Would you accept {jaj veb} as a timestamp, the same way you accept {wa'leS} ? Would you see a difference between {wa'leS Soj wIqel} and {jaj veb Soj wIqel} ? ~ changan qIj

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:26 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:

{wa'leS} is in respect to today only

*teHbe'law'.* In the qep'a' 23 new words list <https://www.kli.org/activities/qepmey/past-qepamey/qepa-chamah-wejdich/new-words/>, there's a bit about time travel <https://www.kli.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Time_Terms.png>, and one of the examples is *jIvIbHa'. wejHu' jImev.*

*I time-travel three days into the past*; literally: "I time-travel to the past. I stop three days ago" - that is, I stop three days prior to a time referenced in the conversation, not necessarily three days prior to making this utterance.

Okrand's explanation suggests that the "number + time periods ago/from now" timestamps have some flexibility regarding what moment they're in reference to. It seems reasonable that, in the right context, *wa'leS* could be used to mean "the next day".

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 20:51, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:26 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:

...

{wa'leS} is in respect to today only

*teHbe'law'.*

In the qep'a' 23 new words list <https://www.kli.org/activities/qepmey/past-qepamey/qepa-chamah-wejdich/new-words/>, there's a bit about time travel <https://www.kli.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Time_Terms.png>, and one of the examples is

*jIvIbHa'. wejHu' jImev.*

...

*I time-travel three days into the past*; literally: "I time-travel to the past. I stop three days ago" - that is, I stop three days prior to a time referenced in the conversation, not necessarily three days prior to making this utterance.

Okrand's explanation suggests that the "number + time periods ago/from now" timestamps have some flexibility regarding what moment they're in reference to. It seems reasonable that, in the right context, *wa'leS* could be used to mean "the next day".

Is this surprising to anyone? It seems to me to be the same sort of thing as "Once upon a time, there lived a king... The king did something... The next day...". The reference is obviously not to the day after the storyteller is speaking, but the day after whatever the king did. I guess maybe the surprising thing is that {wa'leS} is explicitly defined as "tomorrow", which in English is always pegged to "today", in addition to its obvious construction from {leS} "days form now" and {wa'} "one". But I think this is just one of those "convenience" entries for looking things up. (An English speaker would obviously look up "tomorrow" rather than "days from now" and "one"). -- De'vID

On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 13:12, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

So, to summarize..

{jaj veb} *is*/*can be* a time stamp (if it is placed at the beginning of sentence).

But unless context is clear, there can be confusion as to whether we mean "tomorrow", or some other day.

Knowing very little about the Klingon calendar, I wouldn't presume that {jaj veb} means "tomorrow". Even some Earth cultures don't necessarily follow the English convention that the "next" day is "tomorrow". For example, when talking about time in Chinese, "forward" is in the past and "behind" is in the future. This is because in the traditional Chinese paper flip calendar, you'd tear off one page per day, so that the future dates are "behind" the current day, and the past days were previously "forward" of the calendar. This convention is still used despite the fact that most physical and software calendars in Chinese have adopted the Western layout of putting the days of the month from left to right with one week per row. For all we know, Klingon follows a different convention than English, and {jaj veb} means "yesterday"/"the day before". (Probably not, but not ruled out, either.) -- De'vID

On 3/25/2019 11:24 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:

Interesting information indeed. So lets approach this differently.

Suppose I write {jaj veb, vIghro' tIQ wIHaH'eghmoH}, for "next day we bathe the ancient cat".

The first question is "is this ungrammatical ?", and the second question is "what is the {jaj veb} if not a timestamp ?".

I don't think its ungrammatical, and seemingly/apparently {jaj veb} functions as a timestamp.

The only problem is, we don't know which day this {jaj veb} refers to.

It is a time stamp, and it's perfectly grammatical; it's just doesn't refer to a specific next day. When you say *jaj veb* in Klingon or /the next day/ in English, you're speaking deictically: the meaning of your expression is based on some already-established context. In this case, it might be directions for honoring a cat, in which case the context is that you have already begun the honoring process, and the next step takes place on the next day. You haven't specified which day on a timeline this is happening; it's not "March 26" or anything; it's just the day after the day you were already talking about. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

ghunchu'wI'

That last word, for example: {wIHaH'eghmoH} Normally, {-'egh} requires a no-object prefix, but {-moH} usually turns a verb with no object into a verb that has one. With your translation of "we bathe it", using both suffixes like that makes me wonder what nuance you're trying to express that isn't carried by just {wIHaH}.

kgt p.91: "The verb {HaH}, though once restricted to this form of food preparation, is now often used in the more general sense of "soak, drench." It is frequently heard in the reflexive form ({HaH'egh,} "soak oneself") in reference to such activities as drinking a great deal, which has positive connotations, and bathing, an occasional undertaking with negative connotations" ~ m. qunen'oS I find capitalization errors disturbing

Am 21.03.2019 um 18:22 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:

wa'leS vIghro' tIQ vIje' jaj veb vIghro' tIQ vIje'

Is there any reason I should choose one over the other ?

Yes: {wa'leS} is a known expression used in canon examples and {jaj veb} it not. It's basically like in English: Everyone understands "I'll buy the cat tomorrow", but it's strange if you say "I'll buy the cat on the next day" - people may ask "next day after what?" -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de