'eSpanya' QISmaS (Beginner's text and questions)
tugh qaS QISmaS. jar wa'maH cha' rav jaj javDIch 'aqroS jaj chorghDIch 'eSpanya''e' motlh juH lu'IHqu'choHmoHlu'. QISmaS Sor DIghaj, 'ach 'eSpanya' lurDech bIHbe'. *Bethlehem* velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'. pIj vIqraqna' bIH 'ej tInqu'. velqa'vam nu' ghaj je 'op DIvI', malja', chIrgh je 'ej SuchlaH nuvpu'. jaj cha'maH loSDIch, jaj wejmaH wa'DIch je nItebHa' Sop qorDu'mey, 'eybogh 'eSpanya' Soj vItlh luSop. jaj wejmaH wa'DIch pagh rep wa'maH cha' ghIrep naH DISop je, baS 'In DIQoy'taHvIS. nob Hevba' puqpu'ma', 'ach qembe' *Santa Claus*. qem wej ta' chul. wa' ta' wIv Hoch puq. jar wa' jaj vaghDIch Hoch vengDaq puqpu'vaD boghoy Dun tu'lu'. qaStaHvIS jajvetlh ram, QongtaHvIS puqpu', nob qem ta'pu'. As always, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to improve my Klingon. I also have some questions: 1. I've discussed in another thread the difference between *'eSpanya' QISmaS* and *'eSpanya'ngan QISmaS*. If I've understood it well, I think I could use both here with a similar meaning, but I've chosen *'eSpanya' QISmaS* because I wanted to present the traditions in the context of the country's culture, rather than focusing on the people. Was it right? 2. I wanted to use *'eSpanya''e'* as topic, but then I couldn't decide where I should place it. It's a noun with a Type 5 suffix. Time expressions come first. So I placed it after the time expression. However, my tendency was to say it at the beginning, before the time expression. Would that be right / possible? 3. In */Bethlehem/ velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'*, I've decided to use *'oH* since the idea is *As for our tradition, IT (the tradition) = miniatures of Bethlehem*, but I'm not sure about it. 4. Can we use *Such* with the meaning *to visit the miniatures*? Maybe *bej* would be better? 5. Am I telling dates / time correctly? I don't feel very confident with this. When should we tell time as hundreds? 6. Is it possible to say something like *jar wa' jaj vaghDIch ram* for *the night of January 5th*?
On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 17:44, <luis.chaparro@web.de> wrote:
tugh qaS QISmaS. jar wa'maH cha' rav jaj javDIch 'aqroS jaj chorghDIch 'eSpanya''e' motlh juH lu'IHqu'choHmoHlu'. QISmaS Sor DIghaj, 'ach 'eSpanya' lurDech bIHbe'. *Bethlehem* velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'. pIj vIqraqna' bIH 'ej tInqu'. velqa'vam nu' ghaj je 'op DIvI', malja', chIrgh je 'ej SuchlaH nuvpu'.
jaj cha'maH loSDIch, jaj wejmaH wa'DIch je nItebHa' Sop qorDu'mey, 'eybogh 'eSpanya' Soj vItlh luSop. jaj wejmaH wa'DIch pagh rep wa'maH cha' ghIrep naH DISop je, baS 'In DIQoy'taHvIS.
nob Hevba' puqpu'ma', 'ach qembe' *Santa Claus*. qem wej ta' chul. wa' ta' wIv Hoch puq. jar wa' jaj vaghDIch Hoch vengDaq puqpu'vaD boghoy Dun tu'lu'. qaStaHvIS jajvetlh ram, QongtaHvIS puqpu', nob qem ta'pu'.
As always, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to improve my Klingon. I also have some questions:
1. I've discussed in another thread the difference between *'eSpanya' QISmaS* and *'eSpanya'ngan QISmaS*. If I've understood it well, I think I could use both here with a similar meaning, but I've chosen *'eSpanya' QISmaS* because I wanted to present the traditions in the context of the country's culture, rather than focusing on the people. Was it right?
It's the difference between "Spain's Christmas", "Christmas of Spain" vs. "Spanish people's Christmas", "Christmas of Spanish people". I think either one could've been used here, but if you wanted to emphasise the link to the country, then your choice does that.
2. I wanted to use *'eSpanya''e'* as topic, but then I couldn't decide where I should place it. It's a noun with a Type 5 suffix. Time expressions come first. So I placed it after the time expression. However, my tendency was to say it at the beginning, before the time expression. Would that be right / possible?
Star Trek VI had Chancellor Gorkon yell {cheng'e' DaH Sam!} "Find CHANG now!", so it's at least possible to have the topic fronted before the time expression.
3. In */Bethlehem/ velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'*, I've decided to use *'oH* since the idea is *As for our tradition, IT (the tradition) = miniatures of Bethlehem*, but I'm not sure about it.
There is one example of pronoun agreement when the subject and object don't match, from the paq'batlh 1st edition: {wa' Dol bIH qa''e' porgh'e' je} However, Marc Okrand wasn't very happy with this, and in the 2nd edition this line will be changed to: {muvchuqtaH qa' porgh je} So my suggestion is to avoid a "to be" construction where the subject and object don't agree, if possible. 4. Can we use *Such* with the meaning *to visit the miniatures*? Maybe
*bej* would be better?
I don't see why not. If you're going from one place to another to look at something, {Such} seems right.
5. Am I telling dates / time correctly? I don't feel very confident with this. When should we tell time as hundreds?
{pagh rep} is correct for "midnight" by the military-style "hundreds" time system used in Conversational Klingon (1992). There's another way used in "interplanetary communication", which we were told about in this newsgroup message (1999), in which you use the name of the planet and number the hours from 1 to 24, so that midnight would be {tera' rep cha'maH loS} "Earth hour 24": http://klingonska.org/canon/1999-02-02-email.txt (This is of course silly as Earth does not have a single timezone, see e.g., https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeZonesDoNotExist and https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UniversalUniverseTime .) There's yet another way which is used in non-military contexts, and in which interplanetary communications are not a concern, involving the expression {N-logh Qoylu'pu'}, which is also explained in the newsgroup message above. Based on what we know, Klingons tell time differently depending on whether the context is military and whether they're communicating with other planets. But then, it's never wrong to use the military way of doing things when it comes to Klingons, so what you used is probably fine. 6. Is it possible to say something like *jar wa' jaj vaghDIch ram* for *the
night of January 5th*?
That's how I would say it. -- De'vID
Thank you for your helpful comments, De'vID and Voragh! De'vID:
2. I wanted to use *'eSpanya''e'* as topic, but then I couldn't decide where I should place it. It's a noun with a Type 5 suffix. Time expressions come first. So I placed it after the time expression. However, my tendency was to say it at the beginning, before the time expression. Would that be right / possible? Star Trek VI had Chancellor Gorkon yell {cheng'e' DaH Sam!} "Find CHANG now!", so it's at least possible to have the topic fronted before the time expression.
I knew the sentence, but since *DaH* is an adverb, I'm not sure if this is an example of a topic before an adverb or a topic before a time expression? The last one meaning we could place a topic at the very beginning of a sentence (what makes sense to me, but doesn't mean it makes sense to Klingons too :-) De'vID:
There's yet another way which is used in non-military contexts, and in which interplanetary communications are not a concern, involving the expression {N-logh Qoylu'pu'}, which is also explained in the newsgroup message above.
Thank you for the link, I had totally forgotten the option with *Qoylu'pu'* (and, by the way, I've noticed I've misspelled the verb *Qoy* in my text). In the newsgroup message we read that this way to say the time also works with the 24-hour system (which is common in Europe), so I guess we can say for example *wa'maH chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'*. Should I say for midnight *cha'maH loSlogh Qoylu'pu'* or something with *zero*? And is there a way to tell the minutes when using *Qoylu'pu'*? As an aside: do we know how to ask for the time when we tell it as hundreds? Voragh:
In this case I would say {'eSpanya'ngan lurDech}. I'm not sure whether countries (i.e. politico-geographical entities) have traditions - in either English or Klingon - or if the people (or possibly cultures) in them do.
(...)
If deciding whether to use {'eSpanya'} or {'eSpanya'ngan} with a noun throws you for a temporal loop, you can always say simply {'eSpanya'Daq ...}
:-) Well, my problem was actually how to say *Christmas in Spain* as the title of my text. Since we cannot use *-Daq* with the first name of a noun-noun construction, I was looking for other possibilities, and then I forgot *-Daq* when I was writing the text. When I think about these noun-noun constructions maybe I'm a bit influenced by my native language (where such constructions are almost non-existent). In Spanish there is nothing strange if I say *Las tradiciones de España* (Spain's traditions) if I want to focus on the geographical or historical-cultural aspect, rather than on the people. Voragh:
That being said,
... 'ach 'eSpanya'ngan lurDech 'oHbejbe'. ... but this isn't really a Spanish tradition.
I used *bIH* because I was referring to the *QISmaS Sor*, which was plural in the text. That's similar to the problem with */Bethlehem/ velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'*. The sentence of the PB quoted by De'vID (*wa' Dol bIH qa''e' porgh'e' je*) seems to suggest that the pronoun agrees with the subject, but I think it's better, as De'vID says, to avoid these constructions if possible.
Each tree isn't a separate tradition, but the custom of decorating Christmas trees is. Exchanging Christmas gifts is another. Cantar villancicos también es otra tradición. {wej QISmaS lurDech pIm bIH.} Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of luis.chaparro@web.de Voragh:
That being said,
... 'ach 'eSpanya'ngan lurDech 'oHbejbe'. ... but this isn't really a Spanish tradition.
I used *bIH* because I was referring to the *QISmaS Sor*, which was plural in the text. That's similar to the problem with */Bethlehem/ velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'*. The sentence of the PB quoted by De'vID (*wa' Dol bIH qa''e' porgh'e' je*) seems to suggest that the pronoun agrees with the subject, but I think it's better, as De'vID says, to avoid these constructions if possible. _______________________________________________
Voragh:
Each tree isn't a separate tradition, but the custom of decorating Christmas trees is. Exchanging Christmas gifts is another. Cantar villancicos también es otra tradición. {wej QISmaS lurDech pIm bIH.}
Pero, ¿hablas español? :-) Can't you say in English: *We have Christmas trees, but they are not a Spanish tradition*? In Spanish it works: *Tenemos árboles de Navidad, pero no son una tradición española*. I think, again, I have some difficulties because of the Spanish language, since we mostly don't use the subject pronouns. If you say *We have Christmas trees, but it is not a Spanish tradition*, what does *it* means for you here? *Tradition*? Of course, in order to avoid the problem with the agreement, it would be better to use *'oH*.
I was under the impression that the {Qoylu’pu’} method of time used a 12-hour clock instead of a 24-hour clock. {wa’maH loSvatlh rep = cha’logh Qoylu’pu’} Am I wrong about this?
On Nov 23, 2021, at 10:19 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
De'vID:
There's yet another way which is used in non-military contexts, and in which interplanetary communications are not a concern, involving the expression {N-logh Qoylu'pu'}, which is also explained in the newsgroup message above.
Thank you for the link, I had totally forgotten the option with *Qoylu'pu'* (and, by the way, I've noticed I've misspelled the verb *Qoy* in my text). In the newsgroup message we read that this way to say the time also works with the 24-hour system (which is common in Europe), so I guess we can say for example *wa'maH chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'*. Should I say for midnight *cha'maH loSlogh Qoylu'pu'* or something with *zero*? And is there a way to tell the minutes when using *Qoylu'pu'*?
As an aside: do we know how to ask for the time when we tell it as hundreds?
On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:48 PM Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
I was under the impression that the {Qoylu’pu’} method of time used a 12-hour clock instead of a 24-hour clock. {wa’maH loSvatlh rep = cha’logh Qoylu’pu’}
Am I wrong about this?
Probably. HolQeD 8:1 included a "Maltz Online" section which reprinted some of Marc Okrand's comments in places like the MSN expertform newsgroup. One of the comments was the one answering the question "What time is it?" The relevant excerpt is
*cha'logh Qoylu'pu*This is literally *Someone has heard it twice* or *It has been heard twice.* This is the Klingon equivalent to "It's two o'clock." Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system.
[The "traditional Klingon system" is speculated about, but never quite explained.] -- ghunchu'wI'
That’s a rather succinct challenge. Any evidence? Has there been any {Qoylu’} references in canon of a PM time?
On Nov 23, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
I was under the impression that the {Qoylu’pu’} method of time used a 12-hour clock instead of a 24-hour clock. {wa’maH loSvatlh rep = cha’logh Qoylu’pu’}
Am I wrong about this?
Probably.
On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 03:23, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
Probably.
HolQeD 8:1 included a "Maltz Online" section which reprinted some of Marc Okrand's comments in places like the MSN expertform newsgroup. One of the comments was the one answering the question "What time is it?" The relevant excerpt is
*cha'logh Qoylu'pu*This is literally *Someone has heard it twice* or *It has been heard twice.* This is the Klingon equivalent to "It's two o'clock." Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system.
[The "traditional Klingon system" is speculated about, but never quite explained.]
On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 04:22, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
That’s a rather succinct challenge. Any evidence? Has there been any {Qoylu’} references in canon of a PM time?
The quoted snippet from the HolQeD article says "Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system." That seems to support the claim that {Qoylu'pu'} is *probably* used with the 24-hour clock rather than the 12-hour one, because we're not told anywhere that it's used with the 12-hour system (unless the "traditional Klingon system" happens to be a 12-hour one, which seems unlikely). The quoted sentence comes right after the {cha'logh Qoylu'pu'} example, which it says means "two o'clock" (which the quoted sentence thus establishes as 2 a.m. rather than 2 p.m.). The article begins by stating in the second paragraph that "There are 24 hours in a day", with no mention of a 12-hour system. The only other example is {chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'} "eight o'clock". Since the only examples we have are for hours less than 12, we don't have any examples of a a p.m. time. But let's turn this around. The article says the system is used with a 24-hour clock. Is there any evidence that it's used with a 12-hour one? If so, how does one distinguish "2 a.m." from "2 p.m."? -- De'vID
It says that it is “also” used with the 24 hour system. You can’t have “also” without an alternative. Likely, Okrand did this to cover his butt if he forgot about 24 hours and gave a PM hour less than 12, and maybe to cover the rest of our butts as well. You can tell 2:00am from 2:00pm by looking out a window. 2:00am is dark.
On Nov 25, 2021, at 4:25 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 03:23, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote: Probably.
HolQeD 8:1 included a "Maltz Online" section which reprinted some of Marc Okrand's comments in places like the MSN expertform newsgroup. One of the comments was the one answering the question "What time is it?" The relevant excerpt is
cha'logh Qoylu'pu This is literally Someone has heard it twice or It has been heard twice. This is the Klingon equivalent to "It's two o'clock." Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system. [The "traditional Klingon system" is speculated about, but never quite explained.]
On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 04:22, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote: That’s a rather succinct challenge. Any evidence? Has there been any {Qoylu’} references in canon of a PM time?
The quoted snippet from the HolQeD article says "Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system." That seems to support the claim that {Qoylu'pu'} is *probably* used with the 24-hour clock rather than the 12-hour one, because we're not told anywhere that it's used with the 12-hour system (unless the "traditional Klingon system" happens to be a 12-hour one, which seems unlikely). The quoted sentence comes right after the {cha'logh Qoylu'pu'} example, which it says means "two o'clock" (which the quoted sentence thus establishes as 2 a.m. rather than 2 p.m.).
The article begins by stating in the second paragraph that "There are 24 hours in a day", with no mention of a 12-hour system. The only other example is {chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'} "eight o'clock". Since the only examples we have are for hours less than 12, we don't have any examples of a a p.m. time.
But let's turn this around. The article says the system is used with a 24-hour clock. Is there any evidence that it's used with a 12-hour one? If so, how does one distinguish "2 a.m." from "2 p.m."?
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Nov 25, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
It says that it is “also” used with the 24 hour system. You can’t have “also” without an alternative.
You seem determined not to read what it says. The “alternative” is given explicitly: the traditional Klingon system. Is there a canonical example anywhere of a 12-hour system being used? -- ghunchu'wI'
The issue here is that Okrand’s language and the fiction of Klingon culture are quite frequently nudge-nudge-wink-wink very familiar to life on Earth without a lot of thought. Why does Klingon have a 24-hour day at all? Meanwhile, we quite commonly assume that a Klingon hour is exactly as long as an Earth hour. I’m not sure that it has been explicitly stated that a Klingon second, minute, and hour are of identical length to the human time units of those durations, yet we quite comfortably behave as if that is true. And now, you want to get all huffy about the absurdity of assuming that the unexplained “traditional” Klingon alternative to military time could possibly be a 12 hour clock. Riiiiight. And time zones? Well, Star Trek never thinks about time zones, nor does it explain how measuring time works without them. I feel quite comfortable assuming that the traditional Klingon clock is a 12 hour clock until we are told otherwise. Yes, we can imagine other time systems, but they aren’t American, and in this Universe, pretty much everything is comfortably familiar to Americans, unless Okrand wants to make a joke out of an unexpected difference. He can do that whenever he wants. And we can’t.
On Nov 25, 2021, at 3:41 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Nov 25, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
It says that it is “also” used with the 24 hour system. You can’t have “also” without an alternative.
You seem determined not to read what it says. The “alternative” is given explicitly: the traditional Klingon system.
Is there a canonical example anywhere of a 12-hour system being used?
-- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 11/26/2021 8:49 AM, Will Martin wrote:
The issue here is that Okrand’s language and the fiction of Klingon culture are quite frequently nudge-nudge-wink-wink very familiar to life on Earth without a lot of thought. Why does Klingon have a 24-hour day at all?
I'm on vacation, and it hasn't been convenient for me to respond to the very silly things you've been saying. I've got a moment now. "Klingons have adopted the way most civilized planets in the Galaxy tell time. They have twenty-four hour days." /(Conversational Klingon)/ Why would they do this? It's just a TV show; don't worry about it. A "galactic standard" time makes sense, and the humans driving the Federation to adopt "Earth standard" time also makes sense in a "we barge in and tell you to do things our way" kind of way. And I have no doubt that all the various planets have their own local versions of time-telling that we're not told about. And it doesn't matter. Okrand could have told us that Klingons have thirteen-hour and forty-five minute days, and /klorns/ and /bleems/ instead of hours and minutes. It wouldn't have changed anything. People would be complaining that knowing the Klingon words for /klorns/ and /bleems/ were useless and would be pining for hours and minutes. So yeah, the fictional Klingon culture is frequently nudge-nudge-wink-wink very familiar. If you've only noticed this now, you haven't been paying attention. If you've only recently decided that this is unacceptable to you, you've spent a lot of time learning a language you're not going to enjoy.
Meanwhile, we quite commonly assume that a Klingon hour is exactly as long as an Earth hour.
It's completely irrelevant whether it is or isn't. If it is, then they're just using the same "galactic standard" time. If it isn't, then they've adapted it for Kronos. When someone says *rep,* they just mean whatever equivalent "hour" is in the local time system.
I’m not sure that it has been explicitly stated that a Klingon second, minute, and hour are of identical length to the human time units of those durations, yet we quite comfortably behave as if that is true. And now, you want to get all huffy about the absurdity of assuming that the unexplained “traditional” Klingon alternative to military time could possibly be a 12 hour clock.
No one but you is getting huffy, but people /are/ resisting your absurd objections. Others were perfectly willing to admit that there is no explicit proof that the *Qoylu'pu'* style of time-telling uses twenty-four hours, but when asked if you had any evidence for it using only twelve hours, your response is to rant about the foolishness of the fictional setting. Why not just say "I don't know" and move on?
Riiiiight.
And time zones? Well, Star Trek never thinks about time zones, nor does it explain how measuring time works without them.
Measuring time without time zones is easy. Everyone sets their clocks to exactly the same time. The idea that you go to work at 9 in the morning and leave work at 5 in the evening is a completely arbitrary convention that is not necessary to run a planetary society. So people on the other side of the planet's prime meridian will experience midnight at 1200 hours and noon at 0 hours. So what? The Science Asylum just did a video on this: https://youtu.be/DHIQxVhruak In fact, I'll bet you can't even point to any evidence that this isn't exactly what any or all planets in the setting do. I'm not saying it /is/ what they do, just that it doesn't really matter all that much.
I feel quite comfortable assuming that the traditional Klingon clock is a 12 hour clock until we are told otherwise. Yes, we can imagine other time systems, but they aren’t American, and in this Universe, pretty much everything is comfortably familiar to Americans, unless Okrand wants to make a joke out of an unexpected difference.
He can do that whenever he wants. And we can’t. If all you have is a cynical attitude about the Americanization of the galaxy, why are you even bothering with Klingon? Why is everything with you a slippery slope?
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 14:50, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
I’m not sure that it has been explicitly stated that a Klingon second, minute, and hour are of identical length to the human time units of those durations, yet we quite comfortably behave as if that is true.
I don't think anyone's behaving as if Terran and Klingon units of time are identical, and I suspect everyone actually assumes they're not. What people are doing is using words for the Klingon units of time to translate the Terran ones. It doesn't matter if one {rep} on {Qo'noS} is really 45 or 81 Terran minutes or whatever, people are just using it to mean the unit of time that's 60 Terran minutes when talking about time on Earth. This is one of those situations where people actually mean {tera' poH rep} and dropping the {tera' poH} because the context is time on Earth and not on {Qo'noS}. It's similar to how the Chinese word 尺 (a unit of length which is about a third of a metre) is used to translate "foot" and vice versa. Nobody who does this thinks that the two units are identical (and if people need to be specific, they can say "Chinese foot" or 英尺 ("English 尺")).
And now, you want to get all huffy about the absurdity of assuming that the unexplained “traditional” Klingon alternative to military time could possibly be a 12 hour clock.
Riiiiight.
When you say "12-hour clock", what you're referring to isn't a clock with 12 hours in a day, but a clock with 24 hours divided into 2 periods of 12. And we have evidence that the traditional Klingon system wasn't 24 hours, because we are told in Conversational Klingon that "Klingons have adopted the way most civilized planets in the Galaxy tell time. They have twenty-four hour days." If they've adopted 24-hour days, then their traditional system didn't have 24-hour days, meaning that it couldn't have had 2 periods of 12 hours, either. (Now, maybe they did have a literal 12-hour clock, i.e., 12 hours in a day, but that's not what you're saying.) Also, we're told that the (traditional) Klingon day goes from dawn to dawn, so presumably whatever audible signal {Qoylu'pu'} is referring to starts at that time. That is, the sound is heard once at one hour (however long a traditional Klingon hour is) after dawn, twice at two hours after dawn, and so on. Even if there were 2 (or more) periods in a day (where the number of repetitions of the sound resets to one), it would be an astounding coincidence if the sound were heard twice at two hours after noon. I'm not objecting to the idea that the traditional Klingon system is a "12-hour clock" (a 24-hour clock with 2 periods of 12 hours) because of "absurdity". Plenty of things in Star Trek are absurd, like the fact that Klingons are humanoids with funny foreheads. But I just don't see any evidence in favour of this idea, and it seems there are several pieces of evidence against it. -- De'vID
On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 16:00, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
You can tell 2:00am from 2:00pm by looking out a window. 2:00am is dark.
That's not what I asked. You're setting up a secret meeting. You receive a brief message that you meet when {cha'logh Qoylu'pu'}. Is your meeting during daylight or at nighttime, and how can you tell? -- De'vID
Am 26.11.2021 um 12:02 schrieb De'vID:
That's not what I asked. You're setting up a secret meeting. You receive a brief message that you meet when {cha'logh Qoylu'pu'}. Is your meeting during daylight or at nighttime, and how can you tell?
Maybe the same way we do that in English, or other languages? {DaHjaj ram maghom, cha'logh Qoylu'pu'DI'.} -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/WhatTimeIsIt
On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 12:17, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 26.11.2021 um 12:02 schrieb De'vID:
That's not what I asked. You're setting up a secret meeting. You receive a brief message that you meet when {cha'logh Qoylu'pu'}. Is your meeting during daylight or at nighttime, and how can you tell?
Maybe the same way we do that in English, or other languages?
{DaHjaj ram maghom, cha'logh Qoylu'pu'DI'.}
I don't think that's necessary in Klingon because I think {cha'logh Qoylu'pu'} already means "2 a.m." (and can only mean that). I'm asking for evidence that it can also mean "2 p.m." btw shouldn't your sentence be {DaHjaj ram maghomDI', cha'logh Qoylu'pu'} (with the {-DI'} attached to {maghom})? -- De'vID
This talk about whether Klingons use a 12 hour x2 clock... I think it is quite a Western Earth civilization based assumption that Klingons would have a 12 hour x2 clock. Since they apparently like the number 3, why not 1 through 8 three times? 1-8, 1-8, 1-8; instead of 1-12, 1-12. I will also point out that in Thailand, they break it into four sections. 1-6, 1-6, 1-6, 1-6. What we call 8pm would be another 2 O'clock. Stuff like a train schedule are done with a 24 hour clock. - DloraH On Thu, 2021-11-25 at 10:23 +0100, De'vID wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 03:23, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
Probably.
HolQeD 8:1 included a "Maltz Online" section which reprinted some of Marc Okrand's comments in places like the MSN expertform newsgroup. One of the comments was the one answering the question "What time is it?" The relevant excerpt is
*cha'logh Qoylu'pu*This is literally *Someone has heard it twice* or *It has been heard twice.* This is the Klingon equivalent to "It's two o'clock." Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system.
[The "traditional Klingon system" is speculated about, but never quite explained.]
On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 04:22, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
That’s a rather succinct challenge. Any evidence? Has there been any {Qoylu’} references in canon of a PM time?
The quoted snippet from the HolQeD article says "Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system." That seems to support the claim that {Qoylu'pu'} is *probably* used with the 24-hour clock rather than the 12-hour one, because we're not told anywhere that it's used with the 12-hour system (unless the "traditional Klingon system" happens to be a 12-hour one, which seems unlikely). The quoted sentence comes right after the {cha'logh Qoylu'pu'} example, which it says means "two o'clock" (which the quoted sentence thus establishes as 2 a.m. rather than 2 p.m.).
The article begins by stating in the second paragraph that "There are 24 hours in a day", with no mention of a 12-hour system. The only other example is {chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'} "eight o'clock". Since the only examples we have are for hours less than 12, we don't have any examples of a a p.m. time.
But let's turn this around. The article says the system is used with a 24-hour clock. Is there any evidence that it's used with a 12-hour one? If so, how does one distinguish "2 a.m." from "2 p.m."?
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 16:19, <luis.chaparro@web.de> wrote:
Should I say for midnight *cha'maH loSlogh Qoylu'pu'* or something with *zero*?
Unclear, but in the newsgroup posting/HolQeD article where the {Qoylu'pu'} idiom is explained, it says that the hours are labeled 1 through 24 in the {tera' rep N} system, but says nothing about how midnight is labeled using the {Qoylu'pu'} method, so I would assume it is {cha'maH loSlogh Qoylu'pu'} (as otherwise I would've expected it to be noted). But I would accept {paghlogh Qoylu'pu'} if I heard/saw it.
And is there a way to tell the minutes when using *Qoylu'pu'*?
Not that we know. But the form of the idiom suggests not, since presumably whatever is heard happens on the hour.
As an aside: do we know how to ask for the time when we tell it as hundreds?
The "hundreds" system is explained in Conversational Klingon, where the only way given to ask for time is to use {ghorgh}. The question {ghorgh mamej} is used as an example in the section on questions, and later, in the section about hotels (right after the section on telling time), the guest asks {ghorgh pa'wIjDaq jIchegh}. Since the only time-telling system which has been explained at this point is the "hundreds" system, presumably the answer will be of that form. However, in the hotel section, the Klingon clerk also says {vagh rep bImejnIS} "Checkout time is 5 am", with no explanation of why {vagh rep} is used or why it means "5 am" or why it wasn't {vaghvatlh rep}. (Maybe Okrand accidentally dropped the {-vatlh} due to its visual similarity to {vagh} when he was reading the script.) Presumably, this is what prompted the newsgroup posting/HolQeD article, which begins <Actually, there are several ways to ask "What time is it?" in Klingon. Here are a couple...> -- De'vID
(CK): The word for hour in Klingon is {rep}. “Six hundred hours” or six o'clock in the morning is “six” {jav} plus “hundred” “vatlh” plus {rep}; altogether it's {javvatlh rep}. Another example provided in “Conversational Klingon” was: pagh rep midnight (“zero hours”) (CK) Failing that one can always just say: DaHjaj ramjep this midnight, tonight at midnight (msn.onstage.startrek.expert.Okrand 6/29/1997) And in addition to the {Qoylu’pu’} method another way of asking the time is: rep yIper! Ascertain the hour! Specify the hour! (st.k 2/1999) (st.k 2/1999): This is literally "Label the hour!" -- Voragh _______________________________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of De'vID On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 16:19, <luis.chaparro@web.de<mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de>> wrote: Should I say for midnight *cha'maH loSlogh Qoylu'pu'* or something with *zero*? Unclear, but in the newsgroup posting/HolQeD article where the {Qoylu'pu'} idiom is explained, it says that the hours are labeled 1 through 24 in the {tera' rep N} system, but says nothing about how midnight is labeled using the {Qoylu'pu'} method, so I would assume it is {cha'maH loSlogh Qoylu'pu'} (as otherwise I would've expected it to be noted). But I would accept {paghlogh Qoylu'pu'} if I heard/saw it. And is there a way to tell the minutes when using *Qoylu'pu'*? Not that we know. But the form of the idiom suggests not, since presumably whatever is heard happens on the hour. As an aside: do we know how to ask for the time when we tell it as hundreds? The "hundreds" system is explained in Conversational Klingon, where the only way given to ask for time is to use {ghorgh}. The question {ghorgh mamej} is used as an example in the section on questions, and later, in the section about hotels (right after the section on telling time), the guest asks {ghorgh pa'wIjDaq jIchegh}. Since the only time-telling system which has been explained at this point is the "hundreds" system, presumably the answer will be of that form. However, in the hotel section, the Klingon clerk also says {vagh rep bImejnIS} "Checkout time is 5 am", with no explanation of why {vagh rep} is used or why it means "5 am" or why it wasn't {vaghvatlh rep}. (Maybe Okrand accidentally dropped the {-vatlh} due to its visual similarity to {vagh} when he was reading the script.) Presumably, this is what prompted the newsgroup posting/HolQeD article, which begins <Actually, there are several ways to ask "What time is it?" in Klingon. Here are a couple...>
In this case I would say {'eSpanya'ngan lurDech}. I'm not sure whether countries (i.e. politico-geographical entities) have traditions - in either English or Klingon - or if the people (or possibly cultures) in them do. AFAIK {lurDech} has only been used twice in Klingon, both with groups of people: qorDu' lurDechmeyna' pab tlhInganpu' With strong [Klingon] family traditions... S13 nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH. The editors and I hope to have respected your rich culture and tradition (Vincent Van Gerven Oei's speech at qepHom 10) That being said, ... 'ach 'eSpanya'ngan lurDech 'oHbejbe'. ... but this isn't really a Spanish tradition. If deciding whether to use {'eSpanya'} or {'eSpanya'ngan} with a noun throws you for a temporal loop, you can always say simply {'eSpanya'Daq ...}: ... 'ach 'eSpanya'Daq lurDech 'oHbe'. ... but in Spain this is not a tradition. Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message------------------------------ From: On Behalf Of luis.chaparro@web.de QISmaS Sor DIghaj, 'ach 'eSpanya' lurDech bIHbe'. *Bethlehem* velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'. [...] As always, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to improve my Klingon. I also have some questions: 1. I've discussed in another thread the difference between *'eSpanya' QISmaS* and *'eSpanya'ngan QISmaS*. If I've understood it well, I think I could use both here with a similar meaning, but I've chosen *'eSpanya' QISmaS* because I wanted to present the traditions in the context of the country's culture, rather than focusing on the people. Was it right? [...] 3. In */Bethlehem/ velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'*, I've decided to use *'oH* since the idea is *As for our tradition, IT (the tradition) = miniatures of Bethlehem*, but I'm not sure about it. _______________________________________________
On 11/22/2021 11:44 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
tugh qaS QISmaS. jar wa'maH cha' rav jaj javDIch 'aqroS jaj chorghDIch 'eSpanya''e' motlh juH lu'IHqu'choHmoHlu'.
I don't understand what *'eSpanya'* is supposed to be doing here. Do you want *'eSpanya'Daq*/in Spain/? If *'IH* is /be beautiful,/ then *'IHqu'* would be something like /be incredibly gorgeous./ Is this perhaps an exaggeration? I've noticed that people seem to always put *-qu'* on *'IH* as if it were needed to mean /beautiful./ It isn't.
QISmaS Sor DIghaj, 'ach 'eSpanya' lurDech bIHbe'. *Bethlehem* velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'. pIj vIqraqna' bIH 'ej tInqu'. velqa'vam nu' ghaj je 'op DIvI', malja', chIrgh je 'ej SuchlaH nuvpu'.
jaj cha'maH loSDIch, jaj wejmaH wa'DIch je nItebHa' Sop qorDu'mey, 'eybogh 'eSpanya' Soj vItlh luSop. jaj wejmaH wa'DIch pagh rep wa'maH cha' ghIrep naH DISop je, baS 'In DIQoy'taHvIS.
nob Hevba' puqpu'ma', 'ach qembe' *Santa Claus*. qem wej ta' chul. wa' ta' wIv Hoch puq. jar wa' jaj vaghDIch Hoch vengDaq puqpu'vaD boghoy Dun tu'lu'. qaStaHvIS jajvetlh ram, QongtaHvIS puqpu', nob qem ta'pu'.
As always, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to improve my Klingon. I also have some questions:
1. I've discussed in another thread the difference between *'eSpanya' QISmaS* and *'eSpanya'ngan QISmaS*. If I've understood it well, I think I could use both here with a similar meaning, but I've chosen *'eSpanya' QISmaS* because I wanted to present the traditions in the context of the country's culture, rather than focusing on the people. Was it right?
Think of *'eSpanya' QISmaS* as /Spanish Christmas/ and *'eSpanya'ngan QISmaS* as /Spaniards' Christmas./ I think you have chosen correctly.
2. I wanted to use *'eSpanya''e'* as topic, but then I couldn't decide where I should place it. It's a noun with a Type 5 suffix. Time expressions come first. So I placed it after the time expression. However, my tendency was to say it at the beginning, before the time expression. Would that be right / possible?
I strongly recommend against using a topic noun in this way. The rules suggest it should work, but it has never been done on a basic sentence in the way you're doing it. Some people do this, and some even recommend it, but you will inevitably run into the problem that *-'e'* does not successfully replace whatever English or Spanish preposition that you're trying to replicate. *-'e'* as topic is good for sentence fragments and or course copulas, but not really for OVS sentences. By the book, time expressions come before other things. Exactly what that covers is unclear, but generally you should do it. Your tendency is being informed by your native language, which works differently than Klingon. Klingon word order does not always feel natural, because none of us are native speakers.
3. In */Bethlehem/ velqa'mey nu' 'oH lurDechmaj'e'*, I've decided to use *'oH* since the idea is *As for our tradition, IT (the tradition) = miniatures of Bethlehem*, but I'm not sure about it.
Yeah, this has always been a problem. I think you've picked the right one, but I forget which one we've seen before. I wouldn't worry about it.
4. Can we use *Such* with the meaning *to visit the miniatures*? Maybe *bej* would be better?
*nuD? tIv?* We have a new word, *chotlh*/stare at, gaze at, ogle./
5. Am I telling dates / time correctly? I don't feel very confident with this. When should we tell time as hundreds?
Military time is used in the military, but we're told that Klingons like to do things in the military style. I would expect military time to be acceptable at any time, while other forms are only for more casual or intimate settings. A bunch of humans writing in Klingon on a mailing list? Pick whichever style you prefer.
6. Is it possible to say something like *jar wa' jaj vaghDIch ram* for *the night of January 5th*?
I'd accept it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Thank you, as always, for your reply, SuStel!
If 'IH is be beautiful, then 'IHqu' would be something like be incredibly gorgeous. Is this perhaps an exaggeration? I've noticed that people seem to always put -qu' on 'IH as if it were needed to mean beautiful. It isn't.
Some days ago I asked how I could say in Klingon "embellish" with the meaning of making something beautiful more beautiful, rather than making something that isn't beautiful, beautiful. You proposed *'IHqu'choHmoH*, but maybe it doesn't work in this context. Actually, at first I wanted to speak about decorating our cities, so I wanted to express that our cities are already beautiful, but we make them more beautiful at Christmas (not that they are not beautiful and become beautiful). Then I omitted this part and I only wrote about decorating homes. Probably, speaking about homes, *'IHchoHmoH* would have been enough?
2. I wanted to use *'eSpanya''e'* as topic, but then I couldn't decide where I should place it. It's a noun with a Type 5 suffix. Time expressions come first. So I placed it after the time expression. However, my tendency was to say it at the beginning, before the time expression. Would that be right / possible?
(...)
Your tendency is being informed by your native language, which works differently than Klingon. Klingon word order does not always feel natural, because none of us are native speakers.
Yes, I knew that's a tendency in Spanish or other languages, but I didn't know how it would be in Klingon. Thank you for your advice regarding this matter!
On 11/23/2021 3:08 PM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
If 'IH is be beautiful, then 'IHqu' would be something like be incredibly gorgeous. Is this perhaps an exaggeration? I've noticed that people seem to always put -qu' on 'IH as if it were needed to mean beautiful. It isn't. Some days ago I asked how I could say in Klingon "embellish" with the meaning of making something beautiful more beautiful, rather than making something that isn't beautiful, beautiful. You proposed *'IHqu'choHmoH*, but maybe it doesn't work in this context. Actually, at first I wanted to speak about decorating our cities, so I wanted to express that our cities are already beautiful, but we make them more beautiful at Christmas (not that they are not beautiful and become beautiful). Then I omitted this part and I only wrote about decorating homes. Probably, speaking about homes, *'IHchoHmoH* would have been enough?
If you want to talk about them becoming beautiful, use *'IHchoHmoH.*//If you want to talk about them becoming even more beautiful, or becoming stunning, use *'IHqu'choHmoH.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Some days ago I asked how I could say in Klingon "embellish" with the meaning of making something beautiful more beautiful, rather than making something that isn't beautiful, beautiful. You proposed *'IHqu'choHmoH*, but maybe it doesn't work in this context. Actually, at first I wanted to speak about decorating our cities, so I wanted to express that our cities are already beautiful, but we make them more beautiful at Christmas (not that they are not beautiful and become beautiful). Then I omitted this part and I only wrote about decorating homes. Probably, speaking about homes, *'IHchoHmoH* would have been enough? If you want to talk about them becoming beautiful, use 'IHchoHmoH. If you want to talk about them becoming even more beautiful, or becoming stunning, use 'IHqu'choHmoH.
Ok, understood! Thank you!
participants (8)
-
Alan Anderson -
De'vID -
DloraH -
Lieven L. Litaer -
luis.chaparro＠web.de -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin