According to the Klingon Wiki, TKD describes the letter*o*as in "go or mosaic". This is confusing, because English speakers would do that with a diphthong, rhyming "go" with "glow" and saying "mosaic" like "mow-saic". This is not what Okrand intended. He just wanted to make clear that it's not o like in "cop" or "pot". The sound still is a clear "o" without a following u sound. The word*qepHom <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/QepHom>*should NOT rhyme with "home". ORLY? Where does this revelation come from? TKD says that *o* sounds exactly the same as *ow* — meaning it's a diphthong that sounds exactly the same as American English /go./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 23:00, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
According to the Klingon Wiki,
TKD describes the letter *o* as in "go or mosaic". This is confusing, because English speakers would do that with a diphthong, rhyming "go" with "glow" and saying "mosaic" like "mow-saic". This is not what Okrand intended. He just wanted to make clear that it's not o like in "cop" or "pot". The sound still is a clear "o" without a following u sound. The word *qepHom <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/QepHom>* should NOT rhyme with "home".
ORLY? Where does this revelation come from? TKD says that *o* sounds exactly the same as *ow* — meaning it's a diphthong that sounds exactly the same as American English *go.*
Since this is a problem with the Klingon Wiki, maybe discuss it on that article's "talk" page?
It's the link that says "Discuss this topic" on the left: http://klingon.wiki/En/Pronunciation -- De'vID
Am 26.06.2020 um 23:00 schrieb SuStel:
According to the Klingon Wiki,
TKD describes the letter*o*as in "go or mosaic". This is confusing, because English speakers would do that with a diphthong, rhyming "go" with "glow" and saying "mosaic" like "mow-saic". This is not what Okrand intended. He just wanted to make clear that it's not o like in "cop" or "pot". The sound still is a clear "o" without a following u sound. The word*qepHom <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/QepHom>*should NOT rhyme with "home".
ORLY? Where does this revelation come from? TKD says that *o* sounds exactly the same as *ow* — meaning it's a diphthong that sounds exactly the same as American English /go./
I will answer this, because I wrote most of it there. I talked to Okrand at the qepHom more than once, and he confirmed it. Okrand has also told us many times that the description of TKD is not scientifiically perfect, and sometimes even intentionally confusing. The point of this paragraph in the wiki is to warn some some people who would speak "go" as a diphthong, very strongly ending it as [go-u]. (All of this is very hard to describe using written words only, and many people even speak differently depending on their dialect.) Listen to the sounds on the Klingon CD. When Okrand speaks a syllable like {bom} it rhymes more "bomb" than it does with "bo-u-m" or "bone". {bot} does not rhyme with "boat". {HoD} is just [xo:d] and not [xoud]. Roughly said, if you say {o} as [ou] you have a very strong American accent. Saying with other words: If {o} really were to be pronounced as a diphthong, he would have written so in the dictionary. (And as a sidenote, the letter {o} is sometimes spoken as [ɔ]) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On 6/27/2020 2:44 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
(All of this is very hard to describe using written words only, and many people even speak differently depending on their dialect.)
Listen to the sounds on the Klingon CD. When Okrand speaks a syllable like {bom} it rhymes more "bomb" than it does with "bo-u-m"
As an example of dialectical differences, no American English accent rhymes /bomb/ with Klingon *bom.* /Bomb/ has the same vowel as /father./ I think the solution here may be that it's not that every Klingon *o* is a diphthong, just the syllable-final ones. The vowel in *gho* is a diphthong, identical to *ghow;* but the vowel in *ghop* is not a diphthong, and it doesn't sound like *ghowp.* Likewise with *u:* *ghu* sounds like *ghuw; ghup* does not sound like *ghuwp.* This would allow what Okrand told you to be correct, with the exception of the syllable-final vowels described in the dictionary, an exception he wasn't addressing with you. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Just to be clear, I never had a personal conversation with Okrand about the sound of {o}. I had one private interview with him many years ago, transcribed and published in {HolQeD}, and otherwise had the same access to him at qep’a’mey over its first ten years as everybody else. Okrand and I also exchanged Email once in order to communicate between him and someone who made a meqleH and wanted to know how to spell it. He had a recording of Okrand pronouncing it at the public event where they had met, and I confirmed with Okrand via Email about the spelling before responding. But we never discussed {o} and my probably exaggerated respect for his privacy prevented me from ever contacting him for any other purpose over the years. It occurs to me that I might have his Email address packed away somewhere if it hasn’t changed, but I still have no interest in using it because he has given me so much with this language, he owes me nothing. I have no interest in annoying him. I’m just talking about the recordings of Okrand pronouncing {o}. In the recordings, I don’t hear *{ow}. It’s odd that he would give a description in TKD that would accurately apply to syllables ending with {o} and not to the far more common case of {o} between two consonants. Since {‘} is a consonant, {Qo’noS} is a bad example. That pretty much leaves the prefix {gho-} as the only example I can think of in the entire vocabulary. Did he really give us that description ONLY for the syllable {gho-} and not give us a description for every other use in the language? REALLY? Do we have a recording of him pronouncing the syllable {gho-}? I can maintain my respect for the decades of dedication you have applied toward making yourself one of the world’s best experts in the language while suspecting that this idea that the TKD description of the {o} sound applies only to the syllable {gho-} as far fetched. It seems more logical that his description in TKD is not perfectly accurate, but good enough as an introduction to stop people from making the mistake of pronouncing it with a “short o” sound, and that the recordings of Okrand pronouncing {o} should give us a more detailed example of how to pronounce it. Even if he explicitly wrote somewhere that you never see an {o} followed by a {w} because the first implies the other, that simply isn’t the way he pronounces it. Unless there are examples I either haven’t heard, or don’t remember. Without such examples, I’m tempted to think the description given that started this thread is at least as accurate as the cited example in TKD, and would lead to more people pronouncing Klingon better. Sent from my iPad
On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:45 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/27/2020 2:44 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
(All of this is very hard to describe using written words only, and many people even speak differently depending on their dialect.)
Listen to the sounds on the Klingon CD. When Okrand speaks a syllable like {bom} it rhymes more "bomb" than it does with "bo-u-m" As an example of dialectical differences, no American English accent rhymes bomb with Klingon bom. Bomb has the same vowel as father.
I think the solution here may be that it's not that every Klingon o is a diphthong, just the syllable-final ones. The vowel in gho is a diphthong, identical to ghow; but the vowel in ghop is not a diphthong, and it doesn't sound like ghowp. Likewise with u: ghu sounds like ghuw; ghup does not sound like ghuwp.
This would allow what Okrand told you to be correct, with the exception of the syllable-final vowels described in the dictionary, an exception he wasn't addressing with you.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Jun 27, 2020, at 09:49, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote: That pretty much leaves the prefix {gho-} as the only example I can think of in the entire vocabulary.
There’s also: {gho} - circle {ro} - trunk, torso, {Do} - velocity {po} - morning {cho-} you singular/me {jo} - resources {'o} - vocative “o” (The first five I thought of off the top of my head; the remainder I found by going through all of the consonants and adding o and seeing if it made a word.) So if it is true that syllable-final {o} is pronounced as a diphthong [ow], there are quite a few words that it could apply to.
On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:40, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh@qeylis.net> wrote:
On Jun 27, 2020, at 09:49, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote: That pretty much leaves the prefix {gho-} as the only example I can think of in the entire vocabulary.
There’s also:
{gho} - circle {ro} - trunk, torso, {Do} - velocity {po} - morning {cho-} you singular/me {jo} - resources {'o} - vocative “o”
(The first five I thought of off the top of my head; the remainder I found by going through all of the consonants and adding o and seeing if it made a word.)
Clearly I didn’t go through *all* of the consonants, since I missed {bo} - feather and {bo-} - you plural/him,her,it,them
So if it is true that syllable-final {o} is pronounced as a diphthong [ow], there are quite a few words that it could apply to.
Thanks. I’m not so much interested in proving myself to be right as I am in figuring out something like truth. So, there are apparently eight times as many examples of syllables that end in a bare {o} than I thought. Impressive, statistically. Of course, that pales in comparison to words that have {o} followed by a consonant. I’m pretty sure that number might come really close to having a comma in it, especially when considering words with affixes that include {o}, like {-moH}, which pretty clearly doesn’t sound like “mow”{H}, just like {Qo’noS} doesn’t remotely sound like “crow-know”{S}. Still, it seems odd to give a verbal description of how to pronounce {o} that it is suggested might apply only to the eight known syllables that end in {o} without giving a verbal description of how it is pronounced everywhere else, and even this presumes that he actually pronounces these eight syllables to rhyme with “mow”. Does anybody have a recording of him saying something in Klingon that rhymes with “mow”? That really is all I’ve asked for. Sent from my iPad
On Jun 27, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh@qeylis.net> wrote:
On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:40, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh@qeylis.net> wrote:
On Jun 27, 2020, at 09:49, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote: That pretty much leaves the prefix {gho-} as the only example I can think of in the entire vocabulary.
There’s also:
{gho} - circle {ro} - trunk, torso, {Do} - velocity {po} - morning {cho-} you singular/me {jo} - resources {'o} - vocative “o”
(The first five I thought of off the top of my head; the remainder I found by going through all of the consonants and adding o and seeing if it made a word.)
Clearly I didn’t go through *all* of the consonants, since I missed {bo} - feather and {bo-} - you plural/him,her,it,them
So if it is true that syllable-final {o} is pronounced as a diphthong [ow], there are quite a few words that it could apply to.
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6/27/2020 10:48 AM, Will Martin wrote:
It’s odd that he would give a description in TKD that would accurately apply to syllables ending with {o} and not to the far more common case of {o} between two consonants.
It wouldn't be odd if Okrand were explaining why *ow* doesn't appear at the end of a word instead of explaining *o* as a diphthong. See the original text: Note that when a vowel is followed by *w* or *y,* the combination of letters may not represent the same sound it does in English spelling: [chart: *aw, ay, ey, Iy, oy*] Klingon *uy* resembles /ooey/ in English /gooey./ Klingon *ew* resembles nothing in English, but can be approximated by running Klingon *e* and *u* together. Likewise, Klingon *Iw* is *I* and *u* run together. No words in Klingon have *ow* or *uw.* If they did, they would be indistinguishable from words ending in *o* and *u,* respectively. You see the point here is not so much the character of Klingon vowels as it is how to read various combinations you'll find in the book. It doesn't say Klingon *o* sounds like Klingon *ow;* it says Klingon words don't end with *ow* because it would sound like the word ends in *o.* This tells me that Klingon words that end in *o* end in a diphthong. Interestingly, of all the listed diphthongs, only *aw, ay, ey, **oy,* and *uy* allow a glottal stop after them: *aw', ay', ey', oy', uy'.* The combinations *ew', Iw', *and*Iy'* do not occur in any word even though there is no rule against it.
Did he really give us that description ONLY for the syllable {gho-} and not give us a description for every other use in the language? REALLY?
Did I say that? Only the syllable *gho?* I didn't say that. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
As usual, you make good points and your analysis is excellent. The only thing you haven’t addressed is why there doesn’t seem to be an implied {w} in the {o} sound in all the recordings of Okrand pronouncing words like {Qo’noS}, or any other word that includes {o}, unless you’d like to supply what I specifically requested, which is a recording of Okrand pronouncing an {o} in a Klingon word that includes the {w} sound. You brought up the example of {gho-} as a syllable that doesn’t follow the {o} with a consonant, and I appreciated that, because I had not thought of that example, so I tried to find a second example and couldn’t come up with one. If there are no other examples, then {gho-} is the only Klingon syllable that ends in {o}, and you did say that maybe the implied {w} in “mow-zaic” only applies to syllables that end in {o}. So, no, you didn’t explicitly say that Okrand’s verbal description applied to only {gho-}. You said that maybe it only applies to syllables ending in {o}, and the only example that I know of is {gho-}, so that does logically follow that he’d be giving that description of how {o} is pronounced in {gho-}, while not giving an accurate description of the {o} sound in any other syllable in the vocabulary. All we need is a recording of Okrand saying something with a Klingon {o} that sounds like the “mow” in “mosaic”... and maybe something to explain why that doesn’t happen in most of his pronunciation of words that include {o}. Sent from my iPad
On Jun 27, 2020, at 1:04 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/27/2020 10:48 AM, Will Martin wrote:
It’s odd that he would give a description in TKD that would accurately apply to syllables ending with {o} and not to the far more common case of {o} between two consonants. It wouldn't be odd if Okrand were explaining why ow doesn't appear at the end of a word instead of explaining o as a diphthong.
See the original text:
Note that when a vowel is followed by w or y, the combination of letters may not represent the same sound it does in English spelling:
[chart: aw, ay, ey, Iy, oy]
Klingon uy resembles ooey in English gooey. Klingon ew resembles nothing in English, but can be approximated by running Klingon e and u together. Likewise, Klingon Iw is I and u run together. No words in Klingon have ow or uw. If they did, they would be indistinguishable from words ending in o and u, respectively.
You see the point here is not so much the character of Klingon vowels as it is how to read various combinations you'll find in the book. It doesn't say Klingon o sounds like Klingon ow; it says Klingon words don't end with ow because it would sound like the word ends in o. This tells me that Klingon words that end in o end in a diphthong.
Interestingly, of all the listed diphthongs, only aw, ay, ey, oy, and uy allow a glottal stop after them: aw', ay', ey', oy', uy'. The combinations ew', Iw', and Iy' do not occur in any word even though there is no rule against it.
Did he really give us that description ONLY for the syllable {gho-} and not give us a description for every other use in the language? REALLY? Did I say that? Only the syllable gho? I didn't say that.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6/28/2020 7:35 AM, Will Martin wrote:
The only thing you haven’t addressed is why there doesn’t seem to be an implied {w} in the {o} sound in all the recordings of Okrand pronouncing words like {Qo’noS}, or any other word that includes {o},
I did address it. I speculated that only words that actually end in *o* use a diphthong. That excludes words like *Qo'noS.*
You brought up the example of {gho-} as a syllable that doesn’t follow the {o} with a consonant,
No, I brought up the /word/ *gho* as an example of a word that ends in *o.* If it's actually about ending words with *o,* then the prefix *gho-* will never qualify for a diphthong, because it never ends a word.
So, no, you didn’t explicitly say that Okrand’s verbal description applied to only {gho-}. You said that maybe it only applies to syllables ending in {o}, and the only example that I know of is {gho-}, so that does logically follow that he’d be giving that description of how {o} is pronounced in {gho-}, while not giving an accurate description of the {o} sound in any other syllable in the vocabulary.
I am not responsible for your inability to think of other syllables ending in *o.* I can assure you that I had several of those other words in mind too. I just picked one to make an example. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
First Id' like to comment something general about the Klingon Language Wiki, from the point of its admin: - The Klingon wiki is set up just like Wikipedia. This means that anyone can make changes and additions wherever needed. - Instead of changing, there is also the possibility to set a mark for questionalbe statements using the Tag %CN% meaning "citation needed". - Questions and suggestions can also be added to the discussion section of any page. Reagarding the note on the letter {o}, I would agree that those lines in there were not absolutely accurate. But on the other hand, they were not so wrong either, the perfect answer was somewhere in between. Regarding the comments of the past days and also some research on other places, it seems like we do agree that at least in the middle of a syllable that ends on a consonant, the letter [o] is not pronounced as a diphthong, or at least should not be. I also noticed that it's really not so easy to set this 100% accurate. Okrand speaks the [o] in many cases as an open vowel o, and oter cases as a closed vowel o. In addition, De'vID just piointed out that on PK he MO even speaks the o in {lenHom} as a diphthong. (although I don't hear that; he surely did not say [leng-houm]) We all know that TKD was written for the layman, and that it's not perfectly complete. The same counts for the Klingon wiki, which never claimed to be perfect. It's collection of rules, but also opinions and obervations which should help beginners and experts to find the best way to speak the language. And for a beginner, it is very important to know NOT to say [tlhIngan Houl]. That would create a horrible English accent. And that's the only hing phrase in the Wiki was intended for. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Pronunciation
On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 08:44, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 26.06.2020 um 23:00 schrieb SuStel:
According to the Klingon Wiki,
TKD describes the letter*o*as in "go or mosaic". This is confusing, because English speakers would do that with a diphthong, rhyming "go" with "glow" and saying "mosaic" like "mow-saic". This is not what Okrand intended. He just wanted to make clear that it's not o like in "cop" or "pot". The sound still is a clear "o" without a following u sound. The word*qepHom <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/QepHom>*should NOT rhyme with "home". [...]
Listen to the sounds on the Klingon CD. When Okrand speaks a syllable like {bom} it rhymes more "bomb" than it does with "bo-u-m" or "bone". {bot} does not rhyme with "boat".
I (re-)listened to Conversational Klingon, and when Okrand says {lenHom} (near the end of the second track called "Klingon cursing"), it sounds to me like it does rhyme with "home" or "bone". He says something like "len-home" (but with a {H}). -- De'vID
On 6/28/2020 9:49 AM, De'vID wrote:
On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 08:44, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de <mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote:
Listen to the sounds on the Klingon CD. When Okrand speaks a syllable like {bom} it rhymes more "bomb" than it does with "bo-u-m" or "bone". {bot} does not rhyme with "boat".
I (re-)listened to Conversational Klingon, and when Okrand says {lenHom} (near the end of the second track called "Klingon cursing"), it sounds to me like it does rhyme with "home" or "bone". He says something like "len-home" (but with a {H}).
I find it difficult to distinguish between [o] and [oʊ]. The best clue to the presence of [oʊ] is that the vowel is long. Okrand uses a number of *o* vowels in /Conversational/ and /Power Klingon./ Some of them are short, as in *SoH.* Some of them are long, as in *lenHom.* Some of them change: when he says *toDSaH,* he pronounces a short vowel; when he says the first syllable of that in isolation, *toD,* he uses a long vowel. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
While I completely agree with you, I do so with the understanding that, as in Japanese or Danish, a long vowel is a vowel literally held for a longer duration. The pronunciation of the long vowel doesn’t shift in either of those languages the way that what we call a “long” vowel shifts in English. The Japanese pronunciation of Tokyo uses long “o”s for both of those “o”s, and in the Romanized spelling of the Japanese can be transcribed either as Tookyoo or more commonly with the horizontal line over each “o”. My English last name, “Martin” is pronounced in Japanese as “Maatin” with the Japanese version of a long “a”. It’s still the same sound we use in English in the word “father”, but it’s held longer, and would most commonly be spelled “Matin” with a horizontal line over the “a”. What I’m not hearing from Okrand is the English “long o” in “mow”, which glides from what I hear as the Klingon {o} into the English “oo” sound in “goose”. Sent from my iPad
On Jun 28, 2020, at 10:20 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/28/2020 9:49 AM, De'vID wrote:
On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 08:44, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Listen to the sounds on the Klingon CD. When Okrand speaks a syllable like {bom} it rhymes more "bomb" than it does with "bo-u-m" or "bone". {bot} does not rhyme with "boat".
I (re-)listened to Conversational Klingon, and when Okrand says {lenHom} (near the end of the second track called "Klingon cursing"), it sounds to me like it does rhyme with "home" or "bone". He says something like "len-home" (but with a {H}). I find it difficult to distinguish between [o] and [oʊ]. The best clue to the presence of [oʊ] is that the vowel is long. Okrand uses a number of o vowels in Conversational and Power Klingon. Some of them are short, as in SoH. Some of them are long, as in lenHom. Some of them change: when he says toDSaH, he pronounces a short vowel; when he says the first syllable of that in isolation, toD, he uses a long vowel.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6/28/2020 10:39 AM, Will Martin wrote:
While I completely agree with you, I do so with the understanding that, as in Japanese or Danish, a long vowel is a vowel literally held for a longer duration. The pronunciation of the long vowel doesn’t shift in either of those languages the way that what we call a “long” vowel shifts in English.
When I said "long," I meant it in the sense of /lengthened,/ not as the diphthong English "long o." Okrand's pronunciation of *toD* and *lenHom* includes a /lengthened/ *o.* English "long" vowels were once actually lengthened vowels in Old English that had values closer to the Latin values. During the Great Vowel Shift the lengthened vowels turned into diphthongs. We still call them long, though in English that means a particular set of diphthongs. And we still have literally long and short vowels in English, but they rarely play any semantic role. Most people don't even hear them. (For instance, the word /cheese/ is pronounced with a "long /e,/" and it is also literally lengthened. The vowel's length is what turns the written /s/ into a voiced /z./ But if you shorten the /e/ sound to rhyme with /fleece,/ it's still the same word, just pronounced strangely.) It may be that Okrand is influenced by his American accent: because *toD* and *Hom* both end with voiced consonants, he may be lengthening the *o* the way you would in English. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
The issue at hand is whether Okrand wrote that description accurately, intending it to be pronounced as the glide between two sounds that a linguist would recognize in a typical American pronunciation of the word “oh” that rhymes with “mow”, or if he was merely making sure that you would never use the “o” sound in “pot”, which is the Klingon {a} sound. Meanwhile, in recordings of Okrand speaking Klingon, there is no second vowel sound in {o}. The Klingon {o} is like the first half of the American word “oh”, though normal, non-linguist, non-Klingon speaker doesn’t realize that the American word “oh” has two sounds. They don’t notice the glide from the first half of the word “oh” to the second half because it is always there. American English never uses the first vowel sound of “oh” alone. Does that help? Sent from my iPhone.
On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:17 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/28/2020 10:39 AM, Will Martin wrote:
While I completely agree with you, I do so with the understanding that, as in Japanese or Danish, a long vowel is a vowel literally held for a longer duration. The pronunciation of the long vowel doesn’t shift in either of those languages the way that what we call a “long” vowel shifts in English. When I said "long," I meant it in the sense of lengthened, not as the diphthong English "long o." Okrand's pronunciation of toD and lenHom includes a lengthened o.
English "long" vowels were once actually lengthened vowels in Old English that had values closer to the Latin values. During the Great Vowel Shift the lengthened vowels turned into diphthongs. We still call them long, though in English that means a particular set of diphthongs. And we still have literally long and short vowels in English, but they rarely play any semantic role. Most people don't even hear them. (For instance, the word cheese is pronounced with a "long e," and it is also literally lengthened. The vowel's length is what turns the written s into a voiced z. But if you shorten the e sound to rhyme with fleece, it's still the same word, just pronounced strangely.)
It may be that Okrand is influenced by his American accent: because toD and Hom both end with voiced consonants, he may be lengthening the o the way you would in English.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
There's a brief description of Klingon sounds using IPA symbols on pages xxvii-xxviii of the paq'batlh. I don't recall if it was written by Okrand, though IIRC he at least signed off on it. The vowels should not pose a problem for any speaker of a European
language. Except for one, they follow the “Italian,” open pronunciation: *a* /a/, *e* /ɛ/, *I* /ɪ/, *o* /o/, *u* /u/.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:04 PM Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
The issue at hand is whether Okrand wrote that description accurately, intending it to be pronounced as the glide between two sounds that a linguist would recognize in a typical American pronunciation of the word “oh” that rhymes with “mow”, or if he was merely making sure that you would never use the “o” sound in “pot”, which is the Klingon {a} sound.
Meanwhile, in recordings of Okrand speaking Klingon, there is no second vowel sound in {o}. The Klingon {o} is like the first half of the American word “oh”, though normal, non-linguist, non-Klingon speaker doesn’t realize that the American word “oh” has two sounds. They don’t notice the glide from the first half of the word “oh” to the second half because it is always there. American English never uses the first vowel sound of “oh” alone.
Does that help?
Sent from my iPhone.
On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:17 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/28/2020 10:39 AM, Will Martin wrote:
While I completely agree with you, I do so with the understanding that, as in Japanese or Danish, a long vowel is a vowel literally held for a longer duration. The pronunciation of the long vowel doesn’t shift in either of those languages the way that what we call a “long” vowel shifts in English.
When I said "long," I meant it in the sense of *lengthened,* not as the diphthong English "long o." Okrand's pronunciation of *toD* and *lenHom* includes a *lengthened* *o.*
English "long" vowels were once actually lengthened vowels in Old English that had values closer to the Latin values. During the Great Vowel Shift the lengthened vowels turned into diphthongs. We still call them long, though in English that means a particular set of diphthongs. And we still have literally long and short vowels in English, but they rarely play any semantic role. Most people don't even hear them. (For instance, the word *cheese* is pronounced with a "long *e,*" and it is also literally lengthened. The vowel's length is what turns the written *s* into a voiced *z.* But if you shorten the *e* sound to rhyme with *fleece,* it's still the same word, just pronounced strangely.)
It may be that Okrand is influenced by his American accent: because *toD* and *Hom* both end with voiced consonants, he may be lengthening the *o* the way you would in English.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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Am 29.06.2020 um 06:11 schrieb nIqolay Q:
There's a brief description of Klingon sounds using IPA symbols on pages xxvii-xxviii of the paq'batlh. I don't recall if it was written by Okrand, though IIRC he at least signed off on it.
That's a very good point we had forgotten in this discussion. {paq'batlh} is not a primary source and it has some questionable phrases, but it has been vetted by Okrand. If {o} were not [o] it would not be as [o] in the IPA list. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Paqbatlh
On 6/29/2020 2:09 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 29.06.2020 um 06:11 schrieb nIqolay Q:
There's a brief description of Klingon sounds using IPA symbols on pages xxvii-xxviii of the paq'batlh. I don't recall if it was written by Okrand, though IIRC he at least signed off on it.
That's a very good point we had forgotten in this discussion.
{paq'batlh} is not a primary source and it has some questionable phrases, but it has been vetted by Okrand. If {o} were not [o] it would not be as [o] in the IPA list.
He did not sign off on it. I don't think he even read it before it was published. I recall from its release that it was made very clear that only the translation, translator's note, and Old Klingon text are canonical; the introduction is not. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 6/28/2020 11:04 PM, Will Martin wrote:
The issue at hand is whether Okrand wrote that description accurately, intending it to be pronounced as the glide between two sounds that a linguist would recognize in a typical American pronunciation of the word “oh” that rhymes with “mow”, or if he was merely making sure that you would never use the “o” sound in “pot”, which is the Klingon {a} sound.
No, the issue at hand is that TKD says *ow* is indistinguishable from *o* and *uw* is indistinguishable from *u,* but *aw, ew,* and *Iw* are said to be different from *a, e,* and *w,* and are described as diphthongs, even if that word isn't used. Maybe *o* and *ow* are a single phoneme in Klingon — they don't distinguish between the monophthong and diphthong vowels. Maybe word-final *o* is different from word-internal *o.* Maybe the text of TKD is just plain wrong and Klingons would pronounce *no* exactly the same way you say it in Italian, [o]. Maybe *o* is always a diphthong and Okrand just mispronounces it sometimes. I don't know what the correct answer is. I just know that it's not as simple as "Klingon *o* is [o]. End of story." If Klingon *o* is just [o], the text of TKD must be explained in that context.
Meanwhile, in recordings of Okrand speaking Klingon,
Which, some have argued, he pronounces with an American accent. For instance, he uses an untrilled *r* when he says *rgh,* which isn't described in the dictionary. He has himself said he doesn't necessarily follow his own instructions in pronunciation.
there is no second vowel sound in {o}.
Except sometimes there is. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Well argued. You’ve convinced me that my previous view was in error. Thanks. The continued, unresolved issue is that the TKD description of {o} doesn’t match the lion’s share of Okrand’s actual pronunciation in his recordings, which memorably don’t include any glide, and that there is no TKD description that accurately matches the {o} sound that he usually uses (or maybe always uses). I guess I found it refreshing that Klingon might have had one more alien reminder that English does something that English speakers don’t realize they are doing, like the glottal stop before all syllables we spell starting with a vowel. It’s a cool idea for an amateur like myself with linguistic interests. I’m content to accept that either of the two possible pronunciations of {o} are probably okay, and it’s okay for me to prefer the non-gliding {o}, even if it’s not okay for me to wag my finger at people who use the glided “o”. I can deal with that. I’ve wagged enough fingers for enough years to recognize that in some areas, I really should cut it out. This can be one of those, even if, to my ear, a glided “o” sounds like Klingon with an American accent. tomayto, tomahto. The glided version described in TKD is apparently not wrong, even if it’s something Okrand himself doesn’t generally do. One would presume that doing what Okrand actually does also would not be overtly wrong. Meanwhile, I have a vague memory of previously believing that the {r} should be lightly trilled, but you corrected me, pointing out that TKD said it wasn’t trilled. I don’t have my TKD at hand now, so I can’t check. Now, you suggest that Okrand was wrong when he pronounced {rgh} because he doesn’t trill the {r}. I still trill it, myself, except for {rgh}, but that’s MY problem. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Jun 29, 2020, at 7:49 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 6/28/2020 11:04 PM, Will Martin wrote:
The issue at hand is whether Okrand wrote that description accurately, intending it to be pronounced as the glide between two sounds that a linguist would recognize in a typical American pronunciation of the word “oh” that rhymes with “mow”, or if he was merely making sure that you would never use the “o” sound in “pot”, which is the Klingon {a} sound. No, the issue at hand is that TKD says ow is indistinguishable from o and uw is indistinguishable from u, but aw, ew, and Iw are said to be different from a, e, and w, and are described as diphthongs, even if that word isn't used.
Maybe o and ow are a single phoneme in Klingon — they don't distinguish between the monophthong and diphthong vowels. Maybe word-final o is different from word-internal o. Maybe the text of TKD is just plain wrong and Klingons would pronounce no exactly the same way you say it in Italian, [o]. Maybe o is always a diphthong and Okrand just mispronounces it sometimes.
I don't know what the correct answer is. I just know that it's not as simple as "Klingon o is [o]. End of story." If Klingon o is just [o], the text of TKD must be explained in that context.
Meanwhile, in recordings of Okrand speaking Klingon, Which, some have argued, he pronounces with an American accent. For instance, he uses an untrilled r when he says rgh, which isn't described in the dictionary. He has himself said he doesn't necessarily follow his own instructions in pronunciation.
there is no second vowel sound in {o}. Except sometimes there is.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6/29/2020 1:55 PM, Will Martin wrote:
Meanwhile, I have a vague memory of previously believing that the {r} should be lightly trilled, but you corrected me, pointing out that TKD said it wasn’t trilled. I don’t have my TKD at hand now, so I can’t check. Now, you suggest that Okrand was wrong when he pronounced {rgh} because he doesn’t trill the {r}.
I don't suggest that. I simply point out that TKD says one thing while Okrand does another. Whether one is right and the other is wrong, or both are right under certain circumstances, or something else is going on, I don't know and can't say. It's okay to say "I don't know." It's the fundamental beginning of science, and linguistics is a science. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 28.06.2020 um 15:49 schrieb De'vID:
I (re-)listened to Conversational Klingon, and when Okrand says {lenHom} (near the end of the second track called "Klingon cursing"), it sounds to me like it does rhyme with "home" or "bone". He says something like "len-home" (but with a {H}).
As I said before, it's very difficult to decribe sounds using words. In addition, the pronunciation of English words even differs a lot depending on the where the speaker lives. Wikipedia even lists different ways of English pronunciation. Does {lenHom} rhyme with "home"? Maybe it does, depending on how you say "home". I wouldn't argue with that. Websters webpage does it perfectly like Klingon {Hom}: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/home But if a Klingon speaker from Great Britain would came to me saying {Hom} as [xəʊm], I think I would definitely want to correct them. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Pronunciation
I’m not so much interested in arguing about this than I am sincerely curious, because when I hear Okrand say {Qo’noS}, I don’t hear the glide. When I hear him say anything with an {o} in it, I don’t hear the glide. Maybe it’s because my native language is English, and English has the glide, so I’m blind to it, like so many English speakers who have problems with Klingon words that start with {‘} because they don’t realize that in English, ALL words that we think of as starting with a vowel more accurately start with a glottal stop, as any native speaking Hawaiian will be happy to explain to you. Arguments in favor of the glide have three points of evidence: 1. The description of the sound in TKD suggests there is a glide. 2. Unlike the many Klingon words that contain the spellings {-ay}, {-Iy}, {-ay}, and {yu-}, there are no Klingon words I can think of that have a sound spelled as *{-ow}. 3. Okrand loves to make exceptions to normal phonetic trends in the language, like the one he loves to talk about with {D} and {t}. The glide in {o} would be like that. All other Klingon vowel sounds are “simple”, but {o} could be a glide between two simple sounds. That second bit of evidence can be interpreted two different ways: 1. You don’t spell *{-ow} because {o} is already pronounced that way. Or 2. Like “f” this is a sound that Klingons never make. All this is great to think about and discuss, and heck, probably argue about in huge, bloody battles. But I don’t hear the glide in {Qo’noS}... I don’t remember hearing it anywhere that I’ve heard Okrand pronouncing {o}. Maybe someone could point out a recording of Okrand pronouncing {o} as a clearly enunciated gliding sound. I’d find it educational and clarifying. Sent from my iPad
On Jun 26, 2020, at 5:00 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: According to the Klingon Wiki,
TKD describes the letter o as in "go or mosaic". This is confusing, because English speakers would do that with a diphthong, rhyming "go" with "glow" and saying "mosaic" like "mow-saic". This is not what Okrand intended. He just wanted to make clear that it's not o like in "cop" or "pot". The sound still is a clear "o" without a following u sound. The word qepHom should NOT rhyme with "home".
ORLY? Where does this revelation come from? TKD says that o sounds exactly the same as ow — meaning it's a diphthong that sounds exactly the same as American English go.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
So I just reread the description in TKD, and I'm reading that as {o} is the vowl that "says its name", like the word "oh". I'm confused as how there is confusion. ~Melanie Roney Sent from my Palm Prē
participants (7)
-
De'vID -
Hugh Son puqloD -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Melanie Roney -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel -
Will Martin