At tkd, section 6.7 p.180 it says: "...The adverbial may actually follow the object noun (but still precede the verb) when the object noun is topicalized by means of the noun suffix -'e'..." I would like to ask: If the object noun doesn't have an -'e', but has another type-5 suffix, then does this same rule apply too ? For example if we write: pa'Daq nom yIjaH go quickly to the room Then would it be correct ? ~ nIghma'
*-Daq* isn't *-'e'*, so there's no reason to suppose it would be correct. I suppose if you wanted to emphasize the room instead of some other potential destination ("go quickly to the ROOM!"), you could phrase it like that, using the similarity to the *-'e'* construction for emphasis. But it still wouldn't be grammatical. It would be an instance of breaking the rules intentionally for a rhetorical effect. (In other words, if you said it in the heat of battle it would probably be understood, but you would still lose points on your Klingon 101 midterms.) Since the *-Daq* is optional with verbs of motion like that, you can sidestep the problem entirely and just use the suffix that we know works here: *pa''e' nom yIjaH!* On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 1:31 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At tkd, section 6.7 p.180 it says:
"...The adverbial may actually follow the object noun (but still precede the verb) when the object noun is topicalized by means of the noun suffix -'e'..."
I would like to ask:
If the object noun doesn't have an -'e', but has another type-5 suffix, then does this same rule apply too ?
For example if we write:
pa'Daq nom yIjaH go quickly to the room
Then would it be correct ?
~ nIghma'
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On 10/29/2017 2:01 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:
Since the *-Daq* is optional with verbs of motion like that, you can sidestep the problem entirely and just use the suffix that we know works here: *pa''e' nom yIjaH!*
The point of shifting the noun with *-'e'* is to reflect its grammatical emphasis by making it the first word you say. A locative noun is not a topic noun, so putting it first does not reflect its grammatical role. Do what the book says here; don't invent new rules. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 10/29/2017 2:01 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:
Since the *-Daq* is optional with verbs of motion like that, you can sidestep the problem entirely and just use the suffix that we know works here: *pa''e' nom yIjaH!*
The point of shifting the noun with *-'e'* is to reflect its grammatical emphasis by making it the first word you say. A locative noun is not a topic noun, so putting it first does not reflect its grammatical role.
Do what the book says here; don't invent new rules.
I'm not sure what new rule you think I've invented. Take a sentence like *pa' vIjaH*. Is *pa'* not the direct object of the motion verb? If it's the object, why can't it be topicalized and moved before an adverbial? If you wanted to emphasize *pa'* (as opposed to some other destination), why couldn't you put *-'e'* on it? The point of the question, as I read it, was what to do if you want to make the locative noun also the topic noun.
Not you, mayqel. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: nIqolay Q Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 3:57 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Placement of adverbial elements On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: On 10/29/2017 2:01 PM, nIqolay Q wrote: Since the -Daq is optional with verbs of motion like that, you can sidestep the problem entirely and just use the suffix that we know works here: pa''e' nom yIjaH! The point of shifting the noun with -'e' is to reflect its grammatical emphasis by making it the first word you say. A locative noun is not a topic noun, so putting it first does not reflect its grammatical role. Do what the book says here; don't invent new rules. I'm not sure what new rule you think I've invented. Take a sentence like pa' vIjaH. Is pa' not the direct object of the motion verb? If it's the object, why can't it be topicalized and moved before an adverbial? If you wanted to emphasize pa' (as opposed to some other destination), why couldn't you put -'e' on it? The point of the question, as I read it, was what to do if you want to make the locative noun also the topic noun.
Not you, mayqel. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: nIqolay Q Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 3:57 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Placement of adverbial elements On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: On 10/29/2017 2:01 PM, nIqolay Q wrote: Since the -Daq is optional with verbs of motion like that, you can sidestep the problem entirely and just use the suffix that we know works here: pa''e' nom yIjaH! The point of shifting the noun with -'e' is to reflect its grammatical emphasis by making it the first word you say. A locative noun is not a topic noun, so putting it first does not reflect its grammatical role. Do what the book says here; don't invent new rules. I'm not sure what new rule you think I've invented. Take a sentence like pa' vIjaH. Is pa' not the direct object of the motion verb? If it's the object, why can't it be topicalized and moved before an adverbial? If you wanted to emphasize pa' (as opposed to some other destination), why couldn't you put -'e' on it? The point of the question, as I read it, was what to do if you want to make the locative noun also the topic noun.
The point of the question was not how to make the locative noun also the topic noun; the point was to ask whether you could do with any type 5 noun what you can with a topic noun in moving it to the front. The answer is, you can’t. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: nIqolay Q Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 3:57 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Placement of adverbial elements On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: On 10/29/2017 2:01 PM, nIqolay Q wrote: Since the -Daq is optional with verbs of motion like that, you can sidestep the problem entirely and just use the suffix that we know works here: pa''e' nom yIjaH! The point of shifting the noun with -'e' is to reflect its grammatical emphasis by making it the first word you say. A locative noun is not a topic noun, so putting it first does not reflect its grammatical role. Do what the book says here; don't invent new rules. I'm not sure what new rule you think I've invented. Take a sentence like pa' vIjaH. Is pa' not the direct object of the motion verb? If it's the object, why can't it be topicalized and moved before an adverbial? If you wanted to emphasize pa' (as opposed to some other destination), why couldn't you put -'e' on it? The point of the question, as I read it, was what to do if you want to make the locative noun also the topic noun.
The point of the question was not how to make the locative noun also the topic noun; the point was to ask whether you could do with any type 5 noun what you can with a topic noun in moving it to the front. The answer is, you can’t. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: nIqolay Q Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 3:57 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Placement of adverbial elements On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote: On 10/29/2017 2:01 PM, nIqolay Q wrote: Since the -Daq is optional with verbs of motion like that, you can sidestep the problem entirely and just use the suffix that we know works here: pa''e' nom yIjaH! The point of shifting the noun with -'e' is to reflect its grammatical emphasis by making it the first word you say. A locative noun is not a topic noun, so putting it first does not reflect its grammatical role. Do what the book says here; don't invent new rules. I'm not sure what new rule you think I've invented. Take a sentence like pa' vIjaH. Is pa' not the direct object of the motion verb? If it's the object, why can't it be topicalized and moved before an adverbial? If you wanted to emphasize pa' (as opposed to some other destination), why couldn't you put -'e' on it? The point of the question, as I read it, was what to do if you want to make the locative noun also the topic noun.
participants (4)
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ghunchu'wI' 'utlh -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel