expressing "reconcile" "I cause x and y to become friends" and {-chuqmoH} {-chuqqa'moH} {-chuqchoHmoH}
Recently, I needed to express "reconcile", so I went with "I cause x and y to become friends". HoDvaD yaSvaD je juppu' vImojmoH I cause the captain and the officer to become friends The first issue with this was that without context, one couldn't know whether the captain and the officer were friends, then stopped being friends, and then I cause the reconciliation, or whether prior to my action they were never friends to start with. Luckily, since the necessary context was available, this wasn't a problem. But then I realized something else. The klingon sentence literally says "I cause the captain and the officer to become friends", but it doesn't say that I cause them to become friends with each other. So it could be also understood as me causing them to become friends with some unmentioned third party. However, just before starting going down the rabbit hole of {-chuqmoH}/{-chuqqa'moH}/{-chuqchoHmoH}, I realized that perhaps there wasn't a problem since the same ambiguity exists as well in greek/english. So, I guess the questions are: 1. Do you agree with everything so far? 2. Is there a way to express "I cause x and y to become friends" with the {-chuqmoH}/{-chuqqa'moH}/{-chuqchoHmoH}? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
We know that you can combine reflexive and causative suffixes. The suffixes can be interpreted in two ways: - The causative comes before the reflexive (the subject causes themselves to do something): jIQuch'eghmoH I cause myself to be happy. - The causative comes after the reflexive (the subject causes someone else to do something): Qo'noS tuqmey muvchuqmoH qeylIS. Kahless united the tribes of Kronos. (paq'batlh) We are interested in the second interpretation. There is no transitive verb "be friend", so I'm not sure what verb you would attach-chuq to. Let's say we useparHa'. parHa'chuq HoD yaS je. The captain and the officer like each other. HoD yaS je vIparHa'chuqmoH. I cause the captain and the officer to like each other. If you add -choH or -qa', you are emphasising that there is change in state. Again, the suffixes can be interpreted in different ways depending on context: HoD yaS je vIparHa'chuqqa'moH. I cause again that the captain and the officer like each other. OR I cause that the captain and the other like each other again. The correct interpretation depends on context. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, March 24th, 2022 at 14.48, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Recently, I needed to express "reconcile", so I went with "I cause x and y to become friends".
HoDvaD yaSvaD je juppu' vImojmoH I cause the captain and the officer to become friends
The first issue with this was that without context, one couldn't know whether the captain and the officer were friends, then stopped being friends, and then I cause the reconciliation, or whether prior to my action they were never friends to start with.
Luckily, since the necessary context was available, this wasn't a problem. But then I realized something else.
The klingon sentence literally says "I cause the captain and the officer to become friends", but it doesn't say that I cause them to become friends with each other. So it could be also understood as me causing them to become friends with some unmentioned third party.
However, just before starting going down the rabbit hole of {-chuqmoH}/{-chuqqa'moH}/{-chuqchoHmoH}, I realized that perhaps there wasn't a problem since the same ambiguity exists as well in greek/english.
So, I guess the questions are:
1. Do you agree with everything so far? 2. Is there a way to express "I cause x and y to become friends" with the {-chuqmoH}/{-chuqqa'moH}/{-chuqchoHmoH}?
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
On 3/24/2022 9:40 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote:
We know that you can combine reflexive and causative suffixes. The suffixes can be interpreted in two ways: * *
1. The causative comes before the reflexive (the subject causes themselves to do something): *jIQuch'eghmoH* /I cause myself to be happy./ 2. The causative comes after the reflexive (the subject causes someone else to do something): Qo'noS tuqmey muvchuqmoH *qeylIS. */Kahless united the tribes of Kronos. /(paq'batlh)
We are interested in the second interpretation.
There is no transitive verb "be friend", so I'm not sure what verb you would attach*-chuq* to. Let's say we use*parHa'*. * * *parHa'chuq HoD yaS je. */The captain and the officer like each other./ / / *HoD yaS je vIparHa'chuqmoH. */I cause the captain and the officer to like each other./ / / If you add *-choH *or *-qa'*, you are emphasising that there is change in state. Again, the suffixes can be interpreted in different ways depending on context:
*HoD yaS je vIparHa'chuqqa'moH. */I cause again that the captain and the officer like each other. /OR /I cause that the captain and the other like each other again./ / / The correct interpretation depends on context.
The verb *moj*/become/ itself implies a change of state in a way that *parHa'//*/like/ does not. *HoDvaD yaSvaD je juppu' vImojmoH* does not benefit from having a type 3 verb suffix included, because the meaning is not "change from non-friends to friends," it is "start becoming friends" or "resume the process of becoming friends that had been interrupted," but does not distinguish whether the captain and officer were previously friends before, which is what Qa'yIn wants to know. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 3/24/2022 8:48 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Recently, I needed to express "reconcile", so I went with "I cause x and y to become friends".
HoDvaD yaSvaD je juppu' vImojmoH I cause the captain and the officer to become friends
HoD yaS je vImo'chuqchoHmoH I make the captain and the officer to accommodate each other. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
... vI*ma'*chuqchoHmoH ma' accommodate (v) (marqoS [date?], in re ST3): The Klingon is {qama'pu' jonta' neH!} ; the original script had the English as "I told you: engine only!" [...] but it got rewritten in the subtitles to "I wanted prisoners!" [...] The verb {ma'}, meaning to tell, was changed to {ja'} to remove the ambiguity of the sentence and make the substitution less obvious. (Holtej [date?]): "And, of course, the addition of the verb {ma'} "accommodate". So now, {qama'pu'} means {I have accommodated you", perhaps in a tongue-in-cheek swipe at Paramount by MO. (SuStel, 4/18/2018): I believe we heard Okrand tell this very story at qep'a' wejDIch." -- Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: SuStel On 3/24/2022 8:48 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Recently, I needed to express "reconcile", so I went with "I cause x and y to become friends".
HoDvaD yaSvaD je juppu' vImojmoH I cause the captain and the officer to become friends
HoD yaS je vImo'chuqchoHmoH I make the captain and the officer to accommodate each other. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 3/24/2022 10:07 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
... vI*ma'*chuqchoHmoH
HoD yaS je vImo'chuqchoHmoH I make the captain and the officer to accommodate each other. Hagh qoHpu' neH, HeghtaHvIS SuvwI'pu'!
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu., Mar. 24, 2022, 17:24 mayqel qunen'oS, <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Recently, I needed to express "reconcile", so I went with "I cause x and y to become friends". [...]
2. Is there a way to express "I cause x and y to become friends" with the {-chuqmoH}/{-chuqqa'moH}/{-chuqchoHmoH}?
For "reconcile", consider {qeHHa'}: {HoD yaS je vIqeHHa'chuqmoH} -- De'vID
participants (5)
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De'vID -
Iikka Hauhio -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel