Dear Klingonists, It's been four weeks since the book was published, and apparently nobody has noticed, so here we go. Especially those living in Germany may have noticed that I have written a book about the Klingon language, published by a famous travel guide publisher in Germany. Their phrase books all look the same and build up from the same structure, so I had no influence on the layout. A special thing about the layout is having all the words separated by hyphens, which is decided to make it easier for students to recognize the words, as in {Da-yaj-'a'}. Fortunately, I had a chance to talk to Maltz (through Marc Okrand) who could give a few words that are published in that book. For your record, the book's short title is "Kauderwelsch Klingonisch", the complete title is "Kauderwelsch-Band 250: Klingonisch - Wort für Wort". Okrand suggested and confirmed this spelling: Spock - SIpoq (p. 100) Voyager - vo'yajer (p. 101) Discovery - DISqa'vI'rIy (p. 101) He also revealed an expression for going to the bathroom. (p. 109) These are his words: ---- {taQbang ghIm} is the basic structure. You can, of course, substitute {turmIq} or {qeQ} in for {taQbang} if that's what you really want to say. So you can say things like {DaH jImej. turmIq vIghImnIS.} Maltz said Klingons don't have euphemisms for this sort of thing. On the other hand, there is a slang expression or idiom that's used from time to time, though mostly (but hardly always) by or to kids: {qIvon belmoH} (as in {DaH jImej. qIvonwIj vIbelnISmoH.} and the like). You might ask a child who's a little jittery {belHa''a' qIvonlIj?}. Most people say {qIvon}, though some say {qIvonDu'}. Maltz says he has no idea why this expression has this slang meaning, given what he knows about his own {qIvonDu'}. As with idioms in general, you can't substitute one word for another (unless you're playing word games). So saying something like {qIvonwIj vIQuchnISmoH} could only refer to making your {qIvon} happy, assuming it's possible to do such a thing. ----------------- For details on the book, see http://klingonisch.net/kauderwelsch/ -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Kauderwelsch
(TKW 174) : It is not clear what a {qIvon} is, aside from the fact that it is a Klingon body part... (st.klingon 6/29/1997): I tried to "pursue" the meaning of {qIvon}. Maltz seemed a little reluctant to talk about it. (I'd say "embarrassed," but that word is entirely inappropriate to use in describing a Klingon.) The next time the bloodwine is flowing freely, I'll try to remember to bring it up again. But I've noticed that, for me, anyway, bloodwine and memory don't mix. At least now we know why Maltz was embarrassed. <g> Lieven, thanks for sharing these. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons ---------------------------------------------Original Message--------------------------------------------- From: Lieven L. Litaer He also revealed an expression for going to the bathroom. (p. 109) These are his words: ---- {taQbang ghIm} is the basic structure. You can, of course, substitute {turmIq} or {qeQ} in for {taQbang} if that's what you really want to say. So you can say things like {DaH jImej. turmIq vIghImnIS.} Maltz said Klingons don't have euphemisms for this sort of thing. On the other hand, there is a slang expression or idiom that's used from time to time, though mostly (but hardly always) by or to kids: {qIvon belmoH} (as in {DaH jImej. qIvonwIj vIbelnISmoH.} and the like). You might ask a child who's a little jittery {belHa''a' qIvonlIj?}. Most people say {qIvon}, though some say {qIvonDu'}. Maltz says he has no idea why this expression has this slang meaning, given what he knows about his own {qIvonDu'}. As with idioms in general, you can't substitute one word for another (unless you're playing word games). So saying something like {qIvonwIj vIQuchnISmoH} could only refer to making your {qIvon} happy, assuming it's possible to do such a thing. -----------------
maltz:
Most people say {qIvon}, though some say {qIvonDu'}. Maltz says he has no idea why this expression has this slang meaning, given what he knows about his own {qIvonDu'}.
Does the above mean, that {qIvon} is another word for {'InSep}/{qey'Hav}, and {qIvonDu'} comes into play because klingons, due to bIraqlul have two of them ? ~ bara'qa' qunen'oS
Am 20.09.2019 um 17:41 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:> Does the above mean, that {qIvon} is another word for
{'InSep}/{qey'Hav}, and {qIvonDu'} comes into play because klingons, due to bIraqlul have two of them ?
No! Certainly not! (at least there's no evidence on that.) It seems to me like Okrand continues to play the game that we do not know exactly what a qIvon is. And I think he's planning to continue that as to not conflict with Star Trek canon. It just sounds very mysteriuos if somebody's qIvon hurts when they hit warp six, so going to the bathroom pleases the qIvon. It could still be anything. (By the way, it's very likely that Star Trek authors picked {qIv} "knee" and made it longer by one syllable.) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Kauderwelsch
On 9/20/2019 11:50 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
(By the way, it's very likely that Star Trek authors picked {qIv} "knee" and made it longer by one syllable.)
Then why didn't they just say /knee?/ I think the Star Trek writers were playing the same game that Okrand does: inventing a Klingon organ and not telling us what it is. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 18:01, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/20/2019 11:50 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
(By the way, it's very likely that Star Trek authors picked {qIv} "knee" and made it longer by one syllable.)
Then why didn't they just say *knee?* I think the Star Trek writers were playing the same game that Okrand does: inventing a Klingon organ and not telling us what it is.
It's explicitly stated in The Star Trek Encyclopedia, 3rd ed., p. 393, that this was the word for knee. Out-of-universe, the writers or director probably didn't like the way {qIv} sounded and added an extra syllable. In-universe, perhaps this is a dialectical word in Kor's dialect (he doesn't seem to quite speak what we know as standard Klingon), or perhaps there is some technical difference between {qIv} and *{qIvon}. -- De'vID
On 9/20/2019 1:19 PM, De'vID wrote:
On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 18:01, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 9/20/2019 11:50 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
(By the way, it's very likely that Star Trek authors picked {qIv} "knee" and made it longer by one syllable.)
Then why didn't they just say /knee?/ I think the Star Trek writers were playing the same game that Okrand does: inventing a Klingon organ and not telling us what it is.
It's explicitly stated in The Star Trek Encyclopedia, 3rd ed., p. 393, that this was the word for knee. Out-of-universe, the writers or director probably didn't like the way {qIv} sounded and added an extra syllable. In-universe, perhaps this is a dialectical word in Kor's dialect (he doesn't seem to quite speak what we know as standard Klingon), or perhaps there is some technical difference between {qIv} and *{qIvon}.
The encyclopedia explanation was doubtless invented after the fact to explain the word. I don't believe for a moment that the episode writer was thinking that. If it's his knee, he'd have said /knee./ The universal translator may leave some Klingon words untranslated, but it can translate /knee./ Martok didn't say "I do not want an artificial *min!*" He didn't say "I accept your lives into my *ghopDu'.*" Worf didn't say "I was standing in the jungle with my *tIq* pounding in my *logh'ob*." It simply makes no sense for the writers to put a Klingon word for /knee/ in Kor's mouth. On the other hand, it makes all kinds of sense for the writers to take a humorous line and add an unexplained Klingon organ to it, and leave it to our imaginations to decide what it is. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 19:37, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/20/2019 1:19 PM, De'vID wrote:
It's explicitly stated in The Star Trek Encyclopedia, 3rd ed., p. 393, that this was the word for knee. Out-of-universe, the writers or director probably didn't like the way {qIv} sounded and added an extra syllable. In-universe, perhaps this is a dialectical word in Kor's dialect (he doesn't seem to quite speak what we know as standard Klingon), or perhaps there is some technical difference between {qIv} and *{qIvon}.
The encyclopedia explanation was doubtless invented after the fact to explain the word. I don't believe for a moment that the episode writer was thinking that.
If it's his knee, he'd have said *knee.* The universal translator may leave some Klingon words untranslated, but it can translate *knee.*
Martok didn't say "I do not want an artificial *min!*" He didn't say "I accept your lives into my *ghopDu'.*"
In the episode "Blood Oath", the word {ghopDu'} was untranslated in the same script line as {qIvon}. Kor: Curzon? My dear friend Curzon? I lift my ghopDu' to Curzon Dax! Dax: And I, who was Curzon Dax lift my ghopDu' to you. Scorcher burn on your fourteenth rib, and your left qIvon aches every time your ship hits warp eight. -- De'vID
On 9/20/2019 2:11 PM, De'vID wrote:
Kor: Curzon? My dear friend Curzon? I lift my ghopDu' to Curzon Dax! Dax: And I, who was Curzon Dax lift my ghopDu' to you. Scorcher burn on your fourteenth rib, and your left qIvon aches every time your ship hits warp eight.
Sigh. Then it's just dumb. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:13 PM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/20/2019 2:11 PM, De'vID wrote:
Kor: Curzon? My dear friend Curzon? I lift my ghopDu' to Curzon Dax! Dax: And I, who was Curzon Dax lift my ghopDu' to you. Scorcher burn on your fourteenth rib, and your left qIvon aches every time your ship hits warp eight.
Sigh. Then it's just dumb.
From a writing perspective, it's probably intended to emphasize that Dax is familiar with Klingon customs. It's how Jadzia (re)introduces herself to Kor (from the shooting script at http://www.st-minutiae.com/resources/scripts/439.txt):
KOR
I am very thirsty.
DAX Kor, do you remember Curzon Dax?
KOR Curzon? My dear friend Curzon? I lift my ghoptu to Curzon Dax!
DAX And I, who was Curzon Dax lift my ghoptu to you. (off his look of disbelief) Scorcher burn on your fourteenth rib, and your left QiVon aches every time your ship hits warp eight.
So the first use of "ghoptu" is just Kor being drunk and dropping Klingon into his Federation Standard. He had just been regaling Quark's Bar with stories of honor and glory and battle, so he was probably in a very {tlhIngan jIH!} sort of mood. Then Dax repeats his phrasing, also using the Klingon words, to emphasize that she knows them. (It also seems that Kor's native dialect has D -> t and drops word-final glottal stops.) If we take {qIvon} to mean "knee" as the writers intended, for instance as a variant from Kor's native dialect, Dax's use of it would also emphasize that she's Curzon, since someone who didn't know Kor that well might just say {qIv}. If we also take {qIvon} as a standard dialect word for a possibly-vaguely-naughty body part, as suggested by the way Maltz talks about it, it would also emphasize the friendship between Curzon and Kor, because making innuendos and double-entendres seems like the sort of thing Kor and his warrior buddies would get up to. It's also possible that {qIvon} is sometimes used as a sort of bawdy slang replacement for {qIv}, because of the phonetic similarity. I am, of course, speculating wildly. But I don't think the DS9 writer's room and Maltz are wholly incompatable here. (I wonder if Maltz has ever heard {qIvon} used to mean "knee".)
On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 22:19, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
If we take {qIvon} to mean "knee" as the writers intended, for instance as a variant from Kor's native dialect, Dax's use of it would also emphasize that she's Curzon, since someone who didn't know Kor that well might just say {qIv}. If we also take {qIvon} as a standard dialect word for a possibly-vaguely-naughty body part, as suggested by the way Maltz talks about it, it would also emphasize the friendship between Curzon and Kor, because making innuendos and double-entendres seems like the sort of thing Kor and his warrior buddies would get up to.
It's also possible that {qIvon} is sometimes used as a sort of bawdy slang replacement for {qIv}, because of the phonetic similarity.
Kirk: I was lucky that thing had knees. Martia: That's not his knee. Not everybody keeps their genitals in the same place, Captain. -- De'vID
participants (6)
-
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel