dirt under one's fingernails"). However, this is generally seen as quite a positive trait to have; something to say if you're a bit impressed that he's trying to charge you for the damages. You could say something like {quv Hutlh} or {nur Hutlh} to describe somebody who acts shamelessly, or {nguq} for somebody with an overinflated ego, or {tlhIv} if they're challenging somebody who outranks them. For the example with the damages, I'd say {quv/nur Hutlh} makes the most sense, because the person seems to be out to make material gains without regard for what people will think of them; they'd rather be rich and reviled than poor and admired. If the person is trying to claim damages in order to give off an appearance of innocence, {Qaq} might be appropriate. If speaking directly to the person, {bItaHrup'a'?} may get some of the idea across. http://klingonska.org/canon/2003-09-holqed-12-3.txt //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 1:53:36 PM To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] expressing "the nerve of this guy" In english we say "can you believe, the nerve of this guy?", which I think is described by one of the meanings of the adjective "bold" as "impudent/presumptuous", as is shown here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bold. Also, according to merriam-webster one of the definitions of "nerve" is: "assurance, boldness also: presumptuous audacity: gall". (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nerve) So, I ask.. You want to say "Can you imagine the nerve of that guy? Although he crashed my car, he wants me to pay for the damages he caused to that poor man's house too". How would you express in klingon this meaning of the word "nerve"? I don't think we could use the verb {jaq}, since according to kgt, the {jaqmoH} "embolden" can be said of music, which I don't think means the negative meaning of "the nerve of that guy". ~ Dana'an _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
loghaD:
The closest direct equivalent of "nerve" in this sense is probably {butlh} ("gall; dirt under one's fingernails"). However, this is generally seen as quite a positive trait to have
Yes, I thought of using {butlh} too, but then the problem was indeed that it's a positive trait to have. Perhaps we could say something like {mutIch chaballIj} "your desire insults me", although again this doesn't seem to capture adequately the meaning of the "nerve" as described in the aforementioned car example. Or perhaps we could say {mumer chaballIj, 'ej mutIch} "your desire surprises and insults me". I don't know.. I can't seem to be able to think of anything better. ~ Dana'an
On 7/13/2021 10:03 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
loghaD:
The closest direct equivalent of "nerve" in this sense is probably {butlh} ("gall; dirt under one's fingernails"). However, this is generally seen as quite a positive trait to have Yes, I thought of using {butlh} too, but then the problem was indeed that it's a positive trait to have.
Perhaps we could say something like {mutIch chaballIj} "your desire insults me", although again this doesn't seem to capture adequately the meaning of the "nerve" as described in the aforementioned car example. Or perhaps we could say {mumer chaballIj, 'ej mutIch} "your desire surprises and insults me". I don't know.. I can't seem to be able to think of anything better.
Maybe just shake your fist and shout, *taHqeq!* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
butlh Hutlh nuvvam. quvHa’. charghwI’, retired
On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:30 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel:
Maybe just shake your fist and shout, taHqeq!
Well, that could work too!
The problem with the "nerve" word is that it's a "mixture" of many concepts: "arrogance/insolence/impudence/boldness/etc".
And it's hard to express all of them at the same time..
~ Dana'an _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 7:53 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
How would you express in klingon this meaning of the word "nerve"?
qajunpaQ "audacity" "In Klingon, it implies courage of a rather surprising or unexpected kind, perhaps even recklessness, as opposed to toDuj (courage, bravery), which is more neutral."
I thought of {qajunpaQ} “courage, audacity “ too, but this seems to be a form or recklessness in battle, perhaps of the sort that usually gets one killed. "You speak of courage. Obviously you do not know the difference between courage and foolhardiness." (Kor, TOS "Errand of Mercy") And AFAIK we have one example: SomrawDu'Daj teb qajunpaQ His muscles filled with rage (PB) What mayqel is looking for is the Klingon equivalent of *chutzpah*. Of the available options the expression {butlh ghajbogh nuv'e' yIHo'} “Admire the person with dirt under his fingernails” seems to me the closest: (TKW 142): The Klingon word {butlh} (“dirt under fingernails”) can be taken literally, but in this expression it means something like “effrontery, impudence, brazenness." WORF: Sir, may I say your attempt to hold the away team at bay, with a non-functioning weapon, was an act of unmitigated gall. UXBRIDGE: Didn't fool you, huh? WORF: I admire gall. [TNG "The Survivors"] [I’m not sure which word Worf was thinking of here, but it probably wasn’t {HuH} “bile, gall”. <g> Probably a bit of both.] mayqel rejected {butlh} because he thought it a positive trait, and the speaker in his example clearly doesn’t. Well, that’s *chutzpah* -- “brazenness”. Leo Rosten in his _The Joys of Yiddish_ gave the classic definition as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan." (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutzpah ) Most people don’t actually admire *chutzpah* but some find it amusing. -- Voragh From: Alan Anderson On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 7:53 AM mayqel qunen'oS wrote: In english we say "can you believe, the nerve of this guy?", which I think is described by one of the meanings of the adjective "bold" as "impudent/presumptuous", as is shown here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bold. Also, according to merriam-webster one of the definitions of "nerve" is: "assurance, boldness also: presumptuous audacity: gall". (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nerve) So, I ask.. You want to say "Can you imagine the nerve of that guy? Although he crashed my car, he wants me to pay for the damages he caused to that poor man's house too". […] How would you express in klingon this meaning of the word "nerve"? qajunpaQ "audacity" "In Klingon, it implies courage of a rather surprising or unexpected kind, perhaps even recklessness, as opposed to toDuj (courage, bravery), which is more neutral."
On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 at 22:31, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
I thought of {qajunpaQ} “courage, audacity “ too, but this seems to be a form or recklessness in battle, perhaps of the sort that usually gets one killed. "You speak of courage. Obviously you do not know the difference between courage and foolhardiness." (Kor, TOS "Errand of Mercy")
And AFAIK we have one example:
SomrawDu'Daj teb qajunpaQ
His muscles filled with rage (PB)
What mayqel is looking for is the Klingon equivalent of **chutzpah**.
I also thought of {qajunpaQ} and think it's exactly the word mayqel is looking for. We have the example of the original usage on screen, from the DS9 episode "Blood Oath". (The word was clearly invented by someone other than Dr. Okrand, then backfitted into Klingon by him in KGT.) Here's the entire dialogue: http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/439.htm KOR: Why do you dismiss her like some useless t'ooho'mIrah? KANG: We cannot go into an enemy stronghold with your sickly chest announcing us. KOR: There is nothing (cough) nothing wrong with my chest. KOLOTH: Nothing that won't get us all killed before we reach battle. Come. KOR: I need no nurse's hand. (Kor and Koloth leave. Dax joins Kang at a table.) DAX: You can't deny my right for vengeance. KANG: You try to speak as a Klingon but the words do not fit in your mouth. DAX: You said that to me before, Kang. Do you remember? KANG: I do not care to discuss it any further. DAX: The Korvat colony. First day of negotiations. I walked out on you right in the middle of that long-winded speech of yours. You should have seen the look on your face. *Nobody ever had the kajunpak't to show their back to the great Kang before Curzon did.* KANG: I almost killed Curzon that day. DAX: I knew I had to get you very, very angry or my mission wouldn't succeed. Getting you angry at me was the only way to begin to create a bond between us. KANG: Curzon understood Klingons. DAX: And he understood what he was doing when he took a Klingon blood oath. You can't expect me to stay here and not avenge my own godson's murder. You can't ask me to live with that kind of dishonour. KANG: I cannot dishonour myself by permitting you to die in Curzon's place. DAX: Who's talking about dying? I have no intention of dying. You dishonour yourself already, Kang, by placing your own honour above mine. No Klingon warrior would leave a comrade behind while he goes off to battle. Perhaps you're right. Klingon honour isn't what it used to be. KANG: Are you trying to anger me again? Do you think the same trick would work twice?! DAX: I understand Klingons. KANG: All right, then! It worked! Come fight with us. Come and be damned. "Nobody ever had the kajunpak't (sic) to show their back to the great Kang before Curzon did" sounds exactly like the Klingon equivalent of chutzpah to me. "Can you imagine the nerve of that Curzon? Walking out on the great Kang, in the middle of an important speech, like that?" This dialogue also gave us {tu'HomI'raH} (redundantly as "useless t'ooho'mirah") as well as the proverb {may'Daq jaHDI' SuvwI' juppu'Daj lonbe'} "When a warrior goes to a battle, he does not abandon his friends." -- De'vID
voragh and De'vID, thank you for taking the time to reply; reading your comments, I understood things I completely ignored before. voragh:
What mayqel is looking for is the Klingon equivalent of *chutzpah*. Of the available options the expression {butlh ghajbogh nuv'e' yIHo'} “Admire the person with dirt under his fingernails” seems to me the closest: (TKW 142): The Klingon word {butlh} (“dirt under fingernails”) can be taken literally, but in this expression it means something like “effrontery, impudence, brazenness."
Since I didn't know the exact meaning of the english words “effrontery, impudence, brazenness", I looked them up, and I was happy to realize that seemingly/apparently they *do* express the meaning of the word "nerve" I'm looking for. De'vID:
I also thought of {qajunpaQ} and think it's exactly the word mayqel is looking for. We have the example of the original usage on screen, from the DS9 episode "Blood Oath". (The word was clearly invented by someone other than Dr. Okrand, then backfitted into Klingon by him in KGT.) DAX: The Korvat colony. First day of negotiations. I walked out on you right in the middle of that long-winded speech of yours. You should have seen the look on your face. *Nobody ever had the kajunpak't to show their back to the great Kang before Curzon did.*
Reading this use of {qajunpaQ} I think that perhaps it could be used too, for expressing the desired meaning of "nerve". ..So, while I started from a situation where I had no Ca'Non klingon word for "nerve", now I seemingly/apparently have two to play with! But there's a slight problem: While the greek/english meaning of "nerve" is a negative one (i.e "nerve" isn't a desired thing for someone to exhibit in his actions), it seems that in the klingon way of thinking it *is* something actually admired. So, I come across a situation described by the irritating (for me) argument of "what a klingon would actually do/say/think". Do I use the {butlh}/{qajunpaQ} in order to express the action of a human acting for humans, in a text which is addressed to humans who don't give a crap for the cultural intricacies of klingons? Or do I jump on the "what a klingon would/wouldn't do" bandwagon? Because in the first case, I *can* use the {butlh}/{qajunpaQ} and humans will understand that it's something undesirable in the behavior of the subject.. But on the second case, someone using in-game thinking could say "And why do you say it like it's a bad thing? {butlh}/{qajunpaQ} is a desirable trait to have". I don't know.. I feel like a dog who has his food placed just an inch away from his rope limit.. I have what I want, and I can't decide whether I can use it or not. ~ Dana'an
On 7/14/2021 8:16 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
While the greek/english meaning of "nerve" is a negative one (i.e "nerve" isn't a desired thing for someone to exhibit in his actions),
I don't know about Greek, but in English, this idiomatic sense of /nerve/ is neutral, not negative. It's the context that colors it. /You've got some nerve showing your face around here again!/ (Negative) /He tried to work up the nerve to call her for a date./ (Positive)
it seems that in the klingon way of thinking it*is* something actually admired. So, I come across a situation described by the irritating (for me) argument of "what a klingon would actually do/say/think".
This is not a "what would a Klingon actually do/say/think" argument. This is a "what does this word connote" argument. There are definite cultural traits of Klingons that we are told about, some of which are generally admired by Klingons and some of which are generally disdained by them, and certain words refer to those traits. I'm not exactly sure how everyone has decided that Klingons view *qajunpaQ* as necessarily positive. We're told it fairly clearly about *butlh* in TKW. But for *qajunpaQ* it seems to me to be pretty much an exact correspondence to the idiomatic sense of /nerve,/ neutral without context. The only special connotation we're told about *qajunpaQ* is that it implies a surprising or reckless kind of courage that the neutral *toDuj* does not. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
I don't know about Greek, but in English, this idiomatic sense of nerve is neutral, not negative. It's the context that colors it. You've got some nerve showing your face around here again! (Negative) He tried to work up the nerve to call her for a date. (Positive)
Interesting! I was totally unaware of that.. Then there's no problem; I'll be using {qajunpaQ}, and provide the necessary context to clarify that it's qajunpaQ of the negative kind. Thanks. ~ Dana'an
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 15:22, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I'm not exactly sure how everyone has decided that Klingons view *qajunpaQ* as necessarily positive. We're told it fairly clearly about *butlh* in TKW. But for *qajunpaQ* it seems to me to be pretty much an exact correspondence to the idiomatic sense of *nerve,* neutral without context. The only special connotation we're told about *qajunpaQ* is that it implies a surprising or reckless kind of courage that the neutral *toDuj* does not.
Given that Kang "almost killed Curzon that day" for the latter's display of {qajunpaQ}, it's pretty clearly not necessarily positive from a Klingon point of view. -- De'vID
I wouldn’t be so sure. Perhaps all Klingon bffs have nearly killed one another at some point. charghwI’, retired
On Jul 15, 2021, at 12:56 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 15:22, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: I'm not exactly sure how everyone has decided that Klingons view qajunpaQ as necessarily positive. We're told it fairly clearly about butlh in TKW. But for qajunpaQ it seems to me to be pretty much an exact correspondence to the idiomatic sense of nerve, neutral without context. The only special connotation we're told about qajunpaQ is that it implies a surprising or reckless kind of courage that the neutral toDuj does not.
Given that Kang "almost killed Curzon that day" for the latter's display of {qajunpaQ}, it's pretty clearly not necessarily positive from a Klingon point of view.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Thank for providing the original context. It does change the discussion a bit! -- Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of De'vID On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 at 22:31, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu<mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: I thought of {qajunpaQ} “courage, audacity “ too, but this seems to be a form or recklessness in battle, perhaps of the sort that usually gets one killed. "You speak of courage. Obviously you do not know the difference between courage and foolhardiness." (Kor, TOS "Errand of Mercy") And AFAIK we have one example: SomrawDu'Daj teb qajunpaQ His muscles filled with rage (PB) I also thought of {qajunpaQ} and think it's exactly the word mayqel is looking for. We have the example of the original usage on screen, from the DS9 episode "Blood Oath". (The word was clearly invented by someone other than Dr. Okrand, then backfitted into Klingon by him in KGT.) Here's the entire dialogue: http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/439.htm<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.chakoteya.net/DS9/439.htm__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!t27fWPE1TYROoE_NmXJ-J-f1OISgzxLdzTwQjG3iEyCDNrulOPE7ylWPZUNbpENlqRo$> [ … ] (Kor and Koloth leave. Dax joins Kang at a table.) DAX: You can't deny my right for vengeance. KANG: You try to speak as a Klingon but the words do not fit in your mouth. DAX: You said that to me before, Kang. Do you remember? KANG: I do not care to discuss it any further. DAX: The Korvat colony. First day of negotiations. I walked out on you right in the middle of that long-winded speech of yours. You should have seen the look on your face. *Nobody ever had the kajunpak't to show their back to the great Kang before Curzon did.* KANG: I almost killed Curzon that day. DAX: I knew I had to get you very, very angry or my mission wouldn't succeed. Getting you angry at me was the only way to begin to create a bond between us. KANG: Curzon understood Klingons. [ … ] "Nobody ever had the kajunpak't (sic) to show their back to the great Kang before Curzon did" sounds exactly like the Klingon equivalent of chutzpah to me. "Can you imagine the nerve of that Curzon? Walking out on the great Kang, in the middle of an important speech, like that?" -- De'vID
participants (7)
-
Alan Anderson -
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin